Can't tell the difference between a mambo and cha cha? Want to know what type of hold you need for the foxtrot? Trying to figure out what is a heel lift? (I've watched this show from the start and I STILL don't know what that is.) This is the place to discuss the proper form, technique and what else to expect on the dances performed on the show.

Here's a question for the true dancesport experts among the TWoPpers:

The night of the tango, Laila and Maks were severely lectured - and marked down - for breaking the hold in their tango. Later, Joey and Kym and one other couple [I forget whom] also broke hold, though not for as long. Not only were they not penalized, but Joey and Kym got rave reviews and top marks.

What was the difference here? Was it the length of time for which the couples were broken, or some element I didn't notice? It's been making me crazy...

Well, I'm no dancesport expert, but I think I can help. I believe it wasn't the length of time, as much as it was WHEN they did it.

From what I remember from last season for the tango (and the quickstep, as well), the couple can be apart for the FIRST 10 seconds and the LAST 10 seconds of the dance. At all other times, the couple MUST be in closed hold.

That's why the Mario/Karina 'rolling on the floor' moment, and the Lalia/Maks 'break apart and twirl separately for a good 15 seconds' moment got hit on so severely. The #1 basic rule of the dance was seemingly ignored by people who should really know better.

Let the record reflect that this is a DWtS rule, not a "normal" competition rule. You're either dancing international tango, and you don't break apart at all, or American tango, and you break apart whenever the hell you please.

Hopefully someone can help me remember, because I'm not 100% sure, but did Mario either say, or did we read somewhere that he fell in his tango with Karina? I think it came out after the end of the season, but again, I'm not entirely positive about that.

He never said it--but even if he had, it's not true. I think it was actually a few Mario apologists who were trying to claim that he and Karina never intentionally broke hold, but that he was merely trying to save her from falling. However, that theory doesn't hold water for two reasons.

First of all, if you watch that Tango closely, you'll see that it wasn't really a "fall" at all. Karina deliberately lay down and let him roll around on top of her. It was a choreographed move, not an accident.

Second, he expressly admitted during one of the interview segments that both he and Karina knew they were breaking the rules by doing that little "stop, drop, and roll" bit in the Tango, but they did it anyway because they thought the viewers would find it entertaining. You can't admit to deliberately breaking rules one week and then claim that it was really an accidental "fall" the next after you've been called out for doing it.

I vaguely remember him saying that they fell in rehearsal, which is what gave them the idea to do it in the routine.

Thanks for clarifying. It was bugging me, not remembering it correctly.

Thank you, Tango Lady. It drives me up a wall when the judges make up their own rules. They accept American Smooth waltzes and foxtrots, although I remember Len whining about hold breaks in Season 1. I guess somebody filled him in on Smooth and Rhythm afterwards.

However, the judges don't penalize "American Smooth quicksteps", even though there's no such thing.

They should be penalizing American Smooth quicksteps. Like tango, quicksteps are supposed to be International Standard. It's the other dance where they're forbidden to break hold for 80% of the dance.



Could you be mixing this up with his paso doble? Mario fell when they did it the first time. He talked about it during the clips when they redid it for the finale.

ETA: I know some swing dancers here feel very strongly about the difference between swing vs. jive. I've never done jive and my swing experience consists of beginner's group classes a few years ago. So will one of you enlighten me on the technical differences? What makes for good swing vs. good jive, and why do ballroom dancers not do swing well?

I have a question about the move in which Apolo lifted Julianne from the sitting splits to standing splits last night during their rumba.

Does that require a lot of strength to lift Julianne's leg (on either or both their parts), or is it mostly a leverage/fulcrum engineering issue? (Not that I'm reducing it to sterile engineering, cause it was unbelievable!)

Is this a time when Julianne's "core" and abdominal muscles are critical? How the heck is it executed?

Zuleikha, it's honestly something best seen as opposed to explained in writing. I'd check out clips of the Silver Shadows on Youtube, or of the Ultimate Lindy Hop Showdown. From those, you'll get names of current world-class lindy hoppers and can look at more clips of them. You should be able to see the aesthetic differences very quickly. If you want specific names of exemplar couples, I can give those to you.

