Here's the place to continue post-cancellation discussion. The old forum has been archived in Dramas > Read Only Archive.

Trash. Self-indulgent crap. Waste of time. Plus, it killed Deadwood. Oh yes it did, my friends, yes it did...

FineWine, tell me how you really feel. Heh.

I think we have enough shows for a sub-forum for shows with great hype that flamed out like a comet - off the top of my head, I could easily nominate this and Studio 60 just for 2006-7 alone. With this show, though it had moments of great beauty, in the end, it lost me. It's hard to tell where the line is between authorial uniqueness and self-indulgence. In the end, this show ended up over the line into self-indulgence, though I wouldn't mind reading a synopsis of what he planned for the second season, if he had gotten one.

dreamy, I think there's a synopsis in one of the archived threads. Either the David Milch or the Cancellation thread.

FineWine, I think Milch's ADD killed Deadwood.

I will always remember this show for two reasons: 1) It helped to kill Deadwood, yes I believe that and no one will ever change my mind 2) It was the final straw in getting me do drop HBO. Showtime and I are getting along swimmingly. This show was meandering tripe with a great cast.

GoodyGoody, I agree. Along with a host of other problems he has, the poor genius. Yet the fact remains that if the shiny new object that was JFC never materialized, we would've had our fourth season. It would've been shorter, but there would have been some closure at any rate.

I would give my eyeteeth to really know the true scoop and how it/what went down. All we know is the perifery, the edges of the truth.

This show would have worked better if it had stayed in Milch's mind and not on my TV.

I'm still sad to see it go. I wouldn't call it genius, but it definitely wasn't a waste of time, and Butchie Yost is working his way up my list of favorite TV characters.

I'm sad it's been exiled to PH, but it was mystifying, frustrating, and ultimately satisfying while it lasted.

FineWine writes:


But if the fourth season had been anywhere near as meandering and unsatisfying as JFC, would people then wish that it had ended sooner?

That's the thing, I think if Milch himself had reaaaaaaaalllly wanted to continue Deadwood, he would have, come hell or high water. His attention wandered, and to force him to do another season of Deadwood would not have been pretty, for him or for us viewers.

I think that JFC suffered from many outside problems, in addition to the internal ones. It was not a show that should have premiered after the Sopranos juggernaut, or have the "replacement for Deadwood" monkey on its back. JFC is a smaller show, on a much smaller scale than either Deadwood or the Sopranos. It never had a chance to hold up under the weight of what had come before.

However, taken completely on its own, as I'm trying to do right now, its charms are more evident, IMHO.

ETA: grammar counts.

John From Cincinnati dumped out big genius, while HBO just dumps big genius. I think Milch was ahead of his time, again.

Fucking Deadwood. I loved that show more than anything but, Jesus Christ! Jesus Christ! Jesus Christ!! Poor David. Vilified for having the unmitigated gall to write what he wants to (or has to.) Besides, does anyone really know what happened to DW? I tend to think it was HBO and not Milch who killed it. So Milch did what he was told and moved on to something else.


It's not fair! Not fair at all. DW had a great run. Shame they couldn't have just made the movies toute de suite, so Milch (and JFC) didn't have that fucking albatross weighing him down. I don't think I read one entertainment critic who didn't invoke DW, compare JFC to DW, and whine for fuckin' DW. If it was impossible to do, then it was impossible. If DM's heart wasn't it them, then I didn't want them.

DM: "I work moment-to-moment; this includes acknowledging the variability of opportunity each moment affords. . . Mr. Warren called Time the secret subject of every story worth telling."

Sorry, David! No time for you!

Anyways, in the JFC Cast in Other Roles thread, Confidence with Brian Van Holt was recommended. I watched it last night and really really liked it. The con had shades of Mamet and lo and behold, the screenwriter said that Mamet's House of Games was one of his inspirations.

Also, HBO is re-airing JFC beginning on 9/4, if anyone wants to give it a first or second look. Or avoid it like the plague.

