cjl
Mar 10, 2006 @ 3:23 pm
Simultaneously one of the most repulsive and most fascinating characters in any TV series. As far as I'm concerned, Wayne Pygram stole a good chunk of at least two seasons right out from under the regulars. Discuss Scorpy and his doppelganger here.
sueli769
Mar 10, 2006 @ 3:53 pm
Will this include margarita shooters and a side of Braca?
MikeyMo
Mar 10, 2006 @ 4:30 pm
ITA, cjl. I loved all the characters. John and Aeryn especially were top-notch. But Scorpy made the series what it was. The level of insanity was building anyway before his entrance, but he truly kicked it into high gear.
SpacePPoliceman
Mar 10, 2006 @ 4:44 pm
Come now, come now. Don't Harvey and Scorpy deserve seperate threads?
SunlessNick
Mar 10, 2006 @ 10:24 pm
But Scorpy made the series what it was. The level of insanity was building anyway before his entrance, but he truly kicked it into high gear.
Few depictions of sociopathy have been as chilling - the time he bought a lot of ten thousand slaves because he wanted one of them, and just spaced the rest, not bothering to think of anything else to do with them. Equally, few other villains have done as much damage as he did.
Also I liked how the producers never mitigated his level of evil in order to make the Scarrans seem worse, or the idea of an alliance with him against them seem more palatable - they trusted the Scarrans to be that bad.
And finally (for this post), hybrids between two species are one of my biggest SF bugbears; I hate hate hate them. Scorpius is one of the few that work for me - the product of a complex experiment, and a huge physical mess requiring cybernetic implants just to keep running.
sueli769
Mar 10, 2006 @ 10:55 pm
And finally (for this post), hybrids between two species are one of my biggest SF bugbears; I hate hate hate them. Scorpius is one of the few that work for me - the product of a complex experiment, and a huge physical mess requiring cybernetic implants just to keep running.
Not to mention the psychological ramifications.
Firecracker1
Mar 10, 2006 @ 11:18 pm
Gotta take issue with Scorpius causing huge amounts of damage.
I do agree that he might have spaced the Banik slaves - he certainly got blamed for it - but they weren't his - they were Natira's. He might have done it to spite her (and Scorpy does have that weird belief that the kindest thing he can do for another being is give them a painless death - The Neural Clone said that to Natira: Oh, my lovely. How fortunate you are. Your death will be painless.) but it isn't really something he is going to expend any real effort on. His focus at that point is Crichton. However - he might have done it.
10s of 1000s of Baniks slaves.
But other than that... Scorpy's horrific actions are pretty small beans.
He interrogated Stark for two cycles (bad)
He interrogated Crichton for a couple of days (bad)
He slaved Grunchlk to his mind and made him bite off his finger (very bad)
He implanted a neural clone in Crichton's mind that made our hero crazy. (very very bad)
Scorpy via the neural clone killed Aeryn (VERY VERY BAD)
He jump started the war with the Scarrens in PK Wars. (Kinda inevitable so IMO it doesn't count.)
In comparison Crichton destroyed an entire Gammak Base full of techs like Gilina and Bix. (very bad)
He destroyed a Command Carrier full of tech like Gilina and Bix, friends of Aeryn's, like Henta and Crais' love interest, Lt. Larell, not to mention a whole buncha children. (very bad)
He destroyed an entire timeline where a group of nurses and at least one child were slaughtered (...Different Destinations - not really his fault - so I give him a pass on that one)
Crichton also destroyed Katratzi which was full of Kalish technicians, many of whom were trying to resist their Scarran oppressors. (very bad)
Crichton also destroyed an entire planet and lot of PK Warships and a bunch of Scarran Warships. Yes, I know - the violent path to peace - Scorpy's justification. But Scorpy didn't do it. Crichton did. (very very bad)
In terms of body count, I think Crichton's is much higher than Scorpy's.
SunlessNick
Mar 11, 2006 @ 12:56 am
Gotta take issue with Scorpius causing huge amounts of damage.
I meant damage to the protagonists.
SpacePPoliceman
Mar 11, 2006 @ 1:42 am
In terms of body count, I think Crichton's is much higher than Scorpy's.
Difference being intent and effect. Everything Crichton does deeply, deeply concerns him. He actually feels remorse, quite a bit of it.
Scorpius never does. He's absolutely remorseless. In the end, I'd rather have someone who is deeply concerned about doing bad things, than someone who doesn't give a shit.
Imagine if Crichton's weren't in situations where someone was trying to pry his brain to pieces. Would he have still done those things? No. Scorpius isn't threatened directly until s4, and he still was a nasty guy.
