In the recap for the second to last episode of season 6, Jacob says I thought we might want to talk about it before this show goes into PH. It certainly is a good question.

First, I need to point out that I loathe the term Jump the Shark, but that's mostly because people use it as a way to attack a show, when I think it should really be just an interesting way to analyze the life of a show and how we felt about it. To facilitate the discussion, but mostly to keep me from having a Monk-like anxiety attack from us using the phrase incorrectly, here's the definition of Jumping the Shark from the official web site:


I have two candidates for the "moment". The first is the season 1 finale. While the fist season was being filmed, Trump behaved as though he was conducting a semi-legitimate interview process. By the time the season 1 finale hit the air, Trump realized that he was the lead character in a TV show, and EVERYTHING changed. All of the following seasons never came close to resembling what we had in season one, and they were also never better. The season one finale could certainly be the actual jumping the shark moment.

Unless you're like me and still kind of enjoyed The Apprentice as a TV show first and a job interview second. I'll argue that the season 1 finale was actually just the jumping the shark moment for people who though of The Apprentice as a candid reality show rather than a competitive reality show.

I think that the jumping the shark moment as a TV show came in episode 4-6. This was the day that Trump fired Josh, James, Jenthura, and Mark all at the same time. As far as I can tell, the show never had another Holy Shit! That was awesome! moment after that. To be fair, the season 4 finale was pretty cool, and I've enjoyed quite a few episodes since then, but I think that was the "the moment."

Interesting question. I think there are several possibilities:

1) Creating the "book smarts vs. street smarts" theme for S3. Trump is never going to hire someone without a college degree for the Apprentice position, so this premise didn't facilitate a serious interview process.

2) Trump using his kids as viceroys, beginning in S5. Even though Trump's been promoting his business the entire time and the show is one big commercial for the Trumporg, including his children on the show gave them added fame and just made the show too much about the Trumps and not enough about good business practices.

3) Voting for the winner in S5. Highlighting the results of a poll right before making the hiring choice was a ridiculous gambit IMO, and it shouldn't have been part of the show. It's one thing to include the poll on the website, as NBC did this year, but it shouldn't have been part of the final BR.

4) The S5 finale. In last year's live BR, Trump and the viceroys didn't even hold Sean and Lee accountable for their performance on the final tasks. Because Lee did a much worse job, he should have been taken to task for this, but instead, Trump just asked a few other previous firees about who they'd hire, and their answers were obvious. Last year's final boardroom to me was very weak, especially when compared to previous years. Even this year's live BR was better than last year's.

5) S6. The whole thing, besides Stefani.

The season three book smarts vs. street smarts was certainly a turning point. I don't remember any tinkering in season 2, so this was probably the first gimmick, and a lot of people will cite the gimmicks as a reason they lost interest in the show.

I think this might be closer to what I said about the season 1 finale in that it was a clear indication that we're watching a TV show and not a job interview.

Many of those answers were driven by a dislike of Lee.

I have a few Jumping The Shark candidates. These weren't obvious events or episodes, but more a string of bad decisions made by Trump.

1- When Trump fired the losing PM for gadzillion consecutive episodes. Starting in Season 2 Episode 4 all the way to Season 3 Episode 4, Trump fired the losing PM in all episodes except for the break he took to get rid of little Munchkin Stacy R.

2- "Your entire team said you were the problem, therefore you're fired." - Andrea, Aimee, Jenn, Surya, Tim, etc. all fell under this stupid rule.

3- "You were the project manager on a project that lost, therefore you exhibit poor leadership. You won, even if it's by 5 phone calls out of 980+, therefore you were a good leader". Urgh. It has become so routine for Trump to say it that he didn't even notice Jenn's entire team saying that they thought she was a good leader and that they respected her, and said "You were a poor leader, and your team didn't respect you" as reasons for firing her.