GoodyGoody, given all the fuckin' givens, it just feels like JFC never stood a chance. I loved it. It made me "so happy." [/Dr. Smith] The biggest complaint about it was that it was obscure. I fail to see how it was any more obscure and impenetrable than Lost.

People "whined" about Deadwood's demise (and sacrifice) because it was worth whining FOR. And is it whining if the subject is remarkable and worthy? In my, and many other's, opinion, it was the most stellar project HBO ever put out. Milch too, for that matter.

A brilliant gold star on the resume of the cable channel, tarnished by a too-sudden end, and a muddy mix-it-up between the powers that be.

Fuck the alcoholic, drug-addled decisions of Chris Albrecht. A pox on the corporate dark knights wielding the disheartening sword of premature cancellation towards David Milch, forcing him to get his creative FIX elsewhere, on an inferior project.

I still seethe. And pine for what could have been. And I still want it to happen... and the door is still open, albeit just a crack.

Except that JFC came after he announced the other shiny new obect, to the press in 2005; the cop drama. That's a show he's wanted to do for a long time.
Read the DW thread, many thought the show was already meandering in 3. Since Ian is free till mid October, if they start DW now (2 weeks ago would really have been better), they could concievably shoot three hours worth in 6 weeks.

And I've never heard of Albrecht/Strauss forcing an author off one project and onto another or encouraging an artist to actvely juggle two projects at once, ever. Not Mills/Simon, not Chase, not Ball .. no one. This isn't a L&O franchise for god sake, and they of all people know that. And handing over 60 million to whatever surrogate was supposed to takeover DW's 4th season would have been crazy... and probably yelded unsatisfactory results.

Puck, from what I've read through three years of following this religiously, that is completely incorrect. They did not introduce the cop drama before JFC. That was in his stable of ideas, along with the DW movies, and with the Roman show. They were already doing Rome, so they passed on that particular idea and went with Deadwood. The 70s cop show has been in the mix since before Deadwood, too.

Most of the principal and peripheral actors - McShane, Olyphant, Brown, Young, Weigert, and Beaver have all posted that they are willing and ever-able to reprise their roles. McShane and Olyphant have kept HBO in constant touch with their schedules so that any agreement on time could be negotiated.

Milch said it wouldn't be 'fair' for them to make Deadwood a priority right now. It seems the actors are not in accord with that statement, as they've taken steps to make themselves readily available, should any Deadwood word come down. And Milch himself has recently given Earl Brown reason to hope, via their last phone conversation.

I dare to hope, as well, and cheer any good news in that vein.

FineWine the cop drama was beyond just a stable of ideas, he announced it to the press See article here as green-lit back in 2005. That's very different from speaking abtractly. For whatever reason, they pushed it back.

The first I heard about JFC was at the MIT lecture (April 2006?), tho like many ideas, no doubt it was born earlier. Was it introduced as a go ahead before then? You're saying he was going to work on 3 projects concurrently?

I felt that JFC's main problem was following The Sopranos and being paired with Entourage. Yes, there is an element of Soprano viewers that was interested in symbolism and ideas, but what made that show a 'hit' were the viewers who wanted a well done mob show. JFC was aimed at a MUCH smaller audience.

As to the show on its own merits, while the characterization was excellent, the fundamental mystery of who John was and what his agenda was should have been more clearly focused. While a show like Lost maybe equally 'obscure' in terms of mythology, it uses very familiar storytelling.

I love Butchie Yost, too. Goodbye, sweet, lost man!

Puck, not concurrently, that's why I took exception to your previous remark. My understanding is that he's had several of these ideas in the cooker at the same time, so one didn't take precedence over the other until they (the ptb) said yay or nay. And if I need to provide links (that's gonna be a huge onus because they are many, and are they even allowed?), I totally will, but it's gonna take some archival research.

Or, just go look at the boards. You'll see everything I said previously corroborated at the Hooples Bend Over site. Also, I'm a mod at Whedonesque.org on the Deadwood board, so look at the contributions there.

Ain't just talkin' out my ass.