Firecracker1
Mar 11, 2006 @ 6:10 pm
Scorpius never does. He's absolutely remorseless. In the end, I'd rather have someone who is deeply concerned about doing bad things, than someone who doesn't give a shit.
I am not a big fan of Scorpy, he is not my hero, nor my point of view character. In addition I detest his 'ends justify the means' approach. But he always gave a ... shit ... as you put it.
He was all about saving the PKs from the Scarrans. Always. He was never about revenge and he wasn't about pain either (except for the ummmmmm interesting moments with Sikozu and Natira).
His overriding motivation for everything he did was to stop the Scarrans from destroying the Peacekeepers. Plus Scorpy hated what the Scarrans did to his mother - not to mention that he made a point of saving the waitress (the Moya symbol) in "I Yench, You Yench".
Scorpy's methods are not ones I like - but he plans everything meticulously - with the least loss of Peacekeeper life that he can. Unlike Crichton who is always relying on "A fantastic Plan B!"
SpacePPoliceman
Mar 11, 2006 @ 6:47 pm
His overriding motivation for everything he did was to stop the Scarrans from destroying the Peacekeepers.
And Crichton's overriding motivation was to survive. But when Crichton does something awful to reach that goal, he feels awful. When Scorpius does something awful to reach his goal, he doesn't.
Scorpy's methods are not ones I like - but he plans everything meticulously - with the least loss of Peacekeeper life that he can.
He seemed pretty eager to get them liquified in wormholes.
Betsyb
Mar 11, 2006 @ 9:15 pm
But other than that... Scorpy's horrific actions are pretty small beans.
Except that his dream of dreams is mass genocide. Not just the Scarrens but anyone that is tied up with them. Like the Kalish and Charrids who will be in the way.
He was all about saving the PKs from the Scarrans. Always. He was never about revenge and he wasn't about pain either (except for the ummmmmm interesting moments with Sikozu and Natira).
A direct quote from Scorpy in Incubator
"SCORPIUS: You think I want wormholes to betray Peacekeepers, and to conquer the universe myself? I don't want power. I want revenge. "Scorpy went to the PK's because he wanted to kill the Scarrens not because he wanted to help them. The PK's were a means to an end not the end in and of itself. He was perfectly happy to abandon them when they no longer suited his goal. He told Braca, who he was still courting, that he was concerned about the peacekeepers. But what was presented to us in Incubator told a differant story. I think its pretty clear that Scorpy wants revenge for what was done to him and his mother. The most telling line is when Scorpy tells John he could live with wanting a revenge he can never carry out as his punishment. That echoes what John says in Season 4 about Scopry not getting him. That isn't John idea of complete hell he will spend more time hating himself. That is SCORPY's idea of hell. His whole life is driven by the concept of revenge. If he couldn't achieve that goal he would be beside himself. I think the original idea for Nerve/THM that Scorpy was going to tell John a story about how "patient" he was. And how he got revenge on the race that created and tortured him is telling. Obviously they decided to show us that story rather than have it be in the past. But it says a lot about how the writters saw him. I think over the years he began to be concerned for the welfare of the people who took him in. And I think in general he wants them to be safe and victorious. But his original reason was revenge and that is what keeps him going.
He uses those who will help him achieve this and then discards them. Plans to kill Natira once she has outlived her usefulness. He tries to kill the diagnosin who created his coolant system. He does kill Katoya who tried to train him not to need it. He only leaves John alive in DMD is because he thinks that will cause him more pain. He would just as happily discard the PK's once they were of no use.
BigBeagle
Mar 11, 2006 @ 9:40 pm
Among the many wonderful questions that we can only wonder about, now that the show is over, is what happened to Scorpius post PKW. I mean, what's the poor schlup to do? I don't see a big future for him in Peacekeeper Command, his most hated enemy is at peace with the PKs and Crichton and the wormhole weapon are now beyond his grasp.
I picture him sitting in the corner of some bar on a Commerce Planet, getting drunk on the local rotgut, muttering to himself all day long about his sorry lot in life. Either that, or he's become Supreme Ruler on some planet. With Scorpy, there's no in between.
ETA: sueli769, good catch ... I had forgotten about that particular career path for Scorpius.
sueli769
Mar 12, 2006 @ 1:46 am
I picture him sitting in the corner of some bar on a Commerce Planet, getting drunk on the local rotgut, muttering to himself all day long about his sorry lot in life.
...Perhaps as a drummer of a lounge band.