I don't think the show is a goner at all:

NBC has massive ratings woes to where The Apprentice isn't really doing as bad as it looks in the ratings (as ratings on NBC are down something like 30-50% and overall TV ratings are down something like 15-30% since the 2003-'04 season). "The Apprentice" is still averaging around 7.4 million viewers, which when compared to "ER" only getting 9.26 million for an April 12 episode (an all-time low for a new episode of that series) and "ER" costs double or even triple what it costs to produce an episode of "The Apprentice" AND "The Apprentice" still turns a profit for all parties involved (apparently, the show still attracts a lot of high-income viewers whom ad buyers will pay extra to reach) and I suspect the show will be back next season in some form, whether it be with Mr. Trump or someone else at the helm (I've said myself I'd be looking at Cowboys owner Jerry Jones as a replacement for Mr. Trump if it were up to me given if Mr. Jones took over, the NFL would probably jump on board and help with the show as well as heavily promote such a version).

I'd also nominate 2 parts of season 2 for "Jumping the Shark:"

(a) The hours-long boardrooms that often had the girls yelling at each other on and on and on.

(b) Product placement. Although there was some product place in Season 1, I think season 2 really began the trend of overusing brandnames instead of creating new tasks. I always like the "lemonade" or "refurbish a townhouse" tasks that had nothing to do with big name companies.

Wallyhorse, I do think it will be back, but it's almost certainly going to get the PH treatment here. In this context, it looks like a goner, and I think it's a fine time to figure out exactly when it hit the moment when it was never going to get any better.

Gapkid, those are some really good points, especially the "your entire team says you're the problem" gambit. That doesn't speak of a professional interview process, and Trump ought to see through what the candidates are doing when they all try to point the finger at the same person. It's an easy way to avoid being criticized by the team in the future, but Trump ought to cut through that and fire whomever should be fired more often. IMO, he did the right thing firing Pepi and Stacy over Brent, despite what the team was saying, but he doesn't do that often enough.

My candiates:

1. Pamela's firing in season 2. Apex sucked as a whole, Pamela was forced over to that team, and she managed to make them function better, and take it to Mosaic. But they still lost, and even though it was close (only abot a $10 difference, I believe), Trump fired her. When he could have fired the useless Stacy or Maria. Combind that with Stacie J's early oust, this showed how Trump quit making decisions for himself, and just followed the crowd.

2. Jennifer Massey yelling her way into the F2. I was one of the viewers who couldn't stand her, and watching her FUTR, CYA ass make it that far was bad enough, but seeing Trump clearly infacuated with her, really disgusted me. He fired poor Kevin without blinking an eye, and helped Jennifer railroad Sandy, before booting her. It was then when I realised that I've lost all respect for Trump. In the first season, I actually respected a lot of his decisions, and even kind of respected him. Not anymore.

3. The Randal/Rebecca double-hire attempt. As soon as Trump asked the question, I just threw my hands up in the air. It didn't matter how Randal answered it; what Trump did pretty much killed the show's credibility, IMO.

4. Sean winning. What made this bad is that I couldn't argue against it. But this win showed how much all the contestants sucked that year. Sean shouldn't be "The Apprentice". He should have been the "entertaining character", like Raj or Bren; the guy who sticks around, but does get fired halfway-F5, and lets the real winners duke it out. But Sean argueably was the best of the S5 cast, and that's just sad.

Just a side note re Shark-Jumping:

Ever notice how people define "Jumping the Shark" as something that's actually very different than how the website defines it? I mean, going by the definition as expressed on the official Jump the Shark website (as copied in the first post above), you'd expect the actual shark-jump moment to be something really very cool - a "climax," as it says, to which the show can never hope to measure up ever again.

I find that interesting because it's really very much not how people have come to think of the term. For the vast majority of TV-watchers, the term Jump the Shark (an expression that's already so outdated it might be available to come back as retro) describes a moment that's actually in and of itself terribly bad and/or miscalculated, something so powerful in its suckiness that it draws a once good show down with it. It's not something a show can never hope to outdo, it's something a show never recovers from.

(The follow-up posts above reflect the popular interpretation).

As far as The Apprentice is concerned, I think the Shark-Jumping actually occurred off-camera during the casting process when it became obvious they were more interested in coming up with "interesting" characters (like Mr. Bagle Diet) that would stir things up rather than candidates who were actually qualified and stood a real chance of being hired.

