Continued from the Confidential Informants thread:



This reminds me of a great scene from Season 2 where Frank goes to see a friend of his about the budget for the grain pier and the dredging canal. He asks the guy about where his son is going to college (Princeton). Frank tells him (from this transcript site):



The point here is that reference points matter. It's not like Nick or Ziggy spent time with Michael and Dukie to realize that their situations are much better in comparison. People tend to be products of their immediate environment and it can take a lot to overcome some of that inertia (which can be anything from not going to the right schools, strong family traditions, parental expectations, absent parents, alcoholic or drugged up parents, teenage pregnancy, drug addiction).

ETA: Also, Ziggy was a brat in so many ways. But he also had a somewhat absent father and a mother hooked on pills.

Love this topic!!

Just wanted to add, if it wasn't already, didn't Ziggy tell Frank in prison that he knew he wasn't his real father? Which was all setup by the, ahem, dick size evidence.

Whoah Transcripts- didn't know they existed.

Probably a wise decision to make this thread, seen as each season was decidedly different and everyone seems to have a different opinion (of four options, that is).

Alas I have no single prefered season- the 1st was the new and introduced us to all the characters. We had to figure out if Omar was an asshole or the kick ass dude he is, we had to get used to the fact that we dont always see a crime (like Little Man) and have to get used to a huge amount of slang to understand what happened (unlike Law & Order, for instance). Stringer was far less important. etc. etc.

2nd season introduced us to characters we weren't going to see again- the stevedores. We had the brilliant story of Frank, whose dealings with the Greeks was for me like Faust. We had Stringer dupe Omar into nearly killing Mouzone, and Bodie become far more likeable- almost redeeming himself of being the one who killed Wallace. We had McNulty and Daniels argue less, which I liked. I also liked Beadie and naturally we had Bunk the Lacrosse player.

3rd season was less focused on the detail (unlike the two prior seasons) and now throwing in all sorts of things: politics, Colvin's bizarre sociological experiment, the up and comer Marlo, Cutty's redemption, etc. McNulty's persona became crystalised and clear- he was now a much sadder individual than first imagined. Oh and of course we had the relationship between Avon and Stringer- the best part in my opinion. Yeah season 3 had its bad points, getting used to the egotistical Carcetti and his annoying accent was a stretch, but I managed.

oh and turn away all people who haven't seen all of the fourth season
4th season became even less focused on the detail (which was gutted, essentially) and had a massive gamble of putting fuck up Prez and crazy Colvin into the centre stage. The kids were heart breaking, of course, but the direction never felt quite as clear as any other season. That said it made up for apparent aimlessness with all sorts of other things: More Chris Paltrow, the introduction of an even more deadpan character than Bunk (Norman), and a ten times better finale than any other season.

Yeah as far as quality goes comparing the lot is hard. Oh and rebuke me harshly ladevotchka if I misinterpreted what you meant by "compare".

Hee! Aw, no rebuke intended. I guess I had a more broad scope in mind, where we could just talk about overarching themes across seasons rather than relying on the character-specific or episode-specific threads. We have a thread for "social issues" raised in the show, but I wanted a more general venue where we could talk about multi-seasonal arcs and other stuff. I meant more of a thematic comparison, rather than one on quality.

ETA: And while I'm at it, I also have no favorite season. In fact, my favorite thing about the show is that while each season has a distinct theme, they can all be taken as one long narrative. The quality does not waver.

I was thinking of McNulty and his self-destructive arc, and how he rescued himself from it. On most shows, his drinking would begin affecting his performance, he'd be confronted by the bosses, and would bottom out and then mend his ways. But that story line has been done many, many times on other shows. Instead, McNulty seems to figure out (with the help of Freamon, Daniels, and Beadie) what is eating him alive, and causing all the drinking and acting out.

It will be interesting to see if he's able to keep it up in Season 5.

Lade, the inability for compison is an excellent point, I hadn't really considered that. Also, to be fair, Ziggy and Nick do have clear interaction with Cheese and Prop Joe's guys, so it's not like their completely in the dark, either. I suppose I empathize with the street characters because they're all about survival, doing whatever it takes to make it. Nick and especially Ziggy, on the other hand, do what it takes to get by, and otherwise have some fun. So even if they don't make the comparison, I do, and they suffer by it, just in terms of dramatic impact, I feel. I felt much worse for even someone like Wee-Bey headed to jail than I did Ziggy.

And I have to come back to Frank's quixotic nature: he clearly sees the writing on the wall, what with the "Piers full of robots!" Which is why I don't really understand his attraction to the docks, aside from (I like typing this) the quixotic quality of it. Shouldn't he be pushing his family into a different career path? Consider Bey and Namond for a moment. Wee-Bey is totally a successful gangster - his house and his babyDragonLadyMama's house are the nicest on the block, and he's still alive in his thirties. At first, he's with Namond doing what he does, too - but I think he made the realization that he didn't really want Nay dealing well before Colvin came to visit him, and in the end, he saw past his own hubris and did right by his son. Perhaps this is a suggestion of the importance of family, and the dockworkers are being faulted for making their institution their family instead of the biological version...which is actually pretty interesting, I'll grant.

Candy makes the facetious suggestion in CI thread that Nick could have been a janitor - I don't see why that's somehow worse than a life of crime? (less glamorous, for sure, but...) Nick's entire problem at the beginning of the season is that he can't get steady work at the docks - I'll grant you janitorial isn't exactly a dream job, but it's a steady paycheck, which is what they should have been after. I would argue, though, that his condition was totally different from Cutty's - Nick had a support system, and he also did not have any sort of criminal record, nor anyone pressuring him to get into crime the way Cutty was initially pressured.

Bunk and Omar kinda work the same way - maybe they went to the same high school, but I always made the assumption that Bunk graduated, and Omar didn't. In fact, this is sort of what I'm saying - everyone we've met who grew up in hardcore, inner-city Baltimore has either turned out to be a junkie, drug dealer, or cop (cuz, also Carver). But all these characters - Bunk, Carver, Avon, Stringer, Omar, Bodie, D'Angelo, etc. - they all worked their ass to become something, and tried to make the most of their situation. Nicky and Zig just sort of fuck around, at least from what I could tell. I guess this makes them tragic in one sense, in that they simply don't seem to have the capacity to improve their situation, but it feels less dramatically on point, I suppose, then others that have the internal capability to improve their situation, but cannot escape their environment - I guess that's what's bugging in the end, is I never felt there was the suggestion that the younger stevedores couldn't have escaped that world - the older ones, no, but the younger ones?