SpacePPoliceman
Mar 12, 2006 @ 6:17 pm
Among the many wonderful questions that we can only wonder about, now that the show is over, is what happened to Scorpius post PKW.
The Ceasar route. And not the good parts--he doesn't get to become dictator, or anything. I think the remnnants of High Command rip him to pieces. Old ground, but I have to say it--
et tu, Braca?
Betsyb
Mar 12, 2006 @ 6:33 pm
Among the many wonderful questions that we can only wonder about, now that the show is over, is what happened to Scorpius post PKW.
Nice little place in Palm Beach. Golf. Poker once a week. Nice little S&M set up in the basement to call his own. You know... the life of any retiree.
Firecracker1
Mar 13, 2006 @ 3:41 pm
Scorpy? Retire? Does not compute.
Actually I am pretty sure that he is the 'gatekeeper' of the treaty between the Scarrans and PKs. Note his position at the treaty signing? And his barely contained glee at the event? Grayza caught a glimpse of him and looked away quickly if you remember (another instance of Farscape showing the story - not telling it).
I think Scorpy has the power to enforce the peace between the PK and the Scarrans - which is what he always wanted.
hakirby
Mar 13, 2006 @ 8:29 pm
Yeah, but he'll be gatekeeping with margharita shooters and naked Sebecean dancing girls.
cutecouple
Mar 16, 2006 @ 11:47 pm
Watching Ben play Scorpius in Infinite Possibilities, I'm struck at how thin Wayne Pygram is, because Ben really fills it out.
SpacePPoliceman
Mar 17, 2006 @ 3:17 pm
Watching Ben play Scorpius in Infinite Possibilities, I'm struck at how thin Wayne Pygram is, because Ben really fills it out.
They both seem pretty chicken-legged, Pygram more-so.
Pygram impresses me with the distinctive physicality he gave Scorpy, particularly his distinctive walk. In the montage at the end of Revenge of the Sith, there's a quick shot of a guy made up to look like Peter Cushing. He walks off camera, swinging one arm, the other held behind his back, and his head seems to linger a little bit, as though he could get the last word in, he just doesn't feel like it. Seriously, it's a blink-and-you-miss-it moment, but that was all I needed to think "Wait just one goddam minute!" Later, when I went with a fellow Scape Fiend, and asked if he recognized Tarkin's walk. He was also onto it instantly.
Point being, Pygram rules, and Scorpius is the best bad guy ever.
merdiolu
Apr 15, 2006 @ 2:32 am
Scorpius. He is one of the best villains ever written for a Tv show. Complicated , calculating , confident , ruthless but sympatic sometimes. And Wayne Pygram played this character nearly perfectly with amusing Harvey.
beebs
Apr 15, 2006 @ 11:55 am
Scorpi is definitely one of the best bad guys ever. I really sat up and started to watch Farscape when they brought him in. Watching season one again recently made me realise it even more. I was actually slightly unnerved when he made his entrance. He's an evil scary bastard and even after all this time seeing him worried me.
Kanel
Apr 15, 2006 @ 3:47 pm
I didn't find Scorpius scary at first. Even with The Chair, he wasn't worse than anyone else who was after the Moya crew, and not nearly as freaky as Durka. It wasn't until I got to know him and realised the lengths to which he'd go, the depths to which he'd sink [/channelling Little Shop of Horror] that he started to squick me out.
I love that he has levels. That's rare in a TV bad guy. And even through the mini I was never completely sure of which side he was on, which was nice and unnerving.
kayaj2k
Apr 15, 2006 @ 6:02 pm
I can't remember my first impression of Scorpy, but I definitely remember my disgust at one of his final scenes in PKW, turning his back and walking away as Aeryn screamed for help with an unconscious and possibly dead John. I was actually shocked that he'd react that way. How stupid is that? It's not like they were buddies. And John had just taunted him pretty viciously, with a cherry on top. Plus Scorpy had gotten what he wanted, so, why bother, right? It reminds me of that little piece of Psych 101 trivia about alligators not making very good pets because no matter how long you have them, they simply lack the part of the brain wherein resides loyalty.
Harvey, on the other hand, I loved from the start. "I long for the dumpster."
uptoolate1966
Jun 8, 2006 @ 12:33 am
My reactions to Scorpius were kind of twisted up because I'd just been seeing the series out of the corner of my eye while my husband watched it. I saw more of Harvey than of Scorpius at first and I almost kind of liked him. He was funny and he wanted to keep Crichton safe. So when I finally watched from the beginning and Scorpius came in all mean and evil, it really startled me. Hey, that's not how I thought he was!
Which is just to say that I agree with SpacePPoliceman; Harvey and Scorpius deserve separate threads. They really are very different characters.
