TWoP Forums > 4-10: "Clip Show"/"Shaniagans" 2005.11.24

Full Version: 4-10: "Clip Show"/"Shaniagans" 2005.11.24

TWoP Forums > Current TWoP Shows > The Apprentice > The Apprentice General Gabbery

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Nutjob

Nov 27, 2005 @ 6:51 pm

Personally, I think the viewpoint on the win for RnR and loss for Alla and the Pussycats can be skewed either way:

1. Alla and Co. only lost by 5 calls, so RnR couldn't have been that much better. If they hadn't gotten their megaphones stolen and had used their resources better, they would have won by a landslide.

2. RnR won by 5 calls despite the fact that Alla was basically calling the number for everyone she saw on the street. If she hadn't been doing that, which really doesn't seem fair, then RnR would have won by a much larger margin.

All in all, I think both teams did things that could have been considered questionable, but which gave them an obvious boost in calls. So the 5 call margin was actually, IMO, a pretty accurate indicator of how the task went.

nodoze

Nov 27, 2005 @ 7:07 pm

It was still a loss, and someone has to be fired, but it seems to me that Trump and the Viceroys should have some way of distinguishing between major and minor losses other than firing multiple team members for major losses. [/quote]
IMO, Sheniagans was a major loss for Alla and a major victory for Randal because Alla started out with more resources. She started out with twice the staff as Randal and everyone on her team was able-bodied in contrast to Rebecca, who was on crutches. But Randal won anyway despite the fact that the odds were initially against him.

I don't think the megaphone thing was decisive----Trump mentioned that the city-wide deployment of temps gave Randal the leading edge----but it sure was funny and showed that Randal is quick enough to seize the moment and take advantage of a competitor's mistake, which is a very good quality to have in a competitive business environment.

I doubt that, given the tight time frame of the tasks, the teams have time to prepare purchase orders [for the megaphones]. [/quote]
The whole order number business takes about two seconds. All Alla's team had to do is give the supplier some arbitrary purchase order number over the phone, or get the supplier's order number that shows up automatically on the supplier's computer when the order is keyed in, or else is imprinted on the supplier's order pad. Alla should have seen to it that (1) her team had some reliable confirmation and (2) that the store was instructed to confirm the order number before releasing the megaphones to anybody.

Captain Tact II

Nov 27, 2005 @ 7:39 pm

Not sure if this would've violated the spirit and/or letter of Trump's Laws (added below) nut could the teams have hired temps to just sit in the suite and call the number time after time and give names and addresses from the phone book? Sure, it's dirty pool but it might have worked out well (I can see 10 people being able to place 1,000 calls in the time alloted).

Trump's 1st Law - Gold plate everything. Except gold. Cover that in platinum.
Trump's 2nd Law - Win. At all costs.
Trump's 3rd Law - A head can neither gain, nor lose hair. Hair can only be combed from one place to another.

2ys4me

Nov 27, 2005 @ 7:52 pm

The R&R spent the majority of their time being executives on this task:

They outlined the objectives, decided what was needed to achieve them, obtained those items(megaphones and people), then over saw the operation.

Alla and her Allaphants were more into activity oriented moments:

Alla had the Allaphants decide what was needed, semi obtained those items, then activly participated in overseeing field activity.

R&R held a great meeting with their team for instructions, then it was pretty much hands off, who knew what most of them were doing? Alla however kept her group close and hands on, while she and the Allaphants got in there and "sold" as well.

Makes you wonder what a combo of the R&R first meeting with the team of workers, added with Alla's oversight in the field would have accomplished.

As to the big caper, I feel cheated. No film at 9:00? This was supposed to be the episode of confrontation, yet CE and Excel just ....

I feel like Glenn Close: I won't be IGNORED

tjmor

Nov 27, 2005 @ 7:57 pm

If Donald Trump wanted to buy some rare marble for a lobby and knew that his competitor also wanted the same marble but had not yet placed a purchase order with the supplier, I bet Donald would buy that marble from under his competitor's nose, just like Randal took the megaphones from under Alla's nose.[/quote]

Sure, it would have been the same if Trump impersonated that competitor, just like Randal and Rebecca did.

Roark13579

Nov 27, 2005 @ 8:14 pm

I must ask this: there were a total of 10 bullhorns in all of New York City? Really? Best Buy didn't have any?[/quote]
I can't prove it, but I've gotten the impression ever since the first season of this show that the teams are fairly limited in where they can shop and sell. We've seen them "choose" locations to hock stuff on the street, which I'm pretty sure would be illegal without a permit, so I've always assumed they're really given a few pre-selected and -permitted places to choose from. With vendors, the more the show can control where they go to buy things, the more it can charge those vendors for advertising. My guess is that they are given a handful of vendors they can use for each task, which have been chosen by the producers and appearance fees arranged in advance, and Radio Shack was the 'technology' vendor on this task.