Most people don't read "jump the shark" as "reach a peak". When Fonzie actually jumped the shark in Happy Days (the scene that gave birth to the phrase) it wasn't a peak in the show. It was a desperate attempt to improve sagging ratings. That's why most people read the phrase as such.

Yeah, I wanted to avoid the whole discussion on the meaning of "Jump the Shark" when I posted earlier since there's a topic in "Ask Tubey" about the phrase, but I follow the popular take.

I see the "Jump the Shark" as that moment when a show, probably already on a slow decline, reaches a moment where it dips below a threshold it will almost never revive itself from. I think that's why a lot of people also point out moments such as a baby (Mad About You, Friends) or a long term crush finally becoming a relationship (Niles & Daphne on Frasier) as examples of where you can't go back to where the show once was.

And so I definitely am looking at the moments where the show no longer could be what it once was. The Rebecca/Randall finale was another good candidate, since I think season 5 had that baggage going in just months later.

I think the Stacie J. affair started all of season two off on a bad note, which it had to scramble to recover from.

It also began "breaking" the carefully constructed rules of season one--a little early to do that--what with exemptions and double firings. It also had the worst finale out of all the Apprentices (three hours long!); while season three's was junkier, it was at least shorter. It also showed how silly the interviews were (glad they got rid of those) when Kevin, a fine PM, was dismissed for having "too many degrees." While perhaps a legitimate problem, in effect Kevin was then doomed from the start, wasn't he?

Season three, in response to these excesses, settled for just being junkily entertaining television. It resulted in a ghastly but brief finale with the terminally outclassed Tana, Trump forgetting people's names, and Kendra thrown into the dumpster immediately after winning.

Season four was a step back in the right direction, but it seemed really short what with the Boardroom Massacre and another multiple firing. The massacre, as great TV as it was, also eliminated a host of probably more deserving candidates than Markus and Clay.

Season five seemed like it took forever and featured a genuinely rather toolish cast. I liked the additions of Ivanka and even Don Jr.

This season, as many have noted, actually worked better once it became a parody of itself.

Rey Kjavik wrote:

I believe Raj Bhakta from TA2 might agree with that. I once heard him speak and he talked about the final vetting process, where about 40 potential contestants were subjected to psychology tests and interviews over the course of about 1 week. He surmised that the finalists were the ones who 'failed' the psychology tests.

In the true definition of "Shark Jumping", the TA1 Finale pretty much has to be the high point. Not only was it arguably the best season, but the staging of the finale, making the live boardroom look like it was the taped boardroom and then having the 4 walls removed after Bill was selected as the Original Apprentice to show the audience and the fired candidates. That was good television. The trouble is, once you do it, you really can't do it again. The advance knowledge of the candidates on what to expect and the audience expectations change everything.

I'd nominate the Boardroom in S2 in which Trump let Jennifer and Sandy shriek for what seemed like hours, then turned around and fired Andy, saying he'd been 'outdebated.'

There were some questionable decisions before that in S2, but that was the moment when I decided Trump was an idiot and that all he wanted was a freakshow to preside over.

If there was one factor that destroyed the show that was it. S3 really started the trend but in S4 it reached its nadir when the teams had to promote Star Wars by setting up the display (which a four year old could do). Ironically, because of the diminished ratings (brought on by over use of this tactic) S6 actually wasn't so bad in this regard.

Other factors:

1. Stupid decisions - Firing the one candidate in S2 who showed creativity, flair and some balls was bad enough. Then letting a bunch of twenty something con him into scapgoating a solid (if unispring) candidate made him look like a fool.
2. Obviously Fixed Finale - The all-female finale in S3 and Rebecca getting to the finale in S4 (and the attempted double hiring) were as dodgy as a nine pound note. Even professional wrestling doesn't make it that obvious. Changing the rules in midstream (quadruple firings, double hirings no final task) also reduced the competitions credibility. Although Kendra and Stefani were strong candidates they certainly were not the strongest.
3. Mediocre Quality of Contestants - The candidates in S1 (with a few exceptions) were serious and credible contenders. Ereka, Amy, Troy, Nick, Katrina, Bill and Kwame (and possibly Kristi) - need I say more? was shows the ferocity of the competition. Even Sam and Omarosa (the former especially) had moments that justified their prescense on objective business criteria. Could anyone please explain the point of Erin, Bren, Audrey, Chris, Kristen or some of the early S4 candidates? Or indeed, Nicole for that matter?

