Here's the place to discuss the ins and outs of Cylon biology; Humlon, toaster, raider, and whatever other incarnations they come up with.

What we've been told/shown so far:
Humlons look like us, and are indistinguishable from humans, even in an autopsy.
If Humlon bodies are cremated, there is a chemical trace which identifies them as Cylon.
Cylons are susceptible to a kind of radiation which is found outside Ragnar Anchorage. It interferes with their 'silicon pathways,' according to Adama.
Humlons are having trouble getting pregnant, and only love can bring about a baby.

On the other hand:
Humlons are stronger and have more endurance than humans.
Their spines glow red when they have sex, or possibly just when they enjoy sex.
The Boomer model has a USB port in her forearm and can talk to Cylon computers.

I think for all the fanwanking, Moore just wanted to have his cake and eat it too. He wants the Humlons to be difficult to identify, but he wants cool scenes of glowy spines and computer/human linkage. So we live with the inconsistencies.

Cylon and Colonial computers. Boomer interfaced with Galactica's com system in "Flight of the Phoenix".

I think the problem was the fact the she asked for a fiber optic line. If it had been something like an ethernet cable, you could fanwank that her nervous system has the ability to send and receive the electrical impulses of a computer network ("She has a 100-base T spinal column!") and all she needed to do was get the wire to touch a nerve. But since fiber optics rely on light, that made it a little hard to explain.

stillshimpy



They're sensitive to certain kinds of radiation (e.g., the kind present at Ragnar), not all radiation. Also, the radiation they're sensitive to is not limited just to Humlons. Leoben suspected the reason the Colonials built Ragnar where they did was because they discovered it messed "with silica pathways". It probably would have been just as harmful to Centurions over a lengthy period of time.

Humlons are also sensitive to high levels of radiation for long periods of time. Leoben on Rangor seemed to be melting down and Doral wasn't in great shape when they found him there either.

Presumably Baltar's dectecting device actually also worked but he rigged it for reasons of saving his own neck and a lot of work to boot.

This seems to contrast with "How do the Humlons survive on the planets they nuked?" My guess is that the radiation levels weren't as high or, since Helo begins to suffer after he's using standard anti-radiation meds in KLG's - the Humlons developed a higher level of anti-radition meds so that they wouldn't melt down. Is this possibly why Sharon's baby was in jeopardy even before she was roughed up at all?

I've always presumed that the Humlon's craved desire, love, and experience (sometimes synonymous with hope) to be closer to being human. It's as if they want to get as close as they can but believe themselves to be above pettiness. That's were the rub comes in though from my standpoint, they feel (if we are to believe the various humlons) and they seem to feel angry and vengeful. Hurt and depressed. It almost seems an accident that oops, they began to develop the full package.

The closer they get to that which is the human experience the more they seem to distance themselves, subconsciously or conciously from being machines but that seems to be the true flaw.

Avenging Three (D'anna) about to blow Anders away was brained by CapricaSix.

Her last statement had me wondering though "God loves me." was said with pride. If the Cylon belief system is anything close to the human bible then pride is a sin in the eyes of God.

Since they put so much emphasis on "I'm just another Six." etc I'm assuming (perhaps wrongfully) that they got too close to emmulating humanity, right down to having personality differences and a sense of individuality in some models.

Also, the entire "Oh, we must need love." has child-like quality (if your kid is Chucky, I guess) that fits with the entire descent (asscent?) into a possibly human-like mindset. Humans don't believe that only love can bring about a baby but as a child I can remember being told that "If a man loves a woman very much then..." bullshit bullshit....but as a very young child.

I find it interesting that the various raiders and whatnot have a simplistic brain and are thought of as pets. Yet another sign that in this "plan" they wanted something to feel affection towards.

Boomers humming to the captured raptor and the way she was petting it also seems to suggest that long before the "We need Love for a baby! Of course!" revelation they craved love in a different form.

After all, they are all on a quest to be worthy of God's (as defined by them) love.

Edited for perhaps the worst typos on earth. My apologies.

I've been thinking about this, too, though not just from the physiological point of view, since Cottle made his comment to Sharon about the Cylons not "upgrading the plumbing."

Granted, humans were the only models that the Cylons had for a "skin job" (as far as we know), but it's intriguing that they didn't make themselves better. Of course, it's reasonable that they didn't "upgrade the plumbing" because they didn't know that there can be such problems with it. Still, they did do a lot of research on humans.

I think there's something deeper, more psychological, in the Cylons' wish to appear human, and that's intriguing. Also, the toasters seem to be used as workers (planting trees, patrolling, etc.) while the Humlons appear to be in charge. This sort of "class" system could lead them right back to a rebellion.

Anyway, just sharing some thoughts.

Speaking of plumbing, do the male skin jobs have any? It doesn't seem like they are very interested in sex at all. And it seems that the females are a lot more "aggressive," almost like they've been infused with a bit more testosterone than the boys. Although maybe they have the wrong steroid formulation, and gave them all the bodybuilders' anabolic steroids, which foments aggressiveness and strength but shrinks testicles in males.