AzureOwl
Jun 8, 2006 @ 8:10 am
He destroyed a Command Carrier full of tech like Gilina and Bix, friends of Aeryn's, like Henta and Crais' love interest, Lt. Larell, not to mention a whole buncha children. (very bad)
No he didn’t. Remember that the Command Carrier was destroyed the way it was precisely to give everybody on board time to evacuate.
Crichton also destroyed Katratzi which was full of Kalish technicians, many of whom were trying to resist their Scarran oppressors. (very bad)
The damage done to Katratzi wasn’t that bad. Emperor Stalik and Minister Akhna were walking about afterwards in an area of the base that was directly affected. Remember the bomb detonated in a chamber the was incredibly deep within the moon, and the rest of the blast was channeled thru the tunnels.
As far as Scorpius's capacity for attrocities
As far as Scorpius's capacity for atrocities go, we must remember that he wasn’t often in a situation were they would be practical or useful. But what made him evil was the fact that he was more than willing to use them without hesitation. Remember when he figured out Earth’s location to use Crichton’s homeworld as leverage against him. Is there anybody here do doesn’t believe that Scorpius would have bombed Earth to a molten slag if he had had the opportunity and John refused to cooperate?
Firecracker1
Jun 8, 2006 @ 7:38 pm
No he didn’t. Remember that the Command Carrier was destroyed the way it was precisely to give everybody on board time to evacuate.
Not quite.
Henta didn't make it off the command carrier alive and all the technicians who were in the maintenance bay with Talyn did not make it off the command carrier alive. Remember there were over 50,000 Peacekeepers on the command carrier and while John did make the effort so that most of them would have a chance (key word = chance) to evacuate - not all of them did.
Just cause they were red shirts and didn't have any names does not negate the lethality of Crichton's actions.
Crichton also destroyed Katratzi which was full of Kalish technicians, many of whom were trying to resist their Scarran oppressors. (very bad)
The damage done to Katratzi wasn’t that bad. Emperor Stalik and Minister Akhna were walking about afterwards in an area of the base that was directly affected. Remember the bomb detonated in a chamber the was incredibly deep within the moon, and the rest of the blast was channeled thru the tunnels.
John Crichton detonated a nuclear bomb in the middle of a Peace Conference. And by his actions he was responsible for the deaths of an unknown number of individuals - many of them Kalish technicians. Zhaan asked Crichton in John Quixote: "Have you wasted my death and death of so many others?" And Crichton did not know the answer. Indescriminate destruction.
Personally I don't like the Scarrans. I don't like Grayza or the Peacekeepers.
But detonating a nuclear bomb in the middle of a Peace Conference is not generally held to be a positive negotiation tactic.
I am not comfortable with the mantra: The end justifies the means - and that is exactly what Crichton did.
As far as Scorpius's capacity for atrocities go, we must remember that he wasn’t often in a situation were they would be practical or useful. But what made him evil was the fact that he was more than willing to use them without hesitation. Remember when he figured out Earth’s location to use Crichton’s homeworld as leverage against him. Is there anybody here do doesn’t believe that Scorpius would have bombed Earth to a molten slag if he had had the opportunity and John refused to cooperate?
Not a fan of Scorpy. As I have said - in reference to John Crichton - I do not like the mantra "the end justifies the means" and if anyone embodies that sentiment it is Scorpy - with John Crichton a close second.
John Crichton has done horrific things since he arrived in the Unchartered Territories. He has cut a noticible swath through the universe - destroying pretty much everything that got in his way.
Scorpy - on the other hand - has not.
What has Scorpy done that was evil and destructive?
Well he implanted a neural clone in Crichtons head which drove Crichton mad in an effort to get the knowledge that would save the Peackeeper Universe.
Ooooo! Isn't that exactly what Crichton did in PK Wars to Stark? Forced Stark against his will to absorb the Eidelon knowledge that would save the universe? Brothers under the skin.What else has Scorpy done? Made Grunschlk bite off his own finger. Nasty. (and squicky)
Possibly responsible for the deaths of the Banik Slaves in Liars, Guns and Money.
Made threats at earth in an effort to get Crichton to co-operate in the sharing of knowledge that would save the PK Universe.
Threats. Very bad. Just about equal to destroying a Gammak base full of technicians and scientists like Gilina and Bixx, and destroying a Shadow Depository full of shady characters, destroying a Command Carrier full of 50,000 people including a healthy compliment of children, and destroying Katratzi in the middle of a Peace Conference.
