Selannia
Mar 10, 2006 @ 1:51 pm
Poor John. It's no wonder he went nuts. From the recap:
The past seven months haven't been easy on John: he got sucked through a wormhole while working for (just call it NASA) IASA, accidentally killed an insane military commander's brother, ended up on a living ship with a bunch of jacked-up escaped prisoners, caught 'roid rage, brain-screwed a creepy alien that looked like Debi Mazar, fell a little bit in love with two different Sebacean chicks, joined a cult, got kidnapped by a psychic vampire-slash-clown, got kidnapped by another cult, had more brain-sex -- this time with Zhaan -- and went native on a random planet. He's tired, and he's homesick, and he's just discovered his first gray hair...
That would make anyone a bit loopy.
CRAP! I don't even believe I spelled his name wrong. That's what I get for trying to do this and work at the same time. Crapcrapcrap.
scapebabe
Mar 10, 2006 @ 2:18 pm
Awww, and here I was hoping we'd name this thread Humans Are Superior: John Crichton...
Selannia
Mar 10, 2006 @ 2:38 pm
I just hear the intro in my head. And I got anxious to make another thread and then I messed it up. Thanks to the mod who fixed the spelling.
I'm trying to think of catchy lines for threads about the other characters and the muppets the makeup and the technology (or lack of technobabble) and maybe one about the overall themes in
Farscape.
But, quite frankly, I need a break from all the heavy thoughts I have from the recap. How about a palate cleanser?
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/3416/be...100384204sy.jpg
ChillinTheMost
Mar 10, 2006 @ 3:50 pm
Awww, and here I was hoping we'd name this thread Humans Are Superior: John Crichton...
I like that!
haha. I'm afraid to start any threads because five minutes later I'll think of a better title. I give props to those of you plunging right in.
SpacePPoliceman
Mar 10, 2006 @ 4:45 pm
here I was hoping we'd name this thread Humans Are Superior: John Crichton...
I say "John Crichton: Astronaut, Master of the Universe".
Hee hee! It's so roomy in here!
sueli769
Mar 10, 2006 @ 9:37 pm
One of the little details I love about Crichton, from the AHR recap:
He's got a southern accent that comes and goes, depending on how freaked out he is.
...Or when there is barbeque involved.
mrow
Mar 11, 2006 @ 12:50 am
Something I like about Crichton is that he's this cool mix of Leader and Sidekick. He's always the guy who is coming up with the crazy ass plans, but at the same time he seems perfectly fine with playing second fiddle to other characters. Take Crichton and D'Argo for example, if they were characters in a buddy cop action movie I feel like D'Argo would get top billing and I feel like John would be fine with that. If you look at the other characters as being bread John Crichton is like the peanut butter that makes them taste better.
Unusual Suspect
Mar 11, 2006 @ 4:44 pm
I knew I was hooked on Farscape the moment in the premiere they showed him topless.
Selannia
Mar 12, 2006 @ 1:57 pm
I loved that John was written as a geek. One brilliant geek who totally hit the genetic lottery, but still, geek. The man referenced Buffy, the Vampire Slayer, Python, Simpsons, and, well, you guys know. I liked that he was a scientist and not a military guy. I don't really have a cohesive point to make, beyond the fact the writers really knew their audience. Liked him silly, crazy, jumpsuited or leather panted. Even when I knew he was wrong, I always rooted for him.
HappyPlace
Mar 13, 2006 @ 8:18 am
I was going to say: "Oh John Crichton, how do I love thee? Let me count the ways" but, yeah, that would be the wrong kind of quote for this show. Sooo, I'll just go with I love Mr JC "beyond hope". Not because he is/was perfect, but because he was so passionate and intense about the things he cared about. No half-measures with this guy!
I love that the character was allowed to be cocky, crazy, emotional, teary, in-love-and-not-confused-about-it, intelligent, stupid, caring and destructive. I love that he could be soft-spoken one moment, and screaming like an insane person the next. I loved that he was a good friend and a "beyond hope" lover/husband. I love that he was okay with letting other people, even if it was his woman, lead the way and be the heroes.
My name is HappyPlace, and I love John Crichton!
