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TWoP Forums > Current TWoP Shows > The Apprentice > The Apprentice General Gabbery

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Cree

Dec 24, 2005 @ 10:09 am

Someone earlier mentioned that minorities in higher education constantly had to prove that they didn't get where they were because of affirmative action, but that's never happened to me and no one has ever suspected I was dumb, though I do occassionally get compliments on how good my English is. [/quote]

Asians in America are viewed as the "model" minority and assumed to all be smart so I wouldn't expect anyone to assume your academic achievements come courtesy of affirmative action. I think it is an entirely different matter for Blacks.

catrina

Dec 24, 2005 @ 11:46 am

As to the question as to why there aren't more Asian males on reality TV, the answer is simple; we're far too smart to go on such shows.:) [/quote]

The lack of Asian males on ANY MB show is just appalling. Isn't Shi-Ann from Survivor the only Asian female every to be a constestant on an MB show?

I can't believe the lack of Asian male casting is because there isn't a proportional amount of applicates. (And I have *never* bought that line that there are 1 million applicants for The Apprentice. NO TV SHOW gets 1 million applicants, not even American Idol which is vastly more popular. They might get 50,000 applicants, 70,000 at the most. The best I've figured where they are getting that "1 million" from is Trump or MB is counting everyone who's ever applied for any job at a Trump-owned business as a potential "Apprentice."

I have honestly never figured out why the Asian male is completely lacking from not just regular dramatic casting (Lost aside and they only cast Daniel Dae Kim because the producers already had wanted to cast Yoon-jin Kim), but reality TV shows in general. You could probably count on TWO HANDS (maybe one) all of the Asians in a reality TV show EVER, and then on one hand all of males. And you'd probably have to start counting some really low-rated shows just to get there. Certainly not the most popular programs like the MB-ones.

I've sometimes wondered if the lack of Asian males in MB-shows might have something to do with his own Australian heritage. There's a lot of tension on Australia between the Angelos and the Asians in the same way in America there is between Mexicans/Latinos and Angelos.

auntiemame

Dec 24, 2005 @ 12:12 pm

I honestly believe that the lack of Asian males in MB shows is probably due to a small applicant pool. I know very few Asian-Americans who even watch reality TV on a regular basis, much less consider competing on it. MB shows feature a great deal of drama and controversial editing, and many of the contestants end up appearing like assholes. Many -- all, but many --- Asian-American families are socially conservative and so I could see a real reluctance to make a spectacle of yourself.

Also, maybe it's just the Asian-Americans I know, but they have extremely high standards of personal achievement that would preclude going on a TV show to win a $250K job. In some professions, like law, investment banking, and engineering, you're earning that much, and probably more, by your late 20s at least, at least in New York. If you choose medicine, you're making that much by your early 30s, usually. And those are the kinds of high-earning professions many -- not all -- Asian-Americans seek. I don't think this is a stereotype -- Asian-Americans make up a disproportionately large percentage of the enrollment of the Ivy League and other top colleges, so of course they would be putting that education to work in getting jobs.

That said,There are two Asian-American women on Project Runway (not an MB show), and they're very talented.

MiamiGuy

Dec 24, 2005 @ 5:41 pm

In defense of my Australian friends, it needs to be said again that Mark Burnett is NOT Australian. I'm not sure why everyone blames the Aussies for him.

He's from London and is now a naturalized US citizen. His outlook on life, race and everything else may have been largely shaped by his time in the British Army where he served in Northern Ireland and the Falklands, an experience which no doubt sparked his interest in the extreme sport of adventure racing which led to his starting "Eco-Challenge." But that show, at best, has a niche audience. So "Survivor" and "The Apprentice" are watered-down, mainstreamed versions of his "Eco-Challenge" formula.

Topic: To boost sagging ratings, I'm sure wanted Burnett and Trump wanted to do multiple firings/hirings from the start of the season. But, in their cultural arrogance, they never ever considered the fallout.

catrina

Dec 25, 2005 @ 10:34 pm

I could have sworn MB was Australian...maybe I'm confusing him with Rupert Murdock? In either case I'm not sure how I could have forgotten Ivana was another Asian female-on-an-MB show.

