Of the twelve regulars (those who, at one time or another, appeared in the main credits, including Tara [for Seeing Red), only two don’t have a thread of their own (well Cordy and Angel have to share a thread, but still). Namely, Riley and Oz, and so I thought I’d remedy that.

Oh, and I’m posting them in order of preference. Yeah, I’m the rare person who prefers Riley of the two. In fact, when I realized I’d have to push one of the posts back until after I hit Fanatic, it was no question that it'd be Ozzie who would have to wait for post 1001.

I should say that I wasn’t always a Finn-atic. I bought into the idea that Riley was boring, but that’s more on the Initiative plot than the character. And yeah, some of Marc Blucas’s acting didn’t help, but I don’t hold Boreanaz’s S1 woodenness against the Angel character, so fair’s fair. Nowadays, I’ve learned to appreciate Riley for what he is, and I don’t simply mean for not being a selfish mass-murdering corpse that wants to make Buffy’s decisions for her, whether she likes them or not. (I don’t like vampires; I’m gonna take a stand and say they’re not good.)

No, Riley is, pure and simple, a Good Guy. He’s not a stereotype, he’s not a Marty Stu (it’s interesting that of the two characters, I find “Captain Cardboard” less cardboard than the “cool werewolf guitarist”), he’s a guy who’s fundamentally decent, but not an independent thinker. In essence, he’s what the Council wishes Buffy was: a stalwart heroic type who works well within a support structure. Military, school, even the family we never see but which Riley clearly idealizes, this is a man who has found his place in the world…and then a girl comes along, and turns it upside down, and challenges everything he thought he knew, just as in many a great romance. (And making a nice thematic contrast to Angel, who was completely adrift and found his purpose in Buffy…which was probably a mistake, as the Mayor says.)

I love Riley for being so protective of Willow throughout The Initiative, for teasing Giles about the chick-pit, for the non-massage he gives Buffy because he doesn’t want to embarrass Xander in The Replacement. I love his dry sense of humor (“Yeah, that’s pretty much the plan.”, the line I alluded to in the thread title, his saying he would be going “la-la, we’re on our way to Xander’s”), and I love his geeky side (Willow had him totally nailed as “Cowboy Guy” in her dream, although pillow-fort-building Riley in Buffy’s dream is spot on, too). I love that he natters incessantly about Buffy (driving Forrest up the wall), that he can’t shoot a basketball worth a damn when he’s in love, and that he’ll only have a Twinkie for breakfast.

Yeah, he’s a big ol’ lug, but he’s a sweetie, and just what Buffy needed after Angel. All in all, I think it would have been better if it had lasted longer (and not just in the “no Spuffy” sense, although that certainly couldn’t hurt). And I do put most (but not all) of the break-up on Buffy rather than him; I think pretty much everything he says in Into the Woods was right, although that doesn’t make the random suck-jobs any less stupid (for Riley, or as a plot device in general)…the game he played with Sandy was interesting, the “addiction” metaphor that followed, lame, IMO.

(Oh and I think the idea that Riley is threatened by Buffy’s strength and hates that she’s the Slayer and tries to get her to be less than she is and therefore doesn’t deserve her, etc., is just blatant fanon, and is not only unsupported in the episodes, but explicitly contradicted in A New Man, among others.)

Here’s to the good guys!

(Btw, I’ve started enjoying Buffy/Riley vids…wow, it’s so weird watching vids of a couple that has this much smoochy footage [and more!] to pick from. I’m used to Willow/Xander [four kisses, counting the Wishverse one] or Giles/Jenny [two kisses], to say nothing of UC couples like Buffy/Faith [two kisses, both on the forehead] or Buffy/Willow [one kiss, on the top of the head]…I think WTWTA pretty much beats the combined total of all of them.)

Ooh - shiny new topic!

Well, I suppose my UO here is that I wasn't really involved in any of Buffy's relationships. I believed Bangel, and it worked on a narrative level - but on a day-to-day basis I often found it pretty dull. Spuffy was wrong beyond belief and Parker (Puffy?) ... eugh! The only one which completely captivated me was Bangelus, which was hardly an exemplar of a healthy relationship. Which leaves Briley ...

