After much recommendation, I've started watching the remake of "The Forsyte Saga." I've gotten through the first disc (Eps 1 and 2), and I have to say, I like Soames better than Irene and Phil. Which makes me a bad person, I know, but at this point, Soames hasn't done anything too awful. I know I'm supposed to sympathize with Irene, but she married Soames only for money, knowing she didn't care for him or think they'd get on well. What did she expect? At this point, she's just a real pill.

Gina McKee was glowing in "Notting Hill," but in this show, I think she was miscast. Irene, as portrayed by McKee, is such a cold, lifeless, blah character, that the only reason I could see Soames being instantly attracted to her and obsessed with her, and Phil prefering her over fun and youthful June, is if she's a knock-out. In the ball scene where Irene is in her Scarlett O'Hara red dress, she looks emaciated -- you could cut glass with her collarbones and jaw. I don't think she's right for the part.

I know from reading reviews that Soames is going to get a lot less sympathetic. But at this point, I just want to make Irene eat a sandwich and smile, and realize she got what she wanted out of the deal -- money.

Edited to fix embarassing spelling error so I don't look quite so illiterate.

Actually, having read the first two trilogies repeatedly, and having watched the first miniseries obsessively [the one with Eric Porter, Kenneth More and Nyree Dawn Porter as Soames, Young Jolyon and Irene], I can tell you that it is not uncommon - or necessarily wrong - for one's sympathies to go to Soames, for a lot of different reasons. In fact, Galsworthy once said that while he conceived of Soames as the 'villain' as he wrote the first book, "The Man of Property", he realized eventually that Soames had become the true hero of the saga. As you go on watching - and reading, if you take on the books, which I do recommend - you may or may not agree, but I think you will see real evolution and depth in the character.

annalaw, you are certainly not feeling alone in feeling sympathetic to Soames. Damian Lewis inhabited the character in such a way that it was extremely difficult not to understand his actions. Except for his attraction to Irene (correct soelling), that is but I couldn't understand that about Phil and Jolyon either. At least Jolyon had no other prospects at that point, while stupid Phil had the vibrant, intelligent and quick witted June.

Another favorite of mine is Soames' sister Winifred. She was such fun to watch and I loved how she actually loved Soames. I don't remember other members of his family loved him, but rather tolerated him since he was socially acceptable, unlike the wife-leaving and nanny-banging Jolyon.

Thanks for the spelling correction -- I could be less lazy and do a little looking online to see how it's spelled, but I went phonetically (I've never heard "Irene" pronounced the way it is in the show).

I'm really liking the casting, save McKee, at this point. Amanda Root looks like she's having such fun, and Ben Miles is playing the posh ne'er-do-well perfectly. Damien Lewis is doing a bang-up job. I get that Soames is controlling of Irene, but I have to wonder what's the chicken and what's the egg in that situation -- is he controlling because she keeps giving come hither eyes to Phil, or is she into Phil because Soames is a controlling jerk? Soames puts up with all of Phil's little egotistical tirades, and is quite fair to him (again, with the caveat I've only seen the first two eps). I don't know many patrons who would tolerate the person they've given theiir start to being so discourteous. And, you know, cuckolding him.

So I'm glad I'm not the only one finding Soames a very compelling, not entirely unsympathetic character. I think, given the Victorian model of marriage, the lack of any legal autonomy by wives, and the "close your eyes and think of England" approach to the woman's sexual satisfaction, Soames isn't that bad of a guy. He isn't beating her, he isn't cheating on her. I know those aren't high standards, but I'm having a hard time justifying Irene's treatment of Soames at this point. It was a mercenary marriage, and Soames seems to have started out with the desire to make Irene happy... Irene just wanted financial security.

Oh, I loved Winifred! She really was Soames's best friend, as well as his sister, and they stood by each other through thick and thin [Winifred has her own share of heartache and trouble, of course]. But I disagree that no one else in the family loved Soames - his mother and father were firmly in his corner at all times, and if James grumbled at him a lot, well, James grumbled at everyone, and the maiden aunts all adored Soames. The 'Jolyon' branch had no use for him, and some of the other young Forsytes were rather cruel to him, but he did have his adherents.

I saw this a couple of years ago, so maybe I was projecting the dislike I felt the viewers were supposed to feel against Soames on his family. And my love for him makes me a tad overprotective. God I had so much fun watching this with one of my roommates and gushing about Soames (Man, pasty redheaded guys can be hot to!) and hating Irene with the fire of a thousand suns (Don't you know what you have there, rhymes with witch?).

Great timing, annlaw78. NYC's channel 13 just ran the entire series on Saturday night. I have all seven eps waiting for me on Tivo. For others in the area, they are also running it in weekly installments for seven weeks starting this Saturday.

Damian Lewis made this series for me. I have to agree with all of the anti-Gina McKee comments. She was just horrible. I didn't see why everyone fell in love with her instantly. The rest of the cast is great, especially Ben Miles as Monty and the guy who played George. I love their commentary running through this series and To Let.