Hank
Mar 13, 2006 @ 9:38 am
It's funny, but JC was my least favorite part of the show at the beginning. First, I didn't buy this beefcake ex-football player as the brilliant scientist. And second, his goofy demeanor on encountering the Uncharted Territories reminded me of the woebegone pilot of Buck Rogers, which I made the mistake of paying money for back in the 70s. Not quite as druggy as Gil Gerard as Buck, but definitely on something. Fortunately, all the other characters and the rest of the show took my attention from the weak (as I saw him) lead (where the hell did they find this guy?). And before I knew it, I'd fallen under the show's spell and stopped noticing or caring about those perceived (by me) weaknesses.
drgnfille
Mar 17, 2006 @ 2:59 am
Awww! I just saw the "Bug's Life" episode, when Crichton poses as a Peacekeeper. Poor Bennie - his wife's British, he's surrounded by Aussies and he's toting serious lingual undertones as a Southerner, and the accent that comes out can't decide which one to emulate.
This isn't a slam, though - I adore Ben Browder. I'm just finishing up season 1 and he's had some awesome moments - I hear he gets even better as the series progresses. And of course, since I'm shallow, I likes me the looks of him. I just found the accent thing endearing.
I may have to start watching SG-1 as well. :)
Betsyb
Mar 17, 2006 @ 10:21 am
his wife's British, he's surrounded by Aussies and he's toting serious lingual undertones as a Southerner, and the accent that comes out can't decide which one to emulate.
Ben Browder actually does a great english accent. And he can do a decent Aussie. But John Crichton is a bad actor. He thought it would be better to have Crichton be the idiot trying this accent when he is the only one that hears it in the first place. Trying to be the sleek, arrogant captain he *imagines* would be best. And then when he has the bug in him he was trying to be a bug, impersonating the Southern John, impersonating a PK. A geat clue to what the intetnion was when the bug John says "I reckon not." Confusing the accent and dialect.
Firecracker1
Mar 17, 2006 @ 10:23 am
The accent was funny. But I always thought it was Crichton (who is sooooo not an actor) trying to do a James Bond accent.
Later, in "Nerve" he actually responds to Scorpy's introduction with a classic James Bond quote.
Scorpius: I am Scorpius.
John: But of course you are.
Still a bad imitation, but I give Ben props for tieing in a pop culture spy reference into his PK persona.
SpacePPoliceman
Mar 17, 2006 @ 3:06 pm
Poor Bennie - his wife's British, he's surrounded by Aussies and he's toting serious lingual undertones as a Southerner, and the accent that comes out can't decide which one to emulate.
I recall (from one of my ghettonated non-Starburst comentaries) Claudia explaining that her own accent, which came to be PK standard, is a muddling of English and Australian, and this caused a few headaches for guest actors.
I always liked the bug--a smart and effective impersonator, but I liked how agitated and excited it was, and the little ticks Browder gave it, as though Crichton's body didn't quite fit it. I get some of the same ticks when I have a tight collared shirt.
tarpoley
Mar 20, 2006 @ 5:30 pm
I'm so excited to have subforums! I've been avoiding the FS thread because I've been living overseas and I STILL haven't seen the second half of season 4 or the Peacekeeper Wars. But I've been rewatching the first three seasons in anticipation and I'm falling in love with this show all over again. On to John "I have great eyes! And they're BLUE!" Crichton.
I didn't buy this beefcake ex-football player as the brilliant scientist.
I see where you are coming from, but I totally bought it. I've actually
known some people like this (including a former fighter pilot/Ph.D. in aeornautical engineering). They make you wonder how the genetic lottery can be so unfair but at the same time you can't help liking them anyway because they are genuinely nice, interesting people.
And I think that it is a testimony to BB's acting and to the wonderful scripts that JC was such a three-dimensional, whole, real person - right from the start. I don't usually go for the all-American beefcake type myself, but I LURVE BB/JC. So hot. So smart. So weird and goofy. And so so hot. So Hot. Whew. It makes me tempted to watch SG-1. But can't. quite. do. it. Sorry Ben.
drgnfille
Mar 20, 2006 @ 5:54 pm
I don't usually go for the all-American beefcake type myself, but I LURVE BB/JC. So hot. So smart. So weird and goofy.
I hear ya. My taste isn't hunky-chunky either...and yet! It must be the combination of all of those things that does the trick. If he were merely beefcake, it'd be like,
eh.
It makes me tempted to watch SG-1. But can't. quite. do. it. Sorry Ben.