Rey Kjavik, I think that even by the definition of Jump the Shark from the guys who came up with it, it can be thought of as either the high point OR the point where you can clearly identify that the show is never going to be better than it was before that point. With the actual jumping the shark moment, it's more of the second one. It was pretty clear that Happy Days was never going to reach previous highs after the shark jumping episode.

Regardless of that distinction, what is very clear is that it is a MOMENT, and not general feeling or trend. However, when I started this thread, I should have been more clear that either trend or moment is an interesting thing to discuss. I only threw in the jumping the shark stuff because I get all nutty about the way it's used.

To apply that here, I can certainly see how the gross product placement could turn people off, but if you want to call it a shark jump in the spirit of the term, you would need to find the first really awful one as your moment. It's why I called the season one finale a serious contender. I firmly believe that all of the hideous screaming and wild-ass Trump behavior in season two has a direct link to the moment in time when Trump figured out that his TV show was yooge.

The show was on a decline ever since Season 2, although IMO, it wasn't a steady decline. I actually liked Season 3 better than 2. I loved the showdown between Kendra and Tana in Season 3 for all the wrong reasons. It was so delicious watching Tana self-destruct. Last season, meh. I think that I could have liked this season if Trump didn't go all loonier than he usually was and if he didn't set up those new stupid rules. At least I liked several of the contestants and as big as goofs as Arrow was, they were kind of fun to watch.

However, as stupid as the new rules were and as loonier as Trump was, I really, truly think that the show jumped the shark when the reward was a night at the Playboy mansion.

This post will not be edited for grammar, at least not by me.

If we are using the "Peak" definition, then I'd give the Season 3 final task as one of my favorites, simply because of the Tana meltdown. Oh, to have seen her employees diss her more in the boardroom! Few tasks since then have been as delicious. And of course, that finale shows just how stupid this final 4 finale was, what with 2 teams and just making a commercial.

I think the shark was well jumped by the time of tents and permanent PMs, but that final four idea was like jumping over 10 sharks at once.

The rot started with the M&M's task in S2, picked up pace with the Coffee and the Home Depot task in S3 and hit rock bottom with the Zenthura and Star Wars tasks in S4.

If the shark jump was not the tents (my choice), it was the attempt to force Randal, the clear winner, to share the prize with Rebecca. Since season 2, I have enjoyed these board discussions of the Apprentice but this year until the Las Vegas task, there was nothing to discuss but the personality flaws of the candidates. There was way less discussion and very little interest in even giving the candidates funny nicknames. The show was on a slow decline from season 2 but the shark jump came when they erected the tent and made that gimmick as important as the tasks.

Interesting. The steady decline since season 3 ties in nicely with your feeling about the gimmick in season 6. Season 3 was also the first time we got a full season gimmick thrown at us. One could say that gimicks in general have been bad for the show, but the first episode of season 6 was when we officially Trumped the shark. Even if we went back to standard rules now, the damage done by the tents is irreversible.

Please stop arguing the meaning of that stupid phrase. It's not the topic, not to mention that you're basically fighting the millennium at this point. We all know what it means, and it's not a debate that makes anybody look particularly sexy.

Great points...but I'll throw something in. I think this show first jumped the shark with season 3's "Book Smarts vs. Street Smarts". The show was going well and didn't need a gimmick, which is exactly what that season was. Trump himself said he wasn't especially happy with that season, and it has been downhill ever since. The next season we get the group firing and the attempted double hiring. This show reminds me of the Batman movie franchise. The first two Batman movies were good, but the last two were campy. Batman Begins rejuvenated the franchise because it got back to it's roots, which is exactly what Trump needs to do to make this show good again. Make it about an actual interview process by removing the gimmicks...no double or multiple firings, no tents, no "PM until you lose" rules. Also, have tasks that are more than about advertising, bring back the final four having to go through an actual interview, and have a task for the final 2. If this show does come back, that's what I'd like to see.