But that's not the way business works. There is no "tie" in a business setting; you either beat your competition or you don't, and if you don't, you don't survive.[/quote]
I'd say just the opposite: it's quite common for two or more businesses to both profit and thrive in competition with each other without anyone getting 'beat.' I'm "tied" with several of my competitors (or even "losing" to some of them), and that's not a problem at all, as long as my own business is doing well. That's one reason this game doesn't reflect a true business environment as much as we might like it to. In real life, Walmart and Target can both have record-setting profits this quarter, but in this game, there has to be a winner and a loser each week, no matter how well or poorly the teams do.

DeepInTheHeart

Nov 27, 2005 @ 8:24 pm

There is no "tie" in a business setting; you either beat your competition or you don't, and if you don't, you don't survive.[/quote]
I think Pepsi would disagree with you. There's lots of room for more than one brand or company within a niche.[/quote]

I agree with both points of view. As to the second thought, in an ongoing market, there is lots of room for continuing competition. However, when "winning" consists of a single test -- as in an election or in a bidding competition -- close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. See Florida, 25 electoral votes, Presidential Election, 2000 C.E.

CheekyCricket

Nov 27, 2005 @ 8:29 pm

IMO, Sheniagans was a major loss for Alla and a major victory for Randal because Alla started out with more resources. She started out with twice the staff as Randal and everyone on her team was able-bodied in contrast to Rebecca, who was on crutches. But Randal won anyway despite the fact that the odds were initially against him[/quote]
Twice the staff would be four team members, not three; I'm not sure how exactly to express it, but saying that Randal had two-thirds of Alla's team sounds better to me. That point, I'll grant. I don't think the fact that Rebecca is on crutches is a factor that gives Randal extra credit, or at least it shouldn't be considered a factor; otherwise, if the Apprentice staff believed her injury would be a continuing liability to the other contestants on her team, they should have asked her to leave the competition early on. Though Trump's mention of her broken ankle in the boardroom made me wonder if this is a reason he's seemed to go easier on her than on many of the other candidates.

I'm still bothered by the fact that the first instruction on the task dossier specifies that "each team will 'wrap' various objects and post vinyl signage around the city, yet the "wrapping" portion of the task was not factored into the judging. So why include it at all? All in all, a thoroughly banal task, in my opinion, especially for the task that determines the final four. But, then again, the M-Azing bar promotion occupied the same place in the second season, and that was almost as uninspiring.

DeepInTheHeart

Nov 27, 2005 @ 8:42 pm

I'm still bothered by the fact that the first instruction on the task dossier specifies that "each team will 'wrap' various objects and post vinyl signage around the city, yet the "wrapping" portion of the task was not factored into the judging. So why include it at all?[/quote]Because the task was poorly designed. "Wrapping" people with signboards is not "wrapping." Putting one poster per horse carriage is not "wrapping." At a minimum, the dossier might have required something more like, "covering at least one inanimate object with the advertising material." The only things that were "wrapped" were the "pre-wrapped" vans.

nodoze

Nov 27, 2005 @ 8:42 pm

Twice the staff would be four team members, not three; [/quote]
Alla had two people on her staff, Randal had one. Two is twice one, so Alla had twice the manpower on her staff. I don't really understand why this is difficult.

I don't think the fact that Rebecca is on crutches is a factor that gives Randal extra credit,[/quote]
Being on crutches with a sprained/broken ankle is a major, major, major impediment to getting around, and anybody who ever has spent time on crutches waiting for a leg to heal knows this. It takes at least twice as long to do anything or get anywhere. Getting in and out of cars is a real pain. You can't carry things or use both arms or your crutches will fall out from under you. So not only did Randal have to deal with having half the staff that Alla did, but his staff was not nearly as mobile and able-bodied as Alla's. Randal was indeed at a real disadvantage at the start of this task.

PoliVamp

Nov 27, 2005 @ 9:01 pm

The only thing I didn't like about this episode is that it pretty much tells us how doomed poor Felisha is. I think she will be the first fired, for some stupid 'You've studied too much' reason.

Other than that, I think the show has done a good job of giving the strengths/weaknesses that could cause the others to be hired/fired.

Randal: Strong leader, charismatic, but lacking in creativity

Rebecca: Intense, passionate, but isn't as flashy as others in accomplishments (0-2 as PM doesn't help)

Alla: Smart, cunning, but might be seen as too divisive a figure

nodoze

Nov 27, 2005 @ 9:36 pm

Randal: Strong leader, charismatic, but lacking in creativity[/quote]
I would like to know what the definition of creativity is with respect to this quote. Based on Randal's resume, he has been able to creatively solve problems at the highest education levels at the finest schools. To get his degrees, he had to be considered an original and creative thinker and problem solver by the experts. In TA, he has been very creative about working successfully with other people and finding solutions to problems--- including winning the Sheniagans task when the odds were stacked against him.