Briefly put, "swing" is an into-the-ground dance as far as lindy hop is concerned. I'm leaving East Coast Swing out for now, and West Coast Swing has a different aesthetic from lindy that I don't know enough about to properly describe. As far as "swing" goes, those are the majors (with allowances for shag, balboa, bal-swing, Imperial, blues, and a host of other dances). Default stance is much like athletic ready position - think playing man-to-man defense in basketball, ready position to volley in tennis, etc. Knees bent, weight on balls of the feet, bent slightly at the waist, ready to drive/explode. Quick flicking kicks are things you will not see in lindy hop, because when we kick, we kick charleston-style, with the power coming from the body/hip, and the leg from the knee down simply extending out.

The style of lindy I do relies heavily on momentum parallel to the floor - generating it by stretching away from each other as initiated by the lead - and using that momentum to propel both dancers through music that drives at upwards of 220 beats per minute. I do not know if jive dancers dance that fast, but I don't think they do. WCS dancers definitely don't, and lindy posture is a direct result of dancing that fast. You have to drive out of/dance into the ground in order to move that quickly.

Ballroom dancers don't swing because they're not taught to swing like we are, and are taught a large number of things - mechanically and aesthetically - that go against what we do. Doesn't mean they can't learn it; just means that they don't, and have a lot of muscle memory to overcome if they want to match Harlem dancers.

I'm no ballroom expert, but if they are going to allow a ton of open work in the waltz and foxtrot (American smooth style?), than why not the tango? Even the quickstep they could incorporate some charleston work out of hold. Why not just do International or American smooth for all the standard styles, not just a few?

This ticked me off last year, because when Joey and Edyta did their first quickstep they put in his tap routine in the middle and received 10s. When they did the same thing in a later quickstep, they were scolded and penalized.

Len also bugs me with his "I don't want Cirque de Soleil" one minute (e.g. Joey/Edyta's jive), but doesn't give the same criticism to other couples who do non-lift tricks (HEATHER). I think that maybe they should allow lifts in some of the dances (maybe the jive?). They could have a rule where there was one lift per routine. It's not like they follow any actual ballroom rules anyway.

This same issue has tripped me up a number of times. I love to dance international tango, but I think it'd make a lot of sense from an entertainment point of view to allow these dancers to do American tango.

It bugs me that the official website STILL doesn't identify the tango as international style (with no hold breaks), even though the rest of the description has been updated. What's up with that?

Am enjoying your descriptions, Viscount of Monte Cristo. Sometimes I love reading about dance as much as I love seeing it.

I think when you're looking at any of the competitive Ballroom/Latin dances, it's important to remember that what you're looking at are heavily stylized and codified versions of dances that people danced socially for fun for the most part (well, I'm not completely convinced about Paso Doble, but other than that...). As another example, as much as everyone goes on about Latin Samba being all about hot sweaty nights in Rio, the Samba that people actually dance in Brazil looks nothing like the Samba that is competed in International Latin.

As for Lindy/Swing/Latin Jive, to add to Viscount's fine post, Lindy Hop which forms the basis of virtually all of the dances considered "swing" derives from Charleston which originated with African-Americans, generally former slaves. The basic position, as Viscount explained very well, is "ready" position, heavily influenced by African dance positions. It is not the same as the "pulled up" position that you see in Ballroom and Latin dance (which is similar in ballet, jazz, etc.), although if this were a more detailed discussion you can get into the question of the similarities between the two. The "ready" position enables the Lindy Hop dancer to use the tremendous momentum that is generated in Lindy Hop without flying out of control. International Jive is (like most Ballroom and Latin) "pulled up," that is the posture is extremely upright which enables the dancers to get the speed for the quick flicks and kicks and speed that is required for Jive.

In addition, for the most part, Lindy Hop is phrased in counts of 8, with a "swing," that is certain counts are "hung" while others are accented. It's not really the same for Jive, which is based more around 6s with pre-set choreography that needs to be able to fit to whatever music is thrown at you in a competition.

As for why Ballroom or Latin dancers can't swing, yeah, a lot of it's muscle memory. The "pulled up" position is very trained in, and it takes a while for the change in position to take hold after a lifetime of being told to "pull it up!" It's very similar to watching ballet dancers attempt hip hop for the first time. As much as they intellectually understand the change in position, it takes a while, and it looks strange for the first few months. However, once they "get it" (both Ballroom/Latin dancers and ballet dancers), they're often able to harness their fundamental training to the new discipline, and are often quite fine. But yes, it takes time.

