Discuss!

I want to read this right now! But I have to go out for an appointment. Curse you, dentist!! Can't wait until I get home so I can read about grave-robber Rygel.

Thanks, Keckler, for making that FAR more entertaining than it had any right to be. I love this show, and I actually love Chiana, too, but this episode just sucked out loud for me. Twee, incomprehensible and cringe inducing. I tried to give it an "F," but for whatever reason, episode grading across the site still isn't working for me. Whenever I think about the worst episodes of Farscape, this immediately comes to mind as top of the list.

Oh, God, what a ghastly ep. I had forgotten how wretched it was. Bring back the cheese-rating system! Casu marzu!!

In no particular order:



Bwah! Also? going to hell for laughing so hard at this.



Trivia: you will see this identical pose, with minor variations, quite often when actors are in flying harnesses, and once you start looking, it's EVERYWHERE! (like Paris Hilton!) Flying By Foy, when you hire them to get your Peter Pan or your Fruma Sarah or your Backstreet Boys safely airborne, will instruct you in some standard poses that are intended, IIRC, to put you more or less believably vertical, or at any rate balanced, in such a way that you don't look like you're hanging from a single point at your bra snap, like a wet kitten it its mother's jaws. Check out Mike Teevee in the TV Chocolate scene in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory for a good balance. If I remember properly, Sikozu's Scarran-melting flying in We're So Screwed, Part III:La Bomba is a bit less poised. There are some really ugly landings by Storm in the X-Men movie franchise.

The only reason I know this is because I was lucky enough to be the 145-lb test dummy for a simple Peter Pan rig at work a few years ago, and it was AWESOME! but I didn't envy the actor who had to make it look seamless and self-powered. Now I can't help watching all the takeoffs and landings that pass by. Um. If you can't tell.

"Taking the Stone" is one of those episodes I hide from non-fans. It showcases two of my biggest pet peeves about Farscape's writing: illogical plots and awful, awful, alien vocabulary. I'm not expecting Tolkien's geeky centuries of linguistic backstory, here, but the alien words never seem to have any consistency or recognizable, assignable identity as belonging to one batch of aliens instead of another. Quite often, they're reminiscent of English, or at any rate, Western words with very clear connotations I wish they'd steered clear of. "Garda" makes me think John is an Irish cop, "yotz" is just too close to "Yahtzee," and don't get me started with "Sebaceans." With how obsessive and metrosexually-groomed the Peacekeepers are, I'd've expected them to be called "Exfoliants" or something.

But some of the strengths of the show's writing are in this ep too; the John & Aeryn relationship is at its best here--they show a casual comfort with each other, a simple working understanding, that we so rarely get with all the early animosity and the later self-conscious angst. Browder, Black and Edgley all do excellent work; even if poor Gigi Edgley has to carry the weight of this awful plot, her emotional responses are very good. I don't much like Chiana, but the opening scene was excellent.

This isn't one of my favorite episodes, but I don't hate it. Like a lot of people have said before, even in the less-than-stellar episodes there are things to like. I personally really like Aeryn's strong, but no-bullshit empathy and her intuitive understanding of how to handle Chiana. The little exchange between Chiana and John at the end ("Hey, old man" "Hey, little girl") is one of my favorite Farscape moments. It's all in the line delivery (Ben and Gigi rock), and it really gets to me. There's a lot of subtle emotions going back and forth between the two in that exchange (pain, regret, love, concern, and more) and it's so sweet.

When this episode first aired I thought it was amazing. VM had me worried but after this I knew the second season would rock. Best. Episode. Ever. (until CDM eclipsed it and then TWWW exlipsed that). Yeah... I was a freshman in college and maybe just maybe experimenting with some killer mushrooms myself. I can only say that it had to be because John and Aery are so so pretty. And they are prettier together. And they were so couply in this ep, I had to like that.

This episode is awful. The A plot is rehashed and it feels like it (many of Farscape's plots are borrowed but improved). And the B-plot was so awful, the worst in Farscape, that I have it on constant black out. I just read the recap and probably couldn't tell you what happened in the B-plot.

But I do love Aeryn in this episode. Justin Monjo (who is my favorite Farscape writer even if he did write this AND The Locket) writes Aeryn better than anyone else in my opinion. She is strong and unsentimental but with a good heart. When he writes Aeryn the strong soldier and the compassionate woman don't feel as though they are at odds. Its just Aeryn, who she is. She needs to grow but that parts are all there. And I do think in these episodes you see someone who is more comfortable with who she is. She isn't struggling the way she was in Season 1.