*lol* I tried watching Stargate for the first time last Friday, solely due to BB. It happened to be an episode where Ben walks around in boxer-briefs for a short time. And that was about the only exciting thing that happened all hour. No offense to SG-1 watchers; I guess it's just not my cup o' tea. BB/JJ, however, is! He has a gentle sweetness as Crichton that is just wonderful to watch.
I'm up to Farscape season 2 now, and Crichton has recently traded in his baggy IASA jumpsuit in favor of leather. I take it from various threads that he continues this trend throughout the series? God bless him. But when does that wacky bunny suit come into play??
AnnieF
Mar 20, 2006 @ 6:23 pm
But when does that wacky bunny suit come into play??
You've got a ways to go,
drgnfille. The bunny thing is in the very last episode of season 4. But you've got Crichton in leather now pretty much full time, so yay! :)
HappyPlace
Mar 30, 2006 @ 8:30 am
I've just rewatched one of my favourite Farscape music vids (Psychodrama by HumansRSuperior) and I was reminded of how absolutely awesome Ben was in the Liars, Guns and Money trilogy. The scenes where John is struggling with Scorpius' coolant rod (the shaking hands, the sweating), the absolutely defeatedness when he sits against the wall and all he was left with to stop the torment was to do what the clone was telling him and go to Scorpius. Argh! Makes my heart pound everytime!
Great work. John alternated between cocky, helpless, vulnerable, trying to stay sane, angry... Just... great work.
kayaj2k
Mar 30, 2006 @ 3:09 pm
Do you have a link for that vid please HP? I love those scenes too, so freaking heartbreaking.
HappyPlace
Mar 31, 2006 @ 10:29 am
Argh, I posted a reply earlier but it has failed to show up!
Anyway,
kayaj2k, you can find
Psychodrama on
HumansRSuperior's page on the
Neural Cluster website. That website has quite a few of my all-time favourite John or John/Aeryn vids, so you should browse around.
Enjoy!
kayaj2k
Apr 1, 2006 @ 11:48 pm
Ooooh, very nice, thank you!
I'd forgotten about John's bloody nose. Poor John.
Ben is a marvellous physical actor. Crichton was such a demanding role, and he was absolutely convincing, especially when the character was under stress or worse (which was 98% of the time). That shot of him screaming in the hallway and arching his back trying to will himself to shoot Scorpy is breathtaking.
GrimWeeper
Apr 3, 2006 @ 6:46 pm
My absolute favorite is when he's hollering for Aeryn whenever he's in a jam and he needs his ass saved. I like a man who can aknowledge when he needs a woman's help.
I have to say that I wasn't all that impressed by John Crichton at first, either. I thought the actor playing him was very good, and wondered where on earth they found him. I thought he was merely cute, like in a Ricky Nelson kind of way. Although I noted that the chemistry he had with the leading lady was hot hot hot, I was much more impressed with the rest of the cast, the inventive writing, and the very impressive production values. However, after a few episodes, I realized that HE was the one I was watching constantly, and the others were just set decoration. heh heh.
ChillinTheMost
Apr 7, 2006 @ 4:24 pm
However, after a few episodes, I realized that HE was the one I was watching constantly, and the others were just set decoration. heh heh.
There are others? I keep hearing people mention this. I'm going to have to watch to see if I can see others.
later...
Nope. Just John Crichton.
kayaj2k
May 16, 2006 @ 7:23 pm
There's a little quiz
here where you can test your Crichton knowledge.
Firecracker1
May 16, 2006 @ 8:40 pm
Thanks kayaj2k! I scored 9/10! (Darn Rygel nicknames. ;) )
ixchup
May 18, 2006 @ 1:00 pm
Firecracker, I got 100% (making me a total geek).
BigBeagle
May 18, 2006 @ 2:09 pm
I may have to turn in my Scaper Card ... I only scored 7 out of 10.
AnnieF
May 18, 2006 @ 4:14 pm
Grrr...that pesky Rygel nickname question got me too!
ellenrose
May 19, 2006 @ 8:46 am
9/10 but I am ashamed. I didn't get the name for Scorpius in WGFA. Unbelievable. That is my #1 ep - tied with Dog with Two Bones. I see the average was 5/10 so I think all of us are doing very well.