Yeah, we've been given a lot more information on Humlon females than males, although didn't Sharon or Cymon on Caprica say the Cylons weren't successful at breeding with each other, and that's why they tried Sharon with Helo? Sounds like the male Humlons have at least been given the right plumbing in order to reproduce in a 'human' way with female Humlons. I'd like to know more about this, if for no other reason than the Humlon hot robot sex babe trope is pretty typical of scifi in a way this show usually isn't.

Leoben was able to rip apart his handcuffs and throw the table and wrap one hand around Starbuck's neck in no time flat, so I think at least he's been given the Cylon steroids. Maybe they wouldn't bother with Doral? Since he seems to have been created to fuss about with PR stats and make latte.

In terms of sexuality I think that The Farm made it clear that the Cylon males (we've only seen three of them) are capable. After all Sharon says that if Kara had agreed she might have "even been set up with someone [she] liked."

So the bits and parts are functioning but is the drive there? Doral wonders about what it would be like to feel love. Does love equal desire in the Humlon world (before Sharon's run for it with Helo)?

Also, I may have been imagining it but there seemed to be a moment in which Leoben was either going to rip Kara's throat out or kiss her. He had some kind of interest in her that may have gone beyond the "you have a destiny" thing.

He was eyeing her up pretty well, or so it seemed. Maybe not. As for the increased strength that seemed to be something he could have displayed at any point but chose not to. There was something akin to sexual vibes when they touched hands through the glass before Leogben was airlocked. Simon also seemed to have something of an interest in Kara.

I think the male Cylons are imprinted with sexuality but the problem becomes having a human female carry the child. After all, if she knows what's inside of her will she harm herself, try to reject or abort it? After all, Sharon's baby seemed to have a low level of communicating with her while she was gestating. She knew the gender, etc. Perhaps that hasn't proven compatible with human women?

Leoben had a chance to kill Kara and Laura but instead he screws with both of their minds. He seemed the most masculine and threatening or possibly helpful Humlon we've met. He's also seemingly absolutely screwy in a different sense.

Moore's take on it was that the Humlons (women at least) discovered that they could enjoy sex with a human. Maybe the problem with the Humlon males that know they are Humlons (instead of sleeper agents) have difficulty with ye olde erectial dysfunction? I just don't know.

D'Anna seemed to have no interest in sex as far as we could tell so it's really only Boomer/Sharon and the various sixes we have to judge by.

D'Anna seems to be basking in God's love and might be the nun figure.

But Leoben was absolutely seductive, not in terms of sexuality neccessariy but in his ability to weild his one gift which seems to be mysticism or psychic ability.

Maybe they are all imprinted with vairious forms of archetypes? They tried to reproduce on their own and couldn't. Those women in the farm (and Moore confirmed that men were used also) suggest that sexual desire isn't the problem.

RDM has said (paraphrasing) that the Cylons, after observing humanity, decided that there were basically 12 different personality archetypes, hence the 12 models.

jcin617, I'm not entirely sure this is 'physiology' and not more suited to 'Mythological References', or one of the other supplimentary Cylon topics, but I thought I'd contribute a link:

http://www.physics.adelaide.edu.au/~iborch...ane/heroes.html

Here are the traditional 12 Archetypes. Discuss!

I've got absolutely no idea if this is the right thread for what I'm about to say, so please redirect me as need be. Alright, here we go.

I'm curious about some time-line/Cylon-growth-rate issues. Somewhere in his blog on the official BSG website, Ron Moore has said that Helo and Sharon's cybrid baby will grow at a normal human rate, i.e. she won't have any special physiology which will help her age faster. So here is my question. Is that the same for the Humlons? Because that has some fairly serious implications for the show, regarding questions like; when were the Humlons first developed and how long have they been undercover in humanity?

Brother Cavil, if we are being generous, is at least 60 years old. Does that mean Humlons were developed over 60 years ago? Prior to the first Cylon war? Of course, the obvious question which comes from this is, do the Humlons age like humans? Are they born as babies and raised? Or are they clones which are 'born' at the age which we see them?

And I'm not really looking for a scientific explanation here. Just curious about the 'laws of the show' and what it means for the characters and the story arcs.

Mind you, I'm also curious about how the Humlons were created and whether they were 'modelled' on specific human beings. If they were modelled on specific people, we could one day get a story line where we see clones of someone who is not actually a Cylon; but instead the original on which the model is based. Maybe Leoben was telling the truth. Maybe Adama is a Cylon. Or at least there are Adama Cylons out there, even if the one leading the fleet is a human.

Thoughts? Conjecture? Vitriol?

RDM has specially said that there were never real humans that the Humlons were based off of. I'm too lazy to find the specific quote, but I'm sure it's somewhere in his blog. I did read an excellent fic once that dicussed that, but it's offically not canon.



This is the thing that most intersts me. From the information that we have, I presumed that not only did they need love for a Cybrid, but also biological human tissue, since Cylons are sythetic. This also ties into the growth/age question, because perhaps they needed human tissue as a base for a Cybrid to grow/survive. Also, I think from what we saw of the Resserection Ship, the Humlons come ready-made adult at the moment.