I also just wanna express my mirth at Candy's post from the other thread, which is the Britishest thing I've read in a while (I mean that as a compliment). I hope people on this forum watch Family Guy, cuz calling Dookie and Michael "chaps" tickled me in a way that if Loretta tickled me in that way, I'd say, "oh yeah, that's the spot." :)

Candy's wisdom from Confidential Informants Thread

Gob.

Well I'm not so sure that Cutty and Nick are that different. First off, Cutty has a support system- the Barksdales. How he got there is unknown but from what we see they take care of him pretty well. Furthermore when he decides he wants to quit they don't exactly go all Robert Prosky from Thief on him and shout "YOUR IN THIS FOR LIFE!! YOUR SOUL IS OURS!!!". In fact, they say something more along the lines of "All right", so not a great deal of pressure. When Cutty goes to open a gym he gets 20,000 to help get it started from Avon. True Avon probably wipes his ass with 20,000 daily but its not exactly like he went all alone into the world. Yes you could argue that of course Cutty is getting a bit of money and is allowed to leave because he put the work in, but seen as we dont really know what Cutty was doing prior to his sentence its hard to tell.

I concur with the "internal capacity" paragraph to an extent. As I said in the CI thread we are naturally going to feel more for Wallace when the streets he walks down could get him killed. The Docks are a dying place, but it isn't the Wild Wild West. No fear of randomly getting shot in the leg for talking to a young man (though I guess you could lose a leg from a freak accident involving a large box). I think that freedom to breathe without the fear of being either taken into a gang or being killed by a gang makes, for a lot of people, the stevedores less compelling. And as I said before Frank brings the Greek and his ilk to him, to save his institution. He wasn't forced into it like Dukie. He was like a far less severe version of Michael's dillemma. Perhaps, unlike the Barksdales, School, Cops, the Stevedores were the only ones that were going to be extinct from a slow process. Sure the Barksdales had a similar thing happen to them, but theirs had more to do with bullets and handcuffs, not globalisation and robots. So again, naturally its going to be less engaging.

So without the need to dodge bullets naturally Ziggy and Nick fucked around. Hell, we saw them loads of times at the bar drinking, doing really stupid shite (that honour goes more to Ziggy), and just generally slouch about. No fear of murder, just death by starvation. Needless to say when two separate worlds met, the street and the stevedores- that is Cheese and Ziggy, the latter was totally unexpecting such violence.

Oh and as for my janitor comment- its certainly better to be a janitor than being a guy who brings over women for the sex slave trade or selling drugs to kids. And forgetting the glamour of being a gangster (pardon me, gangsta'), being a janitor doesn't gain that much money. Money needed for putting his kid into school and keeping his wife (who seemed somewhat despondent at his lack of cash in an early scene). No dodging bullets, just good ol' fashioned poverty, which I for one can identify with a lot easier than being on a corner dealing drugs. The younger people working at the docks behaved less like they gave a shit about the docks, but in my opinion in that episode where the young lot were sitting beside the older docking chaps (yes, laugh away at my vernacular Gob =) ) I think it showed that they were going to end up like them and that the older chaps were like the youngins' back in the day.

More wisdom from Candy:



My point being, the Barksdales are not a support system. Just ask Wallace, or Lil' Man, or D'Angelo, for the matter (or, Avon and Stringer themselves, while we're at it). They helped Cutty when he left prison because: a) he used to be a soldier (I believe it makes reference to him being in for murder, in fact), and b) they were short on good people and needed the help. He got lucky with Avon and the gym, because Avon wipes his ass with that kind of money, and he used to box - you could probably make the argument Avon liked the idea of being able to find out which of his future employees was the toughest.

The scene with the old and young stevedores I coded differently, as a melancholy scene where the older stevedores realized they weren't going to be passing along what they'd created to their children - sort of the ultimate capitulation of the American dream. And they didn't know where to go next.

And that's what bugs me. It always seemed fairly apparent to me that not only the viewer, but the characters themselves pretty much realized that the docks were fucked from day one. And I get where Simon is making his point about how institutions fail the average American worker. But I just feel the whole thing would have been compelling if we saw one of the two young'uns at least try and better themselves in some way. Like, if Nicky had spent the first few episodes going to juco, then had to drop out because he needed to be working more. As it stands, it seems like they basically realized they had no chance for any sort of advancement, and then...just sort of ran with that.

There's a line at the end of season 4 that's among my absolute favorite in the entire show. It's when Wee-Bey is talking to Dragon Lady: "Who the fuck would wanna be that if they could be anything else, De'Londa?". See, the characters on the street at least have the sense to understand that what they do is crappy, and if there's something else they could be doing, they would - there just doesn't seem to be any avenue out (I can't think of any Wire character that perfectly illustrates this, but if you've read The Corner, DeAndre McCullough showcases it pretty well). Ziggy and Nick just seem resigned to their crappy fate, and it I feel like it weakens the story somewhat, in that it's hard to really call this an institution screwing over its members when the future of the institution is more interested in getting ducks drunk than, y'know, contributing to their institution in any meaningful way.

The docks and the game are both fucked from Day One. The participants in both, though ultimately hopeless, are just trying to preserve their institutions as they know them, for the duration of their lives and *hopefully* the duration of their kids. The reason they don't flee (even assuming the white stevedores can and the black corner kids can't) is because they like their institutions. Nick loves talking about his IBS roots, and Locust Point, and drinking at the bar. Bodie loves his corner crew, loved working for the Barksdales, loves being a soldier.

They don't subscribe to the capitalist idea of pulling yourself up by the bootstrap the old fashioned, go to school way cause it don't mean shit to them. They get rich breaking the law, and at least for some fleeting moments it looks like they can buck the odds and sustain it. But in the end, they're just modern day serfs.