I agree that the moment Trump tried to force Randal to share the prize with Rebecca was the biggest jump-the-shark moment. There have been many other things that have put me off this show, but that was the biggest. Aside form everything else, like the unfairness to Randal, and Trump's suspect motives, I thought it was a really poor business decision. If Randal had gone along with it, it would have taken away all the suspense from the finale. What would have been the point of having the two big final tasks, if Trump was just going to make it all moot and hire Rebecca on the same night anyway? I don't think people would be as motivated to watch the show when there's a distinct possibility that there will be two winners if Trump decides he likes the second person just as muh for the win.

Even though he didn't end up hiring Rebecca, the fact that he wanted to do it that night put a real taint on the show. The show never recovered from that debacle, in my view. I would have been fine with him hiring Rebecca at a later time, just as he did with another candidate (Andy?), IIRC. But the way he tried to do it at the finale was clumsy, tactless, and ill-considered.

The only way I can see this show coming back with any hope of success is if they replace Trump. But I don't see that happening, especially since Trump is a producer. His ego won't allow it, I don't think. But actually, if he did set aside his ego for a moment, it would make great television for someone to come into the boardroom and fire him. I'd tune in for that! He could even still pop in occasionally to give some of his lame business advice, or be part of a "reward." Replacing Trump would refinitely revitalize interest in the show. Trump has turned into too much of a buffoon to be taken seriously, and to me he's not longer even fun as entertainment. But knowing DT, he probably has it in his contract that no one else can take over the show.

I think they can get their act back together if they return to New York and stick to serious business oriented tasks, instead of gimmicks like singing, acting, filming commercials, writing children's stories and other such. What the show needs is not more "new elements" but less. They should return to the basic Season 1 format and then everybody would take the show more seriously. Serious professional audience with high education levels has been the main viewer base of this show from the beginning and now they are trying to stuff it down the throats of a bigger (but very different) audience who is watching Survivor and Big Brother. But most of the Survivor audience is never going to watch the Apprentice because the premise is not something they like to identify with or even think about (working hard and being competitive, climbing the corporate ladder or starting their own business). They are just losing their original audience who doesn't enjoy the Survivor-like gimmicks. If they keep adding these elements, it finally gets down to the level of Jerry Springer Show.

And I don't think they should replace Trump as some other posters have suggested, he is an integral and iconic part of the show, adds a lot of legitimacy to it, and has an enjoyable way of interacting with the contestants.

Definitely the tents. Gee, why not do the full Survivor experience and dump them in the woods, give them the clothes on their backs, a pot for boiling and a machete, and that's it - let them figure out how to get to the tasks, how to look professional in such a situation, etc.

I vote for taking it back to NYC (or Chicago - that would be fine with me!) and giving them more interesting business-oriented tasks to do. That's what made it interesting - not the tents or permanent PMs, etc.

I have to respectfully disagree that Trump adds any legitimacy to the show at this point. He has asked the competitors inappropriate questions about their sex lives, yelled at them, called them stupid, and generally conducted himself in a very unprofessional manner. He also makes illogical, inconsisent decisions in the boardroom.

In fact, probably the only way I'd start watching the show again is if they did replace Trump. I like the premise of the show, but I just can't watch Trump anymore. IMO, he is the biggest factor in the decline of the show, and the reason this show has jumped the shark. YMMV.

I do remember rumors that Mark Burnett's original plan was to change "bosses" each season, but he decided against it, after Trump became huge after the first season (I did think he came off rather well that season, all things considering.) Hence the whole Martha spin-off, instead of just having her take over the show. I do think that some of the problem is that he's getting boring. It would be like if they kept going back to the same location on Survivor. Trump is still crazy, but he's really not even shocking me anymore. I know that he will say something sexist at least twice, he'll make a few sterotypical remarks invovling race, and may even throw a homophobic remark, every now and then. Last time I was really entertained by his insanity was in the 4th season, when he compared homosexuality and hetorsexuality to steak and spagetti. Now, it's just offensive and stupid.