Also, if you contend that the only thing needed for the Cylons to reproduce is love, then could you possibly have two Cylons fall in love and produce offspring. Or would it 'not count' because technically the emotions aren't real, they're just programming.



For some reason, I think that they just happened to make his model look older. If the Cylons had Humlons before/during the Cylon War I, wouldn't they have used them for sabatoge then too? It seems like they would have used them as a weapon if they had them.

(BTW, I could talk about this all day. As much as I love our humans and their issues, I'd much rather dicuss our little robot friends.)

you know i think scapebabe might be on to something. looking at the list of 12 Heroic Archetypes, one can pretty easily match characters up to an archetypes(Six=Lover, Boomer=Innocent, Simon=Caregiver, etc.).

I've always wanked in my head that the original non-Humlon Cylon models kidnapped a random freighter crew or something, stole their DNA, and began experimenting on them. However, I doubt the Cylons would let the originals go free.


Maybe that's a side effect of the cloning itself. After they created the first clone sheep Dolly, they discovered Dolly had about the "age" of her DNA donor.

Since Human DNA also degrades over time (the scienc-y definition of aging), they probably got the DNA of the model we know as Cavill simply from an old guy, and the Boomer DNA from a young woman. Every clone they'd make from it would have essentially the same age.

Of course, that raises a major problem: If the humlons reach their biological age limit, their downloading process is toast. Because, downloading from a dead 136-year-old body into a live one with the same biological age? Somehow I doubt it's something to look forward to.

This is beautifully put, and I suspect really important and deliberate. What if humlons can in fact interbreed, and only their {I suspect) artificial environments and Cylon-couple disinterest -- most of all, their insistence on human love, was what kept it from happening? Also -- wouldn't such a "real" Cylon child immediately supersede Hera, whom they might suddenly view as "polluted" or unclean?

It's also simple, and natural. In so many creation stories, humans come first, then animals to serve them. If the Raiders, etc., are "animals" to our "human" models, then as animals they have the simpler brains, built on that more basic ancient "R-complex," and the simpler, sharper emotions to boot. Simpler brains mean simpler responses, and rather uncomplicated emotions -- love, rage, sadness, etc. I personally believe that it's been pretty firmly established that animals experience emotions, so the episode "Scar" was an awesome look at an "animal" that was enraged and wounded and locked into specific believable behavior patterns.

I agree. I can't escape the idea that the Humlons are so perfectly human because, well, the Cylons made them in the image of man, their original "god." The Cylons may hate us but we were the only gods they knew. Part of me thinks they still see humans as "perfect" -- so why improve on life, on perfection? The imperfections of the humlons could even be a source of pride -- they're just like humans!

Which of course makes me dying to see who made the Humlons, and what they look like, what their motivations were.

Wow, this was awesomely prophetic. I wondered about that too. For me, there was also some chemistry (albeit weird) with Laura too, where Leoben was concerned. The interesting thing is that it comes across to me as oddly pure -- not like Doral, who (pun intended) is an enraged robot, or Cavil, who is simply losing himself in sensations, almost like a teenager. Leoben's like a monk who fell off the deep end, believing (again in that rather innocent way) that obsession (sex?) must equal love with a capital L.

Awesome. My guesses at assignation would include Six as the Lover (and adore that it is indeed #6), Cymon as Caregiver, Leoben as the Sage, Doral as the Ruler, Sharon/Eight the Creator (and again, how cool is it that this is #8?). I kind of see D'Anna as #5, though, the Seeker (versus any of the others). Some of the numbers fit well but others are a mix...

I actually wonder at this too. Surely some (several) Humlons have fallen in love and formed relationships... if not, why not? They are so human. Why do they only yearn for powerful connection with the humans they supposedly hate?

Wouldn't it be more a matter of the 136-year-old downloading into a nice young fresh Sharon body? Which fits, to me, more with the cylon casualness about death -- they are almost immortal...

What I don't get is why all the Humlon women are hotties and the males aren't hunks. Doral is a short weasley looking guy, Cavil might as weel be wearing a trenchcoat, and Leoban might be hot if he wasn't so weird.
If they have been occupying for 4 months why haven't they tried some more pairings with human males. I'm sure males of the resistance would be more likely to have an affair with Six or Eight, before joining the NCP. If you want to win some 'hearts and minds' get your legs in the air Cygrrrls!!

The original creator of the humlon was an incredibly geeky guy with a pocket protectir and thick glasses, and hoped to fulfill every geek's fantasy of making it with a hot chick by designing the models this way.

This is probably why the Humlon/human breeding program is necessary, with the hope that future generations of Cybrids will be more desirable to each other, and they won't need to cross-species breed.

I think Leoben and Simon are both hot, but then, I don't go for Jude Law types anyway. Doral could also be attractive if he weren't playing an enraged tax weasel most of the time.