Dunno if that was a confusing answer....

There is no American smooth quickstep. Quickstep is an international standard dance. I do see your point though. I do wish they would decide to either go with the International 10 dances OR American smooth and rhythm. Allowing American smooth foxtrots and waltzes and the mambo while penalising Argentine tango and skipping the Viennese waltz altogether does make one wonder what on earth they're thinking.

Thank you, viscount and sidwich. Those were both really great explanations. But it's left me with what I now realize should have been my first question, which is: what exactly is swing vs. lindy hop? I've seen plenty of lindy hop (it's one of the few dances that aesthetically I just don't appreciate no matter how skilled) and I definitely see the difference between lindy hop and jive! When I learned swing (both East Coast and West Coast), it was presented as something different from lindy hop although a lot of people mix swing moves and lindy hop together. Is that inaccurate? You guys seem to be using lindy hop and swing synonymously.

Even with that lingering terminology confusion, your explanations have helped guide my eye towards seeing the differences.

"Swing" is the broadest term, covering lindy hop, East Coast Swing, West Coast Swing, charleston, balboa, bal-swing, shag (collegiate/Carolina), Imperial, and lots of others. It's an umbrella term.

"Lindy Hop" refers to a specific type of dance that is mostly an 8-count dance (but certainly far from always), whose signature step is the swingout. It was born in Harlem from a number of parents (Charleston and others).

"East Coast Swing", as I've heard it used, can be used to refer to a more specific type of dance that is virtually exclusively a 6-count dance (as jive is), or can be used as another umbrella term, capturing all 6-count swing dances. It is also (and perhaps primarily with respect to this show), the official name of one of the American Rhythm dances (that would be American ballroom's equivalent to International's Latin dances). I don't do too much ECS myself, or know anyone who does principally/primarily ECS, so I'm not the best person to ask.

"West Coast Swing" refers to a specific type of dance born on the West Coast when a dancer who learned Lindy Hop in Harlem (Dean Collins) moved out to Hollywood and started dancing. It evolved from Dean's technique into WCS today, which is danced not to 30's/40's/50's jazz but to R&B and contemporary/pop music.

ECS and WCS are different from Lindy Hop, but all are "swing" (caveat - I'm not including American Rhythm ECS here, because I've seen far too little of it; if it looks like jive, then it's in the "not swing" pile). Lindy Hop will outright steal patterns from other dances and integrate when they fit, but saying "mix swing moves and lindy hop together" isn't quite accurate, since they're all "swing moves".

I was using "swing" and "Lindy Hop" synonymously earlier because the aesthetic they're calling on when they dress as WWII-era dancers is the Lindy Hop/Harlem/Big Band aesthetic, but the dancing they did wasn't. "Swing" is also a technical term referring to the music - when I say such-and-such song "doesn't swing", it means that the song lacks the particular syncopated rhythm/swung triple that defines "music that swings". When I say the dancers don't "swing", that's a bit less technical, but still referring to that lack of syncopation in their footwork.

Jive triples are even - 7-and-8, with the "and" placed exactly in the middle of the "7" and the "8". Swung triples are uneven - 7-and8, with the "and" placed closer to the 8 than the 7 (usually - this is jazz we're talking about, and this is merely the default, not an ironclad rule).

I have a question about the stars that are stiff. Is there anything they can do to overcome stiffness?

Shots. But if it lasts for more than four hours, they should go to the hospital.

Correction: competitive ECS and Jive are both counted with the "a" not the "and" e.g. Jive is 1,2, 3a4. (On the 3/4 not half-beat. Beats can be divided into quarters: 1 e and a 2) Jive may not please everyone, but I don't think it is such a total bastard of a dance. If one kicks Jive out of the Swing family, one would certainly have to kick a great deal of the contemporary WCS out as well. But that is the beauty of WCS, it is so marvelously rich and inclusive. WCS is what keeps me from becoming a snob about any of the dances I do, even the "ballroom" dances. WCS is a living, breathing, evolving creation - it reminds me that all the dances are, really, even if such is not as readily apparent with some of the "codified" ones.