Little things like Aeryn and John's comfort with each other is great. In some ways its the most romantic episode because the two are allowed to just be. You get why they become so dependent on each other later on. Because when they are together they are good.

When this first aired, I still didn't like Chianna very much. But this episode did help her grow on me. She was good. But the symbolism of what she was going through inside v. her outside ordeals wasn't exactly subtle.

The whole culture was awful. I didn't care if they all died.

Thanks for the hilarious recap.

Shame it's such a bad plot because it's probably got the best Aeryn-Chiana interaction of the whole show.

Ironically, the characterization is really good. It also shows one of John's less admirable traits - his sometimes obnoxious my way or no way attitude.

I've never minded this episode, actually.

Love the John and Aeryn interactions. I like the Chi and Aeryn moments and the John and Chi moments are very real to me.

But I'll confess that the alien settings are always less important to me than the character moments. That's true of all SciFi for me, I guess. It's more about how the alien settings impact the characters -- not so much how cool/annoying the aliens are.

Poor keckler. Just a Maldis ep to go!

Ugh. Don't remind me -- that's my next one. And I thought this one was trippy! I can't wait until I get to the meatier (for me) ones!

When they wrote this episode, they'd intended Nerri to be Chiana's sister. That adds a different kind of nuance to the Aeryn/Chi relationship, and why they might have written it that way for this episode. They didn't see fit to change other aspects of the episode just because Gigi requested the change (she has a brother and felt she could act more passionately to the loss if she was thinking of her baby brother). And yet, it's difficult to fully appreciate the John/Aeryn relationship without the fact that Nerri was her brother, and now John is sort of her brother too.

The only thing I like about this episode is ... wait a minute, it'll come to me ... oh, darn, I had it a minute ago ...

While it is true that just about every episode of Farscape has at least a few moments of good stuff, I'm afraid it gets overwhelmed by the overwhelmingly dull in this episode.

This is one of the very few episodes I just cannot watch all the way through. I try, but about three minutes in, I remember why this episode bores me so much.

Man, early season 2 had a few rough spots, didn't it?

BTW, great recap, keckler.

I'm with ya, Raksha. I love that part. It's so sweet.

Even more than that, I like this episode. I like the way John and Aeryn work together, I like that John is such a big brother to Chiana, and that Chiana goes to Crichton when she want to mourn her brother in the beginning and that he's the one she connects to in the end. I like the Aeryn and Chiana moments, too.

I don't mind the kids on the planet, but I liked the kids in Thunderdome, too. I like the writer's interpretation of how kids would mangle language if they had to teach it to each other when they haven't really had time to "study" it first.

I love Chiana, but I didn't heed your warning to stop reading, keckler! --But that's okay; I didn't get the feeling that you did her a injustice.

Is that what they were going for here, some kind of Thunderdome homage? Or just generic Aussie surfer-stoner types? Meh either way. It kind of kills the suspense when you want them all dead.

Gah, does that make me an ancient?

Coincidence: Doesn't John call Sykera "Thunderdome" in Thank God It's Friday, Again?

Yeah, and he also said, "Nobody watched the third one anyway," which is very appropriate for this episode.

Taking the Stone is not my favourite ep of Farscape but the John/Aeryn show and the incredible physical beauty of both of them make up for lots.The pretty will always make me smile - especially if these two actors are interacting and oozing chemistry. These two together - even on SG1 - light up the screen.

Some wonderful lines and snark Keckler- thanks for this and the laughs. All that bothered you about the ep I agree with - and I love Chiana - not in this ep except at the beginning when her disk calls and at the end when she walks off with John.

Love Chi's line to John in this ep - so true about their relationship " I'm not your kid,I'm not your sister, and I am only your tralk in your dreams". That line sticks with me whenever I see John and Chiana together - they have the second best relationship in Farscape IMO.

Keckler made me LOL with this very true comment about Rygel and his spoils ( a nod at ? Indiana Jones or some other Tomb Raider movie).



Hee hee. So true of Farscape. Wait - there are a few eps that may make you more nauseated.

Details in this ep - made me wonder first time round when at the end John asks Aeryn Premonition for up coming madness - although why such destructive behaviour? I thought the Harvey chip protected John? Or were the writers just working on this now?