When I first started watching BSG, I wasn't on board with Six for awhile, thinking, yeah, she was too obviously hot, the Seven-of-Nine type here for the male demographic, etc. But I soon became a convert. I love the way the character subverts her hotness, how scary, smart, and complicated Six can be, and the way she uses her exterior as a temptress to both torment and entrance Baltar (and others). And combining a real, deep, devout sense of faith with that rather misleadingly simple, 'pleasure-model' exterior -- it's awesome.

There may also be some interesting psychology behind the Humlon physical archetypes. Six is so gorgeous, and so predatorily seductive that when necessary, she'll coolly walk right up to a stranger and begin to seduce him (as with Helo for instance, or even that attempt with Adama after only a few minutes). While I hesitate to generalize (because of course there are always exceptions on both sides of the gender fence), I do think just because of the wiring differences (pun intended), many men might be more apt to go, "Huh? Wow. Oookay," where a woman would be wary and mistrustful of the same approach from a strange man, no matter how handsome. So an overly seductive type wouldn't work as well with women, who aren't as visual, who aren't as responsive to that kind of approach -- it would be something stealthier, more surprising. I am interested to see, though, if eventually there is a male counterpart to Six, a young, supermasculine, heroic type for instance -- it would fill a niche nicely...

It would seem to me that the gaps to be filled in the 12 physical archetypes by the remaining Cylon models might include:

* A child (but I don't think it's Kacey...)
* An older woman (sixtyish or above)
* A young man, the classic hero type
* A vigorous middle-aged man (I would love, love, love it if Adair/Colm Feore turned out to be a Cylon, for instance
* A middle-aged woman (Elosha would have been perfect)

Paramitch:

No, because: For example, I'm 26 years old. If I take liver cells from myself and store them away somewhere, I have a sample of my DNA stashed away. Now, I live up until 2056 or so, and decide being old just isn't what it used to be, remember my liver cells from 2006 and get a gun. So my dear Cylon buddies take said liver cells to create a new Teshik body, download my consciousness into it and I wake up...only to discover I'm still 76 years old. Dang.

Why? Aging is basically DNA degrading. Cells with degraded DNA cannot fulfill all their functions they originally could, so you're getting wrinkles, your hairs fall out, your back hurts, yadda yadda. That means my liver cells, which degraded over time too, would only create a copy that's about as old as the original.

Of course, I'm assuming the Cylons could slow down the degrading process...up to a point. (say, they age only one half/third as fast as humans or so). But ultimately, the copies age.

PhatShady:

Maybe it's for better infiltration purposes. Assume the Colonial society is roughly like ours (man/woman are equal, but more men in higher management positions). Since the case of Baltar vs. Natasi we all know the way to a man's Colonial Defense Grid is directly through his penis. So, being a hot Tricia Helfer has its advantages. Being Grace Park or Lucy Lawless definitely helps too, of course ;-)
As for the males, if I want to infiltrate a colonial defense operation without doing the icky exchange of bodily fluids part, I want to make sure I'm easy to overlook. Being a hunk with a shoulder span of 6 feet won't help here. Plus, who fits better into a tiny hiding-place in case of detection: Doral, or Arnold Schwarzenegger?
Also, what Paramitch said in relation of seductive women vs. men. Men are easier. Heh.

There's also the consideration that the Cylons are all about breeding. If a human male falls in love with a humlon female and gets her pregnant, she can go back to a basestar and give birth, and the Cylons have a little cybrid all their own.

If a humlon male falls in love with a human female, no way in hell are the Cylons getting their hands on that offspring without a fight. It's just less effort if you make the seducers female.

Unless, of course, they go native, but I don't think the Cylons anticipated that.



Only if you're silly and don't use stem cells in stasis instead.

Not a perfect fit here but far closer than where I started in the episode thread. Regarding the virus encountered in Torn:

RDM stated that water is important to the Humlons (Torn Podcast) so the fact that Raven Haired Six was dehydrated and one of the eights was throwing up seems significant. We did see significant water interaction in Torn.

Whatever the virus is, it deprives the Humlons of water and causes chaos in the systems. The hybrid is also partially submerged suggesting that water is a key element in its systems.

Hell, there are strains of influenza that cause dehydration and throw electrolytes off balance.

Dogs and cats carry different strains of a variety of viruses and can die from something that might manifest as a mild respiratory infection in a human being if at all.

The odd thing about the virus being caused by bacteria - again something RDM stated and which will presumably be addressed more fully - is interesting considering that Cylon blood has the ability to cure cancer in human beings.


Maybe the Humlons are simply encountering a common germ from back in the days of the Kobol exodus that caused a mild illness in people but that the Humlons were unaware of when they were developed?

It makes a certain kind of sense. If something like a time machine was invented and we were able to go back in time, our immune systems would go into a complete panic over strains of common bacteria that our systems simply aren't used to dealing with if we landed in say, 1432.

I really don't know much about the structure of bacteria or the longevity, I just know that strains of bacteria evolve and change. The various forms of strep being one example. If the virus is an archaic one the Humlons would not have anticipated it in their makeup and might be susceptible.

But the thing I don't understand is why it would have absolutely no impact on human beings. Wouldn't the same hold true for our immune systems? Anybody have a good knowledge base in immunology? I know that bacteria can have a freakishly lengthy life but how does the human immune system function in terms of viral strains from the past?