Yes, but for most (probably all) of them, it's question of time which they don't really have.

First they need to remember to breathe. Which sounds stupid, but A LOT of people forget to breathe when they start dancing.

They also need to understand how to breathe while dancing, which is not necessarily intuitive, because the torso (abs, lats, pecs, etc.) needs to be kept strong at the same time as the breath is going in and out. It's totally different from the breathing that is necessary for good singing for example (which is from the diaphragm). Many people's intial response to holding those core muscles for an extended period of time is to stop breathing which obviously is not going to work if you're going to dance.

After the breathing thing, I think it's trying to get the head around the paradox of holding the "core"/lifting the center while simultaneously performing large movements with the limbs. The inside needs to be kept tight (stability, frame, groundedness, control, etc.) while the outside is creating the shape and movement that the audience sees. It's a very weird paradox of strength in the core while simultaneously relaxing into the movement, which takes a while to discover. I think what most beginners start out with is a very loose core (because they don't understand how to use it and/or it's not strong enough) and very small movement (because they're afraid and/or they don't understand how big BIG really is).

I think for someone like Ian, he obviously works out a lot, and I think Cheryl has impressed the importance of holding those core muscles, but I don't think he really understands the sensation of movement yet-that combination of "hold" and "relax," and he doesn't really have the experience of creating shapes which for a lot of people is a question of hours and hours and hours of practice in front of a mirror, experimenting with what a movement feels like and the visual result it creates.

That's just my experience, though.

Point taken. Honestly, I don't think jive is a total bastard of a dance. When done by professionals, it's breathtaking. I certainly can't do it very well at all. But it is what it is after decades of evolution.

In an unguarded moment, I would say that jive is in the "swing" family, just like WCS, but that the music almost never swings (ditto contemporary WCS), and the dancers almost never do, either (not so ditto WCS - they tear it up, for me anyway). I'm using "swing" to mean several things here which doesn't help clarity, unfortunately.

Oh crap, I just posted a little blurb on the thread for the last competition show & this thread is much more comprehensive on the whole "swing" debate.

Viscount, your point is taken about the swinginess in music, but the music & dance evolved & branched out (as you pointed out), and Jive & Jive-y music are indeed descendants of Lindy and so it is a swing dance. Perhaps not your flavor, and certainly should not be confused, but they are relatives.

I'm curious as to the distinction you made between EC Swing and American Rhythm EC Swing. As far as I know, they're the same. EC Swing and Jive have the same basic step, which is 6 beats, but many steps are 8-counts and many others are extendable so that you can fit the phrasing of the music, or just have fun continuing to spin, hop, flick, what you will.

The main distinction between EC Swing and Jive is that EC Swing is slower and uses the Rhythm hip action (weight goes into a bent leg) both on the triple step and the Rock Step. The hip leans a bit into the first step (dig, really, with weight on the inside of the ball of the foot) of the triple, and the swings up on the 3rd step. The Rock Step is as for the other Rhythm dances. So the first step is a dig down into the floor. In contrast, Jive is very "up". The center is sent up with every step in the triple step, and there's more lift in knees & feet than in EC Swing. The Rock Step is as for the other Latin dances, onto a straight leg. Pattern-wise, EC Swing and Jive are essentially identical, though there are steps which are identified particularly with one or the other, and minor styling differences.

I'm letting my personal preferences (and my lack of tolerance for certain things) color, well, everything. And while they're relatives, I see them as the third cousins that I try to ignore until they get drunk and pee on the dance floor at the family reunion. ;) Kidding (mostly).

Like I said, I don't know too much about ECS, since I don't know anyone who does it principally/primarily. They might very well be the same, but I thought there were some ECS dancers (read: 6-count swing dancers) who weren't tied to the Am Rhythm syllabus. If not, then I stand corrected.

I have a question about the shoes.

I know there are different shoes for different dances. How important are the shoes? Are they actually comfortable (I'm thinking the heals that the ladies wear)? Also, where do you get Ballroom/Latin shoes?

Thanks!

The shoes are pretty important, but from a guy's perspective (since I've never worn heels), the most important part is the sole of the shoe. The uppers can be as comfortable as a normal dress shoe, but what matters is the sole of the shoe, and the resistance it provides.