I don't think it's wrong to feel for Soames. Having also read the novel, I think the beauty of the story and of Galsworthy's characterizations is that there is not a single character who isn't deeply flawed and who requires much consideration. I didn't come away from the novel (or miniseries) feeling that there were any heroes or any villains. Yes, Soames does some awful things. And yes, Irene (and to some extent Jolyon) are both trapped in societies that they don't really fit into. But they are also both selfish and use their problems to excuse their questionable decisions.

One scene that always stands out for me in the film is the one where Jolyon tells his wife that he is leaving her for the nanny. He truly loves her in a way he never loved his wife, and he is willing to suffer all of the consequences for his actions - he doesn't take any money, loses all of his status and his family. But (and this may just be the actress who played her imbuing her with a great deal of sensitivity, but I don't think so) in the wife's eyes you can see real hurt and shame and you wonder how much Jolyon ever tried to be a husband to her. Irene doesn't love Soames, and he does some horrible things to her. Jolyon is trapped in a marriage he doesn't want. But both chose to enter these marriages at some point, because there was something that the situation offered them that they couldn't or wouldn't pass up. When they leave those marriages, on the one hand I suppose we are supposed to see them as passionate and/or brave, but I wondered if their beauty and charisma didn't give them options that wouldn't have been available to people like Soames or Mrs. Jolyon. Jolyon is handsome and talented and charismatic - he will never lack for partners or options. Mrs. Jolyon is stuck. I think she loved her husband, or at leat tried hard to, but I wonder if he ever tried back. I see Soames as similar in this respect.

June is the one I always feel worst for, however. Irene is beautiful, but what else is she? June is witty and vibrant and not in any way unattractive. The way she is betrayed by her fiancee and supposed best friend is disgusting, especially as they make no apologies for it. And then the poor thing's grandfather and father also basically choose Irene over her. Poor June.

Didn't June end up as the bohemian type having affairs with younger men? Maybe that's just the ending I chose for her and worked into my memory as if it had actually happened. Either way, I love that.

I really wanted to slap Young Jolyon when, after his rapprochement with his father, his father asks him to give Phil a talking to as to the way he's treating June. YJ basically says "How can I say that when not long ago the family closed ranks against me for the same behavior?" Well, Jolyon, perhaps it is a bit hypocritical, however, the difference being your DAUGHTER who you sort of abandoned for 15 years might be helped by your telling Phil to bugger off.

I'm glad there's nothing wrong with me for liking Soames! I went into the series, having read reviews on Amazon and the like, thinking that Soames was a baddie and abusive to Irene... but so far, he's been a pretty decent guy. I imagine things will get uglier now that Irene has publicly cuckolded him with Phil at the ball.

Questions from those who read the book: how did the Forsytes make their money? I'm assuming they are "new," trade money, as they all live in London and Soames seems to be the first to have a country house. Soames and his father are solicitors, I picked up. But I haven't a clue what the others do that raised them to where they are.

As to June, I hope she'll eventually wise up and say to hell with Phil and find someone better. It was so cringe-worthy when she offered to "compromise" herself and sleep with him, and his response was "umm, no thanks."


My affinity for Soames is owing in no small part to my finding Damian Lewis absolutely dishy in a pale, thin, British, Paul Bettany way. Grr!

Mmmm...Damien Lewis. Nummy. Can we get him a guest spot on House, please?

What I love most about BBC literary adaptations is that they help me find new dreamy British actors to obsess over. Hence, my Netflix queue now has "Band of Brothers" in it, which I had avoided watching because, even though I love WWII-era stuff, I really don't think I could take six episodes of characters I'm attached to dying. But, I'll suffer through for the ginger one! It seems like every good-looking British actor under 35 with a penchant for period dramas has appeared in either "Band of Brothers" or "Blackhawk Down."

Oh, yes, June was in many ways the character for whom I felt sorriest. She was thoroughly betrayed by the man she loved, and by her best friend, who were so swept up in their grand passion that 'conventional morality' [and loyalty, evidently] were swept away by it. She forgave Irene - and would have forgiven Philip if he'd lived, I think, and then saw her grandfather's affections turn from her to the younger Holly and Jolly - as well as Irene herself, and never seemed to find any real happiness for herself. But she kept on, plucky and engaged by life. I always felt she deserved more.

I caught the entire series this weekend and came searching for a thread to see if my reaction to her was off-base. I'm glad to see I'm in the majority! I just couldn't understand why all those men fell in love with her.

I think Gina McKee is a very fine actress, but she was horribly miscast here, and I think it was particularly glaring because everyone else was so fantastic. She is a beautiful woman, but she looked much older than both Ioan Gruffudd and Damian Lewis. The only one I really bought her in a romance with was Jolyon, when they were both meant to be a bit older. I thought she was better playing the older Irene than the one who is married to Soames. Beyond the physical thing, she just had not spark to her. She always seemed so sad and dour. I guess the idea of saving someone is attractive to some men, and maybe this is partly what draws so many to her, but I think it was equally that she was supposed to seem mysterious, which she didn't. Her character is better conveyed in the book, but I don't recall having any great affection for her there, either. Someone like the girl who plays Soames' daughter in the second series would have been better, I think.