IMO, creativity isn't limited to just to visual arts and music and it isn't limited to people who define themselves as "creative." It spans a wide range of human activities. Trump had to be very creative in the course of doing business to create his multi-billion dollar empire, but he might not be able to design a poster or pick a hit song if his life depended on it. End of rant.

CurryMasala

Nov 27, 2005 @ 9:41 pm

Being on crutches with a sprained/broken ankle is a major, major, major impediment to getting around[/quote]

Agreed. But it has been several weeks, and even if movement is so hard, one can still use one's brain. Rebecca has been given more than deserved sympathy for this. If it was so painful, she should have left. But not leaving and staying around should put her at the same level as other candidates. I have a sprained ankle that has taken several weeks to heal, and it is painful. However, it does not affect my work, and I am still able to use my creativity and analytical skills - provided I have them. I cannot understand how Rebecca's condition, after so many weeks, can be an impediment in the competition. She does not need to move around a lot, and can minimize that by taking over other aspects of a task. Its just that since she has nothing to offer, she just hangs around and gets sympathy for her leg. Since she has decided to stay in the competition, it is only fair that she be considered at the same level as the others.

My only problem is using her injury to justify her mediocre performance. Had Felica been injured, would she have been given this sympathy? Not really. Is that because she is not great in the boardroom, or because she is not good looking? She is still a much better performer than Rebecca. Moreover, Rebecca does not have a 9-to-5 job to go to, does not need to commute (she takes a cab), and probably sits for 70% of the tasks.

Batrochides

Nov 27, 2005 @ 9:43 pm

Sending out a platoon of sandwich-board carriers isn't particularly inventive, so I wouldn't give too much credit on R&R at the expense of CE; at least the carriage poster was an attempt at creativity. (Which, I suspect, sounded better in the planning stage than it looked in execution, as I wouldn't think that Alla would have OK'd the plan based on a photo of a carriage with the ad folded over, hanging off the back of a carriage.)

Alla and Felisha hustled to hook callers, which is what made Excel's win a squeaker instead of a likely rout. Randal and Rebecca didn't put in nearly as much effort once their gave their hirelings their instructions.

ajesquire

Nov 27, 2005 @ 9:45 pm

The more I think about this task, the more I feel that the use of either temps or the contestants to "encourage" people to call into the 800 number was entirely inappropriate.

The point was to have the "wrapped" used in such a way that IT influences people to call. The way the task was performed by both teams, it wasn't the "wrap" that was getting people to call, but the salespeople.

biakbiak

Nov 27, 2005 @ 9:59 pm

The point was to have the "wrapped" used in such a way that IT influences people to call. The way the task was performed by both teams, it wasn't the "wrap" that was getting people to call, but the salespeople.[/quote]

But that is also the thing that struck me as odd because given the time frame and that the team was apparently responsible for doing the wrapping themselves (or at the very least have it come out of their budget to do it) there wasn't enough time to do something big or different that would not look like total ass. Doing wrapping on things isn't easy if you don't have experience with it and to do anything more than what they did they would not have enough time.

nodoze

Nov 27, 2005 @ 10:18 pm

Randal and Rebecca didn't put in nearly as much effort once their gave their hirelings their instructions. [/quote]
Randal and Rebecca had to supervise 65 or so temps (probably via cell phone) at multiple locations to make sure the job was handled right and the numbers fit their projections (assuming they had projections). That requires a lot of managerial vigilance and logistics to make sure the operation is running well at each site.

I believe that the only reason Alla's team was working so hard at the end was because their other tactics failed. To get the job done they had to roll up their sleeves and do it themselves, which is not great management.

profreader

Nov 27, 2005 @ 10:20 pm

But that is also the thing that struck me as odd because given the time frame and that the team was apparently responsible for doing the wrapping themselves (or at the very least have it come out of their budget to do it) there wasn't enough time to do something big or different that would not look like total ass.[/quote]

ITA -- all through the task I kept thinking, "Where's the WRAP?" Basically it devolved into a hucksterism competition; the only thing we learned about wrapping was, it looks really bad if you don't do it right.

I felt for both teams as they tried to round up an army of temps at short notice. You'd think that in NYC it would be easy -- but having worked in the agency field, it's much harder than it appears. I agree with the idea raised early on about spending more money to hire a few hot looking people, and have their sidekicks holding cell phones ready to go.

I was glad Adam was fired though -- for some odd reason he just bugged me. Something about his teeth -- there they were ... all the time ... jumping out at me. Also, his naitivity(tm Felisha.) The way he blinky-blinked at every criticism. Time to go home.

idledandy

Nov 27, 2005 @ 10:35 pm

The point was to have the "wrapped" used in such a way that IT influences people to call. The way the task was performed by both teams, it wasn't the "wrap" that was getting people to call, but the salespeople.[/quote]
I agree completely. If the point of the task was wrapping, then it should have been based on choice of what and where to wrap. I wish they hadn't been allowed to talk to people at all. That's one reason I felt bad for Cap Edge. As godawful as those carriages looked, at least they wrapped something!