Nice bit that foreshadows things we learn later abour John and Aeryn Understatement.

Love this bit ( thanks Keckler)


Plus how about the fact that the stoners call John and Aeryn "Ancient". They actually made Ben and Claudia look like grownups in these scenes - beautiful adults. Plus the Ancient mention always makes me think of the events of the entire series again.

Overall a silly ep with details and chemistry to make it all better. Keckler made me laugh too and thanks for that.

If I ever meet Keckler, I'm totally going to do the pose just to annoy her. In a friendly way of course; hate this episode and loved the recap.

Oh, this recap makes the episode tolerable. This is actually one of the first episodes of this show I saw and really, it's a wonder I came back for more. But as others have mentioned, the John/Aeryn chemistry is good in this episode and that is what probably drew me back.

And thank you for noticing the swinging penis-thing in the background! I hadn't heard anyone else mention it and was being to think I was imagining things. When I first saw this episode on DVD I noticed it thought "What the hell is that thing?" but I hated this episode so much that I couldn't be arsed to go back and watch the scene again.

I hate this episode. Even Coup by Clam is better than this. Even The Locket is better than this.

I suppose I should confess that I've never been able to love Chiana like the other characters. I don't know why. It's entirely possible that this episode is part of the reason. It just seems so out of place. It makes sense that someone as young and impulsive as Chiana would have an incident like this...but it just doesn't fit. If it was going to happen, it should have happened in late Season One, soon after she came on board Moya. I realize that the ending arc of Season One didn't really allow for such an episode, but it's even worse coming this late. After everything that's happened since her arrival, I simply have zero patience for Chiana's adolescent tantrum.

If they couldn't fit this kind of character-based episode earlier in the timeline, when we were first getting to know her, they should never have done it at all. The first episode revolving around Chiana's character should have been an entirely different story.

REWATCHTAKING

I agree it might have made more sense earlier, but the biggest problem with it is that it seems to be a blatant attempt by TPTB (maybe as influenced by Skiffy) to appeal to a younger demographic. In a way, Chiana was meant to do that, but in this episode it just seems like it could have been the sci fi version of 90210.

It took me awhile to warm up to Chiana, too, because of what seemed to be her demographically driven raison d'etre. At least she got past this stage; unfortunately, they continued to use her to boost Crichton's Captain Kirk street cred.. The one bright spot was that we learned a bit more about her backstory and her brother, and this was a storyline that might have been fleshed out to make her a more well-rounded character.

I've been thinking about this ever since I posted, trying to figure out why I can't love Chiana like I should. And I think I've figured it out: I consider her to blame for everything terrible that happens to John.

If Chiana hadn't opened that crate in A Bug's Life, there would have been no virus unleashed. No stand-off. No Aeryn getting stabbed. No desperate trip to the Gammak Base. No meeting Scorpy. No Aurora Chair. No four years of hell for John. He'd be happily cruising around the UT with wormhole knowledge he didn't even know he possessed.

Obviously, this is my own hang-up. I over-identify with characters I love, and I know that. I shouldn't blame her. And I do like Chiana. I just don't have much patience with her, even at the best of times.

But especially with this storyline, which gives her the maturity of a twelve-year old. She may be reckless and impulsive, but she's smarter than this. I have a hard time believing that even in the midst of her grief over Nerri's death, she could possibly think that staying with those stoner losers would be the right choice for her. Maybe everyone on Moya is "lame" but at least they don't go around eating mushrooms and jumping to their deaths.

And for someone who values her individuality over just about everything else, it also seems very out of character for her to voluntarily stay with a society where everyone acts the same, to the point of dying at the same age through that ridiculous ritual. She's simply trading one conformist society (on Nebari Prime) for another.


Edited because proper spelling is important.

But isn't that what rebellious adolescents do? They rebel against the traditions and expectations of their elders, by conforming with their peers, often in risky, life-threatening ways.

She seemed like a typical Earth teenager, actually, and that was my problem. We didn't need a typical teenager (or any teenager?) on board Moya.

What annoyed me, too, were those who thought she would make a good match for John while all this was going on. If that wasn't projection, I don't know what it was.

But Chiana's already done the rebellion thing. That's what got her imprisoned by her own people in the first place. After spending her life in a society that insists on conformity at any cost, she's finally found a place where she's free to be herself and go her own way...and she's going to throw that all over to join with these losers? I just can't believe that, not even allowing for her grief to be skewing her actions.