Word word word word word!!! Trump's ego has overshadowed this show now. He's been inconsistent with his firing, the inappropriate questions as you have mentioned, calling them losers...I know I don't want to see that anymore. I definitely think a change at the top needs to happen for this show to regain it's magic. Trump himself needs to be fired.

I think that Trump actually HAS been the magic of this show. His boardroom behavior and dialogue are very effective, as compared to Martha's, for example. I liked some Martha's tasks better, but the boardrooms were really boring. The Apprentice also works because of the Trump brand and image.

S2 or S3 premiere - I can't remember which (but I think it was S2).

Trump greets the candidates, then tells them to have a footrace to see who gets the first immunity. As soon as I saw that I knew that any semblance of a classy business competition was out the window.

Just embarrassing to see business men and women running for the pleasure of being Trump's lackey.

Actually, that was S4. And yes, that was one of the dumbest things this show has ever done.

I agree. I do think having a new host would change the dynamic and possible breathe new air into the show, but it needs someone with the same attitude (but without the inconsistencies). Martha would've been great if she acted hardened from her jailtime, but she was rather soft and bland, and that killed her version. And with the other billionaire copycats from that year failing as well, I doubt NBC and Burnett are willing to risk changing hosts again by now.

I agree, Trump did come off pretty well the first season. I think that's the main reason the show was such a big hit in the first place. Trump showed genuine interest in the candidates, and he seemed to take the search for the Apprentice seriously. He actually seemed like a mentor, and had encouraging words for many of the candidates. Most of his decisions were logical. He was humorous without being smarmy.



I agree. I don't want to see that anymore, either. This show lost something essential when Trump could no longer be counted on to make good, rational choices.



So true. Trump's schtick has gotten quite old and stale. As you said, he's become quite predictable in his craziness. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the only way for this show to regain some of the lost viewers is to replace Trump. Those who have given up on the show because of Trump are not likely to return as long as he's on the show, even if they try other locations and new gimmicks. Trump has made things even worse by turning off a lot of potential viewers by his sordid behavior in the press, especially with his various feuds.

Although I don't think anything can return the show to the glory days of 20+ million viewers, a good replacement for Trump would create new interest. I wonder if any show has ever done a reverse shark jump and revamped and revitalized itself? I don't expect that to happen here, but if Trump would either let go of the reigns, or was replaced, I do think it would be possible.



But they don't have that much to lose, do they? Trump's ratings have been on a steady decline for a while now, and that trend isn't likely to change.



Oh my goodness, I had forgotten about that. That really was embarrassing for everyone involved. I cringe even now, just thinking about it.

All the talk about replacing Trump... but who is a good replacement?

Maybe Oprah? Or do we need another egomaniac prone to exaggeration?

Rosie? (excuse me while I vomit)

edited to add....after throwing up at the thought...it would be funny in light of the Trump/O'Donnel feud for her to replace him. I wouldn't watch, but I would snicker a little bit.

If they're supposed to do the show in Chicago next season, you might as well :)

You could argue that Survivor did that between the boring Vanuatu season and the well-received Palau season.

TAR last season seemed to turn around after a downward trend by changing its Non-Elimination penalties and add a new twist (the Intersection), but there have been problems this season (mostly with flights).

It will be pretty hard to fly back over the shark here, because the tent thing probably eliminated a lot of semi-serious people from ever wanting to give this a shot. Ask yourself this question: If you were Randal, and you just watched season six of The Apprentice, would you still want to want to go on the show?


Taking another look at the six seasons in one big long line, it seems like season five was when a significant portion of the general fan base lost interest in the show. The season 4 finale was watched by a lot of people, but by the time season 6 started, NBC seemed barely interested in finding a time to show it.