I didn't mind Riley. Sure he was a bit dull, but then for Buffy BFs that's par for the course for me, and at least he seemed to make Buffy happy most of the time. Happy Buffy makes for a happy viewer here. Marc Blucas isn't the greatest actor to have graced the series (why oh why wasn't it Christian Kane ...?) but he was very good as a straight-faced comedian and in some scenes - I'm thinking with Willow in The Initiative - I really enjoyed him. His S5 arc was bizarre and IMO they seemed to be covering it purely to isolate Buffy later in the season. So a resounding two cheers for Riley from me!

I much prefer Riley before he got together with Buffy and nothing will ever convince me that he shouldn't have got together with Willow. Much, much better Chemsistry with AH then SMG.

I do have considerable love for Season Four Riley, but I think the character definitely declined towards the end of his run on Season Five, especially the last half dozen episodes. But that's the only stage that I felt dislike for him, so I'd say overall I was quite fond of him. But I'm with you Its Amazing, I liked Riley more than I liked Oz.



Plus, then we could have had Buffy/Tara! WB would have had an aneurysm.



I'm not sure about the acting talents of the two, but I don't think Christian Kane would have made as good a Riley. He I don't think he could carry off "cornfed Iowa boy" as well as Marc Blucas, plus, he was too short. But then I support for Marc Blucas, because I don't think he could've done more with what they gave him, and there were no moments where his acting brought me physical pain (Season One David Boreanaz, I'm looking at you).

Oh, we'd just have had a corn-fed Okie boy. Or ... whatever they grow in Oklahoma. Dust?

I'm not a Riley-supporter by any means, though I have mellowed with the years, because for me, it all boils down to acting. Yes, Blucas was perfect for the role because he essentially was the role -- it's like hiring Jimmy Stewart to play a decent, shy, Midwestern guy. The theory goes that he doesn't even need to act because the actor is essentially identical to the character they're playing. The problem is that you still have to act! Acting is an active process! Jimmy Stewart played lots of sweet, decent guys in his movies, and he always did wonderfully in conveying warmth and sincerity. And when he was cast as ambiguously dark men with twisted psyches, as in his Hitchcock roles (see especially Vertigo and Rope), he was magnificent still. That's because Jimmy Stewart was a great actor. But while Blucas is perfect for Riley because he himself is a corn-fed Midwesterner, his acting skills were just relentlessly mediocre. I would much prefer a more proficient actor like Kane in the role than an actor like Blucas, who would be perfect if he had any onscreen confidence.

Riley is one of those aspects of the show I like in theory -- supply Buffy with a normal bf -- than in execution. Had he been played by a good actor, one with some real skills and warmth, I think I could have liked him. Riley is the equivalent of Aiden from Sex and the City: the nice guy boyfriend who follows the disastrous boyfriend. Only John Corbett can act, had chemistry with his leading lady and had better material to work with overall.

I don't think it's entirely because he followed the Buffy/Angel romance that he's so disliked. I myself never really invested in the B/A melo-drama-fest, so I have no innate prejudice when his character was introduced. He bored the pants off me all by himself. Heck, I was far, far more invested in Willow/Oz and later on welcomed Willow's relationship with Tara without problem. Something about Riley just gets up my nose.

I liked Riley too. I guess he was boring compared to Buffy's other love interests. But, all things considered, that was kind of a good thing in some ways.



That's exactly how I felt. After all Buffy went through, I liked the idea of her having a nice, normal, stable guy with no built-in angst. (That we knew of at the start.) A guy who would (and could, not being a creature of the night and all) treat her right and give her the sorts of things people want from a relationship. (Especially after what Parker did to her.) And Riley seemed like that guy.



I don't buy this either. I don't think Riley wanted to weaken Buffy so she'd be on his level. He desperately wanted to somehow rise to her level, strength-wise at least, because he was half convinced she couldn't really love a normal guy. But he couldn't, so he got all depressed, and let his insecurities drive him stupid. But I never saw him try to drag Buffy down.

