I'd be happy if a winner was simply qualified. I think everything else is a bonus.

Absolutely NOT. Indecisive, whiny, rude, lacking major leadership skills.

Who cares if she's eye candy.

NEXT.

Well this year we have the possibility to have one of two Asian winners so it should be interesting to see how it all plays out.

The only race thing I'm interested in seeing played out currently will be with Muna. Especially after the cleaning deal. It was just awkward enough to raise a flag for me, but I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

I think we can throw James out for winning. If he's really as hyperactive as he seemed on that bus tour, he won't make it to the end, he'll be deemed "unmanagable" at some point and cobra'd.

As for the Muna thing, it didn't raise any eyebrows from me at the time, but reading reactions on the forums made me think twice about it. It wasn't TOO bad, but definately sketchy.

I still don't perceive it as sketchy. The camp was gross and the girl is not: She just wanted to clean!

Word. Besides, Muna was not the only one cleaning. I think Kristine, Angela, and one of the Jen/Amie twins (I still cannot tell them apart) or both did their share of cleaning as well. One thing that made Muna stand out is that she was vocal about it, and they weren't. Or it was the editing crew who decided to show Muna vocalizing her disgust, and not the rest of the team.

No the sketchy thing was how Angela said, "You're making Jamaica proud" or something to that effect. Then Muna's reaction of, "we may be poor, but we're clean" seems to mean that Muna took Angela's comment in a very specific way.

It's kind of like when Craig from S3 (street smarts) was shown polishing his shoes. Nothing harmful, probably no foul intentions, but still... a little sketchy. It was just an odd exchange, on the surface it was very cute and funny, but when you think about it too long it bugs.

Woo, I missed that! Okay, a little sketchy, then.

Angela said that? The Olympian? I totally missed it. StickyKeys, thanks for pointing it out. I take back what I said before about not seing anything sketchy here.

That still doesn't seem all that sketchy, though. If I (being white) started cleaning up, probably muttering something about how where I come from pigs wouldn't live like this, and someone said, "you're doing Illinois proud," there certainly wouldn't be any racial component to it. Unless there's some sort of "Jamaican cleaning lady" stereotype that I'm not aware of, it seems like a compliment.

Granted, I never would have said what Angela did, precisely because of what's happened: in 2007, any time you show awareness of a person's heritage, background, or even nationality, you're going to be scrutinized for ill will. I have a filter on my speech that most reality TV contestants seem not to have, so I just wouldn't go there, at all. But I hope it's still possible for one person to notice another's ethnicity, and even mention it, without doing anything wrong.

I think that's actually the sketchy part -- of all the footage involved in cleaning the campsite, all we saw was that short, nasty bit with Muna cleaning up and cursing under her breath. That was an editing choice meant to tell a story and make a joke. Whatever actually happened that day was A) Not something we're ever going to see and B) Most likely nothing whatsoever like what we were shown.

Completely agreed. I don't know why I always forget about the editing in this show, especially with the glaring omissions from the last episode. That is what causes the discomfort, just like during the Craig thing, you can never really pin down what the intentions of showing that exact shot were. It just raises a flag.



It's a combination of "black cleaning lady/maids" stereotypes along with "Jamaicans are poor" stereotypes. And again, to specifically show Muna as the one cleaning the hardest, and then her reaction kind of sits a bit unsettled.



It's not awareness that's the problem, it's acting like you* know what you're talking about that causes issues. When you start making assumptions and statements instead of asking questions. I think anyone can make statements about anything, they just have to make sure they're not being a jerk while doing it.

Like Trump telling Carey that his suit didn't have a market, when of course it has a market, but Trump had no idea what he was talking about an it came off bigoted and kind of crude. That example's a little shaky, but I'm trying to keep it on topic people!

Uhh, this will relate to something in the next episode, I promise! ;)

*you not being you dear poster, just a general "YOU"

watch/listen to episode 4 at Yahoo

http://apprentice.tv.yahoo.com/trump/06/vi...es.html#1643435

at about 23 minutes is where you'll see the video of lovely Muna talking about how "dis-gust-in" the campsite is. (I could listen to Muna speak all day - I love her accent). You hear the "You're making Jamaica proud" comment, but it is NOT Angela's voice.

Can anyone else identify the voice? Not sure it matters, but don't pin this comment on Angela as her voice is a bit lower in pitch.

I don't think it really matters who it is/was that said it. I actually thought it was great of them to show her working hard and getting the place cleaned up, rather than the slackies (from what we saw) just complaining about it. However, I could have done without all the whinning and moaning, these are suppose to be professional people. Not only did they complain about cleaning, but they later complained about food. SPAGHETTI!!