Three days later, I still hate the megaphone maneuver. For all who said CE should have left a name, to me it sounded like they did. What R&R did exploited the incompetence of the Radio Shack people. In real business, that might have made RS liable to Cap Edge, which would not have made Radio Shack very happy with Excel. No, the heist was not illegal, but it was unethical and it was poor business practice. I liked R&R a lot coming into that ep. Now I like them less.

Batrochides

Nov 27, 2005 @ 10:46 pm

And yet we come to the chicken-and-the egg-type question: did Excel win or merely "not lose".

I respectfully submit, that even with their supposed close supervision of 60 sandwich-board carriers, plus the self-starter homey in the truck (who alone was likely responsible for a significant number of callers, rather than the walking billboards) and the megaphones, R&R snagged only five more callers than Capital Edge. That is almost embarrassing.

"Management" isn't worth a crock unless it produces the results; if that was all, Adam might be second only to Randal if a task relied on desk skills. For whatever reaon, Trump has made virtually all Apprentice tasks focus on the Sell, Sell, Sell, Baby; and in that respect, R&R aren't nearly as good overall as Alla and Felisha...more importantly, I believe that Trump has favored the savvy salesperson candidate over the quietly competent but unimaginative manager. In that case, Trump may be getting worried that neither Randal nor Rebecca fit the salesman ideal the way that Bill Rancic did.

ellisbell

Nov 27, 2005 @ 10:47 pm

[Snip.]

My recollection [snip] is that the Radio Shack person simply said a man had put in the order and Rebecca turned to Randal (or vice versa) and said it must have been Adam. In which case CE didn't even give the name of the contact person for the order.

[Snip.]

As far as creativity goes, the most creative person I can remember on any of the Apprentices was Troy. I think he was a little too creative for Trump to trust him, but the point is one doesn't have to be able to design a poster or write a song to prove creativity. One has to see a challenge and come up with an unexpected solution.

That's the skill I haven't seen in Randal. I respect the fact the other contestants on the show clearly respect him. But I haven't yet seen him look at a problem and come up with a Wow! solution.

katiedid

Nov 27, 2005 @ 10:57 pm

that anonymous black guy in the van with the megaphone who was holding conversations with people in upstairs windows of their apartment making sure they were calling for free perfume samples! He showed the most "energy" and "creativity" of anyone on the show tonight! [/quote]I'm hoping someone here may have taped this episode, as it was Thanksgiving and the wine was flowing like a flood at my house, so my memory of the show is admitedly a little fuzzy, but... I distinctly recall him promising a free bottle while bullhorning out the van window, which is quite different than a sample. A typical fragrance sample is only 1/32 of an ounce. It wasn't the only time I heard the word "bottle" rather than "sample," (that I remember, heh) but the fact that Randal was so pleased with anonymous van guy's work despite the fact that he was misleading folks as to what they'd get from dialing that number really stuck out at me. Can anyone verify or correct me on that point please? I'm only feeling partially sure about that wee detail.

The reason I ask is because while I wouldn't care about a free sample, I would totally call for a free bottle.

Jaded Cat

Nov 27, 2005 @ 11:31 pm

It's true that Alla hadn't bought the megaphones yet, but R&R clearly knew that the other team were the ones who had asked Radio Shack to find as many as they could and were already on their way to pick them all up.

They didn't lie, exactly, but they definitely misrepresented themselves to RS and made it seem as if they were picking up the order on behalf of the person who'd called them on the phone. To me, their guilty body language said it all. .[/quote]

R&R asked who had called in and the RS clerk said he didn't remember. They asked if it was a man or a woman, same answer. AA&F did nothing to hold those items and RS is under no obligation to do so without some form of guarantee or payment. I doubt the teams were handed $10k cash money. Neither could have hired the temps without a credit card number or a purchase order.

I suspect this situation will never be resolved by those of us on TWOP but, in the end, it only mattered what DT thought.

Adam's name came up in the phone conversation, so clearly Radio Shack did have a name for a contact person.[/quote]

Adam's name was mentioned by R&R, not the RS people.

highlander

Nov 28, 2005 @ 12:22 am

If Alla had placed a guarantee on the megaphones, then she probably would have been given an order number or some such identification, or else Alla should have given the supplier her own purchase order number. If she did that, then Rebecca would not have been able to walk off with the megaphones without proof that she placed the order in the first place. But Alla did nothing to ensure that her team's order was protected; Alla is at fault for not ensuring that her company's interests were adequately protected from a comp[/quote]

I ordered some things from RS that they had to get from another store. They did not give me an order number nor did they take a credit card number from me. I gave them my name and that is all they wanted. When I went into the store to pick my items up, they did not even have my name on said items. They asked me what it was that was brought over from the other store, and they found them.