I'm a lindy hopper, so my shoes (and preferences for soles) differ, but I remember ballroom shoes for men being pretty much exclusively suede soled. Suede is slick enough that it allows slide, but also provides some grip when enough pressure (read: weight on the foot) is applied, unlike the hard leather soles on many dress shoes.

You can get ballroom/latin shoes lots of places - online, and any dance supply store, I'm guessing. Some dance studios sell them as well.

And to add to what sidwich said about overcoming stiffness (aside from my earlier joke), the key is realizing that speed, power, and quickness of reaction come not from tensed muscles but from relaxed muscles. If you hold your breath, or tighten the muscles in a limb, it's impossible to move yourself or that limb quickly. You only want to clench/tense up when you need it. Apolo likely has a very good understanding of the principle, because of what he does for a living. Laila, too.

The problem is that - and this is virtually uniform - when you're learning to dance, you have to think your way through just about everything you're doing - where to place your feet, how much bend in the knee, keeping shoulders down, where to keep your head, etc. These things - technique points all - added to learning a routine, all require full engagement of the conscious and virtually no engagement of the unconscious. Almost everyone I've ever known, when learning something new without having pre-existing technique on which to rely, will become tense as they "think" their way through the entire dance. Tension (and corresponding stiffness) leaves the less you have to think about what you're doing.

Obviously, some things will always be conscious (in an improvisational dance, what to do next, in the largest sense; in a routine, remembering your way through it). But time and practice are the difference between thinking and doing "kick-ball-change, triple step, triple step, be bouncy, flick the kicks, head up, and SMILE" (yes, I know that's not quite right) and thinking and doing "jive basic". Once you can relegate lots of the fine details to your not-quite-conscious mind, you'll be more relaxed (assuming you've been taught solid technique in the first place, which we can assume here).

The other thing is this - in the beginning, when you're thinking your way through everything, you end up just slightly behind, because you can't quite keep up if you have to think your way through everything. Fear of falling behind/screwing up + actually falling behind = tension. The less you have to think about/the more that is habit, the easier it is to focus on the things that need conscious engagement.

Ian could probably be just fine, with more time and practice. That Apolo and Laila and Joey are doing as well as they are speaks to their ability to learn certain things faster (regardless of how good a teacher is, people learn different things at different rates, and breakthrough moments happen when they happen), as well as to how their other physical activities might have helped to prepare them for certain parts of dance movement.

I had the idea that men's ballroom shoes were closer to ballet slippers than to boots - traction on the sole, but lots of flexibility in the upper. But I just happened to notice Cliff was wearing shoes with a decent amount of heel. Is that typical? Some quirk of his? A trick to make him look taller or to shift his weight toward his toes?

Men's standard shoes (for waltz, foxtrot, quickstep, tango, viennese) tend to look like dress shoes, like I said. Heel, yes, but no more than normal.

Men's latin shoes (for cha-cha, rumba, samba, jive, paso) tend to have larger heels (Cuban heels, I believe they're called).

To guess at the answers to your questions, yes, no, maybe taller (but only if the shoes are that way to make all dancers doing Latin taller) and maybe weight toward ball of foot (but only if the shoes are that way to make all dancers doing Latin shift weight toward ball of foot).

This is where I used to buy my shoes (and apparently, they're the official supplier for DWTS now): www.worldtone.com.

Since I know what shoe(s), size and heel I like, now I usually order direct the manufacturer which is a bit cheaper and I can give whatever specifications I need for the shoe directly as well, and I know a few dancers who do that. (My shoe of choice is Paoul from Italy, and they have great customer service).

As to the shoes themselves, I'm a shoe woman, and once you start combining my two favorite things (shoes and dance), it can get a little crazy. For me, the shoe is important. It needs to feel like an extension of the foot while still providing the ideal combination of slide and grip on the floor. The soles are very thin, made of suede (chrome) leather which also allows maximum "feel" of the floor as you dance.

Men's Latin shoes do have a heel. I don't know the Ballroom shoes for men as well, but I don't think they're completely flat either.

As to how comfortable they are, well, like with all shoes, there are well made dance shoes and poorly made shoes. I think well-made dance shoes are as comfortable as any shoe, but like with all heeled shoes, after a while the feet and back will feel it. For me, I could usually do a couple of hours in the heels and then would have to switch to coaching shoes or dance sneakers. Others may have a higher tolerance.