If you want to see McKee in a much stronger performance, try The Lost Prince - it's a very good film and I thought she was excellent in it.

One thing I remember about Damian Lewis' performance that I wanted to mention is how well he ages the character of Soames. You wouldn't think he could play him as a man in late middle-age, but he really sells it. Some of the other actors just looked like they'd had some makeup applied and some gray dye put in their hair, but Lewis walked, talked and moved differently. I was always very impressed by that.

I loved his walk and posture later on, especially when he was next to his young daughter. Such great contrast.

I completely agree about Damien Lewis' performance as Older Soames. He really did move like an older person. Obviously did his research.

I didn't have too much of a problem with Gina McKee as Young Irene mainly because I could see why Irene was cold and aloof. Didn't her stepmother push her into marrying Soames because it would be a step up for them when Irene had no interest in him at all? However, I don't think Irene the real person came through often enough for the audience to feel sorry for her. Most of the time, she came off as looking blank. If we'd seen a flicker of expression every now and then it might have been different. With the benefit of hindsight and after watching Bleak House, someone like Gillian Anderson might have been able to work wonders with the role of Irene.
That said, I thought there was much more life to Irene in the second series, To Let. She came across as being much warmer, more alive.

I wouldn't mind seeing these again actually. Must hunt them down.

I thought they should have cast someone more obviously knock-out attractive in the role (and Gina McKee's ultra-thinness, while en vogue now, was not really the desired figure back then) to explain why Soames was so instantly, deeply interested in her and would not let her leave him (and, later, why Phil would risk his career and place in society for her). She had no money, and frankly had very little personality or spark. So if the script was going to be weak re: Irene's personality, they should have cast someone who at least fit the bill physically as someone all these men would risk so much for to win and keep.

I don't mean to knock McKee -- she's quite lovely, and has a great smile. Problem is I've really never seen it this far into the series (Eps 1 and 2). She can look very severe and dour, and coupled with Irene's blah personality, I just have to wonder what, other than pride, makes Soames want to keep her so bad. She's quite a pill to him, and a bad friend to June. Her personality and character leave a lot to be desired.

Irene's stepmother did push her into marrying Soames, and was very clear to him that there was no money, so she'd be willing to "sell" Irene to him. But the decision was ultimately Irene's. Her stepmother said she needed to marry or get a job, to which Irene replied she wasn't qualified for any work. So rather than be a governness, like Jolyon's wife, she chose to marry Soames, knowing she didn't care for him.

I know I'm being too hard on Irene. Maybe the fact that McKee was nearing-40 made me expect Irene to act more maturely -- she didn't look like a young, inexperienced girl. Do we know how old Irene and Soames are supposed to be when they married?

I'm so happy to see this thread! My roomie and I were obsessed and managed to watch the whole series one weekend.

I totally loved Soames. He wasn't perfect. He did some terrible things. I sometimes found myself yelling " Dammit Soames!" at the screen sometimes, but he was still my favorite character. Damien Lewis' performance was amazing. I found him to be so charismatic in the role that I couldn't help but feel for Soames. In particular, Soames got me in the scenes after Irene left him and he wouldn't leave his bed. His pain, but his inability to express his this came through wonderfully. The other scene is the final scene of the series, which I won't get into for those that have not finished yet. I'll just say that the music mixed with Lewis' awestruck performance was incredibly powerful and officially made the series for me.

I was so firmly on Soames' side that I hated all the so called "good Forsytes." Both Young and Old Jolyon were awfully judgmental of Soames and the other Forsytes. They all seemed so damned self-righteous. Even June pissed me off through the entire series. Every chance she got, she was chipping away at Soames. The problem is that Soames never did anything to anyone but Irene. I never understood why the whole family seems to hate him from the beginning? Since when does being cold and boring warrant " You killed my baby!!!!" kind of anger and disdain?

I found Gina McKee to be terrible as Irene. I couldn't figure out what any of the men saw in her. She also seemed like an unrepetant bitch in the way she stole Phil and then just expected June to be ok with it. Irene's easy refusal to leave the Forsyte family alone was also a mark against her.

Ben Miles and Winifred were a highlight. They were consistently funny, but could also be heartbreaking.

I'm getting the next two DVDs from Netflix this weekend, so I'm sure I'll have a lot to post on Monday!

I don't get why June and Jolyon et al. were so anti-Soames (well, I guess being a trustee on family trusts is a rather thankless task, esp. when you don't go into the trust principle when the beneficiary asks!). I gather Soames is the family hardliner, all into rules and propriety, so perhaps he's easily the butt of jokes. But he's more than just that -- if he were simply pragmatic and snobbish, he'd have married a well-bred, respectable woman like Jolyon did. Instead, he made a rather unconventional choice in marrying Irene, with her being penniless, somewhat artistic and modern, and irreverent. So, for all that Jolyon and June like to make fun of Soames, Soames apparently had the fortitude that Jolyon lacked, and married to please himself, rather than what was the done thing. Of course, that hasn't ended well...