Absolutely. I never did like having Jothee on board.

Well, try thinking of it this way: Even if Chi and Rygel hadn't been up to mischief and snurching, Moya still would have gone to the Gammak base, to drop off Larraq and crew. What would have happened then is anyone's guess. Moya couldn't starburst, and might very well have gone into labor right there, just as she did in the regular timeline. And Scorpius would have had the intellent virus, which would have rained death and destruction on a vast area of the galaxy, likely embroiling the Moyans in the mess, anyway. By getting the intellent virus out of the hands of the PKs, Chi saved countless planets. And in any case, when she realized what she'd done, she volunteered to risk her life to save Aeryn and John both.

Would Scorpius have cared about the virus, though? He was focused strictly on wormholes. And really, I suppose it doesn't matter all that much...from the moment he went through that wormhole, John was destined to have an "interesting" life. Sooner or later fate would have caught up to him.

I was again struck by John's behavior in this episode. Ignoring Chiana in the beginning of the episode, even when it was obvious she was crying; normally John is more sensitive than most to other people's moods and it's not like him to turn aside from someone in need. There were more tears at inappropriate times. The incredibly stupid act of standing on that ledge with Molnon and daring the kid to jump. And of course eating the mushroom. His ability to process and react to events in a normal fashion is rapidly going south.

What's heartbreaking is that he knows it, too. Not only does he ask Aeryn if she notices anything crazy about his behavior, but I was deeply touched by that moment when she helps him up after his mushroom hangover...and he clings to her longer than was necessary. Already he's drowning, and Aeryn is his lifeline, the only thing that can bring him back to safer, shallow waters.

The first time I saw this episode, I half-expected John to jump himself, just because he was so reckless and out of control. Watching it again, I still feel that way, like he's only a hair's-breadth away from stepping right over the edge. Had this episode occurred later in the season, I don't think anything could have stopped him from doing it. He would have been just as desperate at Chiana to prove that he could still feel things, except for different reasons. Fortunately at this stage he's still enough in control that all we get is that horrid Peter Cotton-tailing at the end...which is one visual I would be perfectly content to never see again.

As I said pre-Rewatch, I like this episode. Maybe it's because I love Chiana and I love her relationship with John the best, that I enjoy their interaction. I don't think of it as a romantic relationship, but I love it for what it is.


I have to address this because it's a complaint I've heard before. You put it in the nicest terms I've seen, but when the show first aired, there was much accusing John of being a total asshole. So, of course, I'm here to defend him. First, John was trying to work on Moya's console. He had it torn apart, and, as Pilot tells us later, there was cause for him to get it back together since while it was "down" Moya and Pilot couldn't detect Chiana leaving. If they couldn't detect that, could they have detected a PK ship - or any other of the ships intent on ruining their lives - when approaching? Plus the dang thing kept shocking him. So, he was distracted. Also, when Chiana first enters the room, she starts out with, "What did you break this time, Crichton?" So, now, he's already predisposed to dismiss her because she's just being annoying while he's trying to get something done. We know there is more behind it, and generally even her teasing wouldn't bother Crichton, but he's distracted right now. Then, Chiana tries to get serious. I think she's already past the point where she can just say, "I want to talk" and that would get his attention. I think if she would have pursued it more, John would have realized that she was really upset and he would have helped her, but from the way she started the interchange, she would have had to have said more than, "Can we talk" to get him to leave the control panel, and Moya, exposed to danger. I agree that John is usually more sensitive to people's moods, but I think he has an excuse in this case. It really pisses me off that the others in the crew blame him.

Anyway, like I said before, I like this episode for all the John - Chiana - Aeryn interactions. It may not have been the best plot when I look at just that [although I didn't mind it, really], but, for me, the interactions between my three favorite characters made this episode one that I cherish.

There was? Huh. I mean, I guess I can see why people would say that, but as I hope my post made clear, I never thought he was being an asshole. Just someone who is a) distracted at the moment, and b) going crazy. I always just took it as another sign that his emotions and behavior are not where they should be, as a result of the Aurora Chair and the chip. Just one more symptom in a long line of many, showing us that things are not right with John.

