And so Ianto becomes Riley.

Another show, another building.

Marathon Alert:

HDNet is running all 13 episodes of Season 1 on New Years Day (Tuesday), from 10 AM to 11 PM here on the West Coast. I assume they'll all be commercial-free, unedited and uncensored, since that's the way they've been airing the weekly episodes - and, to me, they look great in Hi Def. I've already got my TiFaux set to record "Captain Jack Harkness" at 9 PM. That'll hold me over until the DVDs are out in a month.

Flaregun:
This is what Benjamin Elliott has to say about it in Torchwood This Week:

Today, http://www.radiotimes.com/ has listings as far as Thursday 10 January, so we should have listings for the 13th on Monday (although sometimes they leave some slots blank until nearer the time). If Torchwood isn't listed for the 13th, the 16th is a good bet. It definitely won't be later than the 16th, it's airing before the edited version.

Edited to add: it's also standard BBC trailer policy to say "coming soon" at first and then put the time and date on as they get closer.

Damn! I can't believe the US has a more set time than the UK.

Now, I could swear I'd read back a few weeks ago when Heroes was wrapping up its current season on BBC2 that the BBC had announced that S2 of Torchwood would be airing in Heroes' time slot, which was Wednesdays at 9. In fact, I thought that was the whole point of that goofy little promo that I linked to a couple of weeks ago that juxtoposed a scene from Heroes and a scene from Torchwood so that it kind of seemed like Peter Petrelli and Cap'n Jack were talking on the phone to each other. (BTW, I got the link to that YouTube clip of the promo from the UK thread, and after I posted it here there was a comment or two on the UK thread accusing someone of pulling a fast one, that that was just some crude fan-made clip and not a genuine BBC promo. When I looked at it again I was inclined to agree as it did seem a little amateurish, but I've since seen the clip on some offical BBC site and so now feel pretty sure it's genuine after all).

Nope, the BBC has not yet announced anywhere what the airdate will be. The Heroes / Torchwood promo certainly indicates that Torchwood will be taking over that slot, but it was not explicitely stated.

It is 99.99999% certain it will start on January 16 at 9 pm based on all the evidence (including the fact that Digiguide updated their listing this week to give that slot to Torchwood). But the BBC is still playing coy about stating it themselves for whatever reason.

All I know is that I cannot wait a second longer... Thank God someone with more computer saaviness than I added the Doctor Who Christmas special or else I would be going mad with anticipation. That at least got me over the hump, I can now survive till Torchwood 2 starts in January.. All I need is a little time travelling now and then and Ill be fine.. lol.. Ok.. Im officially a great big giant nerd now.. so what.. Ive been reading spoilers from the bbc america message boards (wont stop me from watching of course), cuz three weeks is a long time to wait.. and all i can say is that with Doctor Who starting again in March, and Torchwood in January.. and my birthday in february.. the first three months of 2008 are gonna totally rock!.. lol

If you had been a Doctor Who fan in 1989 you would have had to wait 7 years for a one-off TV Movie and then another 9 years for the return of the series.

Wow, I can't imagine that.

I was very surprised BBCA is showing season 2 so soon after season 1 ended. Does anyone know if season 3 has started production yet? Otherwise, I'm sure we'll be waiting a year or more for it here.

Just saw "They Keep Killing Susie". As much as I loved the "I still have the stopwatch" scene, it is weird, that Ianto went from hating Jack 4 episodes ago and saying that if he had a chance to let Jack die, he'd take it - to sleeping with him.

And every episode makes me hate Gwen more. Totally petty and catty -her lack of chin was really bugging me whenever they showed her from the side. Between her and Owen in "Greeks Bearing Gifts", I don't know how Tosh stopped herself from belting them both in the head with something heavy.

Series 3 hasn't been commissioned yet - if it is commissioned it is supposed to start filming in the summer of 2008. It takes about 7 months to film one series of TW. So - UK airdate probably something like early Spring 2009.

Series 2 just finished filming in late November and series 3 has not yet been commissioned. But there have been rumors for months about writers being lined up for a third series and both John Barrowman and Gareth David-Lloyd have let it slip to fans that they expect to start filming a third series in summer 2008. Unless series 2 is a massive failure in the ratings (not likely, but always possible), a third series is a given. But it probably won't air anywhere until January 2009 at the earliest.