To add my 1 cent to the shoe discussion - yes, the shoes are really important in that they make a big difference in how you feel the floor, as sidwich says. If you try a pair on just for fun, you'll get a better idea of what that means.

I think dance shoes (even w/heels) are super comfortable. Especially if they're open toed. No matter what style, if you get them, don't forget to order the shoe brush. (For both men and women.)

The last note I have is that some of the brands come in European sizing, which was a bit strange for me, not being a European. So be careful to check what size you are getting. Also, styles vary a lot (e.g. the closed versus open toe distinction and all kinds of other things, like height of heel) and your proper size may get variable, depending on the style. If you don't know your size and it's at all possible, it'd be nice to get a fitting (or at least some advice) from a ballroom dance person before you spend all that money on a new pair of shoes.

Once you get a pair of shoes that work for you, though, you'll never go back.

Even the closed toe standard shoes are very comfortable for me (more so than the open toe latin shoes, actually). When I was working in an office where I had to dress up, I used to commute in tennis shoes and keep a couple of pairs of standard pumps in my desk to wear during the day. They're a lot better made than most women's shoes. The only thing that was difficult was going outside in them at lunchtime - the thin soles don't work very well on the Boston cobblestones. If I remembered, I'd change back into the tennis shoes for lunch.

Once you grow accustomed to how much better you can move in a pair of true dance shoes (either latin or standard/smooth), you will really realize how much you compromise to wear off the rack shoes on a daily basis (I'm speaking as a lady, here). I could put on any pair of my dance shoes (most with 2.5 inch heels) and run at a full out, legs stretched, someone-is-chasing-me sprint and feel very sure on my feet. In a normal pair of street shoes, I always compromise -- a shorter, flatter step because the sole isn't flexible, a crimp in my toes to be sure the shoe stays on, a caution of movement because I am never certain that the heel won't break at a bad moment. I have finally thrown in the towel and admitted that I want to wear dance shoes all the time. This place Best Ballroom Shoes allows you to pick shoe style, fabric/embellishment, and heel height, plus offers an option of getting a street sole. I have two pair now that I would wear out club dancing (and therefore not have to change shoes upon entering the club like with the suede soles) but that would also work for a dinner out or even a business meeting (one pair, anyway).

I cannot overstate the importance of shoes to a ballroom dancer. In a sense, they are our only true piece of athletic equipment for our sport -- all the rest is fun and decorative, but you can dance in jeans and a t-shirt. You must wear dance shoes to do the sport properly. Of all of the things that annoyed people in our studio about Master P., complaints were much less about dance ability and much more about the fact that he would not wear the shoes. To most of us, it was the same thing as being invited to go to a basketball camp taught by the best pros, and then refusing to take off your high heels or to chip a nail handling the ball.

Great post, Boton.

Let's see - to try to add something new - what does everyone think about the ascendance of the samba roll as an expected element in the samba routines? I've been sort of bemused/amused by the way the audience seems to have keyed in on that one move, out of all the dances.

The official shoe sponsor of DWTS

http://www.myspace.com/dancelifeusa

Can someone explain the difference between the Viennese waltz and a regular waltz? It seems the VW is faster and has a lot more rotation. Is there anything else?

I wish that if they wouldn't use the VW for the group dance, that they would at least have it as one of the dances the couples have to do. With the addition of the mambo, the latin-flavoured dances far outnumber the standard/smooth dances.

VW is also a lot flatter, with minimal rise and fall. In international style, it has a very short list of steps - right turns, left turns, change steps, and fleckerls. None of these celebrities are going to be able to do that last step - I know a fair number of prechamp and championship dancers who can't really do it. It would be very boring to watch international style Viennese waltz on the show. American style might be all right, but it's still pretty fast for these beginners. In the group Viennese, they all spent most of their time just doing turns around the outside, with a short "spotlight" of other steps in the middle. I think it would be tough for most of these dancers to sustain a full routine.