And look what happened to Bodie when his Barksdally' way of life was changed by a change of management (Marlo- who behaves quite like what I'd imagine the robots working the docks would). He ended up having a bit of a meltdown, kicking a car in and then subsequently shot wildly into the night. It's that sort of implosion of when the institution you were brought up in has been erased and you are forced to be something else that is what makes the stevedores understandable.

Like Bodie, New Charles (the chap who lost his leg) would go apeshit if someone just told him "oh that place you've worked at your whole life is gone now, replaced by high tech machinery, go mow a lawn for a living". Colvin pretty much hated his job as a cop and even he found it initially difficult to adapt to not being able to arrest a woman beater when he worked in that hotel. Even McNulty couldn't resist using his skills to figure out who was robbing the churches when he was a beat cop. And if you are annoyed about the Stevedores being resigned and not trying to be anything else: look at Poot. He knows the "game is rigged" but he just plods along, happy as the day is long.

But I think there are other reasons to fuck up besides dodging bullets. I mean, your physical life may not be in danger - but Ziggy is very very screwed up emotionally and psychologically and that is still screwed. That he didn't die in that season was completely random. He practically had a death wish - and he had it because he too was up against something he couldn't get a handle on - just a different something than Wallace was up against.

And GOB - it wasn't Candy who said that thing about Avon and Stringer and survival and all. That was me. And you're a smart guy so if you think that's a smart thing then I want to take credit for it. What can I say? Sometimes I'm really shallow.

I think some of this is because of the way the workload at the dock changed. Frank's generation grew up knowing that if they could get a job at the docks, their future was secure. The work was steady and paid well, without needing a college education. They raised their kids with the same assumptions. But somewhere during Nick and Ziggy's lives, this changed. An occasional day without any ships to load became several. Men that used to work hard almost everyday became that men that spent many days sitting around, hoping for a chance to work. I think Nick and Ziggy were stuck between the old assumptions about what they would do for a living, and the current day seduction of working just enough to pay for the bar tab from the non-working days.

One thing Simon does is give us little glimpses of how insular these communities are. Bodie is shocked to find out that he can't listen to the same radio station all the way up to New York. Nick is utterly unprepared for how much his aunt's old house will go on the market for. Wallace finds life at his country grandmother's very boring. Herc and Carver and their wives run into the corner boys at the movies, and all parties are stunned. So many characters are locked into their own little world, and don't have the benefits of seeing that there is a life outside of what they know.

First off, tpp, my apologies. I've made a huge mistake.

Secondly, I've been thinking about this, and here really is my problem. The central thesis of the show, from everything I can gather, is the idea that institutions, and specifically the ones Simon is examining, have become their own monsters, and basically represent a betrayal of the "American Dream." On one hand, season 2 explores this amazingly well in the character of Frank, someone who is not able to pass on his qualities and his life to his children. My problem, though, is that I don't think either of the younger Sobotkas were really capable of achieving it. Take a guy like Wallace (and I know I've been down this road before) - I would honestly believe, in another environment, Wallace would have led a completely different life. The same could be said for a lot of different characters. Likewise, take Carcetti and the school board budget in season 4 - the institutional reality of his situation (not wanting to short-circuit his political career by taking state money) means his dream of truly making Baltimore a better place dies, but at least he was capable of it. I can't imagine a situation into which Nick and Ziggy could drop into to where they would be anything but fuck-ups, and thus, in them, I don't necessarily see the same betrayal that is wrought throughout other characters, including Frank.

Mutante, that's a seriously excellent point about needing to belong. When I re-watch season 2 (going through the whole series), I think this forum will have given me a new appreciation for Frank Sobotka, if not the entire dock storyline. I would say, though, that historically, pull-'em-up-by-their bootstraps types aren't really so educated; in fact, they tend to go the route of the Barksdales. I was mentioning the saga in another thread about the Kennedys. Joe Kennedy pulled himself up by his bootstraps by bootlegging alcohol illegally, and then his children were educated. John Rockefeller wasn't educated. Andrew Carnegie wasn't educated. Nor were Carlo Gambino, or Meyer Lansky, or Lucky Luciano. These people all did whatever it took to make their way in the world. Bootstrappers are rarely educated, and they are generally serfs - and the dream, generally speaking, is to make sure your children are not. Which is why one character I have great respect for is Wee-Bey, who actually may have landed in such a place that his kid may be the lone one who escapes the serfdom of the streets.

Candy, I don't think it's at all fair to compare Ziggy and Nick to Poot. Perhaps the actual characters have the similiarities you mentioned, but from a narrative perspective, serve completely different purposes. I don't think Poot's ever even been the focus of a scene - he's just complimentary, an echo chamber for the significanly more important stories of Bodie and Wallace to bounce off of. Ziggy and Nick were central characters whose lives we explored in a great deal more detail. In fact, I think you could make that comparison - Ziggy and Nick are, respectively, perhaps the Wallace and Bodie of the docks.

My nephew raved about this show and told me I should watch. I know zippo about it, so I thought I'd come here and ask you loyal viewers why I should get the dvds(from the library) and jump in. Convince me everyone!
Do each season have a different arc or is it one continuous story?

It's a little of both. It's a look at the impact of drugs on a city. Each season we see it from a different viewpoint. Browse through the forums recaps & you'll see why we love it.

Moving on - if only temporarily - to season 4 - I've watched 8 episodes now - and honestly, I'm not as involved as I was in the other three seasons. The pace feels different to me somehow.

Possibly it's the total lack of sympathy I feel for Marlo or Chris or that awful little girl with the nail gun. It seemed to me that when I met Barksdales crew, they interested me as characters whether I "approved of" or "understood" what they were doing or not. This time, here are three characters I actually hope die soon - and one of them is barely more than a child. This seems like a flaw in the writing to me.

I do love the 4 boys, but their stories too don't seem to have the flow or the rhythm of previous seasons. I do think now that they are completely distinguishable, one from the other - but -

I wonder if I just wish that a greater proportion of screen time was spent on these kids. In addition to loathing the three characters I mentioned above, I don't care much about Carcetti's story either. It's mildly interesting but not at all emotionally engaging. I've hated Rawls and Burrell for three seasons now so I'm not too interested in them either. I think Herc's boring too.