I had the same problem with this show that I had with Deadwood. The cursing was INSANELY overused (especially in the case of DW). It became too much of a distraction for me to concentrate on the plot. HBO still puts out good product, but Showtime has kind of usurped them recently in a bloodless coup. Now that The Sopranos is done, all they have left to interest me is Real Time, Big Love and Entourage, whilst Showtime has Weeds, Penn & Teller, The Tudors and The L Word. I also want to start watching Dexter.

For my money I would take Carnivale over Deadwood anyday..

I'm sure all authors have many ideas on the cooker, so that's neither here nor there. All that matters is what's green-lit for production. My point is, working on two shows concurrently (as WAS clearly planned, first with cop show/DW then later with JFC/DW as you can see by the article), regardless of the show, is a crazy idea, given the givens. And unprecidented for HBO. And yeah I would be curious to see a link to where JFC was announced as in production, to the press, before October 2005. Yes linking to a published article or press release IS allowed.

I will probably never comprehend why I liked this show so much; or why, while watching, I would often have a big grin on my face. When I think about not getting to see more Butchie or Kai, it hurts a little bit. It kills me when I read an early interview with Brian Van Holt and he says something along the lines that the story doesn't really start until episode 10. At least I'm left with the sublime final shot of Kai surfing and the evocative music to listen and remember how it made me feel. (Thanks again, thatguy01, for that post.)

Three shows I never imagined being mentioned in the same sentence. Thanks, TWoP!



Is Jim Beaver volunteering to lie in a casket to start the movie at Ellsworth's funeral?

There were never any plans to run the shows side by side. Milch never sleeps when he has just ONE show on, I can't imagine he'd take on two at a time.

He has also plainly stated that he didn't even know where JFC was going. Was he Jesus Christ, or an alien? Then, in a complete turnaround he says: "What if God were desperately trying to contact us?"

So I guess it's left to us to take what we will. I couldn't care less. The only thing I take from the show is that there is no more Deadwood.

Puck, when I get those links together I'll email you.
thatguy, Ellsworth could easily return, in flashbacks if nothing else. Also, Milch has a penchant for reusing actors, a la Dillahunt. Ellsworth's evil twin brother, perhaps? ;)

But as you can see by his last statement in the article, that was the plan. The reporter even questioned it. And yeah, the idea was ridiculous. Likely he was going to prepere a rough outline for the 4h and hand DW over to a surrogate, while he worked on the ClarkShow/JFC.

I think HBO is bringing Milch's "cop show" front and center now because they have so little that appeals to a wide audience, and with the serious competition other cable networks are giving them, this is probably going to be the one that really replaces The Sopranos and gets HBO back in the game.


You're going to make me cry. I think Butchie was the most complex, damaged and beautiful character Milch ever wrote. I am going to miss all the JFC characters, but I am in love with Butchie! I so hope BVH and Ed O'Neill have major roles in his new show. From what I've seen of BVH, Butchie was his best work. Both BVH's and EO'N's performances in JFC were just sublime. I also have to give RDeM the props she deserves. She put so much of herself into the Cissy role and she was not afraid to bring the ugly. It must have been exhausting for her to be so angry and hateful.


That's so true. I blame HBO's marketing and Milch for that. Just call him an alien already! Anyone not of this world, not matter what he is or where he's from, is that. Had they called him that, I believe JFC would have had a larger audience from the get-go.

And there's the rub. Milch wanted the viewers to be as bewildered and in awe of John's character and abilities as the IB denizens, and they hesitated to identify him so that the audience could be a part of that "slow unfolding." Leaving the "who and what is John" mystery open for interpretation was Milch's intent. Milch told Garret Dullahunt his character represented the audience. But in the end, the audience was sacrificed for the sake of Milch's "slow unfolding" story-telling technique and his desire for John to remain a mystery to everyone.




WORD. And the last episode literally had me clapping my hands and laughing with joy! Never has a show, movie or book had an affect on me like JFC did. It was so uplifting and inspirational, and not necessarily in a religious kind of way, but in a human kind of way. The messages of love, redemption, forgiveness, understanding and the importance of community and ohana (and holding hands!) were universal.