Interesting that you should say that, Tango Lady. Most of the European versions of DWTS--Belgium, the Netherlands, Austria (of course!), Poland, and Germany--still have the group Viennese Waltz, but the tricks in the solo sections are quite toned down (it seems to help that lifts aren't forbidden on these versions of DWTS anymore, so there isn't as much pressure to put them into the group Viennese Waltz. What you see instead is straight International Standard Viennese Waltz; however, the music is much more traditional than that used on the US version, which also makes a world of difference.)

The UK, Australian, and Italian versions of DWTS take a different approach to the Viennese Waltz. Instead of a group dance, the Viennese Waltz in those versions actually is a competitive individual dance along with the others, so the couples in those versions are expected to do fully choreographed routines. The Netherlands also does the same thing on its Christmas and New Year's Eve specials (of which there is no counterpart, as yet, in the US). Check out this jaw-dropping individual Viennese Waltz from the 2005 Christmas special in the Netherlands, and you'll see what I mean about how well it works as an individual competitive dance.

Not sure if this should go in the music thread, but it seems more technical to me, so here goes: Since the dancers are performing to live music, what music do the dancers train to? And how precise are they about the speed of the live performances? Do the dancers and the band leader use metronomes and agree on settings? Presumably if the band took off at the wrong pace, it could really screw up the dance.

The pros probably think in terms of set tempos (beats per minute). Lots of ballroomers are aware of this and think this way.

I'm not getting within a 100 foot pole's distance of vouching for the band leader.



You betcha. :)

You think the pros have an internal metronome of sorts?

And, on a slightly different note (no pun intended), presumably to do all the choreography they need to have the timing of each particular song down to the second. I wonder if some music staff person makes some sort of a tape of the song with just piano or something, so they can use it for rehearsal and choreographing. I'm just wondering how it all works.

Yes...I'm quite sure about this part.



I don't have an inside track on the show so I don't know, but most dance studios can cue up a song and adjust the tempo using a wing-dingie on their sound-board-thingie. (If you're interested in tempo as such, you can google around for "ballroom music" and "bpm" and find out all kinds of info on recommended songs and tempi.)

I don't usually pay attention to this side of things, so I am betraying my ignorance about what that big music-producing-gizmo in the studio is and does. But, the answer MUST be something like, they use a recording of a song (I doubt the band or anyone has to record an original for them) and then they alter the tempo of the recording in the studio so they can practice. Then they tell the band leader, the band does what it does, and sometimes it is a huge surprise.

Yesterday, I attended my first ballroom dance class, and we were learning about how to follow your partner through your positioning in the "nest" of his arm and feeling where he is moving. That made me wonder about the female celebrities on the show. Do you think that learning choreographed routines makes it more difficult for them to get used to following their partners, and not just "doing the steps"? Or do you think they have enough time at the beginning to get acclimated to this aspect of dancing before they learn actual routines?

Yay, NewsGirl!


I don't mean to hog this thread, but ... (oink, oink) ... I can't resist saying, once and for all, how TOTALLY JEALOUS I AM of these celebs for learning to dance this way.

Ahem. To give my view, NewsGirl, I think the female celebs are getting the best possible deal for learning how to dance. Early experience with a great lead works wonders in understanding what should come next. And knowing the steps - also probably helps a lot at this stage. I'm not a huge fan of choreographed routines in general (others mileage may certainly vary) but all of this with intense personal coaching at this level - man. Jealousy, thy name is 2cents.

Here is my question:

This is actually for research on a story that I am writing. I have never taken a ballroom class/lesson (I would love to but can't afford it right now). I am also highly uncoordinated and have two left feet. So, therefore the main character also has these problems lol.

Anyways, the premise is that she is starting private lessons. Can anyone enlighten me as to what probably happens at the first lesson, such as what is maybe taught/focused on first?

Any input from those who have taken lessons, both group and private, would be great since I really do not know anything about ballroom dancing. My love of Maks has inspired me to write a story and I hate not being prepared lol.

Thanks!

Footwork first. Techniques come much later, the first thing a student should know is where their feet go.

Thanks for your answer, justmy2cents. And I am just as green with envy as you are! I guess my weekly session will have to suffice for now.

AudyGal, at our first (group) lesson, we learned some really basic footwork that our teacher called, simply, "The Walk." We didn't actually dance with our partners until the last 15 minutes. When we did, though, we focused on proper hold position, and, for the women, how to "listen" to your partner so you can follow his lead.