Daniels, Pearlman, Lester, Griggs, Bunk, OMAR OMAR OMAR, Bubs, the boys, Prez - these are the characters I care about. I don't know - so far, this season is lagging behind the others for me.

tpp, I gotta say, season 4 was my favorite pretty easily, and that's definitely saying something. I think you just have to take it on faith that, to quote a certain bespectacled bad-ass detective, "All the pieces matter." I always coded it as Marlo and Carcetti serving as backdrops for the boys; they are the people who define the world in which the boys live (it will make sense with Carcetti in an episode or two, I forget exactly where).

Season 4 kind of felt like a master's thesis to me - Simon/Burns spent three seasons showing us this world, and now they come along and really, truly explain just how fucked up it is by taking these four kids, who we meet as more of less blank slates, and explaining how the environment they live in leads them to become the sort of adults we've already met throughout this show. It's worth paying particular attention to the school administrators; I went to an inner-city high school not unlike Tilghman, and let me tell you, those depictions are dead-on. The thing I will say is that season 4 felt a great deal more self-aware to me; the first three seasons do a better job of simply telling a story and letting the message seep through, while season 4 felt like it was written with a more concerted effort to get certain messages across.

As for Chris, Marlo and Snoop ("that awful little girl with the nail gun" - hee) - they seem one-dimensional, but I think you have to try and look at it from a longer perspective. Basically? Marlo=Avon, Chris=Stringer, and Snoop=Wee-Bey. Simon is making a point about the invetability of change and the general frailty of position of the corner, and he had to create a force that could believably win out against the Barksdales without changing the nature of the people we'd come to know over three seasons. I think you have to see it that way, where the street goes in cycles - Avon and Stringer reached the end of theirs, and now a new one begins. Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-sekennnnnnnnnnya...(sorry, had to).

GOB: That is encouraging. There's no question but that I'm going to stick it out. But in a way, maybe you hit the nail on the head (OMG, did I just write that?) - too much "exposition" - not enough "storytelling" ??

Gob - Starting S4. What is it that the dealers are yelling? I've been unable to figure it out. I assume your last sentence is referring to that?

Hehe, no, that was a lame-ass reference to the Lion King, as I was positing that Marlo replacing Avon at the top starts anon a new cycle in The Cirlcle of Slangin'. It's almost so beautiful, it deserves another Elton John song, except I imagine the characters on the Wire would take exception to that. No idea off the top of my head what they're yelling, but I imagine it's the brand name of what they're selling - it usually is.

Maybe they could use the fake Elton John song Ray Lewis sang in the Saturday TV Funhouse cartoon "Ray of Light."

I too, would have to say a little bit of both. There are many, many characters and they come in and out of prominence as different stories and seasons play out. Even if I didn't find the Baltimore story compelling, I think I would have fallen for the intelligent writing and the superior acting. There are no cheap jokes, no selling out of a story's integrity for the sake of a big (temporary) payoff. You can't have this show on in the background; you have to actually watch, but that time paid being attentive is worth it, because it enables you to make a connection back to a previous season, or to see the parallels between characters and situations. It's rich enough that most of us have rewatched it. I hope to watch it all again before Season 5 airs.

Over four seasons, Simon and company have developed a tapestry, not a snapshot or a photo album.

I'll cast my vote for Season 4 being my favorite, for sure. It's the best executed of the four seasons IMO even if it ultimately feels like the story arcs are a setup for Season 5.

Season 2 is a close second, and really I just like S4 a smidgen more. I also think S2 is the funniest. Which brings up a question, which season do you guys think was the funniest?

Interesting question . . . I never thought of comparing the seasons that way. I certainly see what you mean about Season 2. McNulty's forced servitude on the harbor boat, and his efforts to get off of it, are pretty funny as a whole, even though there aren't a lot of laugh-out-loud moments. Most of what Ziggy does is funny and sad at the same time. The battle between Valchek and the union, and the idea that the whole detail started up again because of resentment over a stained glass window, also amused me. And I can't forget the world-traveling police van.

I thought Brother Mouzone was pretty damn funny, especially with his interaction with Method Man. Also, his assistant (D'angelo McCulloch, whatever his name is in the series) scoping out the gay bars was priceless. Plus McNulty's "What could I do?" look when he's alone with those two women in the brothel.

Oh I think Season 2 is easily the funniest (though I can't decide which season is the most depressing) if only for Omar's testimony in All Prologue and his shopping experience with McNulty. "Either that or I'll be down with Muffy at the club".

Brother Mouzone wins at life! "Your homophobia is so visceral." I love Lamar too. "See that? I haven't even gone into the club yet and you're already calling me a cocksucker!" (though that was I think from Season 3?)

Yes, it was Season 3 for that quote, since Mouzone was sending Lamar into the clubs so he could find Omar and make his proposal to take down Stringer Bell.

I recently read Simon considers Season 4 a prequel in that he wants the viewer to consider where the Avons and Stringers and Omars come from. I think you are right that the Marlo plot shows the ruthless emergence of a new drug crew rising to take the place of the Barksdale empire, but more than that I think the four boys are what Simon wants us consider. Who among them are Avons and Stringers and Omars? The why of their various lives gives the viewer background to consider the how the corner and the game will shape the what of their future.

I think it is smartly done pairing the two levels of street evolution because we also must extrapolate backwards and wonder who among the four boys is Marlo or Chris because their virtually blank back story gives them little depth. I think Simon wants us to use the four boys to project a context and history for all his corner characters particularly Marlo and his new crew.

To briefly return to the question of Season Two’s important. . .

I agree that the primary focus is on the death of work in blue collar America. Simon uses the docks and the union as an example of the disappearing well paid, low skill union jobs that sustained most urban communities in the 20th Century. Frank doesn’t push his kids to do something else because the docks and union is all he knows much like Wallace and D’Angelo’s whole world is the West Side drug trade.