Still..........COME ON: not getting Giant Rabbit. Plus I just realized now why those two are dressed in rabbit costumes in Bad Timing. I am soooooooo slow. Put me out of my misery. Please.
garymarcella
May 19, 2006 @ 11:56 am
ellenrose If you are slow I must be dead. I never understood why they were in rabbit costumes. My recollection of the time must be Kansas and Terra Firma was at Christmas and bad timing came out around Easter. If there is another reason than maybe Aeryn being pregnant or that it was Easter on Earth I'd like to know. I'm getting pretty stupid in my old age. Thanks in advance.
Betsyb
May 21, 2006 @ 9:11 am
I never understood why they were in rabbit costumes. My recollection of the time must be Kansas and Terra Firma was at Christmas and bad timing came out around Easter. If there is another reason than maybe Aeryn being pregnant or that it was Easter on Earth I'd like to know. I'm getting pretty stupid in my old age. Thanks in advance.
I wasn't sure why either. ALthough I always thought it was a visual refrence to Harvey, the clone's namsake. Harvey was a pooka in the form of a six foot tall rabbit that only Jimmy Stewart could see in the movie of the same name. And eventhough the audience never saw Harvey you feel like you did. Every one else thought Stewart's character had gone mad which is very fitting. Amazing movie and a great refrence. Because the clone really is much more of a Harvey than a Clarence.
But I have no idea if that's why he was dressed like that just an assumption.
The nickname question caught me to. And I am pretty sure I have a vague memory of taking this test before so its really bad.
ixchup
May 22, 2006 @ 8:13 am
Betsy, they are dressed up as rabbits because Bad Timing played around Easter Time in the US AND John was contemplating a plan that was really foolish. Harvey was trying to tell John that closing the wormhole to earth was quixotic at best. The battle of wills is actually really revealing about John's doubts. Harvey says (paraphrased) Either you believe in yourself -- in other words in the Easter Bunny, since Harvey says he is not religious or superstitious -- or don't do it and fail everyone. As usual in Farscape, you get bizarre humor and truth/angst in the same scene. Brilliant.
Firecracker1
May 22, 2006 @ 11:55 am
It took me a while to get there but I agree with ixchup. That and the fact that the image of John and Scorpy wrestling in cumbersome bunny suits will never leave my minds eye.
And chocolate.
Bad Timing is a fabulous episode.
crewbie
May 23, 2006 @ 1:33 pm
Well, erm, something to look forward to when I get to season 4 . . .
I've always been a sucker for the hot geek, so Crichton's kind of my ideal guy, if only his last name wasn't so hard to spell! I'm not done season 2 yet, so I've been trying not to read references to his later development. At this point, though, watching so many people frell with his mind, I think he's doing a good job of holding it together, if just barely. I honestly don't think I'd do much better under the circumstances.
I've seen a few episodes of SG-1, and I must say Ben Browder must be a really good actor, because I really didn't care for his character there, even though I love JC. I watched one of BB's interviews on the 1st season Best of DVDs and, as odd as this may sound, his manner really reminded me uncomfortably of Michael's interviews on The Office. Am I nuts?
Plumberduck
Jun 14, 2006 @ 12:44 pm
Does anybody else find themselves liking Chricton more the crazier he gets? Not "Crackers Don't Matter" crazy, not even "Marooned and obsessing about wormholes so I don't think about Aeryn" crazy (although his yelling in Klingon is one of my favorite Chricton moments), but that full-on "I am running on bravado and desperation and a plan that I personally know is stupid, but oh well, time to strap a nuclear bomb to my chest" kind of crazy. It's so very... Chricton. And if I'm using fuzzy adjectives, it's also so equally Chricton when he lets that manic state drop away so he can really look at himself.
kayaj2k
Jun 16, 2006 @ 3:42 pm
All things considered, I think Crichton manages to keep remarkably together. That said, he does a spectrum of crazy really well, everything from crazy haha to crazy rip my frelling heart out. I like the former, but the latter gets pretty heavy. Do we have any psychiatrists among us? I'd love to see Crichton's psych profile.
BigBeagle
Jun 19, 2006 @ 11:40 am
Plumberduck, I love me some crazy Crichton, and that scene from the "We're So Screwed" multi-parter that you referenced is one of my favorite examples.
hapsmith
Jun 21, 2006 @ 6:56 pm
his wife's British, he's surrounded by Aussies and he's toting serious lingual undertones as a Southerner, and the accent that comes out can't decide which one to emulate.