You know auntiemame I really would love to know what the statistics are on the applicant pool. What percentage is white/black/hispanic/asian/etc. I do wonder if the casting reflects the percentages somehow? Like does it take a 20% applicant pool of black candidates to be able to cast ONE or two black contestants? Or is the pool of black candidates only 1-2% of total applicants? My guess is that in sheet numbers the pool of non-white candidates is probably huge, several thousands at least. Even if there were 60,000 total applicants and only 1,000 of them were Asian or black or hispanic and the rest were white, isn't picking 1-3 "minorities" out of 1,000 still quite a diverse pull? I wonder if the real issue isn't the that minority candidates aren't "interesting" (whatever that means) but that the casting directors don't feel the majority of America will be able to "connect" with an Asian male contestant?

polka dots

Dec 26, 2005 @ 12:16 am

Isn't Shi-Ann from Survivor the only Asian female every to be a constestant on an MB show?[/quote]

You're forgetting one of the craziest Apprenti ever - Ivana. And there was that one woman in season one whose name completely eludes me right now. Started with a T? The one who thought up the phallic jet pictures.

Oh, they make me so proud to be an Asian-American woman.

Psh.

Chrisco

Dec 26, 2005 @ 1:53 am

Isn't Shi-Ann from Survivor the only Asian female every to be a constestant on an MB show?

You're forgetting one of the craziest Apprenti ever - Ivana. And there was that one woman in season one whose name completely eludes me right now. Started with a T? The one who thought up the phallic jet pictures.
[/quote]

There was an Asian-American woman on Marta:TA. Forget her name. I think she was a prosecutor/DA.

AuntieKaren

Dec 26, 2005 @ 7:56 am

Ivana. And there was that one woman in season one whose name completely eludes me right now. Started with a T?[/quote]
Tammy.

There was an Asian-American woman on Marta:TA.[/quote]
Jennifer.

There's also Raj, from TA: Donald season 2, and the lovely Toral, from TA: Donald season 4.

catrina

Dec 26, 2005 @ 12:45 pm

Ah yes Raj. I had completely forgotten about him. Although I will say both him and Tammy seem to look somewhat Angelo. They have that kind of inbetweenish which is if you didn't know they had specifically Indian ethnicity (not sure what Tammy's ethnicity was) you might think they were Hispanic. But yeah, there are more example of Asians in MB shows than I thought, at least in The Apprentice: Tammy, Raj, Ivana, Toral. I still think though that Asians are woefully underpresented in reality shows, and Asian males in particular. But my argument is losing steam.

angusgreen

Dec 27, 2005 @ 7:28 am

68 contestants

52 (76%) White
16 (24%) Non-White

9 (13%) African-American : Kwame, Omarosa, Kevin, Stacie J, Craig, Verna, Tara, Marshawn, Randal
4 (6%) Asian: Tammy, Raj, Ivana, Toral
3 (4.5%) Hispanic/Latino: Katrina, Audrey, Melissa

-----

According to the US Census

69.5% Non Hispanic White
13% Latin American/Hispanic
13% African-American (Non Latin American)
3.5% Asian-American
0.1% Other

In other words a bias on this sow against ethnic minorities and people of Latin American/Hispanic origin.

I also think the 1,000,000 figure is a joke. I think if you exaggerated the number of people who queued (but were turned away) from the open auditions, included all green ink application forms (ie those which were returned with 'Mickey Mouse' or 'Donald Trump' as the name), all the number of people who phoned the hotline for information, the Casting agencies who sent thousands of headshots and CVs you could possibly get something close to 200,000 - 250,000 (the British show got 6,000 applicants so 30,000 semi serious applicants would not be unknown).