BBCA has gone on record as hoping to start showing programs more quickly after they air in the UK. They will be showing Torchwood series 2 only ten days behind its being shown in the UK. That appears to be a sign of things to come for other shows as well.



I never saw that comment as being anything other than a heat of the moment thing and thought that it was clear by at least the very next episode, Small Worlds, that there was no residual bitterness between them.

Ahh...another kindred spirit lilith1930! lol... Gwen is my least favourite character. I'm hoping that S2 changes my opinion of Gwen. I'd like to see her drop the 'sanctimonious' attitude...because really, when it comes right down to it...she's just as much of a shitty person as the rest of the team. And please...no Jack/Gwen ship...that would just ruin the show for me.

Tell me about it. I grew up watching it starting in the 70's Tom Baker era, it aired on our local PBS station first at 5PM then later at 11PM. It was definately a looooong gap from old Who to new but it was worth the wait.

That and he did let him die when Owen shot him 4 episodes later. Not that it matter much at that point on their relationship but he did keep that promise which officially make them the most complex Sci-fi couple ever.

A lot of fans, including me, want to believe that there's a sexual relationship between Jack and Ianto. They are "sleeping" together, they are doing something inventively sexual with a stopwatch, etc. But I have to maintain that aside from the "so glad you aren't dead after all" kiss at the end of the final episode, there is no evidence whatsoever shown onscreen that the two of them have a romantic relationship or a sexual relationship of any kind. Owen seems to think that Ianto is fantasizing about Jack, for some reason, but that's all he seems to know as well. I hope we get something conclusive in the new season, but at this point it's all fan fic.

Owen said to Ianto's face that he was no more than a tea boy and Jack's occasional shag. So he seems to think that Jack and Ianto are "shagging".

They manage their subtext better than "Heroes" that's for sure, of course no one parades a "World's greatest dad" apron in front of the other but the evidence is there and they do share a level of intimacy that was obvious enough for Owen; regular friends don't hug or look at each other the way those two do - nor they are allowed back on each other's lives after hiding a cybergirlfriend in the basement - so the kiss simply validated what it was only subtext at that point. The only thing I doubt was that Jack would care about his significant other as much as his significant other seemed to care about him but he did kiss him as only the heroe kisses the girl at the end of the movie so a "part time shag" he ain't. Boy or girl you can't get any more recognition from the one you're with.

*ETA:
And you better believe it.

Based on Jack's character I believe the window on a kissing-only relationship before sex happens would be about an hour at the most. Since that clearly wasn't the first kiss he and Ianto have shared, I feel pretty safe in assuming that they'd already rounded home plate at some point.

I wouldn't agree that Ianto let Jack die in that moment. He didn't stop Owen from shooting because he he didn't realize it was going to happen. After it happened and he went over to Jack's body, it seemed to me as if Jack was already dead.

Jack and Ianto's relationship being sexual is accepted as canon throughout fandom based on the stopwatch scene and the kiss. Not just by shippers but even by people who hate the idea of the two of them together. The notion that it is true love is a fanfic notion, but I consider it fact that they have been having sex.

Ianto: Jack needs me.
Owen: In your dreams, Ianto. Your sad wet dreams where you're his part-time shag, maybe.

Owen seems to think Ianto is fantasizing something about Jack, not that they are actually having a shag, part time or otherwise.

I know it's canon, but I don't see anything of it, is what I'm saying. I hope they make it explicit in future episodes. That kiss was fine, but happened after Ianto's attempted handshake, so I'm not convinced by that at all. I think it's really interesting how much wish fulfillment has gone on in this area. Using the expression "significant other" is particularly fanciful, IMHO.

If only, unfortunately like on the X-files sometimes less is more and just like half of America jumped off their seats screaming "They did it!" at the end of the "All the good things" episode when Scully came out of the bathroom and we realized there's no way she could've passed the unmade bed where Mulder was lying unless something had happened after they fell asleep on the couch a couple of hours ago, the audience realized something odd was going on the minute Ianto asked "Jack" what to put on an autopsy report after they decided to send the rest home so they could met 10 minutes after there's no more work to be done. There's a subtlety there much appreciated for us former Jack/Gwen shippers that in no way changes the blatant implication that those two are no longer platonic.