Ben Browder actually does a great english accent. And he can do a decent Aussie. But John Crichton is a bad actor. He thought it would be better to have Crichton be the idiot trying this accent when he is the only one that hears it in the first place. Trying to be the sleek, arrogant captain he *imagines* would be best. And then when he has the bug in him he was trying to be a bug, impersonating the Southern John, impersonating a PK. A geat clue to what the intetnion was when the bug John says "I reckon not." Confusing the accent and dialect.
Thanks for pointing that out.
Browder is so good at bad acting that he makes people forget that the character is the bad actor, not Ben. When FS started some folks commented that Ben didn't belong on a sci-fi show because he seemed out of place, lost, didn't know what he was doing or what was going on - Hello? Uncharted Territories - first human to contact aliens.
He showed his bad acting again near the end of Exodus from Genesis when he was threatening the PK bad guy. And again in the bar in Thank God It's Friday when he was pretending to be happy with the woman in white so she wouldn't know he had the worm protecting him. Ben acts badly all over the place and his accents are awful - But Wait! - that's John Crichton the bad actor and bad accent impersonator, not Ben Browder. It's truly impressive to be so good at showing a character being a bad actor that people get confused by it.
If you want to hear Ben do some serious accents, check out the audio book he did: Alan Dean Foster's "Interlopers". I kept forgetting Ben was the only one reading the book. He does a German accent that a German friend from another forum says is quite good.
Love ya, John!
miniglik
Jul 5, 2006 @ 11:15 pm
As a continuation of the discussion in the Rhapsody in Blue thread, regarding this by
Firecracker1:
It isn't that Crichton wasn't upset that Zhaan killed the man she was having sex with - it was because she did, indeed, kill the man she loved. Love is sex and sex is love for Crichton.
and
betsyb's response:
really? I never thought John equates love with sex. He has sex with people all of the time and he did long before the UTs started wreaking havoc with his mind. He didn't love Caroline. They had a no strings attached sex relationship. She makes it clear but he also hints at it with UR "I though Caroline kind of liked me." Like not love. He didn't love Jena. He didn't love "Karen Shaw" when he cheated on his girlfriend with her. Also, he didn't think D'Argo loved the girls in TGIFA. And he didn't naturally assume love between D and Chi in LATP. In fact, he warns D when he starts to mistake the sex with love. He also doesn't seem to think D felt anything more than lust for the Orican or Mattalla He is a very modern guy. He loves sex. And he wants love. But the two don't seem to go hand and hand with him on a regular basis. To me at least.
I think John was upset for the very natural reason that sex is when you are most vulnerable. And the idea that she would violate the trust implicit in a sexual relationship is disgusting. Most guys would be freaked. Or girls for that matter. Its like someone knowing they have AIDS but having unprotected sex anyway. Its a huge violation.
I tend to think that if John had ever heard of this guy that Zhaan killed before this moment, or he was shown the two of them in a more "emotionally intimate" way (like cuddling, or walkign together, or whatever) instead of physically intimate, he'd react more "you killed the man you loved?" But, the vision he is given is an obvious sexual reference (or metaphor), thus he's wigged out that she killed the man she was having sex with. It's kinda a weird, gross thing. People kill other people they "love" ALL the time. People do not kill people in the middle of sex all the time. Thus, that was his focus. I don't think it speaks to his inability to separate the concepts of sex and love.
Furthermore, I think John definitely displays the two sides of his sex/love coin in the Look at the Princess trilogy. Definitely sex=love when it's Aeryn. He's going fast with the body and the soul (like Chiana points out)... but he's definitely not that way with everyone. He enjoys kissing the girls on the Royal Planet... and I don't think it's all to spite Aeryn. He like women. He likes kissing them, and having sex with them. The sex with Jenavian is never painted with Jenavian as predator and Crichton prey, IMO. In fact, almost every visual is them meeting on equal sexual footing. Face to face in the water, side by side sitting on the log. They both wanted sex, and enjoyed it. Farscape has painted Crichton as sexual prey (Back and Back and Back to the Future, What Was Lost are the ones that come to mind right now), and they know how to provoke that reaction. But, it seemed deliberately avoided in this situation. And, yes, perhaps the experience did show Crichton that the only one he really wants is Aeryn, but he still went into it for the physical release.