For comparison purposes: The investment bank where I worked got about 300/400 serious applications for a graduate trainee post from Divsion One and Ivy League institutions alone --> hundreds more from foriegn institutions and a few hundred CVs from people who clearly didn't understand the requirements (we'd interview about 70/80 in all). Occasionally we'd get one or more employment agency (or CV factories as HR used to call them) sending us (unsoliticed) 2,000-3,000 CVs each - all of which went straight into the dumpster I might add.

BlakeSpeare

Dec 27, 2005 @ 11:02 am

There has been an Asian man on a Mark Burnett show - Daniel from Survivor: Amazon (the sixth season). And, as AngusGreen pointed out, there's also Raj.

Not that I'm saying that these two instances of casting Asian males makes everything ok...I'm just putting it out there.

Bedlam

Dec 27, 2005 @ 5:25 pm

Statistically, I would agree that Hispanics get the short end of the stick as far as representation on A-List reality shows (no idea as to the break-down on stuff like Fear Factor). However, I tend to feel the lack of Asians more. I am a white male, but I live in Southern California and attended a college (University of California, Irvine) where more than half of the student body was Asian. I currently live in the city with the largest Cambodian population outside of Cambodia. So just from my personal experience going to class or the mall, it seems like Asians are vastly under-represented in reality shows. However, I'm sure someone from Texas feels the lack of Hispanics a lot more. And quite possibly someone from Minnesota thinks there are too many of each, compared to what they see around town. (I will say I'd love to see an outspoken athiest on one of these shows)

I do kinda wonder if roles were reversed, would we be getting the same cries wondering if Trump only asked Rebecca if he should hire Randal because she was a woman, or since Kendra won Apprentice-3, are we past that?

After lots of thought, I see it breaking down into two groups of people - the people that see it as a competition for the Apprentice title, or people that see it as a competition for a year-long job working for Trump. If the former, Randal was right to deny Rebecca a shared title, as would a Superbowl team sharing their title after winning the game. If the latter, than Randal was an ass, comparable to Neil Armstrong demanding that Buzz Aldrin stay in the capsule and he was going to be the only one walking on the moon, even if mission control allowed for both to do so. Of course, it is actually both, but I think we think of it as one more so than the other. (personally, I think the title is meaningless, and we'll have to google to see who won Apprentice 4 by 2007, but that the year's experience and networking is priceless. YMMV)

But by and large, on the issue of race and reality shows, I have to go with one of my favorite Terry Pratchett quotes:

Just because someone's the member of an ethnic minority doesn't mean they're not a nasty, small-minded little jerk[/quote]

Randal holds no lower or higher regard in my esteem based on his race. He deserved to win. I personally think he should have suggested Rebecca be hired when Trump introduced the possibility of making this season a non-zero sum game when he seemed poised to offer the reward to two people, but that's hardly a make or break decision as I can see either side of it.

I think that Randal is a great guy.

Just like I think Omarosa is a raving lunatic.

Race has nothing to do with either of those judgements. It's perfectly possibly to like or dislike someone for traits completely irrelevant to their race. And frankly, it's ridiculous to insinuate otherwise. Just as it's ridiculous to insinuate that if someone likes or dislikes someone due to other traits, those other traits are either made up, or secondary to judging by their race.

cuibono

Dec 28, 2005 @ 12:27 am

But Rebecca was one of the weakest players this season. Randal, on the other hand, was one of the strongest players. Trump’s suggestion that Randal shares his title with one of the weakest contestants is humiliating for Randal, and degrading to his effort, performance and victory. I think that would be humiliating and degrading to any Apprentice regardless of their race. But because Randal is black, it was even worse for him.