But I also think it is impossible to watch Season Two without race playing a key role on both a micro and macro level. I think TPTB had to expand at least one season into white community or The Wire is subject to charges that it stereotypes African-Americans as dealers, criminals, and addicts. Season Two further fleshes out the game and the city of Baltimore. It shows how drug are rooted in the white community. It also showed the method of how drugs are imported and distributed to various dealers by wealthy and dangerous syndicates that are run by whites. I think it is important to the authenticity to shows that a considerable amount of money and power behind the drug trade often comes from a white criminal element like the Greek. It allows the show to proceed without having wrongly pigeon holed drugs as quote-unquote black problem.

A lesser show would have given an episode to explain all these critiques of the drug trade. The Wire gives them a whole season.

Just to touch on the race aspect of stevedores vs. corner boys, there's a great scene with Sobotka and Ott (I wish I could remember it clearly) where basically I thing Sobotka is defending his stance to stay in charge, because if they don't succeed in getting those measures passed, "we'll just be a bunch of niggers down here... pardon my langauge." And Ott replies, "Or we'll look like a bunch of Polacks... pardon my language." Even though it comes off as an equivalence of the two racial epithets, it shows that even though Polacks could be considered the "niggers" of Caucasians (Ott's words), they're still white: or at least, white enough for a Polack to use "niggers" and get his point across to his peer, who happens to be black.

(I have to say, I love that this show never shys away from those subtle racial nuances that exist in everyday life. Even though it's a little hard to discuss them.)

However, I don't think it's easy just to say that the dockworkers have more opportunity than the corner boys in one important sense: both come from an institution that by nature teaches its members to not respect the government and the law. Obviously, those in the game want nothing to do with cops, but also remember that the union members have their own insulated world where they are quite brazenly against the government agencies that would bust up a union. "I plead the fifth commandment!" Of course, there's rules and laws that are being obeyed, but in both cases it's only to keep the heat off, whether or not you're actually engaged in illegal activity or not. In other words, a stevedore might be a law-abiding citizen who never took anything out of a can, but no way in hell does he testify against another union brother who is. It's similar to the code of "No Snitching" that is such a big theme of Season 4.

Lisa - an excellent point about the kids. Something I processed throughout the season, but never really fully gave voice (voice in my head) to. There's that scene in season 3 where Avon and Stringer and in Avon's apartment, and Avon talks about how they used to run around as kids, and how strange it is that they winded up where they are. In retrospect, that's clearly an introduction to a lot of what happens in s4, to the extent that at one point I thought maybe Michael and Namond would team up with Bodie and go after Marlo (sigh...). But definitely feeds into the endless circle of violence thing.

As far as season 2, the race point is excellent, but it's let down a great deal by the character of the Greek, I think, which is just complete bull-plop. Him and his organization. The kind of weight he's theoretically moving is really only done by Latin American cartels and the mafia. Being a giant-ass dealer of heron and coke requires access to fields of poppy and coca, a massive amount of refinery space to transform the raw materials, and the manpower to keep it all secure and sneak it into the country. I just never bought the idea that an old Meditteranean dude and the Warner Bros. exec in "Entourage" who hates Vince are enough to be major suppliers for, basically, the entire city of Baltimore. I mean, granted, maybe Simon and Burns know things that I don't, but I've never even heard it suggested anywhere that a major distributor of illegal narcotics would: a) come anywhere near the United States if he didn't have to, or b) leave himself as vulnerable as he's been in the diner and around various dealers. I know the whole Omar "sometimes who you be be enough" thing goes a certain way, but really? This guy is importing by the ton, living in Baltimore, and somehow maintaining his steady supply overseas without ever facing any sort of detection?

In short (okay, long), the Greek was one of two decisions Simon/Burns have made that felt overly television-bla to me, if you catch my drift. The other was Bunny just happening to end up doing his project at the same school as the kids, but I can live with that, cuz it paid off. But the Greek felt like an attempt to make a really cool, bad-ass character, a kind of Baltimorean Keyser Soze, and while Keyser Soze is a really fuckin' cool character, those people don't exist in real life. They even copied right down to the balding mouthpiece.

Mutante - no question the stevedores have more oppurtunities. Most of them have parents and families. They don't appear to be raised (if, say, Ziggy's car is any indication, among many) in the abject poverty of the streets. Also, their goal is to make money legally - remember, Frank merely wants to open up more port space so he can create more legal jobs, while the dealers are doing something intrinsically illegal to begin with. They don't stop unloading the docks when Beadie shows up. And more importantly is the snitching thing you bring up, which is not merely part of season 4. Is snitching a huge deal to the unions? Absolutely. But, I mean, do you think Horseface or Ott would have whacked Frank for turning in his own union? There's a code on the docks, and it said (or at least, I saw it saying), you don't turn in your brother. This is NOT how the street works.

To fully give this breadth, you have to back to the first episode. I honestly can't remember if it was William Gant that Kima discovered had been killed by a stray bullet, but regardless, the Barksdales took credit for it. I think most people are familiar with the Stop Snitchin' videos which emanated from Baltimore, and the dealers in The Wire follow that code - they kill everyone they even think might be snitching (if you'll recall, D goes soft in season 1 on two of his people because he simply assumes Avon and Stringer will kill them if he tells them the truth). This is a totally, totally different world than the dockworkers - the dealers are prepared to kill adolescents, family members, anyone they think might put them in. While I'll grant there's pressure in the docks not to talk, it's not remotely the same kind. The isolation of the docks derives from a sense of camaraderie that extends beyond race; the isolation of the street comes from a complete unwillingness to trust anyone at all, regardless of race or anything else.

I can definitely see your point, but people like the Greek certainly do exist (I lived in Beirut for a long time, where the Russian mafia is very active and trafficking of women from Eastern Europe was sadly very common) and they do come to the US. Interestingly, there are criminals involved in drug trafficking around the world from countries you wouldn't imagine (for example - many drug dealers in Lebanon are Jordanian). As a country (the US I mean) we are so obsessed with Arab and Muslim terrorists, that European criminals get very little coverage. We never find out the Greek's real ethnicity (I assumed he was Turkish but he could be from a number of places). But European criminals are definitely out there and can easily slip under the radar (and are most often pursued by Interpol). I loved that the Wire decided to explore this precisely because it's something we might think isn't common, but in fact exists and happens more often than we know.