Betsyb
Jul 5, 2006 @ 11:41 pm
miniglik is very smart so I also moved my thread. Hope that's OK.
I disagree and the storyline bears me out. Crichton asked Alex to marry him. She may not have loved him the way he loved her ... but he was prepared to spend the rest of his life with her. So that relationship proves my point.
Crichton was a pawn in that trilogy. He wasn't the instigator of sex with Jena. He wasn't the one in control. He was just a chess piece to be moved on the board. So I don't think that one counts against my theory either.
Karen Shaw happened to a horny 16 year old who while may believe that sex = love but - to paraphrase Xander - linoleum got him horny. He was thinking with the little head. A very different individual from the Crichton in Rhapsody in Blue. In fact RiB Crichton had about twice the life experience that Kansas Crichton had.
Caroline happened when Crichton was stoned to the eye teeth on laka and was doing his best to forget Aeryn. Whom he did love. And sex with Aeryn means everything to Crichton. Check out "Suns and Lovers" when Crichton actually tells Aeryn exactly that. So...
I think all those examples prove my point.
But Caroline was his fuck buddy long before TF, and I am pretty sure they didn't have sex there anyway. They had a no strings attached sex relationship when he was on earth WAY before he got launched into space. Which is made obvious in UR "John was the most gentle lover etc" and then "John was selfish..." etc. followed by "I thought Caroline kinda liked me" Not he thought it was love but that the fact that she answered his booty calls meant she probably liked him. And by Caroline's speech in TF about no strings
Also he may have been a pawn in LATP but he could have said no. She didn't exactly rape him. He was thinking with his dick there. Which he wouldn't have done if thought sex was only something you do when you love someone. Hell, John is always a pawn except by the end of Season 4. He is Scorpy's pawn, He is Einstein's pawn. He is the Ancient's pawn. That doesn't excuse any sexual relationships he has between AHR and HTK
Not to mention his attitude towards sex when other people have it. He never assumes his crewmates sexual escapades are the result of love.
He equates sex with Aeryn, whom he loves, with love. And he won't have one without the other because it would be letting her off too easy and he would get hurt. He wants to have sex with her and he wants to love her. Same with Alex.
For instance, I am not opposed to casual sex. And I don't automaticaly think that sex equals love. However, if I knew that I felt something for a man and wasn't sure he was ready to commit to me like I would want. I wouldn't let myself have sex with him either. Not because I think sex and love are the same thing but because I would be giving myself false hope. That is what John is afraid of with Aeryn.
Just because he has had sex with people he loves. Doesn't mean he only has sex with people he loves. They are two totally differant things. And I think John is loyal once he loves someone. But when he isn't commited its all good.
He has no problem picking chicks up in a bar if he isn't tied to that.
John is an all American guy. He likes beer, football, cheerleaders. Compared to aeryn he takes on some "feminine" features occasionally. Because she is so extreme at first. He just can't match her for testosterone. And as time goes on they even out so that neither is the traditional male or female and both take on the role they need to when they need to. By the end its not gender role reversal its completely disposing of the old gender stereotypes. Whcih I like better than supporting them just switching the sex. But even in the early days, that doesn't mean he takes on "womanly" ideas of sex. I am sure many women of his generation don't think sex and love have to go hand and hand.
Betsy, they are dressed up as rabbits because Bad Timing played around Easter Time in the US AND John was contemplating a plan that was really foolish. Harvey was trying to tell John that closing the wormhole to earth was quixotic at best. The battle of wills is actually really revealing about John's doubts. Harvey says (paraphrased) Either you believe in yourself -- in other words in the Easter Bunny, since Harvey says he is not religious or superstitious -- or don't do it and fail everyone. As usual in Farscape, you get bizarre humor and truth/angst in the same scene. Brilliant.
For some reason, I never saw this post before now. But thanks ixchup. That makes a lot of sense. Brilliant, indeed.
ChillinTheMost
Jul 6, 2006 @ 3:19 pm
I admit to only seeing the season 4 episodes once or twice back when they were on [but I'm currently rectifying that], so someone please point me in the direction of Caroline, the fuck buddy??? and John was cheating on a girlfriend with Karen Shaw? Where did these come from? I remember Caroline from one of the Earth episodes, but fuck buddy? I'm not saying these ideas are wrong, but either I never got that or I forgot it. Which episodes did these revelations come from? Quotes? -- or I can check a transcript...