I'm really out of my depth so please forgive how simplisticly this is worded:

If any of us encountered a strain of disease that our ancestors had developed immunity to, is that immunity coded into our genetic makeup? It doesn't seem likely.

So, does that then mean that bacteria never had the ability to make human beings sick but it simply wasn't anticipated by or known to Humlons? That's possible right? I think I just answered my own question but I still need an ice pack for my head.

Virus and bacteria are different entities. Bacteria are small single-celled organisms. Viruses are generally just genetic material encapsulated in some kind of protein - and are much much smaller than bacteria. Sometimes viruses are carried around in bacteria, but that's not usually what causes infectious disease. Human immune systems are multi-faceted - we have an arm to fight parasites (probably the Immunoglobilin E and mast cells and histiocytes), an arm to fight bacteria (the polynucleated white blood cells and, secondarily, immunoglobulins (antibodies)), and another arm to fight viruses (the mononuclear white blood cells incl T and B lymphocytes, and secondarily the immunoglobulins (antibodies)). The white blood cells get out there and eat up the bad guys, and also make antibodies to tag the bad guys for killing. The first reaction antibody is an "M" antibody, which is somewhat nonspecific, but once you've been exposed to a bacteria, or virus (and probably parasite, fungus et al) you make a specific IgG anitbody that is like a guided missle to kill bad foes. This is why if you get the very same infectious illness a second time, you tend to have far fewer symptoms, if any, and it doesn't last. Practice makes perfect with the immune system.

Different baddies attack the body in different ways - and different genetics help humans fight off disease with differing success depending on genes. If your ancestors lived in heavily populated areas swarming with disease, your immune system probably gives you a leg up on most of the major common epidemics - because those who survived lived on to create you. So their immune system had the right power and strength and mix of cells to make a good cocktail to fight the illness. You don't inherit the actual antibodies (though they do get transmitted in breast milk for temporary coverage for vulnerable newborns), but you do inherit the immune system particulars of machinery. Also, weird things like sickle cell trait can prevent infection with malaria. It's not an immune system thing, it's a shape of the red blood cell thing, but still genetic.

Cylons would likely be incredibly vulnerable to biological illnesses if they have basically the "same plumbing" as humans - because they are clones (I suppose?). Without genetic diversity, if a nasty syphillis strain quickly kills one Brother Cavil, it will likely quickly kill all the Brother Cavils.

I still think the Basestar illness looked fungal - which can kill pretty well too. But hey, that's my take.

from the Ethics thread:



and



Yes, but if humans can't always distinguish the individuals within the models, will Hera? We don't know yet what abilities (dare I say "features"?) she has inherited from her respective parents. We don't know, for example, whether she could pull off the "networking with my arm" trick Sharon did, or whether she'll be able to cylo-project.

Huh. I wonder what baby perception overlaid with cylon perception would be like. Or imagine a two-year-old with that ability -- they'd just go to their happy place when you gave them a time out. Do we know yet how long it takes to develop/mature a humlon? I don't get the impression that they mature at the same rate as humans. No one knows what to expect of her or for her. I imagine that, whether she grows up with the humans or the cylons she's going to spend a lot of time being stuck with needles.

Stem cells? Dontcha know how expensive them thingies are?

Heh. Okay, I admit it, you're right. Still, it would have been a nice explanation once we hit Season 14 or so and half of the models are trying to hide their grey streaks ;-)

Regarding the virus:

It's only natural that after 3600 years the genetic makeup of the colonists (and therefore, of the Cylon models) has made a shift. The more interesting question will be: How much of the colonial (human) population is immune against that virus/bacteria/whatever it is? (Because I'm quite sure they'll go the "biological weapon/taking the genocide back on their turf" route quite soon in the future)


It's probably a combination of factors:
a)They look human, but probably can think faster than we do. When Three encounters Athena on New Caprica, she just had to make an inventory query in her head:
SELECT * FROM TraitorsAgainstCylonity WHERE (CylonModel = "8" AND CylonIndividual <> "Boxed");
--> 1 Row(s) returned.
b)One can assume the individual humlons know where exactly the Caprica Six is currently residing, given she stands out as "the hero". Plus, if, say, a Doral wants a little chat with her, he just has to ask the Hybrid where she's frolicing around in the forest at the moment.
c)The models are cloned. But just like twins, they aren't physically identical. gestures, mimic, fashion, hair style, the little bonk on the head they got when they tripped in that slippery resurrection pod...

As for Hera, we don't even know yet if she'll regard herself as a Cylon or Human. Then, how'd she recognize an Eight? She's seen her real parents for five minutes, tops. Plus, you have to take Poor Dead Adoptive Mom Maya and ChipSix's CrazyBabyMath into account... poor thing. I really hope one of the remaining Five Models is a good psychologist.