If you recall - in the final eventuality, what Scorpy wanted was a show of force to make the Scarrens back off -
and that is exactly what Crichton did.
Scorpy was right all along. Or at least John Crichton thought so. I guess - The end does justify the means.
A lesson John Crichton has taken to heart. And one that Scorpy already knew.
garymarcella
Jun 8, 2006 @ 10:45 pm
As far as both the carrier and Katratzi the people basically declared war on John and his freinds and John destroyed all those things only after they gave him no choice. The Shadow depository was destroyed by Aeryn Sun only after they declared war on the love of her life. Lets face it Aeryn and John are two sides of the same coin that was minted in two places and joined together by fate. IMHO Scorpius just orders people and beings killed just because they are inconvenient for him. IMHO
merdiolu
Jun 9, 2006 @ 7:43 am
It seemed to me that at the end of PKW , Scorpius understood how wrong some of his aims were. When he saw what wormhole weapon truly is he said "This is madness" , Crichton ( who was trying to prevent this situation from start ) made "I said you so" comment. Besides Cryistirium plant was destroyed so he took his revenge on Scarrans ( they are no more threat for Peacekeepers ) So he was present during peace treaty signing. He was victorius ( smirk he wore on his face while looking both Grayza and Emperor Starleek , was great )
That is strange but as a villain he was brutally honest , kept his promises and sometimes he was even merciful ( he adopted Calcium Kid at S1 )
I hope we see a spin off series about him. He was a very good developed character.
thisplumistooripe
Jun 9, 2006 @ 3:31 pm
I love all this discussion of Scorpius and John's morals--I think one of the coolest things about this show was the way their relationship developed. Scorpius hurt John, for his own ends, and in order to get back at him, or to fix what he'd broken, John ended up behaving more and more like Scorpius. It's perfectly summed up in this exchange from "We're So Screwed" (don't remember which part):
Crichton: You used me.
Scorpius: We use each other.
Crichton: You're better at it.
Scorpius: You're learning.
He has this...*pride* in John that is just fascinating, given how much they hate each other.
AzureOwl
Jun 9, 2006 @ 4:37 pm
But detonating a nuclear bomb in the middle of a Peace Conference is not generally held to be a positive negotiation tactic.
To be fair, by the time John decided to detonate the bomb, the conference was already ruined. Detonating or not the bomb was irrelevant. The Conference was wrecked from the moment he set foot on Katratzi, as it was the wormhole knowledge within him, rather than any threat of violence, that truly derailed the process.
One important difference between John and Scorpius is that Crichton knew detonating the bomb was bad almost from the moment he detonated it, and was tormented by guilt. On the other hand Scorpius wouldn’t have given it second thought if he believed that it would help him achieve his ends. I can sympathize more with someone who does an evil thing out of desperation than I can with someone that does it out of cold calculation and without guilt.
Another point is that, as far as Crichton knew at the time, the Scarrans were about to gain wormhole technology from Scorpius. Aeryn was rescued in the space station, they went to Katratzi to rescue Scorpius. So from Crichton’s perspective the options were:
a. Disrupting the Conference and killing the very slim chance of peace between the Peacekeepers and the Scarrans, which
might result in the deaths of billions, or in keeping the status quo as it was.
b. Letting the Scarrans gain wormhole weapons, which
would certainly result in the deaths of billions. As they would without a doubt launched an invasion and used wormhole weapons without hesitation.
Both options were bad, and he chose the lesser of two evils.
destroying a Command Carrier full of 50,000 people including a healthy compliment of children,
All of which escaped the implosion. Again, the whole point of the plan was destroying the Command Carrier in such a way that it took half an arn for it to implode, allowing the people inside time to evacuate. As Noranti’s presence later on confirms, even the prisoners in the holding cells of the ship were able to get out. I’m not denying that there were fatalities, but I’d be surprised if the reached a 100, out of the 50,000+ people inside the Command Carrier. One would imagine that if there was one procedure that people who lived their entire lives in a warship would be very well acquainted with, it would be evacuation procedures in the case of the imminent destruction of the ship.
Plumberduck
Jun 14, 2006 @ 3:11 am
I'm in the same boat as thisplumistooripe, I love watching the parallels between John and Scorpius develop. Farscape is a show that loves to play with people merging (the body swapping in "Out of Their Minds," the hybrid crew in "Unrealized Reality," among other examples), and nowhere is that clearer than in the bond between John and Scorpy.
There's the overt stuff, of course, like Browder in the Scorpius suit. And there's Harvey, who always seemed to me to be an approximation of what you'd get if you tried to build Scorpius' personality out of the mountains of trivia and crap that lives in Chricton's head.