I'm just not sure why at this point. Maybe it was Brent. He was harder to take than the tents, and if you think about it, just about the same level on the Gimmick scale.

The only way I see an Oprah version is if the show moved from NBC to ABC (as Oprah's show airs mainly on ABC stations and has since it launched in 1986 and she I believe does several specials a year for ABC), along with Oprah getting complete control over content in any version she did.

I still say on NBC if Mr. Trump is replaced, it should be with Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones and the show originating from Dallas next season. With Jones, the NFL would likely come aboard as well since they would likely want to make sure any version with an NFL owner in charge would be up to their standards, but in return for that the NFL would also heavily promote a Jerry Jones version of the show both on NBC and other networks when NFL games are airing, plus its own NFL Network with repeats probably airing on both CNBC and the NFL Network. It also doesn't have to be entirely about football, as Jones was a successful oilman before he ever bought the Cowboys from Bum Bright (real name) in April 1989, nor about the Cowboys and/or their sponsors, as a task or two could be stuff for NFL Films for instance.

The problem with Oprah as a potential replacement is that this show is the last thing she needs to do.

It's rather like questioning the motives of all the candidates from recent seasons of the show; they all like to say how wildly successful they are in their chosen field, which leads you to wonder - if that's really the case, what are you doing auditioning for this trainwreck?

I think the original rules were best
PM, no immunity, no repeats, no tents, and honestly I wish the viceroys were George and former winners including Kendra, Randal, and Bill Rancic. Ivanka though nice reeks of nepotism. Multiple fires, and then pit the final 2 in not just one task but several.

I kinda wish it would be an Apprentice Second Chance, in that former candidates who were fired but delivered a good showing were given a second chance. I'd include

women
S1 Amy
S4 Alla
S4 Rebecca
S2 Jennifer Massey

men
S2 Bradford
S6 James
S2 Andy
S1 Troy
S1 Kwame

After this season:

Not under the pressure they once were, I suspect they may go back to the "no gimmicks" rule of earlier seasons with one exception: Returning to the exemptions that were in place from seasons 2-4, though with a stipulation that exemptions can be stripped under certain circumstances. Since it's possible the next season won't be airing until April of next year (and as a result might not have to be filmed until as late as January-February or even March of 2008), they will likely have a lot of time to fully plan out what they want to do (and it would be very interesting if they returned to New York to film in the dead of winter like we saw with The Cut during its one season in the summer of 2005, when they actually filmed one episode in the middle of a blizzard and another in absolutely frigid conditions that January as I recall).

I dunno about that. The show definitely seems to be on the bubble, so if it does manage to get the thumbs-up for another season, that would mean they'd be under more pressure than ever to show renewal was justified. (And you know Trump doesn't want to have to deal with continued questions about declining ratings).

One of the most perceptive comments over the last couple of weeks (sorry I can't locate it right now whoever posted it) was the observation that as the show continues it has turned ever more in on itself - instead of real business people as Trump's aides, we have his own children or other contestants, past and present; instead of consulting with real business leaders, they get to meet the show's past winners, etc. In the finale, when Trump said there was a surprise guest, I wondered, "Gee, is Regis recovered already?" But, of course, it was George - once a mainstay of business legitimacy, now a brief walk-on.

Given this de-evolution, I fully expect Burnett to take a cue from his Survivor franchise and try the "all-star" approach by bringing back noted past contestants to compete once again for Trump's favor.

I would agree with most that the S1 finale is the JTS moment for these reasons, some already stated:
- Trump becoming the character, and not the businessman; the live reveal was really bad
- The last non-corporate sponsored tasks. No task (in considering the tasks themselves and not the actual resulting chaos) since S1 has even compared in how great the S1 tasks were, and I blame the watering down for corporate sponsorship as the cause.
- Omarosa. There has been, and never likely will be, anyone as amazing to watch as Omarosa. I'd almost back up to her firing as the true JTS moment, but you have to include her final task performance for the whole Omarosa experience, so finale when Trump asked Kwame why he never fired her as the defining Omarosa/JTS moment.