I excuse June's attitude towards Soames as her being young, and only knowing Soames as a stuffy elder uncle. June is young and romantic and I'm sure is appalled by what Irene is telling her of her loveless marriage.

Anyways, enough rambling! Looking forward to finishing out the first series, and then on to the second!

I read the book long before I saw either of the series, so I already had a view of the characters.

I think one reason Bosinney left June is because he didn't want to be her project anymore.

June is very likable in many ways. But she spent much of her life in "causes" because she had the contempt for money that people get when they've never struggled for it.

She apparently liked people only if they were underdogs. Part of the reason she took up with Philip is because he was an "unappreciated artist". Would she have cared for him as a successful man?

That's an interesting point. I do think that June had a bent towards what her father called 'lame ducks', but losing Philip, first to Irene and then to his early death, solidified that in her. Also, she may have been influenced by the disastrous marriages she saw or was aware of, and been wary of marriage.

As for Philip, I think he was 'fond' of June - hard not to be - but was completely swept away by Irene. I don't share his fascination for her, but it meant that poor June was never going to truly regain his focus, even if he had gone ahead with the engagement.

Soames married Irene because he wanted her. Period. The fact that she had no money was a plus for him, because it meant she didn't have the means to leave him. She was property in his eyes.

He built Robin Hill so that he could install her out in the country where she would be isolated from "unsuitable" friends like June.


The main reason I believe Jo and Irene are better people than Soames?

They are much more self-aware. Jo *knows* he's not perfect. After giving his son a talk on how to behave (before Jolly went off to university) he wonders, "did I have the right to say that?".

Irene admits she should never have married Soames.

I have no sympathy for Soames because he never doubts that what he does is right and proper and correct and that anyone who disagrees with him is wrong and evil and should be shot. (I know a lot of people like this in RL) He thinks of himself as the victim of life, Irene, Jo, the world.

That's one reason I laughed at the scene where he tells Fleur about his rape of Irene. He never thought of it as wrong, and he never would have spoken to his baby girl about s-e-x.

My sympathy for Soames comes from a core reality about him that is expounded at length in the books, and, IMHO, brilliantly conveyed by both Eric Porter in the original mini-series and Damian Lewis in the remake.

Soames seems to be a very dry, precise and unemotional man, but he is capable of love and he yearns to be loved. He sees these passionate love stories unfolding all around him and wishes that someone felt that way about him. Irene is the first person to elicit that in him and her resistance frustrates him because he believes that if he loves her and gives her 'everything' there is no reason she shouldn't love him. But not only does she not return his love, she develops a real revulsion towards him. This is devastating to him - he can come in the room when she is playing the piano or talking to someone else, and see her face close up, see the revulsion. Soames is far more sensitive than people think, and he feels her rejection even as he doesn't begin to understand it. When he builds Robin Hill he tells himself that it is all for her - it is to be beautiful, a showplace that will reflect her beauty and grace and taste, not to mention a great help to the fiancee of her best friend. But not only does she not respond as she 'should', she willingly gives to the upstart fiancee all the love and passion she has denied Soames - she betrays him [as well as June] and everyone takes her side! [well, except his parents and Winifred]. I'm not endorsing Soames's actions towards Irene at the climax, just delving into his POV.

At the end of the third book, "To Let," Galsworthy comments that Soames "might wish and wish, but he would never get it: all the beauty and love in the world!" And that is Soames's tragedy and that is one of the reasons I can't help but care about him and identify with him a little. Plus, Irene's passive-aggressive game with her son - "Don't worry about me, my dear boy, just think of yourself! ::sob::" - really turns me off.

The second trilogy, "The Modern Comedy", continues to build on these quiet revelations of Soames's character, and I think he earns his end, about which I will say nothing now, out of respect for the unspoiled.

TudorQueen you just summed up Soames brilliantly. So much so that I can't wait to get home and break out my dvds and watch all over again.

I feel quite sympathetic towards Soames, although I do not, of course, approve of his rape of Irene. Soames is utterly baffled and frustrated. He's crazy about Irene, he 'rescues' her from a horrible situation, and gives her everything she could possibly want. He just can't understand why she won't show him any affection. I understand that Irene doesn't really love Soames and so isn't capable of being loving or affectionate towards him, but I always sympathised with Soames' situation. He's living with someone with whom he is desperately in love, but who is unfailingly cold and remote towards him. To be honest, I think this situation is built up more effectively in the book - but is also conveyed quite well in the series where a coatless and hatless Soames chases who he thinks is Irene up the street. For someone as buttoned up as Soames, the scene showed his increasing lack of control quite well. I love the original version, but I think Lewis did 'simmering tension' quite well.