Quiddler

Dec 29, 2005 @ 10:07 am

I’ve been holding out on entering this topic, mostly because it takes me a long time to put my thoughts together in a semi-coherent fashion. There are many great points that have been made, and can be discussed, but the one I want to address is that of unconscious racism on the part of TPTB (aka: Burnett and Trump). I found these posts to be particularly good starting points:

I wouldn't stake my life savings on this being influenced at least in part by unconscious racism, but I wouldn't rule it out, either. Natashiapierre

Sterotypes exist, they exist in every society in the world. When you are in the majority, you just don't realise it much, because it doesn't affect you. Deepta1993

No matter what we may outwardly profess, we all have stereotypes - it's a method for cognitive efficiency. And quite honestly, as long as we are aware of what stereotypes we have and challenge them regularly, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with them. It becomes a problem when we allow our stereotypes to operate unchecked. Psyche78[/quote]

As a member of the “majority” in America, (white female) I can tell you, from the “inside”, there is indeed a lot of racism still around. And that many people who are racist? Aren’t aware that they are because, as Deepta pointed out, “it doesn’t affect you.”

My parents moved us up to the Detroit suburbs from a verrrry white section of Ohio 30 years ago. (Seriously. The only minorities were the migrant workers who came through in the spring and fall.) My family can best be described as ... well, lily-white, and a more than a little racist. While I never quite held to their beliefs, neither was I was completely unaffected by my upbringing. For the longest time I did notice how many blacks were in the room vs. how many whites. I did laugh at racist jokes. And did get nervous being around “those” people.

But, as the years went by, and I interacted more and more with people of different races and backgrounds, I learned to be more accepting, and began (as Psyche stated) challenging my own beliefs. I began making a conscious effort to challenge my thoughts and feelings, and to see behind the stereotypes. To differentiate between a person's perceived threat because of their color, and their actual threat because of their behavior. To see the difference between a person being a criminal because of their color, and because of their socio-economic surroundings. (regardless of color). I’ve also been the recipient of some great conversations with several women and men of color, who have been gracious enough to answer my questions, realizing that the questions were being asked because I truly was trying to figure things out, and was honestly trying to educate myself.

I’m sure my brother doesn’t think he’s a racist when he makes sure to point out how many blacks are around. Or refers to Asians as “chinks” or “gooks”.

I’m sure that my sister doesn’t think she’s racist when she makes disparaging remarks about “Mexicans” and how the houses they build (in SoCal) are really poor quality because “that’s how they are.”

I’m sure my sister-in-law doesn’t think she’s racist when she refers to Italians as “Wops”.

I’m sure my mother didn’t think she was being racist when warning me against dating a black student in high school because (she said) the KKK would show up at our house and burn a cross in our front yard. (In an upper-middle class neighborhood.)

I’m sure that my dad didn’t think he was being racist when describing Bill Cosby as “so funny he’s almost white.” (Translation: Bill Cosby’s humor is so universal that even whitey can relate! Holla! <eyeroll>)

I’m sure that my grandma didn’t think she was being racist when once she asked me while watching tv, “What’s that nigger’s name?” (Um … Sammy Davis, Jr., Gramma. You know, one of the greatest entertainers ever in the history of the planet!?!?!?)

I’m sure our vendor didn’t think he was a racist when he referred to Eight Mile Road as a “war zone.” (for those who haven’t seen the Eminem movie, Eight Mile is the northern border of the city of Detroit. I live ½ north of it, and have yet to see tanks.)

I’m sure that a Coworker didn’t think he was being racist when he went into a long rant about how “PC” everybody has to be nowadays with regards to certain terms, like “Jap.” (My dripping-with-sarcasm response? “Yeah, ain’t it a bitch that you can’t use words like ‘spic’ or ‘kike’ anymore?” He backed down. <snerk>)

And…topic? I relate all of this personal history to point out that it is entirely possible that TPTB at The Apprentice may be unconsciously racist in their interview, casting, and decision-making processes. Trump grew up in a rich household, went to private schools. How many minorities did he grow up around? And of those in his life, how many were doormen? Or maids? Or chauffeurs? So when it comes to his own organization, there aren’t many people of color in high positions because … well, he didn’t grow up seeing them that way.

So when Stacy J is accused of being crazy? Trump believes it, because … well, that’s how “those” people are. (Besides – the pretty white girls told him it was so!) And when he begins thinking that Rebecca is as worthy as Randal? It may (may) be because, deep down, part of his brain is diminishing Randal’s accomplishments because of his color, and inflating Rebecca’s because of her startling resemblance to Wife #4.