But there's also all those moments of pairings or reversals. The Chricton neural clone in Scorpius' head, their twin obsession with wormholes, the bracelets that connect their lives together. John and Scorpius were both scientists, once.
One of the prevailing questions of Farscape, especially in the later seasons, is "How far will a man go from his original principles to do what's right?" Any moment when Chricton and Scorpius - the noble explorer and Mr. "The Ends Justify The Means" - work as a team is a chilling look at how far Chricton has moved away from his old principles. Especially when you consider that they're a pretty good team.
And then there's my all-time favorite Chricton and Scorpius moment, in PKW. Chricton in a chair that's hooked up to his brain, again, with Scorpius standing there eagerly awaiting the results, again. But this time, John's the one in power, and Scorpius is the one begging. And Chricton shows his tormentor/twin where "The Ends Justifies the Means" really ends. And Scorpy gets it. For once, it's not Scorpius drawing John a little deeper into the madness, it's John pulling Scorpius out.
To respectfully disagree with someone upthread, I don't think Chricton meant the firing of the wormhole weapon to be a showing of strength to end the war. I think he did it to force everyone involved to see how all-encompassing the destruction the different parties sought really was. It's John's redemption and the triumph of his ideals over Scorpius'.
RepairmanBob
Jun 17, 2006 @ 6:47 pm
I find the John vs. Scorpius moral argument interesting, but I have to disagree with Firecracker1 position. I always thought that season one John was ultimately trying (failing, but trying) to operate by the philosophy of "Do Not Harm." As time went on, and the situations John and the crew of Moya faced got worse, they changed to "Do As Little Harm as Possible."
And by season four? "Try Not to Fuck Up Too Horribly."
All of John's greatest hits were attempts to stop Truly Bad Things. He had to stop the Scarrans, Scorpy, and anyone else from getting and using wormhole technology, for fear of the damage they would cause. If left to his own devices, John would have probably been happy to explore, look at wormholes and make little Crichton-Suns with Aeryn. But time and time again, circumstances prevented that.
Scorpius is all about achieving his goals, no matter the cost. If he has a consience, regrets, or anything that faintly resenbles guilt, we do not get to see it. He is is an interesting character, but a bastard through and through.
John tries to do the right thing. Unfortunately, his plans usually fail and he is forced to decide between several bad choices, trying to pick the "least bad" among them. But if John cannot make the right decision, he tried to make the necessary one. And he then suffers for it.
lpl
Jun 18, 2006 @ 12:51 pm
RepairmanBob, I think you could take some of your statements and apply them (almost) directly to John, and vice versa:
All of Scorpy's greatest hits were attempts to stop Truly Bad Things. He had to stop the Scarrans, ... , for fear of the damage they would cause. If left to his own devices, Scorpy would have probably been happy to explore, look at wormholes and ... . But time and time again, circumstances prevented that.
John is all about achieving his goals, no matter the cost. ... He is is an interesting character, but a bastard through and through.
Scorpius tries to do the right thing. Unfortunately, his plans usually fail and he is forced to decide between several bad choices, trying to pick the "least bad" among them. But if Scorpius cannot make the right decision, he tried to make the necessary one. ...
(Certain comments elided because they have seemingly have no corresponding action between the two.)
I think your statement about John having regrets and, by implication, Scorpius not having them may be the biggest difference between the two. I think that Scorpius does have a conscience within the context of his culture - he saves M'Lee in Bone To Be Wild; he shows John the clone why he's doing what he's doing in Incubator; he attempts to keep John and the Moyans from Commandant Grayza in Into the Lion's Den. He just doesn't spend a lot of time worrying about what doesn't work and moves quickly to the next thing to try. In fact, Scorpius remains very focused on trying to accomplish his goals - in Liars, Guns, and Money, he walks past a burning man. He could stop and help him, but Scorpy is the general and that job is better served by someone else while Scorpius remains focused on the task at hand - getting the wormhole tech.
Scorpius' biggest problem is that in order to accomplish what he wants to do, ie, save the Sebacean race, he thinks he needs what's in John's head. And, accordingly, his plan is to get that knowledge and use it against the Scarrens. That plan ain't workin' so well during the four seasons of the show... John's biggest problem is, of course, keeping that knowledge in his head and keeping his head on his shoulders - metaphorically speaking... Well, actually, physically, too, as per Look At The Princess!
Should I love John because he has regrets? Because he suffers? Should I dislike Scorpius because he doesn't? John's goals are personal; Scorpius' are much more far-ranging. Are they any less valid?