For sure, a bit of banter about whether the student has any prior experience and what they would like to learn (like, what is your favorite dance?) and why. I don't know quite how they do it, but my very best teachers have always been able to learn a lot from that first lesson (there's a lot more talk in that one than in later lessons) - I feel like they are taking a psychological inventory of me and of my learning style.

I love my best teachers. :)

As far as mechanics - proper hold (5 points of contact if it's a dance like waltz - you can google for it) and some discussion, demo, and doing of the "basic step"...and going on from there. Maybe if it's Maks, it's a Latin dance, and Maks might demonstrate both footwork and what you're trying to do with your hips. Which reminds me of a conversation we've had around here somewhere - teachers can sometimes be insistent about placing students' hands on the appropriate part of the teaching anatomy in order for the students to feel the motion for themselves. It can be highly beneficial.

Oh really justmy2cents. Now all I can think of is placing my hands on the inappropriate parts of a certain hot Russian's anatomy. Thanks a lot!

Thanks everyone for the info. This will make my writing hopefully better lol. Or at least maybe a tad bit more accurate. I still think I need a personal lesson from a world champion. Hmm...wonder who that would be? (In my dreams I know...or my story!)

Some studios offer a free (though often short) trial lesson, or you could go to a group lesson & arrive early and stay late to observe the private lessons.

I wouldn't normally teach a woman an intro private lesson, being a follower myself, but here's what I'd cover in a 45-minute lesson.

In an intro lesson, I'd ask the reason for taking the lesson, any intentions (wedding in 2 weeks? want to know what to do at Salsa clubs? want to be world champion?), dance & sports background, and any injuries or other concerns, and if there are any questions before we jump in. Then the reassurance that ballroom is based on walking, and they got in the studio, so evidently they're pretty good at that already. We do walks forward and backward (alone). Then sideways & close. Then follower's hands on leader's shoulder, and do forward and backward walks, keeping an even distance apart. Then, as you might guess, sideways. Then we come into hold, explain the hold & offset position, & do a few more walks. Then - Foxtrot basic (I start with American Foxtrot unless the initial interview steers me differently). Man starts with left foot and lady with right; it's easy to remember because the lady is always right, ha ha. The step is Forward, Forward, Side Together, timing: Slow, Slow, Quick Quick. The sounds of Slows and Quicks are all over the place in the studio as other lessons are going at the same time, and maybe some couples practicing too. Likely the music will not be the dance we are doing. If no Fox comes on, I'd leave the couple to practice & go change the music. I'd add the Promenade step & perhaps the Swing step also. Then we change to Swing. I demonstrate the leader's part, and let the lady know she does the mirror image; by the time he gets it the lady is usually ready as well. This is in a slightly different position and uses hand connection, a little push-pull. We do Outside and Inside Underarm Turns, more if the lady is capable. If time allows, I would do Rumba & Waltz - box step in two different styles, and a step or few in each.

You might have to stop suddenly in the middle of dancing, to avoid a collision with another couple or the wall. People will be coming and going, changing shoes like it's Mr. Roger's Neighborhood. Plenty of chatting, personal and competition news (& gossip). Some people looking a little lost, wanting to fit in but not feeling like they're even seen by anybody. A couple of people who may be going a bit far with the flamboyant styles in ballroom. Definitely a wedding-prep couple. Perhaps a woman of certain age who is not dancing so much as merely glowing next to her handsome young teacher (and plenty who are quite good very serious dancers). There might be a competing couple arguing.

During the lesson, there is apologizing and confusion and looking at feet and staring into the leader's eyes, as if the instructions on what to do next are being communicated via ESP. Stepping on feet, being on the wrong foot, not moving when you should. None of that is any concern, as you're doing something for the first time and everybody starts that way. Lots of jokes.

At the end of the lesson, there's a little flourish - a twirl perhaps, maybe the feeling that you should curtsey. Then a little business - that's just a taste, you see, there's Tango - Cha Cha - oh you know about those? How about more lessons? Some studios will whisk you into a separate office and talk about big expensive packages, with a discount today only. Others are pay-as-you go, with group lessons as well as privates. You make you choice, and head out - humming some Frank Sinatra, very aware of how you are standing and walking foot to foot, thinking that those shoes everyone was putting on probably help to get that extra twirl or two...