I'm squarely with those who were infuriated by the 'good' Forsytes (i.e. Young Jolyon and co.) I think part of the problem is that Galsworthy writes from a very post-Victorian point of view. He is definitively on the side of the more fin-de-siecle bohemians like June, Bosinney, Irene and Young Jolyon. Anyone who is seen to represent 'Victorianism' is placed more in the 'villainous' side. To a modern audience, however, I don't think this always works. The bohemians frequently come off as somewhat selfish: Bosinney and Irene betray June quite horribly (the scene where Irene and June meet in Bosiney's studio is done much better in the original), Jolyon is sleeping with the governess, Irene can be almost callous to Soames. They can all come across occasionally is being almost intolerably up themselves. The Victorians, however, whom we are supposed to almost look down upon as being less enlightened and intelligent as the bohemians, are stoic, family-oriented and tend not to screw each other over for their own selfish desires.

I thought Gina McKee was a disaster as Irene. She's is supposed to be remote and mysterious, not a big plank of wood. Also, Irene is supposed to move and hold herself gracefully. Nyree Dawn Porter did this wonderfully in the role - McKee is awkward and almost gangly. All in all, I felt Nyree Dawn Porter had the mysterious artistic siren thing nailed, you could understand why she was so desired. Gina McKee just came off as being socially awkward.

I'm not so fond of the second series, because I really like the actors who play Fleur and Michael in the original, but Lewis was excellent again. What was that little reconciliation scene between Irene and Soames all about, though?

For anyone who wants more Forsyte stuff, Galworthy also did a set of Forsyte short stories called On Forsyte 'Change. It can be tough to get a hold of, but I got my copy second hand on Amazon.

Yes, Soames was a "tragic" character. But I think some people (women especially) mistake that for a romantic trait. "If he only had the Love of a Good Woman..."

No. Love wouldn't have saved him. Perhaps it's not his fault that he could never see the beauty of the world - but it wasn't Irene's, either.

I feel pity for Soames. I don't feel sympathy for him. There's something *missing* in him. And it's not something someone else could give him.

I don't believe he ever truly loved before Fleur (his obsession with Irene was *not* love), and we see how destructive that was.

I think the story that Soames' mother tells about how he got a cat, dressed it up like a baby and then fed it too much was the best comment on Soames. He is far from being bloodless. He feels things a lot. Too much. I think he did love Irene, but he could only express it in his terrible way. Soames smothered people with his love, he had no clue how to love in a way that wasn't so overpowering/confining. Additionally, he was never romantically loved in return. I don't necessarily think the love of a good woman would have solved all his creepy problems, but it may have helped. Soames improved a lot after the birth of his daughter. Some of that has to be that he found someone he could finally lavish all his love on and receive love in return.

I've never seen the original series. I was born in 1981 and I must admit that I can't stand the thought of watching 26 hours of an old black and white tv series. Shallow, I know.

I agree, Amelie. Soames is capable of love, intensely capable, but he's so controlled and repressed he's not very good at expressing it. It's all pent-up, and as a result, when he does express it, it's too intense and concentrated. I agree also that his character improved after the birth of Fleur.

Bkwrm, I agree that there was something missing in Soames. For me, it's the ability to empathise that's not there. It's made apparent just after Irene leaves him: (I can't remember how they show this in the series)

"He stooped over the drawer where she kept her jewels; it was not locked, and came open as he pulled; the jewel box had the key in it. This surprised him until he remembered that it was sure to be empty. He opened it.

It was far from empty. Divided, in little green velvet compartments, were all the things he had given her, even her watch, and stuck into the recess that contained--the watch was a three-cornered note addressed 'Soames Forsyte,' in Irene's handwriting:

'I think I have taken nothing that you or your people have given me.' And that was all.

He looked at the clasps and bracelets of diamonds and pearls, at the little flat gold watch with a great diamond set in sapphires, at the chains and rings, each in its nest, and the tears rushed up in his eyes and dropped upon them.

Nothing that she could have done, nothing that she had done, brought home to him like this the inner significance of her act. For the moment, perhaps, he understood nearly all there was to understand--understood that she loathed him, that she had loathed him for years, that for all intents and purposes they were like people living in different worlds, that there was no hope for him, never had been; even, that she had suffered--that she was to be pitied.

In that moment of emotion he betrayed the Forsyte in him--forgot himself, his interests, his property--was capable of almost anything; was lifted into the pure ether of the selfless and unpractical."

As for saving him, to be honest, I never thought he was so far gone that he needed saving. He is much redeemed in the second half of the Saga.

So now I'm on to Episode 5, and Irene and Jolyon are quite annoying. If Irene is so fearful of Soames, why not just admit in court that she was Bossiney's lover and then be done with it? Is there some statute of limitations on that infidelity? Or, you know, honor be damned, make up someone so that she can get Soames out of her life. Instead, she goes and damsels in distress to Jolyon. Ugh.

Sorry, I can't stand Irene. I feel for her in that Soames is clearly obsessed with her, and Soames was wrong to have forced himself on her. But I'm tired of her jumping from one man to the other, looking to be saved.

And it's obnoxious to me that Jolyon, after June's speech about every man she's loved being pulled to Irene and loving Irene more, doesn't have the sense to keep Irene away. He's June's father, he has the whole abandonment thing ot make up for, but he's going to end up choosing Irene over his daughter. Which should make June feel great.