CE did not have a credit card that they could use. They were supposed to use cash. RS does not ask for ID when you pick up your items and they probably forgot to put Adam's name on the megaphones as they did not have my name on my order. All in all, RS thought they were giving the megaphones to people who were part of the order taking and I don't think the salesperson gave two hoots anyway.

I believe the teams were given all cash. They would need cash for the day workers (temps) as they were not going to pay them by check or credit card. They probably made a cash deal with the horse and buggy owners so they could get a discount. I doubt the horse and buggy owners would take a credit card anyway. They would lose around two and a half percent.

tjmor

Nov 28, 2005 @ 1:29 am

I think Radio Shack's ways of conducting business are not the point here. But the impersonation and pre-meditated sabotage are. Had CE had their bullhornes there may not have been the 5-call difference - I am just guessing.

highlander

Nov 28, 2005 @ 1:42 am

The interesting thing for me is that Excel had a total of 61 people working the street(not including Rebecca) and CE had 18 people working the street and they only lost by 5 phonecalls. It does not bother me that Alla was dialing for people who did not have cell phones. Randal could have done the same and Rebecca only needed to stand at a corner and do that too. I would have thought that Excel would have won by a larger margin. Perhaps the workforce slacked off and did not push for people to call.

sleazydinosaur

Nov 28, 2005 @ 3:04 am

But that's not the way business works. There is no "tie" in a business setting; you either beat your competition or you don't, and if you don't, you don't survive. A loss by five calls is just as much of a loss as one by 500 calls would have been--it's not a "victory" in any sense of the word, and had Adam, of all people, tried to claim that it was to Donald and the Viceroys, it would have been seen as downright disingenuous, and, even worse, have been considered a blatant insult to their intelligence.[/quote]

This is Donald Trump they were talking to, he had casino's that were losing money for years, and TD would always try to spin that in a positive way to the media and his partners.

I about fell out of my chair when TD said that he "commended" the other team for lying and cheating. Now if they had gone to radio shack and offered more money and got them that way, then that's one thing. But to go in and lie and say you were the one that called and ordered them, that is just beyond the pale for TD to not only condone, but to "commend". I lost some respect for the contestents themselves for not just leaving right there, I wouldn't want to do business with an individual or company that has no problem with lying and cheating.

shibori

Nov 28, 2005 @ 6:54 am

If DT is going to fire people for being inexperienced, then don't bother bringing in 22-23 year old candidates.[/quote]

Rebecca is only a year older than Adam (23 vs. 22) and Adam graduated college when he was 20, (so they've probably been in the workforce for about the same time), but IMO, there's a world of difference between the two in how they present themselves, if not in actual experience. I suspect that Adam will still present as inexperienced 10 years from now, that's a personality thing more than anything else.

Hee! I've been seeing the Shania! by Stetson posters for a while. The actual marketing seems to focused on discounters, big-box stores such as Wal-Mart, K-Mart and Target, and drugstores. [/quote]

I think they've identified their target market well. I expect this perfume will be a big hit with the Shania lovers in the West Virginia area where I grew up, and the big box marketing will make that all the more effective. So the idea of promoting it in NYC seemed misguided, but for those women in the "country" areas that love Shania that watch this show, this was probably the most relevant task since DQ for their lives.

But as someone mentioned earlier, I think that this task missed the mark right from the beginning for using a phone number. Who has to call in to get a free sample of a cheap perfume? If some homeless looking person (or Alla) handed me a cell phone with a number already dialed and told me I'd get a freebie, I certainly wouldn't give my real info, and I think most jaded NY'ers wouldn't either.

My experience when I worked chain-store retail was similar to what others have said- there's no way to mark up a product if there's a bidding war, its generally first come first serve. If someone called from another store and asked us to hold something, we took a name and held it until the end of the day, and then it went back on the floor. People often called to hold stuff and never showed to pick it up, so for a purchase like this, where the store made the effort to gather the stuff up, and it was a relatively big order of an item that doesn't sell a lot, I wouldn't have been surprised if a clerk or manager would have sold them even if they knew for sure that R&R weren't the ones who called.

When you have paying customers in front of you, you have to weigh the risk of a no-show vs. pissing off the customers who called. If you don't sell to the people in front of you when you have the items, they'll be pissed off and the others might not show and you'll lose the sale anyway.

agentnojo

Nov 28, 2005 @ 8:04 am

Let's see:

Capital Edge budgeted $1,500 for 15 people, so that's about $100 per person. They spent about $6,000 on the horse carriages, so that leaves about $2,500 of miscellaneous expenses.