I mean, I know this is Sci-fi and all but a same sex couple for the male lead? That's huge! And we do need some time to adjust not only to the kissing but the fact that they can be romantic to one another and it works. This is ground breaking because aside Farscape or the X-files, no one has done romance right on a Sci-fi show before, much less with an alternative couple and I wonder if the "Torchwood"'s creators realizes what this really mean for an American audience and downplay it accordingly.

I agree, absolutely. And it wouldn't surprise me if they keep writing this show in such a way that whoever wants to be oblivious to Jack/Ianto can easily do so, while those of us who want to see a romance between them will also be able to do so, based on little hints dropped here and there. Jack's legendary sexual exploits lend credence to both perspectives. Personally I would like to see them elevate the subtext to text. But yes, you are right, it would be huge and risky. I hope they take that risk at some point and go for it. I thought the Captain Jack Harkness episode was brilliant. But I don't expect them to make an alien 'queer as folk' show, either (much as I'd love to see that!), and alienate mainstream segments of their audience.

In the link to the review of episode 1 of season 2 that someone linked to earlier (around page 95, I think?) the reviewer says that Jack and Ianto's relationship is much more explicit, and seems to be becoming a cornerstone of the series (I'm paraphrasing there, can't remember the exact term). So that all sounds good to me, like it's becoming canon.

I thought about it but I don't see where Ianto had a chance to save Jack. They all looked shocked at the gunfire, even Owen. He had to shoot Jack several times for plot reasons but I fanwank it as panic on his part. Ianto also went over to Jack.

As for Ianto's sudden change of feelings towards Jack, we don't know how much time passed in the show since Jack killed his girlfriend. All we know is that 3 months have passed since the first episode cuz that's how long Susie's been dead. If you read the blogs on the BBCA site Ianto was suspended for a month, Countrycide was his first time back.

I understand not including the blogs since it should all be on the show but serve as patches. Also, they're funny.

Ianto didn't actually change his feelings towards Jack anyways. In the very first scene when Jack first introduces him to Gwen and the audience, Jack lists his tasks then comments that he looks great in a suit. Ianto could interpret the comment as "Oh, isn't he prim and proper." Or "Yes he always wears a spiffy suit to empty trash." Those are not at all illegal to say straight out even.
Ianto interprets the comment (as it was surely intended) sexually. "Careful sir, that's harrassment." Of course, Ianto is smiling a little and clearly looking forward to any and all future sexual harrassment.
How a character is introduced is very important, this shows both that Jack flirts with men and that this particular man likes it.
Jack frequently compliments Ianto and acts in a playful way we don't see him acting with anyone else. In "Cyberwoman" Jack playfully begs Ianto to "work his coffee magic" while putting his hands together and making a begging face. Later while Gwen and Owen are looking for Ianto, Jack makes a comment about wanting to hear those lovely long vowels of his again. He never says anything like that to Gwen who also has a Welsh accent.
That whole episode seemed to focus down to a personal fight between the two of them.
It's more noticeable that Ianto goes from paralysed with grief and emotional pain in Greeks Bearing Gifts to perky and playful in the very next episode. Not that much time could have passed. Between playing with the stopwatch and calling out "cool" names for items he was positively giddy in a Ianto-esque way. So something has changed.

Sending everyone home early seems inevitable since they've all been up all night and nothing's happening now. But they could have written it so Jack mentions it in a different contex. Like having him tell everyone to go home while he and Ianto finish up, at the start of the scene. Instead, it comes up after some innuendo filled discussion of fun with stop watches. Just before Jack heads up to his office with a very eager look on his face and a reminder to Ianto to be there in 10 minutes.
So the two of them being alone is underlined.
Any ideas of what really fun nonsexual activities they needed to be alone for?