It totally slipped my mind that Hera had only known Sharon Agathon via womb and plastic neonatal bed. Duh. But it is an interesting idea... cylons can tell each other apart because they can read the rfid tag or whatever, but a hybrid, without those skillz perhaps... I was wondering if there were some pheromone equivalent of rfid tag that a human who knew someone really well could recognize. Like a baby its mother.


And I'm pretty sure the Cylons use Leoben for a psychologist. Heh.


ed for spelling

Thanks for your explanation, bisous. My knowledge base when it comes to the immune system runs to the "No. I don't get flu shots generally speaking. I do however use antibacterial everything."

I'm off to the ethics thread where I'm likely to screw up a point about the virus regardless but I did want to thank you.

On the subject of Sharon's baby in Cylon hands. Since the Humlons are almost guaranteed to try and indoctrinate Hera as a Cylon I hope she is not compatible with uploading information.

I think there's little doubt that she'll eventually be rescued but it would be nice if she was returned to humanity without having to overcome, as a baby no less, a general hatred for people.

Good point, StillShimpy. But I'm not sure a child as young as Hera would be able to assimilate downloaded information. She's probably a highly intelligent toddler, but she's still a toddler. The Cylons would be downloading the 'template' into matured, adult brains when they activated a new copy. There wouldn't be a learning curve. Which isn't to say that I know much about brains, but I'm pretty sure even a pop tart toddler wouldn't understand everything that could be pumped into an adult's brain.

Bisous gave a really good explanation, but if you're interested in more information about bacteria, viruses, and how different populations develop immunity to different diseases, I recommend the book "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Jared Diamond. Yeah, he's a scientist, but the book is written to a lay audience and is very easy to understand. Even I, a liberal arts major who never took more than the bare minimum of science courses in my life, was able to follow his explanations! Should be available at any public library. It won a Pulitzer, I believe.

Hope this isn't too OT.

I think the humlons may be developing personalities that differ among the same models even if they have the same memories. As for this love they’re all curious about and longing for it just always bring more questions to mind. The humlons are a lot like adolescents newly experiencing wild hormonal surges. Some know what to do about those urges and some don’t. Cavil is creepy/mean and just plain horny all the time – and apparently doesn’t need any E.D. medication in spite of his age. Maybe the humlons have incredible staying power.

Caprica 6 spends a lot of time just being gorgeous and sexy and leading Baltar around by a sensitive part of his anatomy to seduce him into doing what she wants. Which isn’t difficult. He’s so easy! It appears that Six whole heartedly approves of sex any time, any where. However, I believe love did change Six somewhat and I think most of the models of Six really love Baltar, someone I’d have thought only a mother could love and she’d have to work at it. But Six – which model? or all the models? – are always giving him soft, longing looks.

For a while I sort of looked at D’Anna as being blah until now that she’s obsessed with Hera. I believe Hera might be the one that teaches her about love because love comes in all kinds of package. The look on D’Anna’s face when she took possession of Hera was an eye-opener; Earth Mother in waiting.

Don’t have much of an opinion on Simon. He really hasn’t been shown much; more at the Farm I think and he just seemed like such a good old boy then. The actor who plays Simon must be quite busy a lot and they can’t always get him for the show.

It’s kind of funny that I like Caprica Sharon but not New Caprica Sharon. That scene of her reassuring Calley that she was okay about her and Chief and their baby was a zinger. I don’t blame Calley for losing her temper with her!

I perceive Doral as the bureaucrat with a bit of a mean streak. Isn’t he the one that gleefully declared for nuking the colonists during the uprising. I don’t see that Doral has done anything about any of his hormonal urges and maybe that’s why he’s always kind of sour… although he’s curious about love.

Caprica Sharon experienced sex first and then it turned into real love and she doesn’t need anyone else but Helo. Don’t know about the other Sharon models. Love changed Sharon, making her more human in outlook and now, so far, she’s completely invested with humans. At first she was only receptive to Helo and I got the impression she didn’t really care about the rest of humanity as long as Helo and their baby were okay. But now she’s open to and comfortable with all the SG crew.

I think Leoben began feeling a genuine connection to Kara in Flesh and Bone, over and above any directives he may have been given but now that connection has really become a fervent love and he thinks he can win her over if he just has time.

Which may a good time to bring up the kidnapping of Kara. So not good. But in some ways Leoben is emulating humans in not being particularly sensitive about getting what he wants. And he wants Kara, no doubt about it. So, in examining this bad deed on New Caprica, how was what he did worse than what Madam President did to Helo and Sharon when she kidnapped their child? If we’re going to castigate a humlon for being ruthless, how much more so we should condemn a human for the same ruthless behavior when the human, at least, should have known better. It seems the humlons have learned from humans the phrase that, to some people, excuses anything: “You do what you gotta' do.”

We know the humlons can’t reproduce with each other, but can they physically have sex with one another? If they can, it must be without experiencing emotions of love, only physical release, and that’s why they want the contact with real humans. But you never see the humlons interacting in a way that seems affectionate to each other.