Even though I actually liked Young Jolyon, for the most part, I liked him a lot less once he got involved with Irene, and what you've said above was a huge part of it. I know June was the daughter of the one wife he didn't love, but that was hardly June's fault. She was a bright young woman with a terrific heart and spirit and I felt for her throughout.

She also had one of my favorite moments, with Soames, near the end of the second trilogy. After telling Soames that Fleur has taken up with Jon again, she starts to say something about Fleur being the one who - and Soames stops her and says, "I'll hear nothing against her". June, in the manner of her side of the family, has always hated Soames, but now she says, "I like you for that," and gave him her hand. And I liked June more than ever.

The founder of the dynasty is the first Jolyon Forsyte, the son of a Dorsetshire farmer who comes up to London in the early 1800s and makes his fortune as a builder. His descendants are a little embarrassed by him because he was kind of a diamond in the rough. But the next generation used the money he left to make fortunes of their own and lift themselves into the upper middle class. He has six sons:

1. "Old Jolyon" is a tea merchant. He is so rich that basically Young Jolyon, June, Jon and the rest of his descendants never have to work for a living;

2. James is a solicitor, and his son, Soames, follows in his footsteps;

3 & 4. Swithin and Roger invest their inheritances in real estate;

5. Nicholas invests in mines and railways; and

6. Timothy is a publisher, but he retires young (and I mean really retires - he never leaves his house) to live off his investments.

In 1920, Fleur marries Michael Mont, the son of a baronet, and this officially moves the family from being "upper middle" to "upper class". As Galsworthy puts it, "they had to move aside (i.e., be considered "society") to make room for all those so much more newly rich".

They took some liberties with June's character in this version.

In the books, she and Irene make peace with each other before Jo ever falls in love with Irene.

And Book June didn't hate Fleur, she felt sorry for the girl. In fact, she comes by Soames' house right after Fleur's wedding to wish her well.

You know, I kind of disliked Fleur right up until she laid the smackdown on John. There is something irresitible about characters that actually have some amount of self-knowledge. It was such a beautiful moment of maturity that I never expected from that character. I hated how dangerously in the mix the entire Jolyon clan got into Fleur and John's relationship. It kind of brought down the whole second series. It was just nonstop, "Don't see that girl. Her dad sucks and so does she." It got tedious after awhile.

The smackdown didn't happen in the original story, either.

Jon left the country to travel. He wrote a letter to Fleur wishing her well. She married Michael after that; Jon never pursued her.

Since I really, really hope that they'll do A Modern Comedy at some point, I'll spoiler this

Jon ends up marrying an American girl named Anne Wilmot. She only appears briefly, but she seems like a very quiet, mousy girl who's resigned to playing second fiddle to Irene. Irene never lets go of her stranglehold on Jon for a moment.

Which adds to my theory that the emotional blackmail Young Jolyon and Irene use on their son isn't really based on "You can't marry that girl! She's the daughter of the man we hate!". That's part of it, of course, but the truth is that Irene is extremely possessive of her son and would not welcome the idea of him marrying anybody and leaving her.

Although Irene and Fleur never meet face to face (how I'd have loved to be a fly on the wall for that), Irene hears and guesses enough about Fleur to know that she's trouble. As a daughter-in-law, Fleur would be Irene's worst nightmare: a strong-willed girl who takes a back seat to nobody and who will make dammned sure that Jon cuts the apron strings.

God, so thrilled there is suddenly a thread for The Forsyte Saga. Watched the whole shebang last spring. Personally, I heart Soames (yes..it probably is affected by a certain actor's glorious fire engine red hair..but I digress). Maybe it's because his desires were very simple, and they never changed. He wanted a wife, kids, and to live a quiet, respectable life. Unfortunately, he's completely incapable of seeing things from another perspective. Which pisses off the people around him, which keeps him from his desires, which pisses him off. He's not trying to make them miserable, he just doesn't get that what he wants is not necessarily what they want. He's clueless. I thought it was quite sad. Maybe I sympathize with Soames, because I actually do know a lawyer who is just like that, but in a 2006 context. He's a good guy, but I could totally see him doing all the wrong things to make someone happy (and yes, he does tend to have trouble in his relationships, and he never knows what went wrong.)
As for Irene. I wanted to push her down the stairs. I don't mind that she married Soames for financial reasons. Those were the times, it's what people did. I don't want to project 21st century mores onto that. I couldn't stand Irene because she seemed incapable of taking any personal responsiblity for her part in the failure of her marriage to Soames. Does Soames lose his shit in a big way? Yes. But she conveniently forgets hurting and humiliating him time after time. She always acts as if that was her right, her perogative. To me that's much worse than how Soames acts, because unlike Soames, Irene is *not* clueless. She knows exactly how what she does makes Soames feel, and she does it anyway. All I could think was that if a man treated me the way Irene treated Soames, I'd set his shit on fire.

I thought Fleur and Irene did meet, Albanyguy. When Jon takes Fleur to see his house in secret, and Irene bumps into them in the woods?