The question then becomes whether you're looking at the scene w/ the benefit of hindsight, or as if it was your first time watching. My first time, I thought John was short w/ Chi. Yes to all Chillin said, but John knows Chi. Her starting off teasing him was not out of character. As soon as she asks if they can talk, he could have asked if it was important that they do it now or if it can wait. Instead he blows her off. Absent 20-20 vision in hindsight, I can understand why some thought he was being an asshole. (I don't go that far. Maybe b/c I certainly have the capability to be short w/ people who have just been teasing me when I'm in the midst of doing something important.) He had reasons that we could see at the time, but he didn't handle the situation as well as he could have. It is only after having seen what subsequently occurs, that we can look back and understand all, or at least most, of what was bothering John.

ChillinTheMost, I agree. I liked this episode on first watch. I was actually surprised later when I discovered it was one that other folks really didn't enjoy.

I still like it. I think the interactions between the characters -- especially, John & Aeryn and Aeryn & Chiana -- are really important to the rest of the series. It is definitely part of the progression of the relationships that developed over time.

And the druggies don't really bother me.

This is a good point. It's hard to separate my thoughts now from how I felt when I first watched the episode. I can't honestly remember what I thought...but I do know I never once hated John, so I guess I must not have thought he was an asshole toward Chiana, even on the first time around.

I can remember, though, being utterly impatient with the stoners, and also Rygel's storyline. And that hasn't changed one bit for recent viewings.

beckyg, I know you weren't saying that about John. I just wanted to address the issue and used your post as my kickstart. Sorry if it seemed like I was projecting it towards you, I tried to avoid that - unsuccessfully, it seems.


Me, too, ThigpensRevenge! I remember after watching it and being excited to get to the boards because everyone was knocking season 2 so much already. [I didn't agree with them about Mind the Baby, but I sort of did with Vitus Mortis.]And there were some very outspoken Chiana fans that complained during every episode that Chiana wasn't utilized enough. Imagine my surprise when even the Chiana-ites hated this episode! Yikes. I really suck at predicting which episodes people will like or not.

No, it's okay! I was just suddenly thinking, "Oh crap, what did I say that was misleading?" and I started second-guessing myself. *g*

The best thing about this episode? Knowing that Crackers Don't Matter comes next. :-)

I feel compelled to defend Chiana here. I think something got lost in the writing/direction and this episode became about John.

Not that the episode wasn't about John, but Rockne and David have both mentioned that they had a terrible time convincing their writing team that John is not the focus of every episode.

This episode was supposed to be Chiana's episode. Chiana's and Aeryn's.

Not John's episode and his relationship with Chiana, and his relationship with Aeryn.

There were some serious missteps here.

Chiana's brother had died. The brother that she loved desperately. Her only family. The one person she thought who might be able to help her deal with it, treated her like a jerk. And so she ran away.

But she didn't steal any old transport pod, and she didn't steal Farscape One.

Chiana stole Aeryn's prowler KNOWING that Aeryn would come and get it back.

This episode was supposed to be a Chiana/Aeryn episode. But... somewhere that focus got lost.

Which is too darn bad, because not only were the Aeryn/Chi moments really good, but there are far to few character moments between the two characters and I would have liked to have seen more.

Just my opinion but it should have be Aeryn watching Chiana jump at the end. Not John - who should have been stuck in his drugged stupor a bit longer...

I agree. This is one of the things that the show dropped the ball on, relationships between female characters. There are some wonderful moments, and unity between Aeryn and Zhaan is one of the high points of the series, but it's when the writers revert to "standard male hero around whom everything revolves" mode that the series sometimes falls short.

If this was truly the intention of the episode, boy, did they drop the ball on this one. Coming off of their bickering in Vitas Mortis, it would have been nice to see something build on that. Instead, Chiana taking the Prowler just seems like a teenage drama queen move. She could have taken the transport pod, but no, that's too normal -- that's "lame." She could have stolen Farscape One and gotten back at John for ignoring her in her time of need. But she knows good and well the way to cause the most kerfluffle is to steal Aeryn's Prowler. So that's what she does.



It certainly would have changed the overall feel of the episode, if that had happened. They could have kept the John/Chiana scene as she's burying the life disc. But if Aeryn had been there to witness Chiana's triumph, the entire relationship between the two women would have been irrevocably changed. Maybe the writers knew that and were hesitant to commit to that sort of thing, since they wanted to keep the focus on John. If that's so, that's a terrible shame, because they really missed out on a great opportunity.

I think it was because the stable of writers really didn't realise how different Farscape was... and couldn't wrap their minds around the idea that John was not the only POV character in the show.