Assuming Excel spent the same amount per person, and had the same miscellaneous expenses (sans the megaphones), with 60 people they would have spent $8,500. Since megaphones don't cost more than $100 a piece at Radio Shack, and they bought 9, that leaves $600 unaccounted for, which could be attributed to higher manpower costs.

So, I'd say Felisha did a decent job negotiating the manpower costs, relatively speaking.

Trader Joe

Nov 28, 2005 @ 9:16 am

bazicdancer

I don't know what Rebecca has done to make her so highly in Trump's eyes..but she basically skated through the whole season
[/quote]

I love this!!! She's such a good skater, too, that she broke her ankle!

:)

quaintirene

Nov 28, 2005 @ 9:34 am

Please note the words heist, impersonate, sabotage - aren't they lovely, especially when used on a professional resume? [/quote]

And also 'win at all costs'...

As many a CEO knows, that philosophy of business can get very expensive indeed.
I don't think either of them have done their professional reputations any real good, although they could plead heat of battle etc. (I don't think it would help, but they could try!)

Unfortunately, I don't see the Donald accepting an argument of 'we only lost by 5 phone calls'. They may not have had the megaphones or the personnel, but they had one more team member. They should have won.

lovinbob

Nov 28, 2005 @ 10:29 am

IMO, creativity isn't limited to just to visual arts and music and it isn't limited to people who define themselves as "creative." [/quote] I totally agree with this statement. There are all kinds of creativity, and I'm nto sure what Randall has done or hasn't done to give this impression. I don't think you can be as highly accomplished as he is in his life, and as successful (and well-liked) among his competitors on the show, without employing some serious creativity in thinking, in people-management, etc.

As far as bullhorn-gate: I would love to hear Trump, Bill and Carolyn talk a little bit more about why they were okay with this ethics of this. But I think more than anything, what they were applauding was the hunger, the "fire in the belly" (tm Bill Rancic) that R&R were demonstrating. And that's why this show was, from start to finish, more entertaining to me than any this season. It reminded me of the pedicab task from season one, when the contestants really seemed to want to win the task (as opposed to avoiding getting fired), functioned as a cohesive unit, and had fun with what they were doing.

benrod1

Nov 28, 2005 @ 11:02 am

One reason that I dont mind the megagate is that when you consider the circumstances of the purchase, both groups got the idea for megaphones independantly, both also found that only Radio Shack had them currently in stock, CE, in effect, was trying to lock up all the available supply of megaphones and deny them to Excel, thereby screwing their competitor in the process. All CE needed to do was send one person down to the store to wait on the arrival of the stock, there was no reason for all of them to pile into a cab to pick them up. It was their bad luck that Excel caught on to what they were doing and did to them what they were trying to do to Excel. That's why Trump had no problem with it. If competitor is trying to screw you and you get wind of it and find a way to screw them first, then better for you. Randal would have definitely been fired if Trump found out what CE had done and that Randal knew about it and did nothing to either prevent it or capitalize on it.

FuManchu

Nov 28, 2005 @ 11:12 am

Regarding the recap episode: I'm not surprised Felisha had an answer all prepared regarding the shape of the brochure. After all, the one that immediately springs to mind is "Because I saw Kendra do something similar last season."

highlander

Nov 28, 2005 @ 11:43 am

"Because I saw Kendra do something similar last season."[/quote]

S3 wasn't even finished when S4 was being filmed so Felisha would not have known about Kendra.

nodoze

Nov 28, 2005 @ 11:46 am

CE, in effect, was trying to lock up all the available supply of megaphones and deny them to Excel, thereby screwing their competitor in the process. ...It was their bad luck that Excel caught on to what they were doing and did to them what they were trying to do to Excel. [/quote]
I totally agree with the above analysis. Alla tried to corner the entire market on megaphones but Randal prevented it. She drew first blood in "Megaphonegate" but then unwisely left herself wide open for a counter attack. If Randal did not seize his opportunity, he would have been a total wimp. But Randal is not a wimp; he did the right thing under the circumstance for his company and for himself.

CE didn't walk away empty handed, they did get the one remaining megaphone, which was one more than they planned to leave for Excel.

I took it that CE was just trying to get as many megaphones as they had employees, not that they were trying to deny Excel. [/quote]
IMO their initial thoughts may have been only about supplying their troups, but the supply of megaphones was severly limited. Alla is an experienced businesswoman in a competitive field and she knew that every megaphone CE could get was one less megaphone available to Excel. If CE bought all the available megaphones then Excel couldn't buy any, giving CE another competitive advantage. Alla is not stupid or naive.

blackwing

Nov 28, 2005 @ 11:59 am

Alla tried to corner the entire market on megaphones but Randal prevented it... CE didn't walk away empty handed, they did get the one remaining megaphone, which was one more than they planned to leave for Excel.[/quote]I'm not sure if I agree with this interpretation. I see nothing wrong with Alla trying to get all the megaphones she wanted. Her idea was to "wrap" people and have them carry megaphones. There was absolutely no way that she would have known that Randal and Rebecca came up with the exact same idea at pretty much the same time. I don't think when she ordered the 10 megaphones that she was doing so in order to deny them to Excel. That would have been a side effect, but I think her first priority was trying to get them for her own people. If I was concentrating on doing this task, what I was planning on leaving for Excel would have been the furthest thing from my mind.

