Kirsten, count me in as one of these bitter internet fans. I'm thankful for the forums to see if episodes are worth catching up on when they air on my cable channels on the weekend. Other than that, yeah, it's proving to be a habit I can break easily enough. It's the forums that are more addictive :) As bitter-internet fans, I think we came out slightly ahead of those non-internet fans that have begun to not give-a-shit since Promise since we know the reason for it such as it is. All they're left with is the "death" is being air-quoted to "death" and Promise where Clana returned with a vengance and a possibility of a death...that will do nothing but make Clark just want Lana more because he can't have her or they're separated by powers out of their control in season 7. It's the MO of the show; and since the return of Clana (and assination of every other character) out of nowhere in Promise, why should anyone think they're going to do anything different? Nothing the show is giving anyone (internet fan or not) says Clark will progress character-wise. Everything points to him longing for someone he can't have next season (especially with the rumours of contract negotiations). It's back to square one, IMO.

ETA: Do I still need spoiler tags for the death and the contract negotiations stuff?

I really don't think The CW is going to make it to year 3. They canceled Gilmore Girls.

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/...rack=crosspromo

So, they have 2 successful shows (ANTM and SV) to use to launch their new shows. 7th Heaven is canceled, going out now with a whimper instead of a bang. All their Monday comedies should be dumped based on performance and even though I enjoy Veronica Mars, based on performance, it should be dumped as well.

And even though they have TW locked into a Season 8 contract, the CW would have to find money to pay him and the studio for the show and if they couldn't make a deal for Gilmore Girls which makes them more advertising revenue, I have trouble believing they're going to find the funds to keep SV around with its dwindling ratings and increasing costs for S8. Plus, I don't think the CW ever put its heart into the WB programming. They pimp out VM like there is no tomorrow and ignore Supernatural. I've never seen any great enthusiasm for Smallville and now they are canceling two former WB shows, 7th Heaven and Gilmore Girls. I have the impression that the old network heads from the UPN refuse to acknowledge that the WB had better shows because their egos are too invested in the shows they developed for UPN which didn't make as much money or have as much name recognition as the WB. Next year all they will have left from the WB will be Smallville, Supernatural and OTH and I can see them failing to promote them properly again even though they have a lot of ratings potential. I get the sense that the UPN management in charge of The CW see the former WB shows as step children that they tolerate but would like to get rid of as soon as they can manage it so they only have shows they developed on their network.

I would agree with you Massena except that if they go to a season 7 they will be losing MR's contract, and probably one or more side characters. TW is already signed through a season 8 so they don't have to negotiate with him. And if they want to cut cost they have a rather large cast that they could chop their episodes down.

If I were the CW and I were going to go with a season 8, I would want TW, AM, and probably ED for her usual 13 episodes. AA for only a handful, and that's it. But I don't want them to go to an 8th season so I'm hoping that the CW announces that Smallville will be in its final season at the upfronts.

The actor fees aren't the only ones that go up. Everyone who has a contract will be due a raise. And the Canadian to American exchange rate isn't what it use to be. I think the show will still be very expensive to pay for and if the ratings don't go up, the finances of it might be too hard to pull off unless the CW coughs up some more money and I don't see them being motivated to hold on to WB properties which is so odd since the WB owns half of the network.

Plus, Les Moonves told his board of directors that the CW would turn a profit its first year and I have doubts that is possible. So, how long are the directors in this cut throat time on wall street going to be willing to pour money into a losing proposition?

I don't know totally how the TV business works, but one advantage The CW might have with a Smallville Season 8 is that Warner Bros., the studio that produces it, makes a lot of money from it... so, they might even be able to let another season go on for a lower licensing fee.

I think this happened a few years back with some WB-produced show (West Wing maybe?)

Smallville is licensed from DC Comics though; and who knows if DC's licensing contract goes beyond 7.

I'm not too worried about a Season 8 quality-wise because I'm sure they could get certain people to come back if they really tried. But my worry is that they'll think they'll get a S8, then do S7 and get cancelled, and we'll never get a conclusion. That's what happened to Lois & Clark - which went so far as to get a 2-year renewal at the start of L&C Season 4, only to have the network (ABC) change their minds and transfer the deal to another show.

Wouldn't the fact that the CW cancelled 2 shows mean extra money for SV and the remaining shows?

I'm hoping it means guaranteed renewal for Supernatural!

That's a big worry, all right. If they don't get S8, I hope they know it by midseason or earlier so we don't wind up with a ridiculous mess as they scramble to wrap up loose ends, or worse, a cliffhanger that can never be resolved.

