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TWoP Forums > Other TV Shows > Read-Only Archive > John From Cincinnati > John From Cincinnati General Gabbery
Prettyeyes
One of the best things about this show for me is that it's inspired numerous philosopical discussions about religion, politics and history. The Christian metaphors alone can take days to digest. Given the apparent popularity of dissecting all the more spiritual elements of the show, a thread for it is long overdue, so here it is.

Contemplate the deeper meanings of JFC here.
Lucille
I was reading about Gnosticism and I think John may be an Aeon, or a lesser god.

This Monad is the spiritual source of everything which emanates the plemora, and could be contrasted to the darkness of pure matter.

Something else that is nagging at me is "In Cass’s camera, Ramon wants to know who’s hungry, in the courtyard and room 45."

I was wondering if room 45 was referring to a room at all, or if there was a double meaning.

45 BC = Julian Calendar year 1. (This was also the dawn of the Age of Pisces, which Jesus' birth ushered in. Is John here to usher in the Age of Aquarius? Does Ramon want to know who's hungry in the courtyard in the new year 1?)
45 AD is when St. Paul (who Elaine Pagels claims was a Gnostic) began his mission, and also the year people began calling those who follow Jesus "Christians."
1945 was when a cash of Gnostic gospels was found in its hiding place in Egypt, one of them being this one. (It was also the beginning of the end of WWII, when the nazis tried to eradicate God's chosen people.)

As far as the double meaning goes, Ramon (wise protector) is the name of a few saints. One being the patron saint of the law and lawyers (Dickstein) and another, the parton saint of midwives and expectant mothers. JFC's Ramon may represent both.

Maybe in the future, there will be a birth in at the Snug Harbor in room 45, and Ramon will tend to her. Maybe Kai and Butchie's child? She really was, for lack of a better term, glowing in the last episode.

Or maybe, Mitch moves into room 45 after Cissy kicks his ass out!
thatguy01
Maybe Kai and Butchie's child? She really was, for lack of a better term, glowing in the last episode.


Different glow. ;)
Lucille
Heeee!

I don't think what Dickstein drew was a Monad symbol. The Monad symbol is just a circle with a point in the center, isn't it? (Kind of like the Elephant Cage, actually.) What they keep drawing are more like stick figures with no arms. Maybe he is an alien after all. Someone said the shuffleboard court looked like a landing strip for John's space ship. Heh. It's true though.

Has anyone gotten a good look at all the tattoos on the JFC characters? What is this one on Butchie's arm? Is it this image? Butchie has a Nautical Star on his neck.

Freddy has the salamander on his neck, but I can't make out the rest.

Kai has one, too, on her lower back.

Welcome, TheresaDee!
TeresaDee
I was wondering if room 45 was referring to a room at all, or if there was a double meaning.

45 BC = Julian Calendar year 1. (This was also the dawn of the Age of Pisces, which Jesus' birth ushered in. Is John here to usher in the Age of Aquarius? Does Ramon want to know who's hungry in the courtyard in the new year 1?)
45 AD is when St. Paul (who Elaine Pagels claims was a Gnostic) began his mission, and also the year people began calling those who follow Jesus "Christians."
1945 was when a cash of Gnostic gospels was found in its hiding place in Egypt, one of them being this one. (It was also the beginning of the end of WWII, when the nazis tried to eradicate God's chosen people.)


Thanks so much for this, Lucille!
Lucille
Here's an old Salon article about Deadwood, but this part fits, since Milch talks about where he sees God:

But what I love about the show is that you find things to care about in a wide range of different characters.

Some people will not know themselves. As the minister says at Hickok's funeral, he quotes Paul -- that was what I wanted to do that Roman show about, was the first guy they arrested was Saint Paul. But Paul says, "If the hand shall say, 'Because I am not the foot, I am not therefore the body of Christ,' is it not of the body?" In other words, because we misunderstand our natures, does that exclude us from the community of spirits? And the answer is no, it just means we misunderstand our natures. So many of these characters misunderstand their natures, but that does not prevent us from recognizing that they're of the body of Christ. My feeling about "Deadwood" is it's a single organism, and I think human society is the body of God, and in a lot of ways it's about the different parts of the body having a somewhat more confident sense of their identity over the course of time.

What kinds of characters do you enjoy writing the most? Do you favor certain characters?

No. You know, William James said that what every spiritual experience has in common is ego suppression at depth. That is, one loses one's sense of one's own separate identity, and experiences a kind of in-rush of either a sense of God or one's commonality with others. So when I write, I try to have no favorites. I try to be sort of a vessel of the character, and that's how I feel a part of the body of Christ. I feel that they're all part of a single thing, and they just exhibit their sameness differently, if that makes sense.

It does. Do you feel like you're channeling God or the spirits when you write?

Well, I think we all are vessels of God, you know. As Saint Paul says, if the hand doesn't know, that doesn't mean it's not part of the body, that just means it doesn't know. And that's why, when I'm able to be of service to the characters, I experience God's presence more acutely than I do when I'm not working. So I try to work as much as I can.

Working on JFC must really make him feel close to God, hm? David Milch owns me. I don't care how crazy he says he is, he's more together than most.

That first part about "misunderstanding our natures" reminds me of the exchange between Dr. Smith and Butchie on the half-pipe:

Butchie: Whatever that means doc, I'm busted for being a dope fiend.

Smith: Why would that make you ineligible for a paranormal experience?
TeresaDee
As the philosophy thread was suggested as a place to continue our religious/spiritual musings, I thought I'd bring the thread up. {snip}

Anyone else wish to share their beliefs and how they may connect to their enjoyment/understanding/interpretation of JFC?
thatguy01
In ep 9, I'm seeing bursts of divine love (which may be what some viewers are grooving on, despite the presence or absence of story). Most of these characters are coming from so far down that their faith in the face of doubt appears to be channeled from a supernatural source (Butchie bearing witness to his hope despite Cissy's cruelty; Doc Mike speaking to Barry's humanity behind a hissing demon; Linc suggesting that, in her human weakness, Tina submit herself directly to God for redemption and strength to save her child).
Postkantian
tangentially related
http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article...ils.php?id=9708
drabauer
Oh my God not Roger Scruton! Run, don't walk, away from his writings!
smunky
Oh my God not Roger Scruton! Run, don't walk, away from his writings!


I agree. It's so funny though when the crazies attack Richard Dawkins.
Postkantian
Can't say I've had the pleasure. What's wrong with Scrotum?

(personally, I think we should run towards writers who concern us - otherwise eveyrone ends up living in hermetically sealed universes or comfort zones that are of greater concern).
drabauer
I primarily know Scruton as the author of an Aesthetics of Music which is as utterly unmusical as any writing could be, denying most of what I work on as music (not to mention the whole theory was constructed hierarchically upon untenable, extremely narrow, positivist foundations). I read more of him out of curiousity, and found it just as conservative, and proudly untouched by any philosophical trends of the past 40 years.

I agree that we need to read outside our interests, but I also feel that life is too short to waste on pointedly self-referential work, isolated from the world in which I live and work.

In short, he's got a stick up his ass. I'll read Rorty et al if I want the "other side."
sallyrover
I agree that we need to read outside our interests, but I also feel that life is too short to waste on pointedly self-referential work, isolated from the world in which I live and work.


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