We are all frail vessels. JFC was, too. Alas, I wish it could have gone on, but I'll always be grateful I had it.

It was so raw and unattractive, I was thinking of a review of Bad Santa: Billy Bob Thornton picked up the script, put it to his head, and pulled the trigger.

I don't think a show about a cop in the 70s infiltrating the Black Panthers, has any more appeal, necessarily than JFC which is modern and features more pretty people on the regular in leading roles, than The Sopranos. The narrative was a bit confusing but as Mr. Sobell pointed out, the themes themselves were neither unique nor inaccessable.

Guessing, I'd say that maybe it was too similar to The Wire. Both urban dramas featuring cops, with three distinct groups trying to get ahead or stay even. The two shows would have overlapped some.

I never watched Deadwood, so I came fresh into this show.

The things I liked: John's metaphoric, allegorical, foreshadowy dialogue. When I have to stop and think what is actually being said, but I can recognize that all the clues are there, I can be pretty happy. I also enjoyed all the weird, unexplained stuff that happened, and the characters' reactions to them.

The things I didn't like: any time the characters had a real, linear, simple conversation, I just did not care for the characters.

I think my favourite scene was the one with Sideshow Luke Perry and John, at the end, with SLP actively trying to puzzle out what John was saying.

I have to disagree here. The cop show genre is well defined. A show about surfing, which undoubtedly some people thought it was, is much further outside audience expectations. As much as we credit David Chase for subverting mob genre conventions, he also took advantage of audience familiarty with them. Much easier to sell an audience on the idea of a cop show, and then have it be theoretical and well done. Then start with a mysterious visitor from outer space? Heaven? invading the life of down on their luck surfing 'royalty.'

If that's true, then HBO and Milch really do need to get those out of the way ASAP or else anything Milch does for HBO will be darkened by DW's looming shadow. JFC took a lot of punches for the absence of those movies and I don't expect it will be any different with his new show. The HBO suits really should have known better, and should know better by now, but I'm not sure they've learned their lesson yet.


That's my thinking as well. Besides, no one writes cops and cop shows like DM (even though calling it a"cop show" is probably doing it a disservice.) I bet it will be big and huge.


That's in my Top 10, along with Pops and the El Camino. Peter Jason was most excellent in that scene. I was really looking forward to seeing more of John's Father.


I think that (in bold) was a message from Milch, to the audience and HBO. I think HBO killed JFC long before the season was done filming, and DM got a few licks in.

I don't know about that. You may find JFC easier to follow than the Clark drama. This is no NYPD Blue. I think it'll be closer to "Big Apple" which was cancelled after 5 episodes because it was way too dense for audiences to follow. Honestly JFC was Cat In The Hat compared to that tangled web. . . I had massive trouble keeping track of who was who. But of course Ed O'Neill was tops! That type of thing requires the author to balance three distinct (often opposing) communities and make them convincingly intersect. . . not to mention friends, family . etc... It's massive. In that sense it's more similar to The Wire. If HBO has taught us anything, in the world of unconventional storytelling, no genre is safe. Based on The Wire's and Big Apple's ratings, it's hard to imagine how they'd expect it to do much better than JFC. And it'll have a huge cast!

Edited to say since, according to IMDB, "Death Race" is filming now (Montreal?), McShane's gonna have to high tail it to NY right after. Sorry, my mistake.

Not for nothing, but have any of you noticed how Greyson Fletcher's life parallels that of Shaun Yost? Granddad's a great surfer, dad "revolutionized" surfing then became a drug addict?

If I wasn't so tired, I could make some intelligent comments. I wonder if Milch, in his research, found the Fletcher story and integrated it into what he was thinking of doing with JFC? The show wasn't always about surfing, was it?

I know nothing of the actor's personal history, and hesitate to draw any direct parallels between real-life and screen. But having noted Mr Fletcher's first name I have thought how appropriate it would be as a name for Shaun, for what is Butchie if not grey?