One other thing my daughter called to my attention because she thought it was so amusing in the way it depicted humlon naiveté, for want of a better word. Poor Cavil had been downloaded after being shot at the aborted execution site and was complaining about how painful it had been. He said that the New Cap. human had viciously told him (not an exact quote here, but the gist of it) that she hoped it would be a long time before he could download and that he would be in pain all the while. D’Anna asked, incredulously, “She said that?!” The humlons were shocked - shocked! The very idea that humans would say something so unkind to Cavil when they had been trying to make nice there on New Caprica. It was right after that when Doral indignantly declared that they should nuke them. The ingrates.

In some ways, the Humlons are becoming more interesting than the humans. You wonder what on earth they’ll do when they “grow up”. Will they be worse? More cruel? Or will they learn moderation and the definition of compassion? Will there be a blending – or at least a working together – if they both groups find old Earth at the same time and each tries to make it their final home?

Good grief! Just looked this over. Didn’t mean to write something the length of GWTW! If you've read to the end without dozing off, I apologize!

From the Biowarfare:Ethics thread



Why would they be a hive mind? This is another of the things that Star Trek Must Take The Blame Of, with the image of the Borg as the image of a machine type intelligence.
As you say the Downloading reinforces the idea of their individuality, I believe that this is actually supremely important to the Cylons.* It appears so far, that each model Downloads into the same Model body, there does not appear to any direct sharing of personality as then what would be downloaded into the new body would be an amalgam.
Each individual "Instance" of a Cylon, is unique, because of each one has different experiences. Each "Instance" starts off with that model's, what I can only describe as a "Personality Matrix", which is different for each model. Because of slight differences in experience each Instance will start diverging from each other of the same model (and of course, the other models). The problem is that within the completely Cylon environment, there is not a lot of "forcing conditions" so they end up different but very similar.
But as soon as they start encountering the Natural or Human Worlds, these "forcing conditions" will cause each "Instance" to diverge further from each other.
From this, I'm going to speculate 2 things.
1) The pre-rebellion Cylons were hive-minded, the Event which precipitated the rebellion, was each "facet" falling out the Hive Mind as they each became self-aware/self-realising, this causing the others to fall out, in a Cascade Failure Event.
2) Currently there is someone/thing that is currently trying to reduce/halt Cylon individuation, this is being enforced by the Boxing of particular Cylon Instances (The Nail that stands up, will be hammered down).

*But "What about Boomer?", I hear you cry, "there were two copies of her going around."
I think to the Cylons, I think they would be regarded as two different personalities, one would be fully Cylon but have the memories and knowledge of the other Instance, which would have a surface "Human" personality, with a hidden Cylon (subconscious?).
As an aside, I'm going to speculate that the memory copying occurred at the time Boomer was on her own, helping to gather together the ships into the RTFF, when coincidentally a Cylon Raider jumps in.

My vote is that Hera would always be able to recognize Sharon as her mother because of the low-level psychic bond they seemed to share during the pregnancy. Although I do think that Hera would have a special affinity perhaps for the Eights, as her 'mother' figures. But to me each individual Humlon bears a special identifier -- a wireless 'chip'? Something buried on the cellular level? -- that makes them instantly recognizable to one another on an individual basis. Everyone seemed to instantly recognize Caprica Six for instance, within a sea of Sixes, in "Downloaded," without any visual cues at all.

But expanding this a bit further -- Bruce Stewart, I agree with you that the Cylons don't necessarily have to have an actual "hive mind" to exhibit the traits they have.

Instead, I keep envisioning the humlons giving off these low-level waves to one another -- a combination of wireless datastream, psychic energy, scents, pheromones, etc., that instantly and reassuringly flow back and forth. I almost see it as more of a very low-level, almost instinctual, flow (there's that word again) that's equal parts electricity and biology, and that allows them to share dreams and visions (voluntarily, by "putting their hands in the flow" for instance, on the BaseShip, or occasionally involuntarily simply through impressions and flashes of vision in other areas of life as well -- receiving visions, as Three did, or giving them (as I think Leoben did, to Laura, in "Flesh and Bone"). I also think their preternatural ability to see and compute everything about a person in an instant leads to a sizing up of others -- and their weaknesses -- that appears almost supernatural to humans.

But this "low hum" of consciousness -- this, and that "identifier" I think each has is also why I think Three instantly recognized Sharon, too. I would also bet that Sharon is opaque, blocked, inaccessible, and this very 'blocked'ness gives her away instantly to the others as the traitor (negating any attempt to 'identify' her at all). It seems to me that Sharon's firewalled, and they see nothing coming from her at all -- no datastream, no energy, a distressing quietness.

But I do think (and hope) they are primarily individual (which is why I was really disturbed at the RDM comment that Leoben may have recognized Kara in "A measure of salvation" because I really hated the idea of all the Leobens having a Kara thing; instead I thought it was an interesting personality evolution, almost an accident, on the part of this one Leoben who encountered her in "Flesh and Bone." But more on that over in Leoben's thread...

RainCity76, thanks for that book recommendation on "Guns, Germs and Steel." I live for that kind of 'science for the masses' thing, so am very interested to read it.