Lade - my point was more about the Greek's lone nature. You yourself mention the Russian mafia - my contention isn't that he's not South American (for example, all the drugs in the French Connection were grown in Turkish poppy fields) so much as that I just don't buy how low-key his operation seems to be in comparison with the amount of product he supposedly supplies. In fact, I can tell you in New York at least, the Russian and ex-Soviet mafias are really horning in on the Italians; however, they also travel in large packs, and there isn't some mystical head of the organization that like two people actually know, which is more my issue. I just don't buy the idea that one guy and one subordinate are capable of the manufacture and wholesale distribution of enough drugs to supply the entire city of Baltimore, and it never really felt like there was any sort of real organizational structure in place.

But it wasn't just the two. They had a bit of a operation going with that woman, double G, Boris, the Israeli dude, and apparently a lot of contacts. Also, they weren't the only drug distributors, but had the really good product, which matters a great deal in the drug game. Prop Joe was their main customer and was able to lord his position over everyone else because the product he got from the Greeks was far superior to what everyone else was getting (remember - Avon originally dealt with Columbians in NY who cut him out when he got arrested and they were hit by the Feds). The only other drug distributing I can remember is when Nicky put out a package to White Mike (who had other connections to Prop Joe or double G - i can't remember). It seemed like the drug trade was more of a new direction for the Greeks. But they weren't the only game in town.

I agree with you though that overall, the Greeks weren't as well developed from a storytelling standpoint as say, Avon. But I found that indicative more of the nature of the criminal. Avon is homegrown and a product of the city. The Greek/Vondas/et al constitute lesser known territory. They seemed more nomadic than anything. Also, I think the main reason Simon went with "Greek" as opposed to other nationalities is because of the association between Greece and shipping, which makes a lot of sense given the port storyline. When you have a strong port connect, the trafficking possibilities are endless.

I'm not familiar enough with organized crime (other than what I watch on TV) to know what the dominating institutional structure tends to be. But I can imagine that a smaller operation with lots of connections can be a successful crime syndicate in that they are much harder to detect (look at how hard it is to defeat guerrillas, for example). I'm not sure how much we can generalize from the typical "mafia" organization that we hear about and see on TV. A mafia organization, to me, is a glorified "gang". They can come in all sorts of sizes. Also, the Greek seemed really good at the PR aspect. He created this sort of mythical persona that others "heard about", but he himself was always hanging out at the cafe listening in on everything that was going on. He always seemed to be completely aware of everything.

(eta - I do find this stuff fascinating though. I read an article not too long ago on different European organized crime syndicates from Albania, Romania, Turkey, Greece, Bulgaria and the Balkans. A lot of these organizations actually use Greek ports for their activities.)

I myself just chalked up The Greek to "things I don't really know about." The raw has to come from somewhere, and it's not like we're talking about the holder of all heroin on the eastern seaboard, just the one guy who gets it into East Baltimore.

Gob, I agree that the stevedores, being part of the taxpayer world, do have more opportunities but they just seem so unwilling to take them and I think that partly comes from the pride of being part of the local. I think Nick's dad, who has severed his ties with the docks, was meant to be part of the minority; I imagine most of the other guys were like Ziggy in that scene where he walks along the pier with his dad, recalling old stories. But I won't believe that these guys are all about making money legally, in the one scene where Frank has to instruct the detectives how to use the computer records, he makes a comment that some 160 containers or something are missing at that moment. Not all those cans were lost due to fat fingers punching in the wrong code, and not all stealing on the docks was being committed by Sobotkas.

Obviously, there's a big difference between stealing some cameras and killing people though. (Although it can be pointed out that the whole dock stayed silent about 11 dead girls in a can.) As murderous a bunch as the Barksdales are though, they have a code they all stick to; one that Marlo ends up breaking.

Lade - my impression had been that the Greek had been involved with Prop Joe (and this, supplying most of the East side of Baltimore) for quite some time - if you'll recall, Joe tells Nicky and Ziggy that they reason they're still alive after their fight with Cheese is because of Nicky and Ziggy's relationship with Serge (Serge? The Israeli/Russian dude). Also, Nick and Ziggy seemed to be under the impression that the chemicals they were importing were going to be used to cut a lot of dope, which suggests this wasn't a new venture. Also, I have to take issue with the statement about quality - the more important thing is quantity. As Stringer tells D in s1, the fiends will keep buying no matter what they put in the vials, so its actually better for a dealer to have a lot of a weak package than a little of a good one. See, the thing is:



Doesn't it sound like you're describing Keyser Soze? Even if the Colombians didn't wanna deal with Avon anymore because they thought he snitched, that's too much business for some group not to want it - by season 4, they're supplying all of Baltimore. It just seems like two or three people shouldn't be able to hold that down, no matter how shifty they are. East Baltimore has to be responsible for a great deal of drug money income, let alone the whole city - at some point, I would envision a larger, better-armed group from Central America or Eastern Europe making a move. Also, I believe "The Greek" himself points out that he isn't really Greek, but rather, just uses that name.

Mutante - what the hell is the Barksdales' code? Stringer orders D's death. Avon orders (among others) Wallace, Lil' Man and Orlando. They shoot up Omar while he's escorting his grandma to church, and they string Brandon up like a deer. Avon and Stringer themselves turn on each other in the end. Consider the scene near the end of season 2, where some type of governmental people (D of Labor?) were pressing Ott to remove Frank's name from consideration for present, and he tears down his own flyer instead. This would never happen in the streets. The only two street characters to show any loyalty whatsoever are D (who lets Cass and that other dude slide for shorting the stash) and Bodie (who gets pissed about Lil' Kevin), and they both wind up dead. The only code of the street is you do whatever it takes to get money, and Marlo didn't break the code anymore than anyone else. I would say "Stop Snitchin'" is the code, but of the dead people I mentioned above, two of six (Wallace and Bodie) were planning on snitching. I think we're all so used to the Barksdale crew that we want to make Marlo out as a monster by comparison, but as has been mentioned earlier in this thread, especially if you read Marlo as a kind of prequel to the Barksdales, they're clearly not any more loyal than any other street gang, which is to say, not at all. This is, after all, why Bunk is so impressed with Omar. He's the one street-level character who actually does follow a code.