And their replacement shows produced for and broadcast on YouTube with a Camcorder.

Is it possible that losing Gilmore Girls might be a wake-up call to the CW that they have to do right by their other cornerstone show, SV? Pretty much all season they've treated it like a red-headed stepchild. Might this be the smack in the face they need?

Massena1, I don't quite agree with you that the CW trying to shaft WB shows. I just don't see it.

One, I think the CW really, really wanted to keep GG (a WB show). And I think they threw as much money at the actors as they possibly could. But, considering the CW probably isn't flush with cash right now, they had to draw the line somewhere. They clearly reached a point where the CW had offered as much as they could, and the actresses just wanted more to come back. I don't know that I blame the CW for not strapping themselves out, trying to offer the actresses more cash than the network could afford.

Also, I have no doubt they'd be keeping 7H if it's ratings were stronger. They just aren't. 7H's ratings have fallen farther than just about any show on the network this year. I think the drop was, like, 40%. That's a huge ratings loss. And, given how long in the tooth the show is anyway, why shouldn't they let it go?

I'm pretty sure OTH is coming back, so that's another WB show to add to the list of those returning.

As for SPN not getting enough promotion, I kind of agree. (It's my favorite show right now, so of course I want it to get more of everything. :D ) But the CW sponsering two contests for the show is nothing to sneeze at.

As for them keeping so many of the UPN comedies, despite their low ratings, comedies are just cheaper to make than dramas, and the CW doesn't expect as much from them ratings-wise.

I don't think anybody is surprised by the GG news. The actresses have been saying they didn't want to do another season (especially since the Palladinos left). I'm sure it was more about that and less about the money angle. Seven years is a long time for any show to be on the air (hint, hint, SV).

I think it was a case where the actresses really didn't want to do it anymore, but they may have indicated (and may have even believed themselves) that they would if they were offered enough money. Then, the CW would make another offer, the actresses would think it over, and realize, "Nah, that's not enough to make me want to do this for another season." So the CW would raise their offer again. But it's possible no amount of money would've really been enough.

The reason 7th Heaven was renewed last year to begin with was not because it was a WB show; but rather, being a Spelling production, the show is owned by CBS so the licensing fee was considerably lower than it would have been for the WB. It really was just a way to pump more money into CBS.

It would be nice if Smallville got better treatment considering what it does do for the network. But these are the same people who don't want a Green Arrow spin-off because they don't want two super-hero shows on a network. Guess they missed the memo about what the #1 new show this past season was....

To be fair, they kind of crashed and burned with "Birds of Prey," but a single-superhero show would have probably done better. Without the "Mercy Reef" name, of course.

Wasn't it expensive too?

That's what I fear, as well. IIRC, Roswell learned about it's cancellation in the last half of its final season. The diff is that they were able to wrap it up to, I think, the majority of the fans satisfaction during the last half of the final season. SV, on the other hand, would seem to have much more difficulty accomplishing this. Unless, they have a plan B, C, D, etc. just in case.

That one kind of crashed and burned before it even hit the air, though. It never had a consistent showrunner (creator Laeta Kalogridis had a baby the week of upfronts if I remember correctly), DC Comics had regulations that made no sense (no Batman, yet, they used clips of Batman in the pre-show teaser), and actresses where at least one of them was a pill to work with, and another actress who gained weight with each continuing episode because she never wanted to do a series. It just was doomed.

Green Arrow, on the other hand, had a ready-made lead in Justin Hartley, and I think the character was fairly well liked, aside from the fact that he was taking away from the characters we really wanted to see on Smallville. Plus he had the following from that Aquaman pilot, which was probably downloaded more than your average weekly viewership of Veronica Mars.

Bitterswete - I am basing my impression of the CW's bias for the former UPN's programming over former WB show not only on their cancellation of 7th Heaven and Gilmore Girls, but on the relative promotion efforts put into the different programs. I am not a SN fan, but I know suffering from lack of promotion, Supernatural began paying for its own promos and gave up time from its episodes for more extensive trailers. Both Supernatural and VM are struggling shows, but SN does better than VM in the ratings yet it doesn't seem to get as much promotion as VM. And Smallville is one of the network's big hits so you would think it would get some decent promotion regularly, but we've been talking about the lack of a strong promotional push for Smallville episodes except Promise for awhile here. And maybe some might claim we're biased, except I went to the Supernatural board for the first time last week to look up their demos and I found that Supernatural fans (who I have never seen post over here with us regulars) had been talking about the lack of promotion for Progeny also.



alexias Apr 20, 2007 @ 2:15 pm Post#3552


barraqudie Apr 20, 2007 @ 2:30 pm Post#3553


My Way Apr 20, 2007 @ 3:22 pm Post#3554


To me, for fans of other shows to notice the lack of promotion for Smallville it has to be pretty obvious to casual observers. And the difference between the promotion for former WB shows vs. former UPN shows indicates a strong bias in favor of former UPN programming which hasn't performed very well and doesn't deserve the investment compared to other successful, profitable shows that are slipping and could use the help.