(Though, to be fair? Even the white people are crazy on reality tv. Exhibits A, B & C: Judd, Jamie and Jonny Fairplay on Survivor.)

So, where Trump’s motivations (as convoluted as they were) for asking Randal to share the prize may not have been consciously racist, it’s not that far-fetched to believe that there may have been an unconscious component to it.

Bowmanguy

Dec 29, 2005 @ 12:07 pm

I've never been bothered by the paucity of Asian-Americans on TA. We're only 3% of the population which means that, all things being equal, out of the 1st 100 TA candidates, 3 should be Asian. Now, there've been alot less than 100 TA candidates, and yet we've already had more than 3 candidates. Now, Angusgreen has a good point when he points to how underrepresented Hispanics are, at least in comparision to blacks. The reason for that is that for a variety of reasons, there has been a huge push in TVs, movies to make sure blacks are represented, mainly IMHO to aviod charges of racism. Often this means putting blacks in positions of power, i.e. judges, police chiefs, etc., though usually the focus of the show or movie would be on the white characters. I remember at one point during the 90s, after a whole rash of movies like The Client, Primal Fear, The Rainmaker, and Presumed Innocent, commenting to a friend that if Hollywood was to be believed most judges were either black, female or both. Similarly, ever since Clueless, there's been a tendency in most shows or movies aimed at a young and/or female audience to have the white character have a black best friend, even in situations where it wouldn't make too much sense, i.e. Clark Kent in Smallville, who attends a lilly-white school in rural Kansas. I've heard similar things about Malcolm in the Middle. It got to the point that during one conversation on the phone with my sister, when she said she was going to watch Ghost Whisperer, knowing nothing about the show other than what I saw in the previews, I asked her if Jennifer Love Hewitt's best friend was "a sassy black girl." After picking her jaw up off the floor, my sister said yes. I think the producers and casting directors of TA are under the same pressure. I should add that while I've ofter been jealous of how many positive depiction of blacks there are in Hollywood compared to that of Asians or Vietnamese(who are only depicted as sadistic thugs torturing American soldiers), I can't imagine if I was black I would be happy with the situation.

Singer

Jan 13, 2006 @ 10:49 am

That was a thoughtful post, Quiddler. Your positions make complete sense to me, though my own beliefs are that Trump and Burnett are actively aware of the fact that they use stereotypical editing on the show.

Some people attempt to justify this heinous approach to editing by saying that it exists merely to drive ratings. I am not convinced by this position. I am convinced that the approach responds instead to deeply-held prejudices that you describe so clearly in your note. Regardless of its locus, the approach is a bad thing.

I also think that it would be wonderful if television moguls used the medium to create "positive stereotypes" of vilified groups, e.g., women as productive workers who are not catty toward female colleagues, blacks as articulate, cutting-edge thinkers who are not lazy or otherwise mentally unstable, other ethnic group members who exhibit the same productive qualities, etc.

I say this because many people actually believe that reality television is real and unscripted. So if negative stereotypical editing remains rife, then the medium feeds and promotes negative belief systems, instead of helping people to understand that the negative stereotypes are not accurate.

And in the end, it is a belief in those negative stereotypes that helps explain, at least to me, why wage and earnings differentials between similarly-trained white males and white women remains vast, even in 2006. The disparities are even more glaring between similarly-trained white males and ethnic workers across all cohorts. If America is to remain competitive in the global economy, this situation really needs to change. I once thought that The Apprentice might be a good place to start approaching this goal. After watching each installment of the show, I now realise that I was gravely mistaken.

Hail Eris

Mar 1, 2006 @ 1:35 pm

So now that he's hired Randal, Trump's given up all pretense of even considering another African American? Is that what's going on here?

StickyKeys

Mar 1, 2006 @ 2:13 pm

You're really going to make me watch this episode aren't you? Hee!

