The theories are rich, about "Deadwood" and "John from Cincinnati" rebounds and reflections. Milburn Stone already posted about Mitch's being the Seth character, the reluctant hero.

People hate Mitch. Maybe, because we first see Mitch with his wife, rather than Seth alone and then with his lover and then with his wife. People seem to find Mitch just as much or even more, a pain in the ass as Al did Seth, initially. Plus, now we have in our heads the idea of a New Age Seth, speaking of his chakras, rather than just...clenching.

More "Deadwood" might kinda = characters, not actors. With huzzahs, to all who posted before.

Bill = Doc Cochran. A lonely and despairing soul, who yet believes in his people and believes in miracles.
Made Jewel walk. Made Shaun revive.

John = Reverend Smith. The loonie loon who draws kindness out of people who believed they were long past that. And changes them, by doing so.

Cissy = Trixie. The truth-teller, the seer, the woman who speaks up for and against her erring men, and for all communities she bridges, but sees them more clearly than she sees herself.

Linc = Cy as Cass = Joanie, as another poster pointed out. The man manipulatng, the woman finding herself.

Shaun = William, trampled by the horse and the wave, but this time, surviving.

Kai = Jane, as another poster pointed out. The woman with a reputation in her own right, waiting to be loved by the man she had chosen. Butchie is her Wild Bill.

Butchie = Wild Bill, in his tarnished fame and his desire to be "Just left alone and go to hell," but this time, Garret Dillahunt is a benign character, and Butchie responds to John as Wild Bill was not allowed, historically, to respond to the Reverend Smith. This time, Butchie lives.

Mitch, as Seth, to Cass: "I levitate before you, as a married man."

All I can think while I'm sitting there watching this show is: I lost Deadwood for this?

That said, it's amusing to see all the old Deadwood actors showing up in different roles for this series. It actually took me a moment to place some of them. They are talented enough for it to not be immediately obvious.

Very good points about the parallels between the characters on the two series. I hadn't thought of it that way before. This show isn't that bad, but maybe I'll enjoy it a little more now.

I wish I could say something positive about the story or the show (JFC) itself, but I can't. The only reason I'm watching it from week to week is to see the former cast members of Deadwood. And last night we didn't even get to see Dr. Smith. Feh.

I have to agree reluctantly. I have tried to get into this show. So far, I'm not feeling the love. Deadwood (the town) was just as much a character in Deadwood as any of the others. There was a richness and attention to detail that does not come across in JFC's Imperial Beach. Most of us can identify with the characters in Deadwood as it was a microcosm of the America that immigrants came to with the dream of growing rich. It represented all that was bad - and good about the American Dream. JFC is the American Dream Lite. It is, IMHO, a look at a bunch of people who don't really know what hard, honorable work is all about, yet they are visited by a miracle worker who saves, not a person who will one day change the world, but a young surfer. Unless Shaun does something noble, he is just a cute kid surfer who will become a grown-up surf bum like his father and grandfather. Despite the attempt to draw an allegory to the beginning of Christianity, I do not feel that the surfing theme holds any water. (/bad pun.)

I rewatched Deadwood's pilot this week and noticed the same shy smile and lowered gaze when Jane was around Bill that Kai sometimes has around Butchie. But it was annoying rather than endearing.

There may be similarities, but Deadwood's characters were alive for me and JFC's aren't. When I wasn't watching Deadwood, I was wondering what Seth and Alma and Ellsworth et al were doing. JFC's people are characters in a TV show.

I thought the fourth JFC episode had more of those dazzling Deadwoodian speech patterns -- either that, or I was finally clicking into the rhythms. But then I watched a rerun of an old "Deadwood" -- the one where Al meets Seth and Sol -- and once reminded of the real thing, I'm back to realizing that, no, JFC is kin, but a very poor relation.