I remember that. Misleading!

Oh, that's not even the promo I'm talking about. When the movie people refused them the Batman Returns clips, they shot some new ones with really crappy Batman and Catwoman costumes.

I think the other reason BOP failed is, most of the episodes were just geniunely BAD. Except maybe the Aunt Becky Canary episode. Whereas Smallville is, and I think Green Arrow, would sometimes be a fun kind of bad. Like "man this wasn't too good but did you see Clark and Lex flirting?" SV still has something for most people.

I don't think we will have anything to worry about with Smallville not wrapping up. Al and Miles have said that they need to know by the middle of the season. So my guess is that they tell the network the same thing.

I also think they will allow them to wrap it up.

I forgot how bad Birds Of Prey was.

I peruse the VM board occasionally (they always seem to get the news earlier than other boards) and VM fans complain plenty about the promotion for that show, too. I think it's just natural to want your favorite show to get "more" of anything.

And I actually think the CW has done pretty well promoting SV. They promoted the premiere as one of the new networks biggest events. They promoted the heck out of "Justice." We don't even have to talk about the promotion for "Promise." Was any other episode of any other show promoted as much as "Promise" was?

Then, they pull something like failing to promote the hell out of Lynda Carters appearance. And I think the reason that was discussed even on the SPN board was because promoting Wonder Woman being on SV would seem like a natural to anyone, even those who've never seen a single ep of SV or WW.

I've peruse them too for the same reason and I've noticed that they have been very pleased by the CW's promotion of VM's episodes during the hiatus. They liked the quality and they also mentioned the frequency of the promotions. And I can't imagine they could have complained about the Fall push when Kristen Bell was basically turned into the CW's poster girl for the Fall.



That's funny you posted that because we talked a lot on this thread and the media thread about the inadequate promotion for "Justice." SDK even made some comments alluding to some disappointment that "Justice" wasn't promoted more. The CW never did a promotional poster for it. They didn't air trailers all during winter break to build up the hype the way the WB had for "Reckoning." And there were other points people discussed about how the WB had promoted "Reckoning" with more enthusiasm than the CW had "Justice." The CW basically seemed to do nothing during winter break to push the show whereas the WB filled the hiatus with promotions for the return of new episodes and "Reckoning" in particular.

Not so much - check the earlier discussion in the thread. One my my largest sources of amusement this season is that Justice had a season-high rating with much less promotion than Promise, and gave the episodes that followed a ratings boost. Just like season five, when (with decent promotion), Aqua and Cyborn were hits.

Promise, which got pimped like Lana on Lang Lang Day in Smallville, had at best average ratings, and started a ratings drop for every episode since it broadcast.

This, using network logic, we get no GA spin-off, less superhero episodes, and the rebirth of Clana.

Re: The promotion of WB vs. UPN shows - since the CW merger, management has been entirely in the hands of the Dawn Ostroff and the other old UPN bosses. The WB has more or less washed their hands of the television business, and Les Moonves (President / CEO of CBS, Dawn's Dark Lord) has pushed hard to get control of the network. That is why you see old UPN shows getting serious promotion (Verionica Mars) and old WB shows getting... less.

Source: http://pifeedback.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63310451/m/42410594

Hay we keep going down...greeeeeaaaaatttt ¬¬

So we're down, what, a million and a half viewers from earlier in the season? Not a good trend, not at all. So much for the theory that SV's core audience was loyal enough to put up with any amount of cr*p. Obviously even a healthy chunk of the core audience hit the wall at some point (and yes, I still think that point was "Promise"). Too bad-- I was hoping this episode, with the "Clark Kent, mild-mannered reporter" vibe, would be enough to get some people back. But at this point I don't think those viewers are coming back.

Glad they think it's "sure to return," but if the numbers keep falling, is there any guarantee it won't be cancelled mid-season next year?

Since this is the network that kept Veronica Mars running for at least a season longer than they should have, they really wouldn't end Smallville in mid-year.

Yeah, I think if anything, they will simply decide mid-year that season 7 will be the last. They didn't pull 7th Heaven mid year.