Now, if you want to see I guy try to drag Buffy down to his level, look to season six.

I hate Riley. That said, I think Lady Agnew's comparison of Blucas and Stewart is inspired. Blucas was right for Riley on only the most superficial level, and unlike Stewart, Blucas was woefully unable to bring any depth to the character, which was particularly unfortunate since any depth Riley could've had probably wasn't evident on the page. One can fault the writers for that, or the actor, or both. I'd say both. One counter-example to Blucas/Riley could be JM/Spike, who brought such a level of complexity and even an unexpected joie de vive to the character that Spike's life (or undeath) was extended (some would say far beyond its shelf life).

If Riley had to be inflicted upon us, I agree with Superflyse that he should've been paired with AH. She seemed to bring some life out of him. They could've been adorable.

I'm not a fan, but at least he felt integral to where the overall show was anyway. He wasn't just kludjed in like, say, Kennedy. I felt little one way or the other about him and Buffy until Suckagegate, but I did like him and Xander, him and Willow... really, there were very few Scooby-in-laws who had tangible relationships with any members of the group that they weren't sleeping with. Oz and Xander, for example, began and ended with each other's relationship to Willow. Angel's realtionship with Giles was really all about Angel's relationship to Angelus. The best examples I can think of are Tara/Dawn and Riley/Xander. And maybe Spike/Dawn, except that ended with Spuffy, so it sort of reinforces my point that love interests rarely felt like an integral part of the group as a whole.

Riley was boring, but that's a common trap when writers try to portray someone as "normal". Or, as others have said, it may simply be that Blucas couldn't find anything to bring out of the character other than what was written on the page. He didn't have good chemistry w/ SMG, and did have it w/ AH, which was mentioned in one of the commentaries as a reason for doing away w/ Riley/Willow alone scenes.

As for his vamp-ho suckage, Riley suffered from the same fate as Oz. He, pretty much out of nowhere, engaged in actions that were from beyond left field. I think that Riley had always had the old-fashioned sense of gender roles, but was not wed to it. In The Initiative, the scene on campus where he says tells the little lady he's not going to leave her on the bench by herself, is one example. Still he showed on more than one occasion that he could change, or at least adjust his perceptions. Buffy fascinated him more when he learned of her abilities. However, he still would get out of sorts when she demonstrated it.

So much Word to this. It seemed that any time they wanted to dispose of a male cast member, they'd engage in bizarre, OOC behaviour, act snitty for a bit and then bugger off. Same thing happened to Giles too. I don't know why they couldn't just kill them off like the girls - death would have been preferable to some of the character assassination we saw.

Well, I saw it more like "Ok, I like Buffy but I don't want her to see me battle vampires, or she might scream and run and never see me again because of the trauma". Something like how Nancy reacted at the end of Beneath You.

I dont' hate Riley, I don't like Riley, I'm rather "Meh" about him, though I do think he was good for Buffy. A nice stable boyfriend; Buffy enjoying the "normal" life with him. But Marc was rather "meh". Not horrible acting, but like Loandbehold posted Though at times it seems he was upstaging the show, but only because there are a lot of shows about brawny males either fighting bad guys, evil, or the supernatural. Lot of times he had that "resolve" face as he faces a bad guy. I hoping I'm not saying he was upstaging Buffy, just that the strong, brawny male act is on other shows.

Ok, my favorite Riley moments: Fool for Love, when the Scoobs go with him for patrol and he does the "choo choo" thing and the Scoobs are clueless. Buffy vs. Dracula, the parts he was with Giles going to and in Dracula's Hacienda. In the Initiative (note, I might be wrong about the name of the ep) how Riley keeps asking "Isn't she perculiar?"

I liked Riley, also more than Oz. I liked Blucas and thought he did a fine job.

What I think the problem was with his character, was ME as writers. None of them had any experience as much of anything beyond writing, and that IMHO warped their perception of society and competition and cooperation. In Hollywood, it seems like patronage and social networks combined with craft professionalism work to achieve most projects, among them BtVS. But outside that hot-house cooperation is required, and what stands out with Riley's character is that he was able to both lead and follow, suggest actions and cooperate with others to achieve actions (even when it's not his idea).