I noticed the Cy/Joanie/Linc/Cass connection very quickly. Joanie was always my favorite girl on Deadwood after Trixie turned into a big bitch and I instantly had the same connection with Cass. And the William/Shaun parallel with the accident was almost laughable for me at first. There are plenty of Deadwood-esque language. At one point there was an awkward end to a conversation and Shaun muttered "Anyways..." and walked off, and total Deadwood moment!

Of course, we miss Al. Sigh given, sigh taken.

But where is the Milch-brunette, the father-troubled, yet-loved-by-a-decent man, of all his previous shows? (At least, NYPD and Deadwood).

To call her "that type" can seem condescending, but in Alma, he made her utterly admirable.

TV Week had a depressing blog today about the likelihood of the Deadwood movies ever getting produced. The author implies that HBO's post-Albrecht regime would be willing to show Deadwood more love, given JFC's fuckin' givens (i.e.: low ratings, low critical love). But also hinted that Milch, going right from Deadwood into JFC, might be getting burned-out and won't want to dive right back into Deadwood after JFC wraps for the season (or for good). Plus, a lot of the key DW actors (Molly Parker, John Hawkes, Robin Weigert) have already commited to do other series and may not be available to do Deadwood movies. I think HBO has done its viewers...and Milch and the cast(s)...a great disservice by killing Deadwood one season short of it's indended 4-year run and rushing JFC on the air. I, for one, would have welcomed JFC AFTER Deadwood...even anticipated it! I like many things about the show. Now, like many others, I see JFC merely as "the show that killed Deadwood."

At this point, I'd be happy with the scripts if Milch would write them and put them out there.

Even a season four synopsis would do.

A question for the Deadwoodians: I recently went to the HBO site and noted how many actors from that series are in JFC. What is that like for you--interesting, challenging, distracting, fun?

Just curious.

I love seeing them. I've noticed some actors show-hopping on HBO series before. Both Anna Gunn and Molly Parker were on Six Feet Under before Deadwood (in smaller roles.)

I noticed that the actor portraying our gentle, kind physician played what sounds like a very disturbed character on Deadwood. Reminds me of when I see Michael Imperioli, sociopathic made man/junkie on the Sopranos, portray a cop/night school law student on Law and Order. Perhaps these casting directors are obsessed with Freudian reaction formation! Must be great fun for the actors, though.

HA!

Yes! How could I have forgotten Dillahunt! He played both Jack McCall and Francis Wolcott on Deadwood. And of course Paula Malcomson as Trixie and Jerri. I hope she saves Dickstein from his ball-buster.

Holy shit. When I went to HBO to get the spelling of the names right, I saw Austin Nichols (John) also played Morgan Earp on Deadwood! I didn't recognize him at all.

(Malcomson and McShane were robbed of their emmys.)

Happy to see them, then usually not distracting. When they enter the scene, I can hear the round of applause from Deadwood fans, then I settle back into the new story.

The one that's distracting for me is Dayton Callie. He's very distinctive, and he plays Freddy a lot like Charlie Utter. The characters have some superficial similarities, too; gruffly resolving the disagreement with Smith and Palaka is very Charlie. But I loved Charlie and didn't get enough of him from Deadwood, so it's okay for me.

Love both series in different ways. The actors from Deadwood are all good actors so there was a ten second or so, "Oh isn't that so and so?" which quickly dissipated. Of course, that could have been different had it been one of the leads. Timothy Olyphant surfing? Nah...Ian McShane talking to his bird? Hmmmmm.

I've been watching Season 1 of Deadwood. It is just so rich and full of life. This show is poor and not full of life. I want to like it but it just lies there doing nothing for me.

Personally, I like both shows.

I loved Deadwood. I loved discussing each episode with a coworker who loved it as well. I wanted my wife to watch it so we could discuss it, but she would not watch it. She decided to hate it early on, and I could not change her mind.

On the other hand, my wife can’t get enough of JFC. We watch each episode several times, analyze it, and talk about it.

I don’t understand why she loves JFC but hates Deadwood.

Well, I’ll work with what I got… It’s the hand I was dealt.