I disagree. The Barksdales were, IMO, similar to movie depictions of Italian Cosa Nostra organizations because of the importance of creating a community that they viewed as a family. The loyalty flows from the idea the organization as your family. I think that Avon and String tuned on each other in the end doesn't reflect that they lacked loyalty or love for each other but that the self-interest ideology of the game backed them each into a corner. They both tried to mitigate the final result. String tried to get Colvin to promise Avon would only serve minimal time. Avon tried to buy off Brother Muzone. The idea of loyalty to the Barksdale crew can be seen in Wee Bay, Bodie, Poot, and a dozen other guys who took the years rather than roll up and testify.

You don't see that same friendships and familial ties within Marlo's crew. They're group has not been humanized at all. Additionally, Marlo breaks a key code of the game when he has two taxpayers hit. A security guard for no damn reason and the delivery lady to set up Omar. He also puts a bounty on Randy even after he gives the cops nothing but schoolyard gossip. While the Barksdales don't openly espouse Omar's code they never deliberately go after anyone removed from the game who can't hurt them. The consequences of the attempted hit on Omar while taking his grandmother to church is actually a great example of that. There are things the Barksdales won't do and I've yet to see any depth to which Marlo won't sink.


I think Marlo is that and more. He is a sociopath, IMO. Avon and Stringer were not evil. They were two guys with limited resources who advanced in their environment the only way they knew how. That is true of Marlo as well but there is a coldness and inhumanity to him that we've never seen on the Wire before.

But isn't what love and loyalty is is not turning your back on someone even if it costs you something? If you break the code when it's in your self-interest to break the code, then you don't have a code. And while I completely agree that Marlo is a sociopath - or at least is being portrayed as one - there is no way that the moral sensibility of a person who puts hits on children and on relatives is not diminished at the very least. I like both Avon and Stringer as characters - because they're dimensional and complex. But as people? Oh God no. Stringer I loathed. Avon I could tolerate a smidgen more. But I felt no empathy for either of them in the way I did for D, for example, or the way I do for Cutty. A code is Omar. Loyalty and love is - Omar never ever ever turns on Brandon (if he hadn't gotten murdered) or the two women in his crew - never.

I completely agree that there is a coldness and inhumanity in Marlo that we have never seen before. And, as I said upthread a bit, it makes him boring in my eyes because it makes him predictable. Despite the fact that I had no particular empathy for Stringer (and in fact was delighted when he finally got what was coming to him) I was interested in him as a character, and I felt that his character was both complex and understandable. With Marlo - and Marlo's crew as well - they just seem like complete cyphers. I have no idea what kind of people they are except heartless murdering killers. Boring.

I guess by code, I was meaning "family", like y'all are suggesting. Most of the bodies that get chalked up to the Barksdales didn't really fall into the "family" but they did kill (I think) Little Man for shooting Kima. I think Marlo has a "family" too, it's just really really small, maybe him, Chris and Snoop, and their pups. Like Chris says to Michael, "And if you with us... you with us."

It'll be interesting to see in Season 5 if anyone in Marlo's family ends up killing one another or flipping.

Couple of loose ends:

a)


William Gant? For that matter, Stringer tries to put a hit on Clay Davis is season 3, too. Sheeeyit.

Also - Wallace was a member of the Barksdale "family". D'Angelo literally was. You could make the argument Orlando was as well.

As far as Marlo's crew - first off, I think the relationship between Chris and Snoop is fascinating. I would definitely like some exploration there, but they have a whole big brother/little sister death-squad thing going on that I imagine could be very interesting. Snoop is one of the most intersesting characters on the whole show - goddamn scary, but interseting. Consider the way women tend to be portrayed in this society - the only woman on the street with anything resembling a place in the game beforehand is Brianna. Other than that, women on the street-level are, at best, diversions, at worst, objects to be used (like the girl Avon tried to get to play Marlo, whom Marlo shot). In short, the street characters generally go for the Peter Griffin school of feminism (i.e., "Women are devices created by the lord Jesus Christ for our entertainment"). Yet here's this 15-year old girl who's a key player in a major drug ring, and feared by even the most hardened men on the street. I hope this gets explored in season 5, cuz I think there's a lot of mileage that could be had from it.

What I think is interesting is that Stringer and Avon were both loyal to the organization they had built together over each other. They each had a different idea about what was most important to preserve it. Stringer needed to reform the game without beefing over territory (thus keeping Prop Joe happy and the heroin supply running) and Avon needed to maintain his reputation with New York (thus keep the coke supply running).

Little Man was hit because he went outside the “code”, shot a cop, and couldn’t be trusted to keep his mouth shut.



William Gant testified against D’Angelo. Wallace rolled over on Stringer & Wee bay on a murder. Ruthless and wrong but in the context of a “No Snitching” world I think it’s accepted. This makes Marlo’s interdict on Randy so awful. The kid didn’t give anything up because he didn’t know anything but he was still the victim of Marlo’s persecution. Stringer wanted to have Davis hit, but Avon was able to reason with him about the impact it would have for them. Chris doesn’t seem to have that same moderating influence on Marlo as he was only too happy to take down a security guard for “talking back.”

I’m intrigued by Snoop’s place her world not so much her relationship with Marlo or Chris. I’m curious if her sexuality is viewed positively by those in the crew. That she is hard enough and strong enough for the street because she is a lesbian. It almost seems to elevate her to as equal. In some ways Marlo’s crew treats her the same way the cops treat Kima. Like she’s just one of the boys. Conversely, in the same community a gay man like Omar is reviled because of his sexual orientation.

Right, but D'Angelo had already been acquitted by the time they whacked Gant. And in fact, I see a pretty direct parallel between the Barksdales/Wallace situation and the Marlo/Randy situation. They were both examples, and both of them had actually gotten in contact the cops. Marlo, remember, decided not to kill Randy, and if I recall correctly, it was Chris that talked him out of it. That said, for street logic, what happened to Randy made perfect sense. He went to the police. He talked. Even more important than stopping him from talking is the idea that people who talk get punished; once Marlo found out he'd been in front of the police, I don't see where he had any choice (especially given that Marlo has no way of knowing what Randy may have said, or if he really knew anything). If anything, that's Marlo's one moment of humanity - it always seemed to me like he spared Randy because of Michael, which does show some vestige of humanity, perhaps the only time we see that. And perhaps, that's an avenue to Marlo becoming more of an Avon-type character; we're already at the point where Chris tries to restrict his access to the everyday goings-on of their gang, much the way Stringer did with Avon.