Riley is a church-going, compassionate, patriotic, military man who is strongest working in concert with others. For the writers, who by nature of their profession don't cooperate well, that would seem like a weakness. As would his other attributes. For most everyone else IMHO those supposed "weaknesses" would be seen as strengths. Particularly for ME, "compassion" which was seen over and over again as a "weakness" and cruel behavior as a "strength." Riley's compassion IMHO, for example seeing Oz as one of his students not a monster, and going against orders to free him, was his greatest strength. In some ways echoing Buffy's S1 "Nightmares" compassion for the kiddie league player.

Within controlled settings, like the military. Get out into the real world, and we get scenes like the one in Fool for Love where he is obviously not able to integrate into the scooby gang and looks down on their methods of vampire slayage, and also lone wolfs it by making the tomb go boom.

I was never a fan of Riley. I don't find his relationship with Buffy to be the healthiest one she engaged in, simply because they both were such different people and they didn't understand the other's motivations particularly well. They also -both of them- had problems opening up to the other. They had a nice, steady relationship, but I don't think either one of them was able to fulfill the emotional needs of the other, or even able to "get" the other. That, IMO, isn't a particularly good thing.

I did like Riley with Willow, though I didn't really get any romantic relationship vibes off of the two of them. I thought they made good friends, and that they did have an understanding of how the other one worked. I also liked Regular Joe Riley much, much better than Agent Finn. Agent Finn just rubbed me the wrong way, so in episodes like The Initiative where I'm a fan of Riley, half the time I'm hating on the Agent.

I probably would have swooned if Christian Kane had been Riley, though I do think he wouldn't have been anywhere near the same character; and if Marc Blucas' Riley was who they were going for, that would definitely be a problem. My main problem with Riley, aside from finding him at times to be a condescending goof -a hard combination to pull off effectively- was that I sort of saw him as Dr. Oatman describes the energizer bunny in Grosse Point Blank -he has no anima, no passion, and I never got the feeling he had any real drive. I think he was a good man, and that he would have worked well with a more traditional girl. But with the whole show at points pushing him in a "Isn't he the greatest" way, I leaned in the other direction.

And that brings me to another problem with Riley. I can't help but feel that if season 4 as a whole focussed less on him, I would have liked him more. If he had been introduced more slowly and didn't seem to take over Buffy's life and focus to the point where she was engaging in his method of fighting and his organization while neglecting her own, I wouldn't have disliked him nearly as much. But since that fit into one of the themes of the season (a theme that I liked), I suppose poor Riley and I had no real shot at getting along.

I liek Riley. Lift out the vamp-ho storyline and I'd have been fine with him the whole way through. The Hos were dumb but they were nothing more than a device used to help him leave the show. Riley is probably the only one of Buffy's others that I actually like with her (or at all in some cases).

I didn't see Riley's solo mission as him looking down on the Scoobies methods. Yeah, he was annoyed with them. But I think anyone would've been annoyed with them. But his solo raid was about his insecurities driving him stupid (as stated above). I saw it as Riley being reckless, and trying to prove that he was still good enough for Buffy because, see, he killed the vamp who hurt her, and several more, all on his lonesome.

I also saw it as him trying to "measure up," if only in his own minds, to Angel. Maybe not Angel specifically, but the kind of guy he thought Buffy wanted, someone who was strong, dangerous, edgy, etc.

And I do think Buffy and Riley's relationship was the healthiest to start, and had the potential to remain the healthiest Buffy ever had. They screwed it up (I think they both played a part in it's implosion), but people in potentially healthy relationships screw them up all the time. That doesn't mean those relationships wouldn't have been good for them if they'd worked out.

I still feel as if Riley believed his methods were best, when the gang had years of experience that eating potato chips and discussing the problems of the day didn't put a kink in their slaying -and least no more of a kink than their slaying would normally have anyway without Buffy present. I can't see getting annoyed with them for not knowing what specific hand signals they've never been taught mean, or for not getting the whole "be quiet and sneaky" routine when that isn't how they've ever rolled.