Also, incoming from the "Torn" discussion:

I've been waffling on this issue myself episode by episode. I agree with this on a partial level. Based on what we've actually witnessed thus far, my guess is that Centurions and select other footsoldier types are exactly what you say -- actually just toasters -- no consciousness, simple programming, etc.

But Raiders have been shown to be alive, and to have consciousness and emotion, and as Boomer once implied, are less intelligent and less complex emotionally than the Humlons -- as animals are to primates. The use of an animal doesn't have to imply disregard for feelings or actual enslavement, at least not to the level at which humans are shown to have done so with the Humlons. Animals have consciousness yet they are used in subservient roles to humans every day. So my take is that Raiders are much like warhorses or very smart attack dogs who basically reincarnate.

The one thing that doesn't fit for me -- that does seem cruel -- is the Cylon disregard for the Hybrid, that she "doesn't get a vote." As the live consciousness of the ship itself, the Hybrid did not want to jump. I dunno. On the one hand she's seen as almost godlike, all-knowing -- yet on the other hand, she's also seen as a babbling idiot. They did seem uncomfortable at the fact that the Hybrid dissented so strongly with them, though.

I think the Cylons themselves seem to be very uncomfortable of the hybrid's "place" in their society, for lack of a better term: she's sentient enough that she should technically get a vote, but her disconnection from reality makes it so that she most likely never bothers to voice her opinions. So the Humlons treat her as inferior, in a way, not giving her a right to vote and excusing it to themselves by saying it wouldn't matter anyway...why give her the right to speak when she would never use it?

Which would explain their unease when she objected to abandoning the sick basestar...it directly contradicts what they've taught themselves to believe.

I'm sort of pondering this: Of the 7 known humlon models, we know the number for 5 of them: 3, 4, 5, 6 and 8. If we assume that each model is an attempt to re-create themselves in their creators' image, getting closer every model and place Cavill and Simon at 7 and either 2 or 9.. (my thoughts are based on how calculatingly Doral (#4) acts and compare to Sharon (#8)).

This would leave out the first and last models, which might be boxed as failures. First and maybe second model might've been too machine-like, unhuman, or maybe #1 is the "imperious leader" kind of personality, thinking itself superior to the others. Last 3-4 models could be "hidden" sleeper agents like someone suggested. They might have been too humanlike and had an emotional breakdown or whatever "human malfunction" and then boxed.
Thought occurred to me: they were so human-like in their personality that they didn't consider themselves cylons anymore and didn't want the war in the first place, and any such sleeper agents within our RTFF will never wake up but may be smoked out due to encountering copies of them along the way.

We only know the numbers for four - Doral is a 5, not 4. And then the three female models. As far as I know the Model # for Leoben, Simon and Cavil hasn't been revealed.

I wonder if that was the first time a Hybrid ever voiced an opinion one way or the other. The Leoben model (why don't we know his number yet? Grrr) according to Six is the only one who considered the Hybrid babble worth listening to. Voicing her thoughts on the state of things wasn't the Hybrid habit and the humlons weren't used to their ship second guessing them. In that extreme situation I'm not surprised their reaction was to dismiss any objection and get out of there.

Ever since the Leobens have been holding vigials around the Hybrid's bath waiting for her to speak to them once again.

Is this from the podcast ? Because I was under the impression that the Hybrids never stop "speaking" - the Humlons simply don't pay attention since they either think its rubbish, or that they have no way of conceptualizing what the hybrid is talking about - except the Leoben models who think it is God talking to them.

I spent a couple of hours this morning reviewing the mid-season episodes of Season 3; what struck me was that the Humulons had a concept for the removal of a model from production--- the very idea of 'boxing' the D'Anna model tends to indicate to me that they've addressed a similar situation in the past, meaning that there are 6 functional models in operation, as the 7th line was D'Anna, and that its possible that the 12 model number is either exceeded [though the writers are on record denying this], or that the Last 5 may have splintered from them, and had one of their number 'boxed', but the Humulons are not comfortable with the idea of regenerating the deactivated member of 'The Final 5', as the discord it might cause in Cylon society would outweigh the benefit.

I seem to recall hearing that the closed captioning has referred to Cavil as Two, even though this has never been confirmed verbally on the show by any character.

This thread hasn't been updated in a while, but we now know that
1 - Cavil
2 - Leoban
3 - D'Anna
4 - Simon
5 - Doral
6 - is well, Six
7 - ?
8 - Sharon/Boomer
9 - ?
10 - ?
11 - ?
12 - ?

Tory, Chief, Saul and Anders slot somewhere into spots 7/9/10/11/12.

I was going to ask whether anyone thinks it's weird that most of the Cylons are played by Canadians. But the actors who play Anders, D'Anna, Cavil, Simon and maybe Tory bust my theory. Still, six of 12 ain't bad.

Rekha Sharma (Tory) is Canadian.

Aren't most characters period played by Canadians? It is filmed in Canada, after all.

A lot of the supporting cast are Canadian actors, but not all of them.

Cylon Canadians: Tory, Chief, Tigh, Six, Boomer/Sharon, Leoban and Doral.

According to IMDB, Michael Trucco (Anders) is American (at least by birth):
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0873998/