Okay, I'm reading the transcript of Terra Firma and I got:
Caroline: ...No strings, no grand plans, just good, casual times...
which doesn't even mean that they had sex, but I'll assume that they did. That they dated, but not seriously. I think that's a bit distance from "fuck friend" and "booty calls". I don't think it was that cold of a relationship.
kostgard
Jul 6, 2006 @ 3:36 pm
I think Caroline appears in "Terra Firma" when everyone finds themselves on Earth. At some point in the episode Caroline asks Aeryn about her relationship with John, and when Aeryn answers "It's complicated" Caroline went on to say that her relationship with John wasn't complicated, implying that it was basically a physical relationship and nothing more. She didn't seem too broken up about the fact that John was clearly in love with Aeryn and didn't really respond to any of her (Caroline's) advances, so she seemed to view it as a strictly casual relationship.
As for cheating on his girlfriend - that was in "Kansas", where teenage Crichton had a girlfriend (I think her name was Kim?), but he slept with who he remembers as "Karen Shaw" (actually Chiana) when she basically put the moves on him.
ChillinTheMost
Jul 6, 2006 @ 3:55 pm
I was editing my post while you were responding, kostgard. I found the Caroline/casual times quote, I guess I just don't see it as cold and unfeeling as it was stated earlier [fuck friends/booty calls]. I think they were dating, but that they really didn't think it was a long-term relationship. To me, that's a bit distant from "booty call".
I remembered the Chiana/Karen stuff, but didn't remember that John had a girlfriend. I'll have to check that out - as to whether the other girl was a committed relationship or just someone he was dating, not exclusively. Or something like that.
Yeah, John's a guy and I don't see him turning down no-strings sex, but I don't see him as cold and calculating about it.
lpl
Jul 6, 2006 @ 4:16 pm
So I see that I was a little late to the party here ...
Perhaps "fuck buddy" isn't the correct term; maybe it's just that John and Caroline had casual sex. I agree that their relationship wasn't cold and uncaring - it just wasn't going to go anywhere, and both of them seemed to be satisfied with that. By Terra Firma, it wasn't even casual sex anymore.
uptoolate1966
Jul 6, 2006 @ 4:17 pm
In Family Ties, when Chiana wants to have sex with Crichton before he goes off to, most likely, die for them, Crichton says no. In the commentary track, BB says something like, "What's up with Crichton's tendency to turn down sex?"
I'm not sure that this says anything about Crichton's attitude to sex in general so much as his relationships at the moment. He's falling for Aeryn and he's hopeful that there are possibilities there. He knows that Chiana is "family" and a casual one-night stand would be more complicated than he wants. Also, he seems to be seeing Chi in that "little sister" way, he knows she's only offering because she doesn't know how else to say "thanks," and he doesn't want to take advantage.
ChillinTheMost
Jul 6, 2006 @ 4:44 pm
I agree, uptoolate1966.
And, lpl, [and betsyb], I sometimes may be too vigorous in my defense of John. I know he's not perfect.
I'll continue to defend him, though!
lpl
Jul 6, 2006 @ 5:22 pm
Actually, ChillinTheMost, I didn't see it as a vigorous defense of John at all. It just sounds like we have different definitions for certain terms here... You just keep on defending him! Makes for great conversations.
John the Younger did cheat on his girlfriend, Kim, with Chiana. Whether it was a committed relationship or not? Well, they were teenagers, at around 16 years of age (or so) and there was that Karen Shaw thing. Also kinda hard to be exclusive if you're going to have sex with someone else...
Which brings up an issue that I would love to have someone address: why would he leave her alone with his younger self, knowing that she's likely to try something? Chiana says, "No questions asked," so he knows she's up to something - he doesn't suspect? Why not? In either a commentary or an interview I read, Ben says something on the order that John is attracted to Chiana, but she's grey! and at the time, he wasn't that long gone from Earth. The writers certainly play up the "little sister" angle. So I think that Chiana knows that John won't have sex with her - she's tried enough times. This can't be all about tying together comments made during Season 1 and 3. Is it?
Betsyb
Jul 6, 2006 @ 5:27 pm
I was editing my post while you were responding, kostgard. I found the Caroline/casual times quote, I guess I just don't see it as cold and unfeeling as it was stated earlier [fuck friends/booty calls]. I think they were dating, but that they really didn't think it was a long-term relationship. To me, that's a bit distant from "booty call".