I don't know. Maybe if they had both changed their views on the world and how best to interact with it; but without them both giving and both either reevaluting their needs/wants and/or learning how to accept the other one's needs/wants, I don't see them being able to mesh. Which isn't to say that their relationship had to mesh to be worthwhile. Some of my favorite tv relationships are the ones who didn't make it for some reason or another but that explored or allowed growth in the characters. With Riley and Buffy, I definitely thought it was the most normal relationship Buffy had ever had, but I don't equate normal necessarily with healthiest. And really, for Buffy healthiest relationship needs to be graded on a sharp curve!

Well, that whole scene was irritating because it really made the Scoobies look like the Keystone Cops of the Slayworld. Yeah, the Scoobies would gab about their personal issues and didn't run around with camaflauge referring to demons as "hostiles." But they were always alert, dressed in mostly in Slay-appropriate clothes, and just didn't act like idiots. This was especially true when Buffy wasn't there. When Buffy was there, the Scoobies did bring marshamallows and were much more casual. However as Anne, Bargaining, Listening to Fear, Killed by Death, Ted, and DMP will attest- when Buffy's not there the Scoobies are extra-careful, serious, and professional. I think the Scoobies *did* look ridiculous in FFL, and as is the case with S5-7, I have no one but the writers to blame (particularly since they showed the Scoobies being uber-serious in Listening to Fear and Bargaining).

Although, in all those previous instances they didn't have a witch capable of telekinetic staking and setting things on fire with a word. And Riley was nearby with his weapons to help out.

I actually think it's a good idea what the Scoobies were doing. They acted normal so the vamps wouldn't get suspicious then the vamps ger surprised and dusted.

Exactly. And then you only get the demons who want to eat you.

****AtS Spoilers****


Instead of getting some poor demon just trying to enjoy his Big Gulp *sobs*.


***AtS Spoilers Done****

Only that's not what they were doing. There was no sense they were acting uber casual to lure out the vampires. (Or wouldn't Riley have known that's what they were doing?) They were just acting extremely reckless and careless with no real motivation behind it. Of course, the writers were exagerating it because they wanted Riley to be annoyed. And I think it was understandable that he was. I mean, I wouldn't have been thinking, "Well, they've been doing this longer than me, so I shouldn't question why their stomping around, talking loud, and chomping on snacks. I should just accept that they know what they are doing." I would've been thinking, "Shut the hell up!"

Also, I don't get this idea that, because the Scoobs had been at it for so long, and had managed not to get killed, everyone should bow to their unconventional methods and not question them in any way. It's not like they all had some strange, strategical genius that had kept them alive for so long. A lot of times, it was blind luck. Or Buffy. Or Angel. Or...you get the idea. And I certainly don't think it's out of line for someone to question (and be annoyed by) something the Scoobs do that doesn't make sense to them.

Au contraire, the motivation was very clear - to make the Scoobs look goofy and Riley pesky. Oh, you mean character motivation. Sorry, we don't do consistency in the Dawnverse. Maybe a wizard did it!

I agree, but I also feel the same way about Riley's conventional methods. Riley comes off just as bad to me as the scoobs do to some because he (a) seems to feel his sneak and choo-choo motion is inherently superior, and (b) didn't bother to explain the things like the choo-choo motion before heading out on the hunt. If you're kind of skulking around, attempting to be inconspicuous, and your team is walking behind you munching on potato chips, obviously there has been a massive communication breakdown. I would understand Riley's irritation more if there had been a line of "We went over this" or "I explained the choo-choo motion". Since he hadn't, it seemed as though Riley had just expected the gang to not only do things his way, but to have some sort of inherent knowledge of what his way entailed.

Frankly, I think there are pluses and minuses to both systems, and I don't think one is necessarily better than the other. I don't think everything in life has to be hierarchical, with someone's method being always better than someone else's. Riley's military stealth moves work for him. The scoobs' unconventional methods work for them. But the feeling I get from Riley in that scene, a feeling that corresponds to how I see Riley in other scenes, is that his way is right one and the scoobs way holds no merit. I don't believe that to be the case.