Herbie and Dibi Fletcher (the grands) are credited on the show too.

The Yost family dynamic is almost the same, exc that JFC reverses the roles of the grands and the birth mother, and makes the birth mother literally a whore. Ick.

This was my must watch show on Sundays, loved it! After every episode me and Mr. ncw would look at each other, and wonder what just happened, and what does this all mean. I'll miss watching the Yost family, the hotel manager, eh, not so much.


bayareabrad, I would kill to see a resolution to Carnivale. It ended way too abruptly. That was one of my HBO favorites!

I wouldn't be too happy if it was me. I thought it was so interesting though, to have the new Messiah's mother be a Porn Queen, and it worked for me because had Joseph rejected Mary, she would have been considered a whore by the community and been ostracized.


HBO. I don't care how many times they say they aren't just TV. They are so.


I didn't read Mr. Sobell's recaps. I'm sure they were great, but there was enough negativity going around about JFC already. Anyways, I'm glad I didn't since it's my understanding that he's a poopy head. ;) Maybe someday, when the cancellation isn't still smarting.

So this blogger claims after a tirade he posted over JFC, DW and Milch, that Jim Beaver read it and he responded with an email, which the blogger said he was given permission to post. Kind of hard to know if it's true or not. But I'll buy it.


Mr. Milch's JFC certainly had an affect this human's condition. It pains me when DM (or any artist) puts so much of himself into something and it's rejected not for what the thing itself is, but for what it wasn't and for what he was not giving at the time (DW). He's got to boogie! HIM! Circle and line on the wall and zeros and goddamn ones is what he was told to turn his gifts to. I can understand how JFC wasn't for everyone, and as the alleged Mr. Beaver said no one is obligated "to revere every crumb that drops from his mouth," but frankly, I dont think JFC was viewed with an objective mind by many people, including the entertainment critics who probably hurt this show more than any single force. Most of them had a DW bias. Preach it, Mr. Benjamin Franklin! “Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.”

DM is the shepherd, without crook or understanding.



Ha! RDeM let go of all ego, huh? How hard was that for her, or any woman, to do? And I so wanted Cissy to SHUT UP. At least Shaunie finally got a hug!

ETA: I have to add a link to a comment posted on the JFC Digg campaign. This shrink sent HBO and Time Warner a letter that's pretty goddamn funny and accurate! Ha!

If you want to avoid negativity, just skip the last paragraph(s) after the final scene on the last page of the recaps (particularly the final page of the last recap, which substantially deals with the fans, not what David Milch put on the screen or said publicly). Scene by scene, the recaps are fine TWoP snarkage.

I've been thinking a lot lately about the parallels between Studio 60 and JFC. TWW/Sports Night and Deadwood are some of my favorite shows, ever, and I looked forward to both of these new offerings with major anticipation. But both creator/author/showrunners did indulge themselves way too much, both in their characteristic last-minute scripts and rewrites hopelessly decimating the budget, and in flaws in the shows themselves--Sorkin's laughable plotlines and unbelievable romances, Milch's somewhat meandering plot and the "trust me, it might make sense eventually" obscurity. I stuck through with both to the end, because the occasional spark of beauty was worth the nonsense surrounding it. But they lost enough viewers--and squandered enough production money--to doom the shows.

To be honest, it makes me worry. Joss Whedon has been dropping hints of making another foray into a somewhat more richly-compensated field (dare I dream it? another series?), and since many bad things come in threes, a similar fall involving Joss would break my little heart.

Lucille we've already dicussed JFC replacing DW chapter and verse on the DW thread, also the "raising the $$" issue was touched on. -- I don't think very many people here doubt DM fully expected a 4th DW season. But it wasn't as simple as that. I find the folks here for the most part, aren't all or nothing, zealot types... viewing things or people as either all good or all bad.