These writers and actors are amazing. In the hands of lesser talent, this could have been way too much of a caricature on either part. Instead, I ache for John and I dislike Scorpius. But I can see how they are two sides of the same coin. Someone either upthread or in another thread commented about John's transformation into Scorpy/Crichton during Die, Me Dichotomy - you can see here that they
are the same coin.
SpacePPoliceman
Jun 18, 2006 @ 1:52 pm
I think that Scorpius does have a conscience within the context of his culture - he saves M'Lee in Bone To Be Wild; he shows John the clone why he's doing what he's doing in Incubator; he attempts to keep John and the Moyans from Commandant Grayza in Into the Lion's Den.
None of these things were done for any sort of moral reasons. M'Lee had spent quite a bit of time with Crichton and crew, and even if she couldn't tell him where they were, she could tell Scorp a lot about how they work. He showed the John Clone is life story in the hope that Clone John might "listen to reason" and see Scarrens as the greater threat. And he kept the Moya crew from Grayza because if she kept them, there's no way John would help him, and he really needed John's help.
Scorpy has things he believes in--that Scarrens are raw evil, and need to die. But morality, conscience, right/wrong are not things he ever considers.
In a way, by the end of the show, its as though he considers himself and Crichton to be the only "real" people in the galaxy, in that only himself and Crichton are treated with any sort of regard. Everyone else is just a tool he can use, or throw away as he sees fit.
kayaj2k
Jun 18, 2006 @ 2:19 pm
In a way, by the end of the show, its as though he considers himself and Crichton to be the only "real" people in the galaxy, in that only himself and Crichton are treated with any sort of regard. Everyone else is just a tool he can use, or throw away as he sees fit.
Except, consider the last scene Scorpy has with John in PKW. Regard?
SpacePPoliceman
Jun 18, 2006 @ 10:28 pm
Except, consider the last scene Scorpy has with John in PKW. Regard?
In the sense that Scorp is aware he can't totally steamroll John--there's always a chance John could get the upper hand, because he's done it before. Have we ever seen Scorpy try to reason with anyone he has in his power?
lpl
Jun 20, 2006 @ 11:08 pm
SpacePPoliceman says:
... But morality, conscience, right/wrong are not things he ever considers.
When viewed from the perspective of the Peacekeepers, this is exactly how they see John Crichton. Where was John's morality, conscience and right/wrong when he blew up the Gammak base? How about the Shadow Depository? Or the command carrier?
We see it as trying to protect himself and his friends, because he's been backed into a corner. The Peacekeepers who are trying to save their race? Are they not as well backed into a corner, trying to protect everything they know and love? Peacekeepers may not be allowed to love, but that doesn't seem to stop them! Who knows what their Geneva Convention says they can and can't do in a wartime situation?
I think
Firecracker1 said it quite well in the Season Four thread:
That is the nature of being violent and wanted criminals; which ... is exactly what John Crichton and the gang are.
Not quite sure what you mean by this,
SpacePPoliceman:
In the sense that Scorp is aware he can't totally steamroll John--there's always a chance John could get the upper hand, because he's done it before.
I think
kayaj2k is talking about Scorpy walking away from John while Aeryn is screaming for help. Perhaps you're thinking about another scene that I'm forgetting?
I love these conversations!
kayaj2k
Jun 20, 2006 @ 11:43 pm
Hi, yes, I think we've got our wires crossed SPP. Which scene are you referencing?
SpacePPoliceman
Jun 21, 2006 @ 1:26 am
When viewed from the perspective of the Peacekeepers, this is exactly how they see John Crichton.
But Scorpy isn't a good Peacekeeper. Good PKs follow orders. Good PKs don't have their own agenda. Good PKs don't disobey the orders of the Grand Chancellor. Good PKs don't desert to go chasing Chimerical Wormholes. Scorp doesn't adhere to PK morality either.
The Peacekeepers who are trying to save their race? Are they not as well backed into a corner, trying to protect everything they know and love?
Maybe. Maybe not. John Crichton, armed with a little pluck, little knowledge, and an old man, nearly made peace between Scarrens and the Peacekeepers while he was a prisoner, for god sakes. Suppose the PKs used their resources a tenth as well as John used his, eh?
Who knows what their Geneva Convention says they can and can't do in a wartime situation?
Yes, well, I don't accept that we need to torture the detainees in Guantanamo Bay either.
Hi, yes, I think we've got our wires crossed SPP. Which scene are you referencing?