I didn't say it was somethign they'd planned out, just something they were doing. They may have just fallen into thier default mode or just not thought to discuss it with Riley. Buffy herself was rarely stealthy, often chatting with whomever was around or agueing with them. Riley's style was just too different to realize how usefull thier behavior could be.

But how do the "methods" they were using in this episode work for them, exactly?

This is how it usually works. Buffy and the gang are walking through the cemetery, chatting. Some vamps, or other minor beasties, attack. (Often catching them completely unawares.) Buffy, being the Slayer, kicks their butts. Sometimes, the rest of the gang helps. But, often, she ends having to finish off her baddie fast so she can hurry over and save one of the Scoobs from another baddie.

Now, it's worked for them in the sense that, against all odds, none of them have died. But it's not because they did anything special in particular. And, that night, Buffy wasn't there. Which you'd think would make them a tad more cautious.

Oh, I'd like to add that I think Riley was a bit over-the-top (and kinda silly-lookin') with all the covert stuff. However, under the circumstances, I'd take someone acting like him over someone crunching on chips.

I liked him too. He wasn't exactly excitement central but at least did genuinely respect Buffy and that's something Spike was never really capable of doing.

Here's hoping he factors in the S8 comics.

Of course, the plot-contrivance of Xander remembering his military training from "Halloween" wasn't remembered in this ep. Though, yes, I do remember one ep. where he tries to assemble or use a gun and he says he's forgetting his military training.

Or maybe the Scoobs were trying to be silly until crunch time. I blame the writers on their heavy-handleness. Or ham-fistiveness.

A reply to some things mentioned here, and some things in the Girls & Boys thread, while encompassing both Riley and the B/R 'ship (and Xander's military knowledge in S4), seems to have mostly wound up being about my displeasure with the Scooby dynamic as portrayed in Fool for Love/Shadow, and thus will go in the S5 thread.

Interesting discussion. I've always *wanted* to like Riley, if only because it would make me love S4 even more than I do already. In real life he's someone I'd probably be mildly fond of, albeit not someone I'd 'click' with.

However, he just seems so bland and undefined as compared to the other vibrant characters who populate the Buffyverse. As compared to most of the other significant others (Angel, Spike, Oz, Anya, Tara etc.), I just find him such a dull and under-developed character. I happen to hate Anya, but at least she was a distinctive character. If asked to assign more than two adjectives to Riley, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to do it. And even the two traits I do associate with him ('nice' and 'has a somewhat sheltered, rigid view of the world') apply to a good 75% of people I know.

Worst of all, I just didn't see any connection or chemistry between Riley and Buffy. We were *told*, rather clunkily at times, that they had strong feelings for each other and knew each other well, but I never really saw or felt that. With both Buffy-Angel and Buffy-Spike (despite my personal dislike of Spuffy) I at least had the genuine sense that they clicked and somehow 'got' each other. Riley and Buffy always seemed like a couple who would go on a few dates and then conclude that the other was 'a great person' whom they just didn't click with. And if the show had embraced the idea of a Buffyverse relationship that was actually supposed to be casual rather than everyone always being either single or in a 'I think this may be THE ONE!' relationship, I probably would have had a much higher tolerance. But having to buy that they had this supposedly great love was just too hard for me to swallow.

I don't dislike Riley like I do Faith and Anya, but he's definitely the Buffy character most likely to put me to sleep.

My response seems to be pure relationship talk, so over to the Girls and Boys thread I go.

While I like Biley I agree they didn't really click as a couple. Too bad they didn't let him interact with the other Scoobies more often, maybe swap love interests so they can all grow as people.

I believe that would be the old dodge of, "Whoops, can't let him interact with other people, as people might notice that chemistry with girlfriend is inferior to that with any other member of cast!" (See also: Maclay, T.)

Which sucks since that might have actually gotten people to actually like Riley and thus be more willing to accept him as a love interest for the Buffster.