Outside of that, I would agree that the Pamela firing over a $10 loss on a several thousand dollar project, the 4-way firing, and the dual team loss over cucumber porn are also close candidates for JTS moments. But really, this show has never felt the same since S1, and simply because I can't spell out a specific point where that happened, I basically believe the S1 finale, as a whole, is the JTS moment for TA.

I previously had posted that I thought it was the obvious stunt casting with obvious soon-to-be firees that had gotten the show off-track, but a friend pointed out that it could be argued that this was done purposely in order to test the other players (i.e., how do you deal with problem co-workers?). Which, I'll admit, is valid in a warped sort of way (although not terribly fair to those cast because they were considered real tools).

For a single, sucktastic, on-air moment, though, the first thing that comes immediately to mind is - magic 8-ball. (Off the top of my head I was thinking that Stacie's firing happened somewhat in the middle of the show's run, but, checking the recap archives, I see it actually happened in episode 3 of season 2. Wow. That was even earlier than I thought.) It wasn't even so much the swift and vicious judgment of the Coven, rather, it was Trump being completely taken in by them - "well, if they all say you're batshit, there must be something to it." Idiot. This shit's being filmed - we can see that it's a bullshit attempt by the group to cover their collective asses and deflect responsibility. Speaking for myself, the show took a major hit in crediblity and never fully recovered.

ITA, this was one of the worst moments in the run of the show. In fact, it not only qualifies for a JTS moment, I think it would be a contender for 'The 100 Worst Moments on TV" if they had such a show. Stacie J. was clearly being railroaded, and Trump was taken in by that. I agree that in that moment, his credibility as an astute businessman took a huge hit. I thought most of his decisions were correct in the first season, and it was a surprise to me that he appeared to have more common sense than I had expected. But the way he handled the Stacie magic 8-ball situation showed me for the first time how really lacking in judgment he can be.

I'll add the firing of Carolyn to the list of JTS moments. Even though it didn't happen on the show itself, the way it played out in the press further eroded my respect for Trump, and gave me one less reason to watch. Carolyn was a big part of the early success of this show. She also brought a crisp professionalism to the early seasons. She called out the first-season women for blatantly using sex to win, and she called out the second-season women for their abject unprofessionalism. Carolyn did have a few less-than-stellar moments as the seasons wore on, but still, in contrast to Trump, she was still so much more business-like.

Trump has always blathered on about loyalty, yet he was terribly disloyal to Carolyn, IMO. After her years of service, he could have allowed her to leave his company with some dignity. It wasn't necessary to tell the world she was fired, and that her success had gone to her head (even if it had). He's a fine one to talk, anyway. The way Carolyn was fired made me suspect that DT just came up with some excuses to get rid of her so he could put Ivanka in her place.

The funny thing is, he still hasn't learned his lesson from that. He may not be so quick to judge someone as batshit crazy, but he does follow the mob mentality in firings. Think about it: How many times was someone fired this season due to everyone on the team saying that person deserved to be fired instead of task performance?

Very true, he hasn't learned his lesson. For the show to work for me as any semblance of a business-related competition, I depend upon Trump to make logical decisions, and cut through the BS in the boardroom. I think he did that in the first season. IIRC, Trump fired Ereka because she sent her friend (Katrina?) back up to the suite, when she was partially responsible for the loss. I think she took Troy and Bill (or maybe it was Bill and Nick) into the boardroom, and Trump rightly ripped her for protecting a friend when that friend should have been in the boardroom. But when it came to Stacie J. and others after her, he started acting like he couldn't decide for himself, that he needed to go along with the groupthink.

IMO, the show only works as a trainwreck now, and not even a very entertaining one. As has been mentioned, there's no longer anything shocking about how Trump will act, or what he will say in the boardroom. It's all old hat now.

I want to add the second-season finale as a JTS moment. The show was a bloated three hours. When Trump trotted out person after person to tell him who he should hire, it made him weak and indecisive. He had probably already made up his mind to hire Kelly, and was just asking people for show. But it didn't do anything for his image. Having that guy "Frozen Calamari" who could barely get out a coherent sentence, didn't help matters.