I do find it interesting that a lot of what was in Jacob's recap has come true. I've seen several mention of Randal being "The first African American Apprentice" speaking at several engagements and what have you. It will be very interesting to see his involvement in future shows. I do find it odd that we've seen Kelly and Bill a hundred times and no Kendra. Hmmm.

DiamondKingPin

Mar 1, 2006 @ 6:27 pm

It will be very interesting to see his involvement in future shows. I do find it odd that we've seen Kelly and Bill a hundred times and no Kendra.[/quote]

You didn't see Kendra last season since she hadn't been hired until after season 4 finished filming. Just as you won't see Randal this season since he was hired after season 5 finished filming.

cuibono

Mar 2, 2006 @ 12:30 am

So now that he's hired Randal, Trump's given up all pretense of even considering another African American? Is that what's going on here?[/quote]
At least he did hire an African American. I guess now he should hire a Hispanic, Jewish or Russian - that'll be only fair.

StickyKeys

Mar 3, 2006 @ 5:48 am

she hadn't been hired until after season 4 finished filming. [/quote]

Okay, I didn't even think about that, thanks.

I think that Trump hired the best of the season and the bonus for many of us was that he was African American. If we get a season where a racial minority is the best and they are not hired, then I'd see a fairness issue. Otherwise it's all part of the game.

Jenny O

Mar 3, 2006 @ 8:05 pm

At least he did hire an African American. I guess now he should hire a Hispanic, Jewish or Russian - that'll be only fair.[/quote]

Could be, but since he kept referring to Lenny at the end of the first show as "The Russian," I have a feeling that last one won't come to pass...

ghettofabman

Mar 5, 2006 @ 5:05 am

StickyKeys

Mar 5, 2006 @ 7:09 am

Don't forget the Hogg! Bowie from season... 1? He was awesome and bigg. The female thing concerns me because it's such a hot issue. I think Brent is just... well he'll be the new Clay for me.

I know what you mean and it's something that's always interested me. I actually think that the first plus size female we get will probably be black.

angusgreen

Mar 5, 2006 @ 9:22 am

One minority issue that really comes to mind when I think about the Apprentice is the one surrounding the representation of plus-sized candidates. I often wonder why is it that the plus-sized candidates that do appear on the show have to be shown in an oafish capacity. Also, why are there no plus-sized women on the show? I am sure there are intelligent and beautiful plus-sized women who have strong business minds and acumen. I also believe that there are plus-sized guys out there in business who have their shit together and don't act like damn fools, too.[/quote]

[Snip.] ... The winner of The Apprentice will be working in a PR role (both Bill and Kendra seem to have been doing little other than cutting the tape on Trump developments) then it makes business sense to shortlist more attractive candidates. Of course if the Apprentice (like its cousin accross the Atlantic) was a straight business show where the winner had a genuine executive or managerial level job then people weight would be irrelevant.

In any case it would be difficult to argue that Toral, Kirsten, Angie, Bowie, Jessie were more entertaining than thinner candidates such as Katrina, Ereka etc. I'm not saying that they were necessarily worse because they were heavier but that there's nothing that makes heavier candidate per se better than slimmer candidates.

highlander

Mar 5, 2006 @ 9:34 am

The woman who replaced Carolyn that one time in the boardroom was not thin at all and did not have a beautiful face, yet she had a prominent position in the Trump organization. For some reason, Trump and Burnett believe that only attractive and thin females should be candidates. I guess Trump feels he wants to look at pretty females in the boardroom and Burnett feels people will only tune in if there are many of them. When Angie was on in S3, she wasn't exactly the type of female TA normally has and I got the feeling Trump couldn't stand her. Trump will have plus sized men on because he is more interested in looking at beautiful women.

cuibono

Mar 5, 2006 @ 11:45 am

I think the very first thing that comes to mind when I see an overweight person is that he or she is unhealthy. Then the stereotype kicks in: lazy (i.e., with all the information, diets and technology that are available today, how come he/she does not care enough to get that weight under control? ). While I am intelligent enough to understand that it's not that simple, I also know that the first and often most lasting impression of a person is made in the first 20-30 seconds. It sure is unfair and probably not smart to judge people by their appearance, but ... I also think appearance does matter. I am not Trump's fan. I think most of his business lessons are a huge pile of bs, and he should not even attempt to be a role model, IMO. But if he likes people with certain looks and doesn't care for other types, I am not sure if anything can be done about it. I think I understand why there are no big people on the show. Or may be they just don't apply.