Lucille--thanks a million for posting that awesome, Ellsworth-y power punch from Jim Beaver. That should be the go-to link for every Milch naysayer. I was getting exhausted with the nit picking and second guessing of just what exactly went down in those dark days at HBO, and that LAYS IT OUT from a point of view I know we can trust. Jim Beaver is a terrific actor and writer, and that one read like he was digging Milch out of the Comstock cave-in with his bare hands! "You didn't leave me behind, Joe!"

And that shrink is 100% right about HBO's current dysfunctionality. The alternating Deadwood/John From Cinncinati scenario Beaver spoke about would have been great--and would have kept everyone happy AND creatively engaged and challenged.

All of these intrigues takes me back to the quote Milch stated in one of the early HBO teasers for JFC, from Henry James--"The question of the final stamp, the pressure that fixes the final mark, is yet to be determined." I took his meaning to be that no matter how embittered or dehumanized or smug or deluded or "certain" we may be, there is always the possibility and opportunity of a shift that will change everything and make us see ourselves in a new light. There's a lot to be learned from JFC for both Milch and HBO, and I am keeping a good thought to them both. When Milch "baits and switches" we get genre smashing TV like Deadwood and noble, wild experiments like JFC. When HBO "baits and switches" and kills off shows with growing audiences, they get disgruntled, distrustful viewers, creative limitation of geniuses they pay big money to, and Dexter breathing down on them (and no unjustified "killer" wants that, do they!?).

Wow, what a great thought, kzoogal, I think that is very true of JFC in particular. I just watched ep three yesterday, and there were many moments of beauty there.

Beaver said David told him that? It's very hard to believe HBO would have ever done that. They weren't thrilled with Chase doing it and it yields lower numbers. Milch himself said he was bent on keeping DW on schedule because he thought long lapses between a show's seasons (no less than 2 years, for sure), was a bad idea.

Puck, I do believe that's what Milch conveyed to Beaver, as from this quote from the piece Lucille linked to in her post...

I might believe that he told him that, but based on the above, (incuding DM's own comments) i doubt it was ever true. So either HBO temporarily lost their minds, or Milch was willing to do something that by his own account, was a bad idea. And don't you think his mention of Dick Wolfe is kind of grasping at straws? I mean that's a good example of the differences in shows and their respective requirements not the likenessess. David Kelley. Another really bad example and I think the fact that he's notorious for poorly aging shows says it all.

If DM was considering turning DW S4 over to Earl Brown, etc, then he must have been planning for future DW production to run concurrently with his next project. For HBO, that probably would mean alternating shoot/air cycles for the two DM projects.

Not yet ready to speak of JFC in the past tense.

**sniff**

Console yourself by speaking of Deadwood in the past tense.

It's seems liklier to me he planned to turn to project over to someone, (another bad idea imo) but Brown? I'm not sure I follow. What would DW be without Dan? I thought he was a great character and a great actor. If they had decided to alternate JFC with DW, which sounds far fetched, then they wouldn't need another showrunning group. But HBO has had 2 shows in production at once.

According to IMDB, John from Cincinnati used soundstages at the Melody Ranch studios, which means when they were doing interior shoots, they were walking past the Deadwood sets every day! To do two shows on two groups of established sets, and not filming concurrently would be totally workable, and probably lots cheaper, with cast, staff and crew more consistantly employed. At this point, HBO should just give Milch a chunk of dough, have him get his loyalist actors to set up a repertoire company with a piece of the action and SAG waivers, and tell him, "We don't care which show you do, and spend the money however you like, but you have to give us 12 episodes of each show with defined box-set worthy endings. If you go over budget, it's out of your own pocket and you have to pay a five million dollar fine." I bet he'd go for it. NYPD Blue happened as a response to cable TV like HBO, and now it's time for pay cable to think more creatively. At this point, everyone in town knows Milch's strengths AND weaknesses, so support those strengths and change your business model--you are still going to make more money on this guy then you will ever lose.

Oh, that would be so, so very cool. I'd be willing to contribute to the chunk of dough!

I do wish JFC had been a little more popular. I want to put Johnisms into my tag lines and such, but they wouldn't be recognized by all but a few faithful.