I actually thought it was quite gross that they even had to clean up after the other team. I also thought it was great that they showed Muna working so hard. It just goes to show that not only she is a neat and clean person, but it also shows her work ethic, values, and beliefs. Maybe there was a good reason for it.

No wonder I was surprised I've missed it. I am glad it wasn't Angela. I think it was one of the "twins" (Jen or Amie - the one that was brought back to the last br), who was discussing the dirty campsite with Muna.

I wasn't bothered by the comment simply because it seemed like it was meant in a joking way. I think whoever said it meant that Muna came on a show where she was expecting to land a professional job but ended up living in a tent cleaning hair out of a shower. Which just goes to show how stupid the whole concept of tent city is this year, but thats besides the point.

I don't think there were racial undertones indicated through the comment.

Ulimately, I blame the editing department for everything. This is no exception. They just want entertainment.

I thought it was Jenn, and as for how it was meant: my vibe watching it was more in line with this discussion we're having now: "Um, did you know they're totally taping you cleaning up after white people? Have you seen this show? Do you know how that's going to go at all?"

It's why I loved the response so much: "I don't give a fuck how it's edited, this shit is disgusting!"

It made me feel closer to them both, although I recognize that this is only my personal reading of the situation, which is of course very fallible. We don't know what actually happened, but that's my read.

This is how I saw it.

The part that wasn't shown... I think Muna was telling the others that even though many Jamaicans don't live in the lap of luxury, they take pride in their homes, their cooking areas, etc. They keep things clean, dammit. I should know.

ON CAMERA, someone said "The people of Jamaica must be really proud of you," because Muna was explaining how they do the damn thing on the Caribbean island.

I didn't think it was offensive. And who cares which member of the WCC said it. It would have been better if they showed more of the convo. But they didn't.

That's it, that's all.

Honestly, I feel like this scene wasn't placed to convey any of this meaning. I think they just wanted a shot of Kinetic having to clean up after Arrow after having lived in the mansion for three weeks, and this shot of Muna, who seems very orderly and well put-together, did a good job of showing the contrast between the way Kinetic had been living previously and the way they'd be living now.

I'm now of the mind that Muna is getting the harpy entitled edit, heh.

Oh, I agree....but I don't blame the editing. Muna provides them with a full arsenal almost every damn week.

I know! She's fantastic.

I wonder about the edit we're getting of Surya. It was so close to Toral's in the self important, talk, talk, talk, but not much walk, walk, walk way. It will be interesting to see how it plays out, but I wonder if as a minority the contestants feel the need to really express who they are as they fit into their culture.

Carey definitely did and got canned for it. We saw that Derek kind of withdrew from the gay, but instead drew from his small town/white trash roots and again got canned for it.

Is the answer assimilating to Trump's perception of "class" and completely leaving your own individuality on the table? Or is it a matter of knowing when to assert yourself and when to draw back?

I just want to say that I was offended by Trumpy's actions - firing White Trash because they are White Trash? I believe that's discrimination my friends.

Trash in reference to a human being means something very close to a worthless person. I am sure this was nowhere on Dereck's resume. So, regardless of whether he lied on his resume or not, why would anyone want to hire a worthless candidate?
I think this was a "you are pushing it" joke. It wasn't funny, IMO, because it was said in the wrong place and at the wrong time. I'd cringe upon hearing it even if Trump did not fire him.

Also, as has been mentioned before, he stole the megaphones. And Carolyn is still upset with him for not bothering to check the weather, and he misspelled something on the poster that was not even required. But most importantly, he'd just been on the other side of the boardroom table. That said, I'd prefer him to be just a tiny bit more humble in the boardroom.

That she is not. Sorry. I can't stand the harpy that she is becoming.



Heh, I think I agree. Wouldn't it be class discrimination?

Well, maybe in a strict legal sense, but in practice, you can't really discriminate against white people, trashy or not. Race trumps class, every time. (Exhibit A: OJ Simpson.) I know there's reverse discrimination sometimes when it comes to scholarships and things like that, but as a white person myself, the main thing I think when I hear about another white person suing over something like that is, "Yeah, you've probably got a point, but stop being such a dink."

That she is. Sorry. I haven't seen any harpy behavior from her. I just see a woman diving into the tasks to get them done and being named as one of the stars of the team whether they win or lose.

Topic, please. The back-and-forth BS can be taken to email.

Unless it's a specific ethnic group. Irish people can say that the movie The Departed stereotypes Irish Americans, for example.