Not really a scene as much as Scorpy's over-all attitude and behavior. Did Crais ever have the upperhand on Scorp? No. Grayza? Not a chance. The Grand Chancellor? Didn't even bother to lie to him. Staleek, Emperor of the Goddam Scarren Empire? It is to laugh. Scorp played him like a full orchestra. For 35 cycles, no less.
John Crichton is the one Scorpy couldn't torture, trick, or manipulate. Scorp tried, and in the end John turned the tables on him, and kicked him in the nuts (or Command Carrier, as the case may be). Scorpius respects John, and seems to respect John alone. In PKW, he doesn't let the Merrik try his plan, but he lets John attempt his, even though Scorp has the same ammount of faith in both--that is to say, none.
So, that's what I mean by both regard as the only other "real" person, and regard. Of course he won't get blubbery over John's "death"--it's not his style, and John wouldn't exactly appreciate it anyway.
SpacePPoliceman
Jul 11, 2006 @ 11:30 pm
Two posts in a row? Tacky, tacky, tacky. But it's been nearly a month since anyone had anything to say about Scorp, and that's just...
wrong.
Like I said elsewhere, I kept a magnet of Scorpy on my work desk with his version of the Serenity Prayer. You know, to help with the rough times. The Serenity Prayer, used by various 12 Step programs, goes something like this--
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.
Entirely unsuited to Scorpy, so the new version is--
"Grant me the strength to change what I want,
The foresight to work around what I can't,
And the conviction to not care about who is in between."
I find it helps.
HappyPlace
Jul 12, 2006 @ 1:20 am
Ahahahaha!
That's goin' up on my office wall!
booklad
Jul 12, 2006 @ 5:49 am
Shouldn't it be;
"Grant me the strength to change what I...want,
The foresight to work around what I...can't,
And the conviction to not care about who is in be...tween."
(Hee, Strega got him down so well)
starkllr
Jul 12, 2006 @ 7:44 am
I love Scorpy's prayer. I can totally picture him reciting it, too!
I came across this quote somewhere, and I think it also fits as one of Scorpius' core philosophies:
"There is no problem so complex that it cannot be resolved by killing everyone even remotely associated with it."
Lostfolio
Jul 13, 2006 @ 4:48 pm
What's so interesting to me about Scorpy and John is the way in which they indetify with each other so well. They are both, despite their very closenit support systems (PK's and Moya's Crew), very much outsiders with no chance of ever completely breaking through that. I think they come to love each other as much as they hate each other. It is especially interesting with the Scorpster on account of the only thing he's used to caring about is destroying Scarrans. He seems genuinely surprised and a little delighted by his relationship with Cruton.
Also, since Strega's (wonderful) recap, I've been talking like Scorpius all the...time.
miniglik
Jul 14, 2006 @ 2:33 pm
Huh. I just watched the BB and CB commentary on Nerve (from the Starburst Edition), and Browder talks about his first scenes with Scorpius (sitting in the Aurora Chair). Browder says he asked Wayne Pygram if he was "playing with the punctuation." Which, I guess he ... was. So, Strega's definitely got him nailed.
Although, from what I can tell it's not necessarly the last word. Sometimes it's the last... two words.
SpacePPoliceman
Jul 14, 2006 @ 8:53 pm
I think they come to love each other as much as they hate each other.
I don't know about John in that. He was more than happy to leave Scorpy in Jennek's tender care, and he didn't even hesitate. I don't think John felt much more for Scorpy than hate, fear, contempt, and respect for his intelligence and foresight. Not that I can blame him. Scorpy on the other hand...
It is especially interesting with the Scorpster on account of the only thing he's used to caring about is destroying Scarrans. He seems genuinely surprised and a little delighted by his relationship with Cruton.
I think Scorpy was relieved not to be bored, whether he knew that was the reason or not. Everyone else around him just seems so tiresome, he's always several steps ahead. He was only ever one or two steps ahead of Crichton.
Firecracker1
Jul 16, 2006 @ 5:21 pm
Just thought I would mention that there is an absolutely wonderful character review of
Scorpius on this weeks Scapecast.
Excellent.
Hank
Jul 16, 2006 @ 8:14 pm
Excellent.
Am I the only one who heard that in Monty Burns' voice?
miniglik
Jul 19, 2006 @ 5:20 pm
Okay, when, exactly, does Crichton name the neural clone bleed Harvey? I've rewatched every episode (but 2.5-2.8) up to John Quixote, and I seem to have missed it on rewatch. Which is weird because I intended to watch for it, and I still missed it.
Little side note: when I was dating my husband I made him watch Farscape (early season 2 was airing, at the time) on one of our first few dates... and he made me watch one of his favorite movies: Harvey. Heh. Little did I know the two would merge.
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