I don't fully understand why Rebecca didn't buy all 10. I think she said something like the last one is on display. Did she not want to wait for them to take it from the window? I don't think she did so in order to leave Capital Edge a bone and say, see, we left you one. I think she was just trying to get out as quickly as possible.

Once the electronic megaphones were gone, why didn't anyone try to use those good old fashioned large cone-shaped cardboard/plastic manual megaphones? You know, the ones that the guy cheerleaders always have at football games. Would have been more effective than just shouting. And they could have "wrapped" them with a picture of Shania's face and perfume bottle.

Nutjob

Nov 28, 2005 @ 12:03 pm

highlander

Nov 28, 2005 @ 12:15 pm

Exactly. Rebecca was afraid to stay in RS any more than she had to and she probably realized if CE came into the store before she paid that CE would claim to RS that they orderd the megaphones and therefore CE would get them. She wasn't leaving one for CE out of the goodness of her heart but she wanted to avoid having CE come there while Excel was still there. Rebecca also bought the "smaller ones" as she called them and perhaps those were the type that cheerleaders use.

nodoze

Nov 28, 2005 @ 12:31 pm

I see nothing wrong with Alla trying to get all the megaphones she wanted.[/quote]
I see nothing wrong with Randal trying to get all the megaphones he wanted.

Alla is not stupid or naive (sorry if I am repeating this). When she learned that megaphones were in short supply she immediately knew that every megaphone she bought meant one less for Excel. And so she decided to buy them all. She got greedy but didn't protect her flank from the competitor she was screwing out of a scare resource. Good for Randal, too bad for Alla in this episode.

CheekyCricket

Nov 28, 2005 @ 12:39 pm

Adam's name came up in the phone conversation, so clearly Radio Shack did have a name for a contact person.

Adam's name was mentioned by R&R, not the RS people.[/quote] [/quote]
There would have been only one Radio Shack employee on the phone, and we have no way of knowing whether that's the same employee who took the order, or whether he/she has the ordering information in front of them. Conceivably, he or she could have just come in for their shift, and could have heard something about a large megaphone order without knowing the specifics, and could have then checked with the other staff. Without hearing the conversation on the other end of the line, it's hard to say that Capital Edge did or did not leave a name. The one thing I noticed when watching the scene again was that when Capital Edge arrived at Radio Shack, the staffer said something like "Oh, you picked those up earlier." That tells me that at some point, Excel misrepresented themselves as working with the person who ordered the megaphones, even if it was not a direct lie, but more along the lines of letting the Radio Shack staffers believe they worked with Capital Edge.

Greatbear

Nov 28, 2005 @ 1:45 pm

expect this perfume will be a big hit with the Shania lovers in the West Virginia area where I grew up, and the big box marketing will make that all the more effective. So the idea of promoting it in NYC seemed misguided, but for those women in the "country" areas that love Shania that watch this show, this was probably the most relevant task since DQ for their lives.
[/quote]

The point of the corporate-sponsored tasks (which is to say, nearly all of the tasks this season) isn't necessarily limited to just promoting the product in NYC. Companies sign on to shows like the Apprentice because they expect an hour of national prime television in which their product is mentioned repeatedly. Most companies would probably kill for that kind of exposure for a new product.

Maybe Eau de Shania won't be a top selling perfume at Sax Fifth Avenue, but the people at Coty know that people in West Virginia, Arkansas, Oklahoma, etc, watch the show, too.

Susan StoHelit

Nov 28, 2005 @ 1:49 pm

I don't think the Radio Shack people had to be lied to - obviously those megaphones aren't a popular item, they don't get a lot of calls for them. So when someone calls or comes in for megaphones, I can easily see them making the assumption that this is the same person who was looking for them earlier.

CheekyCricket

Nov 28, 2005 @ 1:53 pm

That's reasonable for most circumstances, but that's not how it fell out. Randal and Rebecca presented themselves as "colleagues" (think that was the term) of the person who ordered the microphones.

katarzyna

Nov 28, 2005 @ 1:54 pm

I don't think when she ordered the 10 megaphones that she was doing so in order to deny them to Excel. That would have been a side effect, but I think her first priority was trying to get them for her own people.[/quote]
I agree--but I think it was the same situation with R&R. They were just trying to get megaphones--they weren't trying to deny Alla & Co the use of megaphones, either. There was only an issue because there was a shortage, and once the teams found out there was a shortage, they should have hustled if they really wanted the megaphones.