I'd have loved that. Back in the highschool days, all the cast were caught in a complex web of relationships, and the links between any two individuals would have a complex history behind them. So Giles and Cordy could share snark in the library, Oz and Xander could bond over kryptonite, Jenny and Willow could start a touching mentor/mentee relationship. And around them were a plethora of recurrent friends and foes: Harmony, Larry, Amy, Devon, Jonathan - all forming a rich and fully-populated universe. But from S4 onwards that ends. Everyone is isolated in their 'ships, never let out to play with the rest of the cast. Riley can't be anything but studly but sensitive boyfriend. Tara must be Willow's quirky wiccan crush, and nothing else. Even extrovert Anya's only allowed out as comic relief. And all the while, the rest of the world slowly fades away.

Unless they're brought back just to destroy them. Poor Amy, at least riley got to have a happy ending. Asuming he wasn't ripped to pieces off screen.

Well, he did have a stupid scar and bad hair in his last appearance. (And don't get me started on Sam…)

Too bad tv has to havee "great, exciting love", not just simple, "I like being with him/her" love. When you watch soup operas, people are always falling in love with someone else after spending 1/2 the season trying to overcome obsticles to get with the person they have now.

Buffy with Riley was boring, but Riley looked sincere. Just not passionate.

To be fair, they did often show friendly, comfortable love on the show. Willoz and Tallow were both pairings rooted in friendship, and you could argue the same for Xander's 'ships. It just seemed to be Buffy who was a sucker for melodrama ...

To be fair, in the Biley relationship it seemed to be Riley who was the sucker for the melodrama. He was the one who was upset that Buffy didn't cry over him as much as she did Angel, and that every day wasn't the end of the world.

I don't mourn the loss of the "I like him/her" kind of love between Buffy and Riley, because unlike Oz and Willow or Willow and Tara or even Xander and Anya, I didn't think that they meshed. They had very different needs that were not being met within that relationship, so it made sense that it would not last.

From the first time I saw Riley in Season Four, I liked him. I've always liked him. He had a quirky personality behind the so-called "bland" facade. It's a shame that many had failed to notice this. Did I think he was right for Buffy? No. It's not because he was never "dark" enough for her. That whole schmiel about only someone like Angel or Spike would be dark enough to satisfy or understand Buffy, because they were the very beings that she fought is a lot of nonsense to me. I believe that Riley had the potential to be a very dark person. Look at how dark Willow, Xander and Warren became in Season Six. This is a guy who had volunteered to become a demon hunter for the Army. Nor have I ever viewed him as being normal. But I do not believe that he was the right person for Buffy. One, I think that she had used him as someone with whom she could have a "normal" relationship. Two, I think that Riley was the rebound guy and by early Season Five, he probably suspected it. Three, both Riley and Buffy had similar personalities. Both were reserved, yet aggressive personalities. Quite simply, they were too similar to each other. And to me, this symbolized a lack of balance in their relationship. I've also had similar feelings about Willow's relationships with Oz and Tara.

Also, I never understood why Buffy had treated Riley like china, after he had lost his superstrength in "Out of My Mind". Despite what had happened to him in that episode, Riley was still an experienced demon hunter/fighter. I really saw no reason why she had believed that the Scoobies would be able to protect him. And the fact that she had never bothered to confide in him whenever she was troubled over Joyce's medical problems or Glory did not help. Yet, Riley did not help the relationship with his actions. Like Buffy, he had failed to confide in her about his own problems. I think that his lack of communication had contributed to the relationship's breakdown as much as Buffy's actions. And his decision to go to vamp whores was rather stupid.

Someone named Shadowkat once criticized Riley for failing to wait for Buffy or give her another chance at the end of "Into the Woods". Personally, I feel that he had done the right thing. He and Buffy never really had a chance as a couple. Buffy became involved with him for the wrong reasons. Riley tried to maintain the relationship for the wrong reasons and had failed to tell Buffy about his fears regarding her. And he had allowed himself to wrap his identity over her . . . just as Spike would do in Season Six. However, the main reason why I believe that he had done the right thing is that he had been right about Buffy. She was never in love with him. Not really.

Well, they seemed perfectly happy at the end of S4. I think it's more the case that the fandom never took to him and they had to hastily write him off the show. In a manner that bore no resemblance to the initially established character. Buffy's cry of disbelief when she beheld him getting his happy in a vampire brothel was definitely echoed here!