Both Claudia and Gigi have mentioned that they regret not having many Aeryn/Chi moments in the show - and my thought is that the original intent of this episode was to advance/establish the Aeryn/Chi relationship. But... the ball got dropped.

However if you watch the episode for Aeryn/Chi interactions (and realise that Chiana would never have stolen Aeryn's Prowler if she didn't fully intend Aeryn to come and get it...) then the episode is a lot more interesting.

They could have kept the John/Stoner interactions intact (because that is important for foreshadowing John's mental disintegration) and the whole "celebrating life by living to the extreme" theme (which I liked) and just dropped some of the John/Chiana stuff and inserted more Aeryn/Chiana stuff.

But... didn't happen. Sadly.

P.S. If you switch on the subtitles for this episode it is so much more interesting. Both Das and Molnon have interesting lines that are almost (I found anyway) unintelligible due to stoner speak, accent and unusual phrasing. So yeah. Subtitles all the way. :D

PPS. I think both "Vitas Mortis" and "Taking the Stone" were supposed to reveal something profound about the nature of death and life in the Unchartered Territories. They both dealt with the same topic (death) from different angles after all. Unfortunately I never figured out exactly what it was they were trying to say. *sigh*

I completely agree about the subtitles. The first time I watched this episode, on my ill-gotten discs, I couldn't understand half of what was being said. This time around, with the Starburst DVDs, I was able to actually follow along, and that helped. A little.



The message from Vitas Mortis seems to be that your personal gain (including renewed life) is not worth having if it comes at the cost of other people's suffering. The message from Taking the Stone... yeah. I can't figure that one out, either. Carpe diem? Live life to the fullest because you never know when it's going to end?

Which actually means those two episodes contradict each other, doesn't it? VM says that taking things, including life, is bad. TtS says the opposite, to take while you still can.

Hmmm. Maybe that's the point. That two such diametrically opposed themes are the way of life in the Uncharted Territories. That in order to survive, you need to embrace both extremes, and be prepared for anything and everything.

That makes way more sense then anything I was coming up with. I like it!

But there is a metaphysical element to both episodes that I find intriguing, and I just can't put my finger on what (if anything) is the underlying theme connecting them.

Both episodes seem to touch on the connections between living creatures. In Vitas Mortis, it's the connection between D'Argo and Moya, that Nilaam unknowingly finds and follows, so that she taps into Moya's life force. In Taking the Stone, the connection is more a physical one, in the form of the life disc that bonds Chiana to Nerri -- although for the life of me I can't work out how that disc is actually supposed to work, so maybe the connection is more spiritual than physical.

Everything in Farscape has consequences. These episodes may just be one more way of showing that, albeit in a poor manner. We are all connected: Luxan and Leviathan, Chiana and Nerri, John and D'Argo, Aeryn and Chiana. Everything we do affects someone else, not just ourselves, and not just the one person we are dealing with at the time. Nilaam's greed affected Moya and everyone on board. Nerri's "death" affected Chiana and by extension, John, Aeryn and even Rygel, because they had to go planetside to bring her back.

And if we are all connected, and not just by wormholes, or by blood, or even by love, than it becomes more paramount than ever to stop and consider our actions, and our place in the universe.

The commonalities between Vitas Mortis and Taking the Stone are boundaries. The boundaries between you and others. The limits of what is acceptable to maintain your life, and what is not acceptable, i.e. to live at the expense of others. Nilaam was right to seize on her chance at life--but wrong to do so at Moya's expense. Wrong to think that she is somehow worthier of life than another. D'Argo, on the other hand, behaved well--he immediately rejected a vitality and joy that would come at the expense of another living creature. In Taking the Stone, the stoners were literally living at the expense of others. For each new life, another had to die. The stoners had no individual boundaries--they basically had to live for the group, and die for the group. Being in essence forced to take the shrooms, and jump, was the group's way of controlling their lives. Both Nilaam and the stoners were spending their days in ecstatic sensuality fueled by endorphins, without thought or purpose except pleasing themselves. But in doing so, Nilaam was killing Moya and the stoners were killing each other. So I guess the whole thing can be summed up by: "If I am not for myself, then who will be? And if I am only for myself, then what am I?"