Its really too bad, since I think the last 2 eps have been very entertaining. But I do believe the ratings are indicative of the decision to focus on the very soapy, Clexana stuff. I just believe they were so bound and determined to tell this story, they really didn't have their finger on the pulse of audience at all. And now I think they're paying for it.

I think people just get tired of getting thrown a bone every now and then. They want consistantly good eps.

Is there a way the PTB can view this ratings drop as a result of the spoiler that one of the main four was dying in the season finale?

I think the drop of vierws is a good thing in the long urn for the show I mean S5 was brilliant because they though it was the last so if they think that S7 is the last and allow the actors to sign contracts for other projects so is obivuous that it is really it. Then I'm sure that will stop the stalling and finally deliver what they promised in 2001: a show about the coming of age for Superman and not Lanaville.
If they know that they are going to have a S8 we are going to be condemned to more Clana now with adding the superpowers and Lana's is going to be every episode on SV hospital because knowing Clark powers has placed in more danger than before and even if the idea of having Lana hurted/stabbed/bleeding/experimented/kidnappend on in 22 different ways is apealling I'm sure we already placed the better on on this boards.

Boy, the way these numbers are nosediving we may only get a half season next year. I really hope they noticed that after PROMISE they lost 600 thousand in one week and have been in a nosedive ever since.

You really can point to that episode as just turning off the general public.

What cracks me up is that they keep throwing out all that S8 mumbo jumbo, not having enough to justify it.



I know that I would love to know that every time I turn on SV, I'm going to get a good story. Sadly, that is not always the case. I've been really disappointed with this season for that precise point.



It's one thing to be about telling the story you want to tell as long as you tell it in a way that the audience can appreciate. Doing it just to do it gets pretty ridiculous.
Considering how the biggest, most watched episode of the season ("Justice") focused on everything, BUT the soap opera and AFTER that, we fell back into the Clexana/Clana fallback, I think it really IS indicative of why people are turned off and not watching.

I honestly believe that all the indicators were there from the very beginning that the Clexana triangle was going to turn people off. Ratings saw a big drop in the latter half of S5 when they started to put this thing into gear, then things were better in the first half of this season when it seemed like it wasn't going to be a triangle since Clark seemed to be moving beyond it. Then, as soon as they yank him back into it, guess what? Ratings start to slide again. I know there are about a hundred different things to consider with ratings, but it does seem to be the one big obvious. I just don't think there was ever an audience for Clark and Lex fighting over a girl.

I also think focusing away from Clark has been a big mistake. I think people were OK with it this season, at first, b/c they figured it would swing back to being about Clark. But it never really did, and its still not. And I would guess that people have gotten bored with waiting for the show to be about the young Superman-to-be.

I look at this season, and I have no clue what they were trying to do, or what the overall arc was. I think the ratings are reflecting the weariness of a fanbase who are just bored.

The declining ratings makes me wish that S6 had been the last with them following through with Clark's declaration to go for training with Jor-El after all of the phantoms had been returned/caught/whatever in "Fallout" (I think). Not that I wouldn't want him in the suit (sorta, kinda, maybe), but that would've been a reasonable follow through...to end the series with all phantoms caught and him going off to the FOS and me knowing that in the end I'll have Superman. This and/or a time jump of sorts that puts Clark coming back from the FOS. IDK...it's sounds good in my mind. No resurgence of Clana; definitely no Promise, among other things...they still could've done some of the Lexana stuff, 33.1, put the characters in place where they are to be expected, and still moved Clark on the path.

On Sweet, they're blaming the lack of Clana for the ratings drop. They figure that since "Reckoning" things have been going downhill because Lana isn't acting like Lana, she's with Lex, and no Clana.

It's funny because from where I sit, I see the resurgeance of Clana bringing down the show. If no Clana/Lexana was the reason from the ratings drop, the ratings should have recoved after "Promise" seeing as Clana came back with a vengeance. On Sweet they believe it's because Lana married Lex - that was the final straw. Lana is not a Luthor.

And they're thrilled that Clark manhandled Chloe because it proves how much he loves Lana.

Yeah, the Lexana heavy episodes actually scored better than the recent run of eps - but viewers may have been drawn in by Green Arrow and seeing Clark in hero!mode, rather than a Lana-induced mope. And of course, "Noir" was promoted with a Clana kiss.


Nope.


Yep. The lesson: don't cater to 'shippers. The least 'shippy episode of the season ("Justice") is probably going to end up the highest rated.