Watching back to back with "The Trial of Jack McCall," I think the difference is that a typical Deadwood ep has an obvious problem structure that doesn't need explanation. When Palaka dropped sick in the surf shop, I had no more idea what would happen than Cissy.

This is just totally random, but I was rewatching the episode today and a thought struck me.

Imagine this scene:

Barry (entering from the sliding door carrying two buckets): Some of the ice is yellow with rust from the machine.

Dr. Smith: It’s all right.

Barry: We don’t have to use it. The yellow is segregated in the silver pail.


a slightly different way.


Set in the Gem, with Johnnie as Barry and Dan Dority as Dr. Smith.

Johnnie (entering from the bar carrying two trays of peaches): Some of them peaches is yeller with fuckin’ cinnamon from Jewel.

Dan: Fuckin’ unauthorized fuckin’ cinnamon!

Johnnie: They don’t have to et ‘em. Them yeller ones I put off to the fuckin’ side.

Yesterday I met two fellas who had been "background artists" on Deadwood, and had some good tales to tell of waiting long hours on set, only to have Milch appear from the writer's trailer, script pages held high, of how hot their clothing was and how dusty and muddy the set was (and how they didn't clean up after the horses, for authenticity sake). They seemed to have really enjoyed it though! They had regular "jobs" in the camp, and told me how to look for them, so I gunned up some of the episodes I had stored up on my tivo, and watched as all the way back in episode two, Bullock says "anyway" and "tomorrow is another day" within a few breaths of each other. I sure do miss Deadwood, but tomorrow is another day, and "Johnday" is coming on soon...

I love both shows. But even though they deal with a similar overall theme (of how we all learn not to fuck each other up quite so much), I can understand people who were soaked in Deadwood reeling a bit. It's like seeing your favourite oil portraitist start pumping out multimedia installations. The palette is different, the tempo is different, the whole thing is seen through a different cut of the prism.

On the whole, I would say that Deadwood was a lot more rigorous - something about the setting and the pre-existing history demanded more discipline of its makers, whereas John From C is much more self-indulgent, and much more exploratory. But I'm enjoying it so much, and bits of it have touched me so deeply that I am very willing to indulge.

I also think that people are kind of used to this must-have-hits mindset where a TV show must be a fully-formed popular culture masterpiece or it dies. This show is obviously an experiment, with its author discovering it as much as the audience, and not overly concerned with whether it sticks or not. And I'm cool with it. I think it's how masterpieces eventually emerge. This one is a flawed diamond, but I would never trade it for it not existing.

Dunno. Deadwood's coffee. JFC is cool salve. I'm glad to have both.

As you Deadwoodians have made me so curious, I watched part of an episode the other night. For me, it felt like the JFC characters transported into the past! Interesting how the Milchian phrasing can work in both settings--equally well, I believe.

Deadwood, Carnivale, Rome are all shows I missed because their scheduling didn't mix well with having a child at home. At some point I would like to catch Deadwood on DVD. There were 3 seasons, correct?

I always loved NYPD Blue, but didn't know it was Milch. Now that I think back, I see it there too--especially with Sipowicz.

Oh, TDee, I thought Deadwood was masterfully done...at least until the 3rd season when Milch started concentrating more on developing JFC and HBO unwisely and prematurely announced that there would be no 4th season. Deadwood's 3rd season suffered because of promising storylines (Langrishe troupe) that were introduced and instead of being fleshed out on into season 4, instead seemed pointless and a waste---and there was no closure to many of the main characters.

Definitely get the first 2 seasons of DWood.

Will do, Fisher King. Thanks for the heads up.

Now that we're nine eps into "John", the "Deadwood/John" tropes that have played out include,

The boss. That ballsy, angry, too-sadistic character for us to ever take a shine to, becoming a favorite: Al and Freddy. And the other, female side, on "John", Cissy.

An aside: Milch has chosen to give Cissy all the anger and world-weariness of his male antogonists-become-charmers, without allowing her the advantage he gave them, to have succeeded and gained both credence and wisdom in a larger scope, anywhere in the world. Cissy is like Al or Sipowitz, if all they made was another domestic family, and not any else, in the world.