Gah, this episode. I will admit, it does have some really nice moments with Aeryn/Chiana and Aeryn/John, but this one is a chore to watch. One of the big problems is that I just don't get it. I didn't get that someone has to die when a baby is born, I thought it was at a 'Gathering' or whatver and a certain number of people jump, some die, some don't. Which I ALSO didn't get, since it seemed like all they had to do was keep freaking humming and they would be ok. Plus I never got the feeling that Chiana was suicidal. She was deeply sad and was lashing out and whatever, but I couldn't connect to John's desperation. I understand a lot of his weird intense behavior has a lot to do with his post-Chair PTSD, but I got it more in VM than here. Maybe it was because we had Aeryn here and being all smart and logical.

Plus, why aren't more people dropping like flies from that mushroom? 1 in 4 get you dead and these weirdos are eating them all the time - at least it seems that way. It would have amped up the tension when John ate one if we saw 1 or 2 people actually die after eating them.

I did like the music when Chiana jumped.

Multiple post, so sorry!

I've never done this before and don't know what happened - apologies!

megsara, I agree with a lot of your comments. I was also deeply confused by what was going on with the Stoners, and STILL am, even after watching it with subtitles and having it explained to me. It just doesn't make sense to me. I do love the tiny Aeryn/Chiana bits they give us (and Aeryn talking to John about Chiana), and did get from the first watching that it was Aeryn Chiana hoped would come for her. I think John's brush-off hurt her enough to not want to have anything to do with him for awhile.

I also agree with Chiana not being suicidal as such. Reckless and desperate, but not with any sort of real plan. I think she wanted to prove that she was alive more than she wanted to die. I also wonder if John wasn't projecting a bit. Given what happens in the next episode, maybe he's becoming subconsiously aware of the chip and what the future may hold...

beckyg - Chiana had already done the rebellion thing with the Nebari, but since when do rebellious teenagers stop rebelling all at once ;-) It would have been unrealistic, IMO, if she was supposed to be this big troublemaker/rebel, who instantly settled down and matured when she came onto Moya. I do think that Chiana's overall storyarc shows a slow and believable maturation over the 4 seasons, while still remaining true to the character. I also never saw her as a tool for bringing in a younger demographic, though I'm not sure why. She certainly annoyed me in the beginning. But she grew on me, and now I love her like few other fictional characters. My mother was the same way, the first time watching she loathed this episode, loathed Chi, kept asking me when this annoying, skanky twit was going to leave. 2nd time around she was crying, and exclaiming, "Poor Chi! I just want to give her a hug!" lol

How old was Chiana supposed to be here? People are saying teenager...I guess I never saw her as THAT young. Probably 20 when she first showed up (not that that's much different from a teenager, but I'm wondering if others saw her as closer to 16/17 or something).

Mr. Arevhat has also brought up the "Chiana's responsible for everything bad because she opened the box" argument, and you can look at it that way, but it's a slippery slope, because if you keep going back, I'm sure you could blame everything that happened to John on Aeryn, Rygel, D'Argo, Pilot, Crais, and even John himself.

All in all, I don't care for this episode, despite John and Chiana being my favorite characters. It has some very good small moments, but is ultimately frustrating and unsatisfying.

You're right, it would have been unrealistic to expect her not to rebel from time to time. I don't have an issue with that. My main problem is that Chiana is too smart to settle down with those losers. She was trading one conformist society for another, and no matter how attractive it might have appeared to her in her griefstricken state (and I can't even bring myself to believe in that), eventually she would have chafed at the rules, and done her best to get out.

Even though she's the most impulsive of them all, Chiana is always thinking ahead. I simply can't believe she would ever think life among the stoners was a life worth having.

Actually, I don't think she did find it a life worth having. I think she appeared pleased with it, and insistent on staying, precisely because it was so pointless and miserable.

I have a very bad - and thankfully very occasional - habit at times when I'm feeling my most depressed. I get to a point where I pick fights with loved ones and will dig the hole deeper on purpose. I feel so badly about myself in those moments, so unloved, that I act as unloveable as I possibly can in an effort to push my husband/mother/friend as far away as possible, because if they can still reach out and love me when I'm in such a state - then I feel like I really am worth something and their love is genuine.

It's petulant, childish, masochistic, but it's my honest reaction to instense psychological and emotional pain. I'm aware that I'm doing it, and that it's wrong, and hurting both myself and others, but I truly cannot shut my mouth (the times I do manage to be quiet, I wind up physically self-harming).