I don't think that they ever had a chance . . . considering Buffy's reasons for dating him.

Well, Buffy was first attracted to Riley because he was cute and gentlemanly and had hunky arms. A touch shallow, perhaps - but many successful relationships have sprung from less profound roots.

I disagree. Even if he felt like they had to break up, surely there's a better way then leaving her on the same night he's cheated on her via Helicopter of Mystery to an unknown country where she can't possibly contact him.

I think there two separate issues there. I doubt Buffy thought the scoobs would protect him; rather, she seemed to worry that even without his superstrength he'd try to Joe Commando it -which he did do in Fool for Love. She seemed to be more concerned with him overexcerting himself and stretching beyond his physical means during demon fighting than anything else. She didn't have that worry with the rest of the gang because none of them ever had the experience of being superstrong, and thus they understood their limitations. None of them were keen on patrolling alone, because they seemed to understand the dangers better. It wasn't clear that Riley did, or at the very least, it wasn't clear to Buffy that Riley did. So Buffy would want him to patrol in the gang because more people involved in the fight theoretically means more chance that everyone makes it out alive.

And he was successful. I still think that Buffy had unecessarily overprotected Riley. And I guess that I cannot help but think that her insistence that the Scoobies join him to hunt down that vampire seemed ridiculous to me, considering his experience with demon hunting.




I agree that perhaps Riley's way of leaving Buffy was crappy. But I do believe that in the end, he was right to leave her.

I disagree. Though Riley was a reasonably experienced demon hunter, he didn't have any demon/slayer advantages like super strength, speed, reflexes and agility. He was in fact at considerable disadvantage. Buffy herself was not too proud to frequently take friends patrolling with her, which was shown to be quite helpful in several episodes, including Fool For Love.

I agree with Zeechay. He was successful in one situation. But patrolling alone, before the vampires had actually gathered in a central location for easy blowing up? There are hundreds of ways to be jumped, overpowered, or knocked unconscious. Even all of Riley's military training wouldn't necessarily protect or prepare him for fighting a demon some however many times his strength. Also, I think it is important to note that the military itself sent their Initiative guys out in groups to fight, so it wasn't ever that Riley was used to being a lone fighter wolf. Given that, Buffy's insistence that no one aside from herself patrol alone looks less and less ridiculous.

Then why didn't Buffy join Riley to hunt down that vampire, herself? Why on earth would she ask the Scoobies - who had less experience than Riley and also lacked demon/slayer advantages? And if the likes of Wes and Charles can become demon hunters without Angel breathing down their necks every waking moment, then I believe that Riley didn't Willow, Xander and Anya. And I also think that Buffy had overexaggerated her concern for Riley . . . or underestimated his experience as a demon hunter.

I'm sorry, but I think that Buffy was wrong to insist that the Scoobies accompany Riley . . . as the episode eventually proved.

Because she had just been skewered and thus not up for fighting? And being skewered and seeing her own less than twinkie-level life span probably jolted her into thinking about the mortality of those nearest and dearest to her?

Gunn had a team. And Wes and the others also had a tendency to hunt together. I don't see Buffy exhibiting some concern by asking Riley to take the gang with him is breathing down his neck, especially given that scant episodes prior, Riley was trying to be superman and nearly killing himself to achieve that. If I were Buffy, I would be a bit worried about my boyfriend's recent history of ignoring his body's limitations as well.

I don't think the episode proved Buffy was wrong any more than it proved that the scoobs were idiots or that Riley was inevitably going to down a slippery slope of isolation and self-destruction. Riley did fine in this case when the vampires were all in the nest for the night and he had a bomb. But if he was just generally walking around the cemetery looking for some evil to fight, then he -being only human strength- could be overpowered and killed. Buffy asking Riley to take along the gang doesn't seem unreasonable given that fact, and given the fact that it was just proven to her that even she was in danger of being killed by an ordinary vampire. Since that was the case, it wouldn't really matter how much military training Riley had or how good a demon hunter he was, because Buffy has had more training and is better at the game.