That character's minion/minions, sometimes being played for their Shakespearean comic relief idiocy, but also, often, allowed to display their smarts and their intimacy with "The Boss". With the Boss, they may be cowed, but serving The Boss, they do more than The Boss can even allow to convey, that s/he wants. Dan, Trixie, Jewel, Johnny on "Deadwood" and Palaka and Kai, on "John."

The retired lawman, drawn back into the game: Seth and Bill.

The seemingly, utterly unwanted on both sides, alliance between the lawman and the outlaw: Seth and Al, and Bill and Freddy. "They're going to have to go through both of us." Freddy's line in "John" is the best description of season two, "Deadwood".

A whole community's being made around the death of, or loss of, a golden boy.

Here's an interview with Milch , in which he states that he wrote Ian MacShane's part for Ed O'Neill, but HBO didn't want him. He told Ed he'd have a role for him in the future--I guess he keeps his word.

As someone who's lost a lot of favorite shows, I appreciate the loss felt by fans of Deadwood but I can't help but wonder if some of those fans are taking out their frustrations on this show.



People like different stuff. As long as they give it a fair chance, that's the best you can ask.

DW and JFC share a common thread in this respect, even to how the boys died. Hollister and the N*gger General tried to castrate the horse -- harness nature -- and it escaped and tramples William. Shaun wants to be signed and compete in surf contests -- polluting the sanctity of riding the waves -- and he's killed in the process. Both boys are destroyed when outsiders try to interfere with mother nature; because JFC is playing with different themes than DW, Shaun comes back to life. The themes of building community runs very strong through both shows, and I'll be thrilled if the JFC finale is as beautiful and touching as the town celebrating Ellsworth and Alma's wedding in "Boy the Earth Talks To."



I by no means hate "Deadwood" -- it was my fave TV drama during season two -- but I like JFC more because I like all the characters. Even Mitch, even Cissy -- I love all of them. I liked Al most of the time, but could not stand Bullock or Alma and I loathed Cy. I *loved* the minor characters, but I could never fully invest in the main storylines. And I liked Bullock/Martha a million times more than Bullock/Alma. That put me in the minority already.

Word to your post, Lila82, and count me as part of your minority. I loved Deadwood with the power of a thousand burning nuns despite my animosity towards some of these characters, and just to show that love has no boundaries, I find myself loving JFC even more. Which may just be the central theme - that love, manifesting itself in small acts of contrition, kindness, community, willingness and even faith, is the basis of our humanity and the source of our growth.

I think the essential problem, (since as Mr. Sobell pointed out the themes were essentially the same) was people found these very complexities far greater in DW characters. Even Al as a villain turned not-so-villain (the later point has been debated btw) was more compelling than Linc in the same capacity. The sense of growth perhaps because there was no mystical John character, seemed less tacked on. Possibly because to the extent they were successful, we saw a process; which made it possible to engage in their inner struggle. Sorry I forgot which poster 1st made that point.

I've kinda thought about the difference that John makes in the "Deadwood" mix. It's been suggested elsewhere that JFC really is Deadwood with a happy ending; eg, Jane and Wild Bill connect instead of destroying themselves. The characters in JFC are starting so far down that there's simply no solution unless they're given a second chance by an outside power.

Without John, time becomes the great tragedy for the Yost Clan, including Kai and Tina. Maybe Shaun escapes through Cissy's sacrifice, but everyone else is toast because they can't find their way back to each other before they die.

That may well be true thatguy01, but perhaps this just speaks to the differences in viewer perception (not an invite for an enlightened versus unenlightened viewer debate). For some this just seemed facile and clearly for others, it was beautifully simple.

I think you hit the nail on the head thatguy. The very thing that sold me on John - characters who need help to reach redemption - meant that viewers had to accept their warts-and-all status as simply a starting point, which not everyone did. "Time [became] the great tragedy" for series as well as character arcs.