Does anyone remember Anne Wilmot and her brother in the original series? They sported the worst American accents I have ever, ever heard.

Jenn, I couldn't agree more with your view that this modern sympathy for Soames has a lot to do with our times as well. One might think it would be the other way around, with an early 20th century audience, scandalized at his wife's antics, siding with Soames. While a modern audience would shout, "Go on girl! Fight the power!" When in fact, the original audience was saying, "Go on girl! Fight the power!", while the modern audience says, "What a bunch of selfish assholes."
We've all grown up with the existence of self help manuals, 'relationship experts' on Oprah, marriage counseling, yadda yadda yadda. All inundating us with this idea that a relationship is work. So when we look with modern eyes at this story, we immediately look for the person doing the work. From a modern perspective, that's clearly Soames. He's the one making the effort. Is it all wrong? Is his effort completely fubar? Yup. But at least it's there. Irene? She's not even present. We never see her try, and to a modern audience, that's just not acceptable. If I had seen Irene try, ONCE, this would have been an entirely different story for me. Soames would have been the bad guy who just couldn't let go. But she didn't, so in my eyes, she's the asshole.
Bkwrm, it's kind of funny. Your reasons for disliking Soames and liking Jo and Irene are the exact same as my reasons for liking Soames and disliking Jo and Irene. Lack of empathy and self-awareness. Even down to knowing people like Soames in RL. It all comes back to perception and our individual life experiences I suppose.

What bugs about Irene is that she at once wants a "modern" (marriage for love, independence) marriage, but also plays tired old "weak" woman role over and over again. If she is such an adventurer, a Bohemian, a romantic, then why not try her hand at supporting herself without shackling herself to a man she doesn't love and cannot stand? Or, if she must marry to survive, if she's such a stunner, why didn't she hold out and marry someone she did like? And why not leave on her own if she's so unhappy? Why does she have to pinball from man to man, running for help, playing the damsel card? Save yourself, don't go crying to other men in your bastard husband's family to save you.

But, like Kikidee said, Irene takes no responsibility for her part. If you're going to enter into an old-fashioned marriage of convenience for money, don't you sort of owe that person you're marrying the courtesy not to make his life miserable? To try to make it work? Look at what Winifred had to put up from Dartie. Soames, pre-rape, did not rise to the level of cruelty of Dartie. His actions do seem to stem from a genuine love for her, and consternation that she couldn't return the love, given all he had given to her.

Soames lost a bit of sympathy with me at Fleur's birth. You can almost see the wheels of his mind turning, hoping Annette would die, rather than be trapped in another childless marriage.

It's a shame Soames could never find someone who loved him, or would not treat him like dirt/cheat on him. For someone who is such a snob, I'm surprised Soames chose to marry financially "beneath" him both times. Did he think that he had nothing to offer but his money, and that women of his own class wouldn't be impressed?

Wow, Jenn, you're right! I'd completely forgotten that.

BTW, has anybody else here seen That Forsyte Woman, an MGM movie from the 1940s with Greer Garson as Irene? It covers the story up to the point where Philip dies and Irene walks out on Soames, with a postscript to let the viewer know that she eventually marries Young Jolyon. Even though Garson was about fifteen years too old to play Irene, she still did a much better job than Gina McKee (although not as good as Nyree Dawn Porter in the original BBC series). She also looked lovely in the way Irene is supposed to look; a rich, full-figured Victorian type of beauty. OTOH, Errol Flynn was spectacularly miscast as Soames.

Interestingly, in both TV series her name is pronounced "Eye-Ree-Nee" (French), but in the Garson movie, it's pronounced "Eye-Reen" (Irish).

Bwah. Errol Flynn as Soames is just about the funniest thing I've heard all week.



I do think you're right with that last assumption and that Soames felt awfully bland next to the rest of the clan so he did feel his wealth was the only thing he could offer a woman. As far as I remember Soames' second wife did love him or was at least fond of him when she married him. My impression was that she cheated on him because she didn't really have any place in that marriage after she gave him Fleur who he doted on.

Going strictly by the miniseries, it's mentioned a couple of times that Annette doesn't love Soames. The first, she's talking to June (or some young woman -- I've forgoten already. It doesn't make sense that she'd be talking to June, so hmm) and says she doesn't love Soames, but there are things he has to offer, and there's more to marriage than love (sort of a traditional, more mercenary view). And then when Soames tells the doctor to save the child, not Annette, he explains it that she only married Soames for children, that she doesn't love him, and if she cannot have children, she wouldn't want to live.

But Annette does by and large treat Soames better, and seems to understand the "bargain" they struck when they married. I just think it's odd that Soames was never able to find a nice woman of "his" class who could respect him and maybe have a bit of affection for him. Surely some woman would like his traditionalism.

I was pretty disgusted by Soames when he chose the baby over Annette, regardless of his rationale to the doctor. I was afraid he'd be rotten to his daughter and Annette, given how much he and his father were hoping for a son. But I did soften when he held Fleur and broke down. It was a surprisingly tender reaction from Soames.