Sure, they can claim that, and it might even be true, but almost no one will care. People have been fired from jobs for using the word "niggardly," which is a Scandinavian word having nothing to do with the similarly-spelled racist epithet; but no one (except maybe Donald Trump or Notre Dame University) is going to fire you for making a joke about drunk Irishmen. Maybe on paper they should be equivalent, but in reality they just aren't.

I'm not saying there isn't reverse discrimination or prejudice against whites in some cases; just that few people get worked up over it, and that's mostly okay. It sucks in individual cases -- if you're a poor white kid with good grades who gets passed up for a scholarship because the school is filling quotas, for example -- but as a societal issue, a majority can afford to overlook things that a minority can't afford to ignore.

Trump's problem is he has such a tin ear, he's completely deaf to any of the subtext or context that gives meaning to words. I think his "appropriateness detector" is so faulty that he's had to learn some basic rules to get by, like: "referring to race in any way = BAD." So, "white trash" = FIRED.

So you're saying that some people are just uber-sensitive or might not have done their homework?

In the context of this show and specifically this ep, I think it's fair to include Christians in this minority category. The edit that Muna was given was suspicious to say the least in regards to her religion. The juxtaposition of her reading her Bible and Kristine reading her Trump book was a huge play on the battle between science (which, I know, but still) and faith that it came off as not only mocking Muna, but all Christians. It seemed to paint Muna as this fanatical fairy taler with not ties to the real world when Kristine was the one with her feet firmly planted on the ground.

It's just a long copout to try and show that Muna sucks.

"And look, she believes in God too! She's so silly!" I don't think that Muna went overboard at all and Kristine actually looked like the harpy to me in this situation (though I am biased of course, heh).

I'm with you on this StickyKeys. Kristine's reading of Trump's book, as she said, was a strategy to learn Trump's view of things, and use those views to help herself in the boardroom. Muna's reading of the Bible is probably what she does every day, because she is a religious person. However, they made it look like she was praying to God to help her win The Apprentice.

I'm not a religious person, but I have respect for religion, and I respect people praying to God to help them be a better person, cope with a problem, etc. I do not respect people praying to God to help them win a game, which is what I see professional athletes do all the time. I don't think God cares which multi-million dollar salaried athlete wins the Super Bowl/World Series/etc., and I don't think God cares which person wins The Apprentice. I think Muna would also agree with that, but it didn't appear that way from this episode.

Keep in mind that Muna was the one who said (in her interview segment during a previous episode): "I still believe that God is on our side."

WTF?

But that fool Roxanne wrote a whole book (snicker) on this subject.

I agree with you, Paul. I *am* a religious person but you may be right in the fact that athletes think they'll win if they pray. If they're praying not to be injured, I can go with that. But for a win? There are other things to worry about!

Anyone who keeps playing the race card, as in "I was fired from apprentice b/c I'm not white" is ridiculous and hasn't bothered to notice that out of four Apprentices, 2 are white, one has an Arabian heritage (the English guy from last year) and one is African American. That's two out of four. Fifty percent. So enough.

Okay, so two out of five. I forgot that Kelly existed. LMAO.

Sean, by American standards was white, or even better British. I think it's still a very important card to be played in the firing hand.

And one was a female.

Sean doesn't count. As a winner, that is. As far as I'm concerned, Trump was having so much fun firing people that season that he forgot what he was doing and it was too late when he realized he couldn't fire Sean because he was the only one left.


It does appear as though we're getting another white person this season. I'd be very impressed if James could figure out a way to win given that he never shuts up, and he's been tagged as a "covers his ass guy." On the other hand, I'd also say that we're probably in for another female winner, which would be a good thing. In addition to what I said about James, we have only no-shot Frank and Tim left. I still don't know enough about Tim to make a judgement, but he's the last white man left with a chance. At this point, he's been a middle of the pack performer, which should make him a target for termination sometime in the next few weeks. On the other hand, it's hard to see him getting the axe before Frank or even before James because James will obviously be the PM on the next task Arrow loses.

I guess we'll find out, but for now, I have my hopes that we'll see Stefani as the next winner.

Over on the "Presentational Problems" episode thread, Frank has been taken to task for mistaking James' nationality for Chinese as opposed to Korean. Unless James isn't a citizen, isn't his nationality American and his ethnicity, Korean?

ETA: I meant that unlike PRgal, a lot of people use "nationality" and "ethnicity" interchangeably.

Yep, so he's Korean-American.

I don't think Frank mistook James' nationality, but his ethnicity. I'm sure people have called Frankie "the Italian guy" too.

I think it's an issue of assumption and not covering your tracks. It's basically best to be as broad as possible if you don't know. Asian usually suffices, though I don't remember where in the ep Frankie commented on James' nationality.