Well, in "Greeks," Mary did explain that a lot of the thoughts/emotions Tosh was hearing were buried so deep the people experiencing them weren't completely aware of them -- "The stuff you've been hearing, it's so deep, so personal - stuff they're not even aware they're thinking." So it's quite possible that Ianto was suppressing those really dark thoughts and, on the surface, just getting on with his life. Also, at the end of the episode, Tosh hears two additional thoughts by Ianto. First, he thinks "Please, God, not again," which is certainly understandable because there are a lot of parallels there between Lisa and Mary. Then, while Owen is all "He's just going to let her go," Ianto is thinking that Jack's bluffing about giving Mary the transporter. He also thinks that Jack's plan might work, which suggests that he is trusting Jack in that moment. And maybe when Ianto saw what Jack was willing to do to protect his team and the planet in a way that wasn't personal to him -- Jack sent Mary to the center of the *sun* -- perhaps Ianto was better able to put what happened to Lisa in perspective.

At any rate, I still like that idea of Russell's, that you can't show every single move these characters make in 45 minutes a week, so there has to be an enormous amount of living going on off-screen. So, while I think S1 was disjointed and suffered a bit based on what they did elect to emphasize in each episode, I can understand what they were trying to do. It just got more than a bit muddled when they chose to focus on Gwen so much that the small bits of scene left for some of the other characters -- Ianto, Tosh and (to some extent) Jack -- were too few and far between to enable the viewers to readily imagine a coherent story unfolding in the background. It sounds like they've addressed many of those issues in S2, particularly the focus on Gwen. Or maybe that's just wishful thinking, but Chibnall himself acknowledged that as a problem, and Gareth in a recent Q & A posted on his Web site mentioned that the upcoming episodes are more ensemble-focused than single character-focused. Here's hoping.

The stopwatch conversation was clearly meant to have sexual overtones. But all it did was give us the implication that something sexual was going to happen. Until we get some sort of confirmation, I agree with Lesbonaut that Jack/Ianto is still mostly sub-text at this point. It is canon that they flirt with one another, and canon that there's some mutual sexual attraction. It is canon that they have kissed at least once (twice if you count the Cyberwoman CPR, which I don't, since one party wasn't really awake for that). Anything more than that is interpretation and inference. There's nothing wrong with either of those, but the fact remains that it is not yet canon that they've slept together or have a relationship of any kind other than co-workers with some serious sexual tension between them.

Personally, I could go either way -- that they've been sleeping with one another for some time or that they're still working up to it. I do think the tentative way Ianto first went for a handshake in the last episode leaves the door wide open for the latter interpretation. When I first saw it, my impression was that this was their first real kiss; that there had been some pretty extreme flirting going on in the past, and that Ianto had started developing feelings for Jack -- so blatantly that Owen had noticed -- but that things hadn't progressed further until Jack finally took the initiative upon coming back from the dead. I also favor that interpretation a little because I want to actually see their relationship develop -- not have it take place almost entirely off screen and in my imagination. But the first scenario has its charms as well. Hopefully the matter will be cleared up one way or another in the coming season.

Gwen treated Owen as her dirty little secret for so long that Owen couldn't help but to acknowledge that was exactly what Ianto was for one Jack Harkness: Why else would he feel entitled to an authority he couldn't possibly have? In Owen's eyes Ianto couldn't mean more than what Owen himself had meant for Gwen or Diane.

Is what Ianto is: he's more significant than Owen is, almost as significant as Estelle was and dare I say slightly more significant than Gwen Cooper shall ever be. Just because he can't be a husband or a boyfriend it doesn't mean that he's less important and I think the kiss reflected that.

Regarding the Stopwatch Incident, according to the BBCA "Captains Log" the security cameras were turned off for 4 hours. And the stop watch was broken. Moving a desk. I guess there could be an innocent explanation. I once broke my class ring "moving" a sofa.

And I would agree if it weren't because they were in public and Owen among all people was in the front row to watch their first PDA so this ended up looking as Ianto grabbing the coat for a tear only it was the Captain grabbing the first person he wanted to kiss after coming back from the dead (and please do not be so emphatic about it). Problem is: that person wasn't Gwen.