I am sorry. I think this is a personal differance not a fundamental differance of opinion. Its like how everyone has a differant definition of "hook up". I didn't mean it cold and uncaring. To me there is nothing wrong with a "fuck buddy". In fact, in my circle of friends they are usually really good friends who occasionally cross the line. But they aren't potential spouces. Personally, I am engaged so they are out. But its this way with most of my friends. Occasionally these freinds are more signficant than some boyfriends/girlfriends. And for the record, I am actually one of the few people who really enjoy Caroline. I thought she was a nice person. Who thought John had been lost in space with crazy aliens and wanted to give him some comfort and good times. When she finally realized one alien was more than just a friend she backed off.
All I meant was there is no hint that John was really truly in love with Caroline and it was fairly casual. My harsh language is just a personal habit because I have no class.
As to John having a girlfriend in Kansas. Firecracker was right he was to young to let that stain his character. When I was sixteen a boyfriend cheating was the end of the world. But now that I am older I do understand that there isn't the same level of control. Still feel really bad for Kim. Because we have all been that girl.
That being said. Older John tells the story of Karen Shaw with a hint of fond memory eventhough he knows he was cheating on Kim. And that never bothers him. But again I don't think that means he is a bad man. Of course, he will think fondly of his first time.
And, lpl, [and betsyb], I sometimes may be too vigorous in my defense of John. I know he's not perfect.
I'll continue to defend him, though!
I adore John. And I defend him a lot too. I honestly don't think there is anything wrong with having a good time with someone if you aren't commited. And from what we have seen of john's attitude towards sex and his response to other's sex life he doesn't think so either. I think there are a lot of people who feel that way. Not that that is necesarily the right way to think but it is a common one. If not the dating scene would be non-exsistant. Now he was technically married when he was with Jena but I don't think that should count.
ETA I think I went overboard in my statements. I never meant to suggest that John is a callous cad who goes whoring around town. He is a good guy. He wants to be married like a lot of good guys. But like miniglik says he is an average guy. And if, sometimes, he can't be with the one he loves than he loves the one he is with. For instance, if he thinks there is even a HOPE that Aeryn will be with him he won't chase someone else. Its only when he has lost that hope that he searches people out. Which is why I don't think he did much with Caroline in TF because deep down all he wanted was to be with Aeryn. It was just Scorpy in the way.
In refrence to the famous scene in CDM where he almost rapes Chianna, Ben Browder says that what makes John a good guy is not that he is incapable of doing bad things. Or that he doesn't have bad urges. But its that he represses them and usually doens't act on it. John isn't naturally an angel. I am sure he would love to have sex with Chi just once. But he doesn't act on it. All I mean is that John doesn't naturally think of sex and love as the same thing. But he cares about the people he loves so he refuses to allow himself to hurt that loved one by cheating. No matter how tempted he may be.But the temptation will always be there.
miniglik
Jul 6, 2006 @ 5:32 pm
I'll continue to defend him, though!
I find myself driven to defend him too, and I have no idea why. Like, he's a fiction character, woman...[/talkingtoself]
But, not on this. I think Crichton is just the average adult hetero guy in this instance. He's a decent guy, he prefers sex with the woman he loves to anonymous sex. But if he's single and really drunk, or really down, or really lonely, or, just... bored with a hot interested woman there, then he's probably going to hit that. I think calling Caroline a "fuck buddy" is just a way of saying they had physical intimacy but not a lot of emotional intimacy. It doesn't mean John is cold and calculating to her. She seems okay with their relationship. He's a good looking, intelligent, fairly nice guy -- he's probably even more of a catch on earth than he is in the UT. He probably got a good deal of sex on earth, some with women he cared about, some with women that were available and interested.
EDIT: Yeah,
betsyb, what you said. As far as personal views on sex, I tend to believe more in sexonlyinlove (not that I totally stuck to it, but I digress), but I don't have a problem with the way John is played here, because I think he views sex the way most adults do. (Hee. My man was a bit of a man-ho too, before me. I don't have a problem with that, as long as he's monogomous in a relationship.) So, I'm definitely not condemning John Crichton for man-whoriness (hee), whether or not he actually did sleep around.
Now, I might fight someone to the death (or to the pain!) for saying Crichton's stupid. But, this isn't something I feel the need to defend him on.