Jacob

Nov 28, 2005 @ 2:42 pm

Please make sure that you're contributing to the conversation, rather than simply repeating a previous point -- how many possible fresh new angles can there be on this situation?

Fluffy Malone

Nov 28, 2005 @ 2:49 pm

I would say Randal played dirtier, that's why he won. Alla was smarter by reserving the horns earlier - why didn't the Rob n' Run team think of the horns earlier than Alla?[/quote]

One reason could be that Alla had more people working on her team. Also, based on what the Radio Shack employee said, it was a man who called (Adam), not a woman so we don't know who came up with idea for megaphones and I'm not willing to automatically give that credit to Alla or use it as an indicator of her intelligence. So if Alla and Felicia, let's just say, are working on all of the same things that Randal and Rebecca are, then Alla has Adam to work on other things like the megaphones that Randal and Rebecca are forced to address later.

I don't think it's any weakness on Randal and Rebecca's part that they didn't get around to the megaphones until later due to lack of a third person to help with extra tasks like that, and the fact that I really don't see how anyone could predict there would be a shortage of megaphones in the city. That was surprising to me.

I have a sprained ankle that has taken several weeks to heal, and it is painful. However, it does not affect my work, and I am still able to use my creativity and analytical skills - provided I have them. I cannot understand how Rebecca's condition, after so many weeks, can be an impediment in the competition. She does not need to move around a lot, and can minimize that by taking over other aspects of a task.[/quote]

Rebecca broke her ankle rather than sprained it, and in this task she specifically did need to be mobile as Trump described it as a 'street task.' I agree that I don't think her ankle needs to be brought up on every task, and I thought it was really weird that Clay mentioned it in his cab ride as a reason she would fail, but in this task I think it was actually a hinderance.

happycamper

Nov 28, 2005 @ 3:07 pm

As a former Radio Shack employee, I was amused when the editing made it seem that Radio Shack is the end-all be-all source for megaphones anywhere. Any decent sporting goods store, such as the ones the Apprentices worked for a couple tasks ago, carries megaphones. Morons.

I don't fully understand why Rebecca didn't buy all 10. I think she said something like the last one is on display. Did she not want to wait for them to take it from the window? I don't think she did so in order to leave Capital Edge a bone and say, see, we left you one. I think she was just trying to get out as quickly as possible.[/quote]I agree with you. Whenever Radio Shack sells the display model of anything, we're supposed to attach a "premium warranty" that doubles the warranty of the product. To apply the warranty, we have to take down the customer's name and address to add it to our warranty system. I could see why Rebecca would rather not deal with the display model if she was pressed for time.

As for MegaphoneGate, I can see why people think RnR were in the wrong, espcially considering the way we saw the whole thing go down. With RnR's direct competitors being the victims, we saw the whole thing play out as a game, a game where RnR "played dirty". But it was never RnR's intent to screw Team Alla; their intent was to buy megaphones. Had we found out that it was some other customer outside the show who placed the order (a plausible scenario considering the Radio Shack employee didn't know who placed the order), that outside customer would probably have been angry at RnR for taking their order. But moreso, that customer would have be furious at Radio Shack for giving their order to someone else. Because there is no way for RnR to have known that there was a big order on megaphones unless Radio Shack let the information about that order slip. Radio Shack shouldn't have let that info slip; it's their screw-up, not Randal and Rebecca's.

heebiejeebie

Nov 28, 2005 @ 3:32 pm

Personally, in addition to whatever marketing idea my team came up with, I'd have slipped an email out to everybody I knew that morning before we went out, asking them to call the number and get everyone they know to call the number. Wonder if that would have been allowed or if someone could have gotten busted for "cheating" if they did something like that.[/quote]

It's been mentioned on the boards during past seasons that this type of thing (using personal contacts) is forbidden in the show rules. That's why the contestants have to use special cell phones, for instance, to prevent them from calling people they know.[/quote]

Screw the people I know. I doubt I know anyone who would actually care. Let alone call. But I do think the underlying thought works extremely well as we know they do have computer access in other tasks. And have cash to get online if need be. Simply posting the number on Shania Twain message boards /newsgroups might garner a thousand or so calls. I don't see that being against the rules as email adverts were allowed on other tasks. I assume such message boards exist.

CheekyCricket

Nov 28, 2005 @ 3:46 pm

The task dossier (included in the weekly summary on the Yahoo! site) stated that "each team will design advertising materials to be turned into 'wrap'" and that the "advertising materials produced for you by the wrap company are the ONLY advertising materials you are allowed to use." Posting to a fan message board could be construed as an advertising strategy, and as such, it could be outside the guidelines for the task, since it makes use of materials other than the wrap crap. A team might be able to spin the situation otherwise, but that could easily backfire.

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