Regarding the handshake thing, it makes perfect sense to me that Ianto would be reluctant to put his relationship with Jack on display if it previously had been something that wasn't for the entire team's eyes. Also, just prior to Jack's resurrection, Ianto had chosen to side with the team against Jack, and Jack had selected Gwen -- not Ianto -- to accompany him to his battle with Abbadon. It seems reasonable to conclude that Ianto had no idea where he stood with Jack at that moment and didn't want to presume anything by throwing himself into Jack's arms. And it's pretty hard to ignore the editing of that scene. When the camera cuts away from Jack and Ianto kissing, it goes straight to Owen, the guy who'd only recently questioned the possibility of a relationship between Jack and Ianto.

That does make sense, and works as a reasonable explanation should we find out they've been going at it for months. As I said, I think it could go either way. They've managed to drop enough clues and yet leave things vague enough that I would find multiple interpretations completely believable and satisfying -- no mean feat! I'm very much looking forward to seeing how it all plays out in the next season.

Owen often feels an authority that's not justified by his position. Which is part of the reason I don't much like him. In his remarks to Ianto, my interpretation is that Owen is obviously frustrated and angry, and shouts those things at Ianto simply because he wants to hurt his feelings, and so lashed out in a meanspirited way. Not that he has any inside knowledge of a relationship between Ianto and Jack. On the contrary, I think.

Actually the camera cuts away to Owen after the handshake and hug, but then goes back to Jack and Ianto who are then briefly seen kissing, and then breaks back to Owen again. I think the editing is building up for the most emotional moment of the scene, which is Jack's forgiveness of the man who, among other things, shot him to death--not because it's meant as a comment about Owen's earlier nasty remark to Ianto. Just IMHO.

I'm still iffy on the whole Jack/Ianto thing. I just find it hard to believe that after the whole Lisa debacle, that Ianto would jump into playing hide the stopwatch with Jack. Doesn't make sense.
I was reading the Captain's log on BBCA and there were a few things that made me go hummmmm. One, Jack mentions in the last post that there is one person, who he knows is safe, and should he come around, Jack's bags were packed and he would be gone. Anyone got any ideas about who that might be?
I recommend reading those logs, gives a different perspecive on a few of the episodes, especially about the road side hamburgers the team was eating in Countrycide.

I'd presume that's referring to The Doctor.

Yeah, I have absolutely no doubt about the Doctor being the great love of Jack's life, even though it's far less likely than with Jack/Ianto that they've gone further than some flirting and the one televised kiss.

If I believed that, I would pity Jack so much. The great love of his life being someone who made it clear he will always come second to Rose? Who ran away from him, twice, rather than face him and deal with Jack's immortality, which wasn't even Jack's choice? Who, when he had no choice but to face him, told Jack he was 'wrong'? Who could not work up anything more enthusiastic than "I don't mind if you come with me"?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Doctor is a bad person who mistreated Jack as a matter of course. But it's pretty clear that he's not in love with Jack. Jack is in love with the Doctor and I think he admires and respects him. But I don't think he's the great love of Jack's life by any means.



I've started to wonder recently why everyone comments about how they don't think it makes sense that Ianto got involved with Jack after those events but no one questions Jack getting involved with Ianto.

Hmmm, good point Head, but I guess we all just figure that Jack's such a horndog that he doesn't really think when it comes to sex, he just does. But you would think Jack would have to give some pause to getting involved with Ianto given the Lisa situation.
I somehow doubt that the Dr is Jack's great love either. I am hoping that this will be something they will explore this season.
Anyone know how much stuff got cut out of the BBCA version of TW? Will we be seeing a lot more when the dvd's come out?

Someone compiled a list of all the BBCA edits on their LiveJournal. (And I'm not sure how I feel about being called "Head" :-) Been called worse though.)

Non- Dr. Who watcher: so Jack and the Doctor had a romantic or even just a physical relationship on DW? With the present doctor, or one of the past ones? If so, how explicitly was it stated?

I know the vagaries, I think- Rose was left in an alternate reality, and then he picked up Martha? And Jack was on DW during the Rose episodes?

Nope. It never got to that point. It was indicated in the first series with Chris Eccelston that Jack fancied both the Doctor and Rose and there were a few moments of flirtation between all of them. When they were facing Daleks and Jack knew he was going off to fight a battle that would probably kill him (and did kill him - temporarily), he kissed both Rose and the Doctor on the lips as a goodbye.