Furthermore, Lil' Man didn't get shot cuz he broke any code, he got shot cuz he was a liability, plain and simple. It wasn't a question of retribution, it was a question of tying up loose ends. No morality whatsoever involved. Also, they make a point of saying how cold-blooded it was to off Gant; even Omar, who allows most things are part of the game, is disgusted by it. And I don't buy that Avon "argued" Stringer out of the Clay Davis hit, either. Stringer simply didn't entail the same loyalty in his underlings (Slim Charles being the proxy in this instance) that Avon did after wasting all their money trying to be something he wasn't.

Has it been established that Snoop is a lesbian? I do feel like that would play a large role in her acceptance on the street - it's almost like, even as a woman, you have to be willing to demean other women to fit in, not that I would imagine Snoop really cares about the irony. Or necessarily knows what irony is.

Snoop: "What you think you all that cause you got a gun?"
Bunk: "Naw, just thinking about getting some pussy."
Snoop: "Shit... me too!"

LOL

I didn't really get the sense that Wallace was in the "family", the corner boys are like the ever expendable farm leagues, from where real soldiers might come up and become "family". And even then, it was Stringer who called for that hit, as he did for an actual family member, Dee.

I have to re-view where Marlo and Chris discuss Randy and decide not to off him. Maybe it was after the vacants got noticed? I can't really see where they would have a problem with it, unless they really wanted Michael in that badly.

(BTW, that just reminded me of the scene where Marlo notices his ring around Michael's neck. "Naw... you keep it." The look he gives him sends chills down my spine, like he's proud of him or something.)

LisaJunior / Gob, I the prequel theme can work on multiple levels; for Marlo / Chris on one and Michael and Dukie on another. At the end of S4, Dukie's Stringer, the 'brains', and Michael is Avon, the 'gangster.' I think one of the arcs of S3 was "A young, hungry Marlo takes over Avon like Avon took over the towers. "

I rewatched S4 recently and was struck that you can see the beginnings of each kid's character arc; Michael refusing Marlo's money; Namond 'pissing' himself and running away without injury, 'fighting like a girl', Randy and his foster parent, etc. I think it may be the best single season for character development.

Do you feel that that is realistic or more part of the show's world? There seemed to be female dealers in the first season, such as Little Sarah and that woman whose eggs Dee broke, but we didn't really get to see much of either of them.

Well, they may not have been dealers, technically, but I don't remember seeing them after the first season in any case.

Ankai (OT but I think I recognize you from the VM forums), I just finished reading the Corner and female dealers seem to be the exception and not the rule. I think it's definitely possible (and there are non-trivial numbers female touts and runners, but not so much on the higher rungs of the dealer hierarchy). But given the central role of "image" and the types of "wars" that happen over drug real estate and protecting stash houses, a female dealer will have a really hard time earning the necessary street cred to survive (a tough gig for any dealer regardless of gender).

Simon on Marlo and the Greek:

I don't get that Snoop is interesting. (I've only seen season 4 through episode 7 though.) She's completely predictable. Which - I know, I'm sorry, I keep saying this - is completely boring. I think when characters are this predictable it is because they are not complex or dimensional enough. Maybe she will be interesting later. But she's not interesting now. She was interesting in the first two episodes we saw her in. Then she was the same - and the same again - and the same again and again and again. So. No.

Chris asked what they should do about Randy and Marlo told him that Randy couldn't hurt them. Marlo then told Snoop to let it be known that Randy had been snitching. This certainly led to more troubles for poor Randy, but I thought it was interesting that Marlo decided not to have him killed. I mean, he had just had Little Kevin killed for a great deal less. Was it because he draws the line at executing 13 year olds? Because he knew Randy was Micheal's friend? Maybe he just thought the police would take the disappearance of an 8th grader more seriously than the disappearance of an 18 year old crack dealer.



Actually, at the end of Season 1 they have that female security guard killed. (She's the one who changed her testimony and got Dee acquitted in episode 1). It was after Levy advised Avon and Stringer to "take care" of anyone who might be able to hurt them. Little Man and Wallace were also hit as part of this purge. Also, from what I can recall Stringer and Avon didn't know that Wallace was snitching. Just that he was upset by Brandon's death, and that he was trying to get out of the game.

Marlo is certainly not a good candidate for Boy Scout of the year, but in my opinion we've never seen him or Chris do anything nearly as sick and twisted as what Stringer and Co. did to Brandon. For Stringer to be a part of that, or even just to watch as it happened says a lot about what he is capable of.

Another interesting thing is the fact that the Barksdale crew seemed to be a lot more interested in taking on the young kids and getting them started in the game. I mean look at how D'angelo has a very young Poot and Wallace working for him and he would actually try to teach them how to be successful. Marlo seems to be the opposite in that he doesn't really care about the future, only that he is making money now. You can see it if you watch Namond and his crew trying to sell drugs. They are pretty much on their own with no guidance from the higher ups, and it shows. Their lookouts suck, and if you watch closely the same guy will take the money and hand over the drugs. D'angelo would never allow that sort of thing.

On a completely different note, how shocking was it when Carcetti was trying to find something to put his name on and someone on his staff actually said how unfortunate it was that the Locust Point Pier was still in operation since it would make a great real estate development.

That's an interesting observation. The only thing though is that Marlo was completely different with the induction and training of Michael (he wouldn't let him kill Bodie, for example). From the little we've seen of Marlo's recruitment style, I'd say that Marlo behaves differently with the people he takes into his inner circle. Look at how close he is to Snoop and Chris. Maybe he's just extremely selective. In many ways, he lacks the sophistication of the Barksdale operation; but he has this paranoid ethos that seems somehow more extreme. It very much fits the old institution (Barksdale) vs. the new insurgency making the transition into the dominant drug operation.