Oh, yes, even in the book it was love at first sight for Soames with Fleur. He even names her that, in spite of his distrust of 'French'-ness, when Annette refers to 'ma petite Fleur'. It just seems the perfect name for her.

In the books, as well as both miniseries, I think they make it clear that Annette does not love Soames, but appreciates what he offers her and is pragmatic in a way that she doesn't think English women are. Their marriage is not a complete failure, and by the end of the second trilogy it's clear that there's a kind of comfortable rhythm between them. She certainly cares more for him than Irene ever did and is careful not to embarrass him. But I do think she recognizes early on that she can't hold a candle to 'ma petite Fleur'...

There's a great moment in the first version of the mini-series when, after they've covered over an awkward patch in the marriage, she announces that she's going to visit her mother, now retired in France. As she leaves she says, "What great luck that you have never loved me, Soames..."

It's true, he didn't love her. But he was proud of her attractiveness and fashionable style, and when young she amused him and charmed him a great deal, and she did give him Fleur. So there was some regard there.

I always really enjoyed the character of Prosper Profund (that was his name right?) Even though he behaves like a shit, he's funny. He's just looking to have fun.

I was always annoyed by Prosper Profund. He just seemed like an obnoxious jackass. It seemed a little cheap that he got dangerously in the mix with the entire family. He is not unlike Irene. I just hated how he kept popping up all willy nilly.

I never understood why Winifred was so taken with Prosper, but then, she was taken with Monty Dartie at one time, so evidently her judgment was not always what it might have been, lol.

I remember reading, near the end of one of the books, a scene in which Soames, musing on things, remembers that Prosper often says 'Je m'en fiche'. No translation is given, so I went and looked it up and discovered that, literally, it means 'I card myself'. Since I don't think the Belgian checks his own id in bars, I imagine it has a less literal meaning...

I think the big difference between Winifred/Dartie and Soames/Irene is that the Winifred/Dartie marriage was truly a love match, while Soames/Irene was a marriage of convenience with obsessive love on one side and disgust on the other. I'll admit that Gina McKee was lacking at certain points when it came to her performance as Irene (I thought she was a little to wan and passive), but the one thing I thought she did a superb job performing is how completely and totally Soames creeped Irene out. Watching the scenes of their marriage was like a nightmare for me - I kept thinking of being trapped in a room with that creepy guy you had one blind date with, how uncomfortable and weird it is. Soames turned Irene's stomach, for whatever reason, and I don't think that's necessarily a moral failing or a character flaw - sometimes people just rub you the wrong way.

I was always sympathetic to Irene in that respect. I could even understand why she entered the marriage; I think Irene was supposed to be significantly younger than Gina McKee looked at the beginning of the miniseries, and considering she'd just lost her father, and her step-mother had turned her out, I could see her talking herself into the marriage, convincing herself that it would be all right. It was a mistake, but I can forgive her for that more easily than I could Soames for his actions later. Not that I think Irene was perfect! The thing that really bothered me about her was her actions with regard to June - her actions with regard to Soames, however, I could deal with, especially after the rape. I think that's why I was put off by the ending of the second miniseries. Even though (from my understanding), it reflected the author's changing perception of Soames from initially the villain of the story to by the end, something like the hero, it didn't quite work for me. If I recall correctly (it's been a while since I saw it), the last scene in the miniseries is Soames getting something like absolution or forgiveness from Irene via a handshake, and - well, I don't know. It just rubbed me the wrong way, ending the miniseries on the guy who raped his wife finally getting something he's always wanted.

I'm being overly blunt, probably. I think Damian Lewis is amazing as Soames, and that the movie did show him in an admirably complicated light. All of the Forsytes were pretty messed up, actually, except for maybe June and Young Jolyon's second daughter. And I really liked Winifred. Soames, however compelling I thought he was to watch, was never the side I was rooting for in the Soames/Irene battle.

Oh, one more thing! This:



is probably the funniest sentence I've read this week.

I didn't think the ending of the second series was saying that Soames was getting what he always wanted. What he always wanted was her love. He was never going to get that. I think the ending was just trying to show that everyone was old and trying to put demons to rest. I liked that scene because those two caused so many problems for each other and virtually everyone else in the family. I thought the handshake was just Irene recognizing that Soames had finally learned not to be a rapacious bastard. They both finally got some much needed closure on the whole sordid mess that was their marriage. In the end, they both made terrible mistakes that would leave Dr. Phil frothing at the mouth.

Word to Amelie06's post.

That handshake is one of the very saddest things I've seen on television. That frantic movement Soames makes as he takes off his glove before touching her, so he can have skin-on-skin contact, made me writhe with embarrassment for him. And the spring in his step as he walks away from that house, finally having touched Irene's hand in a mutually-consented-to gesture, as though touching her hand were (was?) the happiest moment in his life -- God, that killed me! I remember lying on the couch, unable to move even to wipe the tears off my cheeks, so weighted down by grief was I. (The fact that Soames' character is scarily like my father's did me no good at all.)

Damian Lewis was glorious in that role.