I'm not sure it's just about ships. Clana has happened before, to a greater degree (which is to say they actually slept together), and it didn't hurt the ratings, as I recall. What hurt the ratings this time, IMHO, is that the resurgence of Clana was unexpected, didn't come across as organic and believable, and felt like one too many turns on a hamster wheel. Basically I think they just went to that particular well one too many times. Furthermore, the way they did it made Clark look like an amoral idiot, which might well have turned off a lot of straight Superman fans. And finally, the extreme soap opera-y nature of the show recently hasn't helped.

I really think had they gone with another ship, the ratings might not have sagged as much (although I will readily concede my bias in this matter). Clana has been done and overdone to a ridiculous degree. But perhaps it's not the Clana as much as it is the feeling that our characters have somehow gotten trapped in the "Young and the Restless" universe. I don't think most viewers watch the show for soap opera-- they watch it for mythos. SOME romance isn't a bad thing, as long as it doesn't take over the show. It's when the romance takes center stage, and romantic triangles become paramount, pushing the action and mythos into the background, that the audience gets antsy.

I could certainly be wrong about this, of course. But at the least, I think we can say that ships haven't really hurt the show in the past, so the sagging ratings are probably not just a matter of "catering to shippers." IMHO, it's a matter of turning the show into a soap opera, when that's not what most of the audience really wants to see.

I don't think 'ships on their own really effect the ratings in a radical way. However, I do think having Lex and Clark fight over the same girl will, and does in the SV universe. It just always felt like a huge mistake to me, and as I said before, I really don't believe there was ever an audience for it. You take a situation where you make all 3 of your most prominent characters look bad, and pathetic, and whiney, and indecisive, and desperate, etc. And at one time or another, all the participants of Clexana have looked those things. Its just really a gigantic DRAG! I can't think of a better word for it. I don't think its even a matter of Clana or Lexana. I think its a matter of choose one and commit to it you Morons!

But even bigger then that, I just don't think you were going to have a successful season with a "...and guest starring, Clark Kent". It was a stupid decision, IMO. Now they're paying the price for it. You can only stall for so long, and there are only so many merry-go-round rides people are willing to go along for. Diehards will stick, but when the casual viewer starts frittering away more and more, I'm not sure how you get them back.

Nzs - What's funny is that if the ratings had gone up for "Noir" , Clana fans would have likely taken credit for it because there was a Clana kiss in the trailer.

I do think the behavior of Clark, Lex, Chloe and Martha in "Promise" disappointed a lot of people, especially some Superman fans who want him to have the highest morals, and dampened interest in the show. The ratings have declined since Promise in overall viewers and in 18-34 (except for a slight peak up for Progeny) so I do think the audience's attachment to the characters is waning a bit. I also think "Noir" was not a sweeps episode. As I said in the episode review thread, it seemed more like an October episode when light filler is expected. In comparison to "Lost" and "Heroes", SV just isnt' amping up the tension enough to compete with everything else on Thursday.

And I will say that I thought yesterday was a tough day because of the two hour Grey's Anatomy. With so much good programming on Thursdays, a lot of people have to record shows to watch later. We know Smallville is heavily tivo'd so it wouldn't surprise me if a some people who might have watched Smallville after Grey's was over instead of October Road, just went to bed after the second hour of Grey's yesterday instead thereby costing it some ratings.

I didn't say "don't have any 'ships"; I said "don't cater to 'shippers." IE: don't let a fanbase nudge you into letting over-emphasis on one pairing wreck the show.

But I'm biased too: SV has yet to produce a sustained, interesting romantic relationship; it's not their strength.

I'm actually surprised the eye candy(TW in a wifebeater) didn't bring in more viewers.

Interesting you bring that up, Massena. On Sweet, they were complaining that the Clana kiss was too chaste. They wanted to see the usual Clana/KrisTom 'more involved' kissing instead of a kiss like the one in "Vessel".

Pretty he was, and you can tell he's been working out, but still no McDreamy. (hate the name "wifebeater" - the symbolism. Off topic I know - sorry, but honestly....)

I'm sorry but there's tons of shows with eye candy. Grey's Anatomy, Heroes, Lost, etc. You can't float just on eye candy.

It doesn't help that I watched last night's SPN and Dean did something I don't think SV!Clark can do by himself anymore: he chose the "heroic" path even though it meant giving up everything including dun, dun, dun a pretty brunette and he did it by himself. Dean just kicked Clark's ass. A ton of people on my flist were so disappointed with Clark due to Labyrinth. A regular guy totally showed up Superman .

I know, but I just thought that maybe for just this one episode women would watch out of guilty pleasure. Not because of good plot, chraracters, stuff like that.

Better yet, Jason showed up Superman! :)