Then when Jack rejoined the Doctor, now played by David Tennant, there was a moment when he and Martha commiserated over being in love with someone who didn't even notice, referring to the Doctor. Personally, until that moment I was always of the opinion that Jack loved the Doctor but wasn't in love with him.

But there has never been any onscreen indications that there was a sexual relationship between Jack and the Doctor or that the Doctor returns Jack's feelings, beyond friendship.

I've never been able to decide if, when Jack says to Martha, "You too, huh?" he's saying that he's also in love with the Doctor or that he realized that Rose had been, and was referring to her. The Doctor played it much more cool with Rose in the first season than he did in the second season, when it became more apparent that the love between them was mutual. And Jack had only observed the Doctor with Rose in the first season, not the second.

Ah, thank you. Maybe I should start watching Dr. Who?

lilith, the answer to that is always "Yes"! Doctor Who is excellent.

Yeah, I was there...

Absolutely. He's a very private man; the team didn't know about Lisa for months - perhaps even years - he wouldn't expose himself like that in front of them unless Jack would've been okay with it.

Then why not use Lisa? That's the one he knows it could hurt the most and they've been just talking about her a minute ago so there was no need to drag Jack into the picture unless Owen knew something he wasn't supposed to.

Owen had already stung Ianto with his comments about Lisa not being human and trying to kill them all. Ianto had just brought up the subject of Jack and said "Jack needs me," opening himself up to Owen's hurtful retort. I think it's as simple as that.

lilith, Captain Jack appears in the first season of Doctor Who beginning with the award-winning episode "The Empty Child" and going on to the last ep of the season. If you watch those, and the three final episodes of season 3, you will get the backstory of Captain Jack, and see some of the best of the Doctor as well. Of course, you might prefer to watch all of the Doctor Who episodes in sequence, once you get started. Either way, Enjoy!

snip:

For me, that is not a problem. I get sooooo tired of the cliched male/female lead sexual relationship. It would be most refreshing if the Jack/Ianto resurection kiss a.) grew into a full fledged relationship and b.) lasted over the series of the show.

lilith, I would second that advice about Dr Who. And I say that as someone who had never watched any Dr Who until after I got hooked on Torchwood. And to be honest, when I first ventured onto this thread after discovering TW, and found people engrossed in a complicated Dr Who (I am watching a Dr Who spinoff! Me?) timeline discussion, I almost left. You can literally watch the episodes mentioned and be all caught up. I would further recommend the first episodes of both Season 1, 3 as well as Runaway Bride, so that you will be all caught up on all the Companion backstories.

What you do need to know is that Russell T Davies, DW showrunner, considers Jack the "muscle" on DW. The Doctor and Companion cannot really be seen to be shooting people etc, so thats where our beloved Captain Jack Hotness comes in. Doctor Who is a children's show, that was revived in its current "new series" incarnation by RTD, the creator of Queer as Folk who was a fanboy of the original series.

Series (known in the US as Season) 1 Captain Jack is very different than Torchwood Jack. However, by the end of the Series you have learned a lot about him and how he became immortal. Series 3 Jack is more the Jack we know, AND the events take place when Jack disappears from the Hub at the end of Torchwood Series 1, so its a nice way to get ready for Torchwoods coming new season-and reportedly a bit of changed Jack. The last three episodes of Series 3 are really good-and if you are a Life on Mars fan you OWE it to yourself to see John Simm in those episodes. Also nice modern political allegory if you ask me (sh!).

If you can get your hands on the DVD's, which are pricey, I recommend it. (FYI-You may be surprised that you know a closet DW fan or two if you start asking around. I was!)The extra features are extensive and great; the commentaries and David Tennant's video diaries are worth the price alone-but then I love behind the scenes stuff.

I've fallen behind with my Doctor Who viewing: Is the episode which starts with Captain Jack clinging to the outside of the TARDIS and making it crash the continuation of the ending of the first season in the Hub?

ETA: I guess someone answered my question while I was composing this query. Nevermind.

By "great love of Jack's life" I didn't mean to suggest that they have a romantic future together, or even that the Doctor would be interested in one. But I think it's pretty clear that Jack loves the Doctor, and that those feelings are stronger than any he's had for anyone else given how much he changed himself during his time in the TARDIS and how eager he was to reunite after what appears to be a century or more of intervening time.