That's what I felt from Chiana here - a kind of exuberant desperation, grasping at all the wrong things, because she needed them to fight for her, to prove they cared about her now that Nerri, previously the only other person in the universe who ever truly loved her I have my own issues with Nerri's behavior down the road, but as far as Chi is concerned at this point, his love for and protection of her was complete and unconditional has died - has abandoned her.

The more they have to fight with her to get her back on Moya, the more it proves to her that they care about her, and she is worth something.

I do think that if John and Aeryn had come down, picked up the Prowler, and said, "see ya" the first time Chiana said she wanted to stay, she would have taken her life in one fashion or another before very long.

Yes. I see Chiana in this epsiode exactly the same way. Chiana was in despair - the idea of flirting with death was attractive not just because of the adrenalinie rush when she survived (and Chi is an adrenaline junkie), but because she was bordering on suicidal. And if death did win... then that was not a terrible thing either (in her mind at that point).



I think one of the points of this episode was ethnocentrism. John's ethnocentrism specifically.

John had a terrible time accepting that other people and cultures have a right to make their own decisions - follow their own traditions, rules and norms, (in Chiana's case) her own feelings. No matter how much he could not (would not?) understand, or tolerate.

I think the writers were trying to explain to the audience that cultural practices may not be understood by outsiders - but that doesn't make it wrong, nor does it mean that it needs to change.

Even after Das figured out (how I don't know) what was causing the early deaths of the clanspeople, he still choose to 'take the stone'.

And later, when the situation was explained to the clanspeople, they all voted to keep jumping. To keep 'taking the stone'.

It was even explained why they thought that way. "He Took The Stone! He'll live forever now."

and later:

"All die, nixa. But you're frightened of it. Never knowing when it's going to happen. Should I do this? Or do that? Fear, nixa - it overwhelms. Not us. We live. We do what we want. Liberated, 'cos we Take The Stone. The dead jump the last."

Plus, I don't think that the balance between those living and those dying was quite so rigid. In fact, the first time we saw the clan 'celebrate' - or 'take the stone' as Molnon commanded - no one died. They all survived.

The 'celebrating' is in the living. Molnon said that he was scared that the next time he took the stone it would claim him. But getting smashed on the rocks is only if the jumper choose not to hum. Flirting with death.

Choosing being the operative word - because clan members could choose to die by 'taking the stone' (choosing not to hum) or, at approximately 22 cycles, succumb to long-term radiation exposure.

Janixx: This happen to all of us - at 22 cycles, if we do not Take The Stone. Gardas and nixas here don't like seeing this. So we go away, hide. Make ourself lost.

So either individuals 'take the stone' or they are condemned to die long and painful deaths from radiation exposure. Plus (and what is probably worse) since the rest of the clan does not want to be reminded of what is in store for them if they don't accept the rules of the clan, they are expelled from their society. Forced to live on the fringes - a kind of half death and watch their friends and family live to the extreme while they slowly die of radiation.

Heck, John even chose not to accept treatment for his radiation exposure in Icarus Abides - he chose to die sooner rather than later. He made the same choice.

I don't think "Taking the Stone" is about whether or not the audience can internalise the thought processes of the clans people - and take comfort from the idea that underneath we are all the same - it is about the audience (and John) needing to recognise that as a society the clans people have a right to make their own decisions and choices - and individuals have a right to function within their own society abiding by those rules.

John (and the audience) don't get to judge.

TtS is a difficult episode to wrap my mind around - but I think I like it for that reason specifically, 'cause it asks more of me than just acceptance.

I see what you're saying, Arevhat. And we know that Chiana does lash out, both physically and emotionally, when she is hurting. I still can't believe she would be suicidal, though. I just can't make it work with the way I view her character, even allowing for her grief over Nerri.



This is one of those times where our Western baggage comes into play, I think. The behavior of the clan seems very cult-ish, in the worse sense of the word. I'm thinking Jonestown, here. People knowingly taking their own lives. Obviously there are huge differences between the stoners and Jonestown, but it's hard to view the clan and their behavior in a way that isn't negative. Maybe if they had showed one of the Lost Ones truly ill and suffering, it would be easier to understand how the rules and traditions came into being, how they were meant to actually protect the clan from long-term suffering. But the way the episode stands now, it just looks like a bunch of stoned, slacker teenagers willingly jumping to their deaths - just because it's always been that way. I don't get a sense of any long-standing tradition, or a reverence for those traditions.