StickyKeys

Mar 5, 2006 @ 2:27 pm

I can't fully accept that out of millions of applicants (coughyeahrightcough) that there are no qualified biggies, but I will accept that Trump simply doesn't consider them at times.

ghettofabman

Mar 5, 2006 @ 3:04 pm

I can't fully accept that out of millions of applicants (coughyeahrightcough) that there are no qualified biggies, but I will accept that Trump simply doesn't consider them at times. [/quote]

I definitely agree with you on that, Sticky! I am sure that they apply, but something tells me that Trump/casting develops a bad case of the Tyra Banks syndrome and they go for the ones with "big personalities" (read: the crazies) who end up clashing with the top dog alpha pretty boys and girls on the show.

Allgeetoo

Mar 6, 2006 @ 8:35 pm

It's a reality show. A television reality show. Trump is only involved in the selection of *ahem* applicants *ahem* because they're accessories.

The Apprentice is all about The Donald and TD's applicants must reflect his exquisite **coughflashycough** taste. I'm not explaining this well, but my point is that anybody who's seen that God-awful, overly-gilded, New York apartment of his, shouldn't be surprised that his opinion of what constitutes a great applicant is a little skewed toward the "Tyra Banks Syndrome". The day that overwhelming opulence is outlawed, will be the day you'll see two Asian, African American, Hispanic, Native American French speaking, plus-sized female candidates on this show.

Hail Eris

Mar 7, 2006 @ 10:56 am

I actually think that the first plus size female we get will probably be black. [/quote]
Whoa, nellie, Sticky! Can you imagine how much work (or, heaven forbid, drama) that poor woman would have to put in before Trump so much as even looked at her? Sigh.

ghettofabman

Mar 7, 2006 @ 12:03 pm

I actually think that the first plus size female we get will probably be black.

And I want her to be drop dead gorgeous just to shut Trump up!

Allgeetoo

Mar 7, 2006 @ 5:56 pm

I actually think that the first plus size female we get will probably be black. [/quote]
And I want her to be drop dead gorgeous just to shut Trump up![/quote]

In which case, Mandisa may be available in time for the next Apprentice.

StickyKeys

Mar 14, 2006 @ 5:41 am

Hee! Can you see Mandisa on this show?

"Well Mr. Trump, Jesus died for our sins to teach us about true forgiveness and hopefully Jim, Stacey, and Vaughn will forgive me as I bring them with me into the board room. God bless you all as we prepare to throw down."

I'm already running a creative thread y'all, don't get me started.

So far this season they've been doing a good job of portraying everyone fairly. Brent has the jack@ss thing going for him, but it doesn't seem like a fatty issue as much as a sweaty cheese jack@ssy issue.

Quiddler

Mar 14, 2006 @ 8:54 am

So far this season they've been doing a good job of portraying everyone fairly. Brent has the jack@ss thing going for him, but it doesn't seem like a fatty issue as much as a sweaty cheese jack@ssy issue.

Yeah, Sticky, but as a Woman of Size, I have to say that Brent makes me cringe as much as (I'm assuming) Omarosa does you. (and well, women in general.) I mean, talk about stereotypes: a loud, obnoxious, sweaty fat person who eats 24/7! Yea for us! <eye roll> If I ate as much (and as often) as Brent apparently does, I'd weigh 100 pounds more than I do. I mean, of all the fat people out there, was Brent really the best one!? Are there no overweight business people who are normal? (Brent, Brian, Michael, etc etc etc...)

This is probably a topic better suited for another thread. But, it is related to the current topic in that I think race is just one of the stereotypes Burnett & Co. exploit for ratings.

</soapbox>

ETA... not that I'm saying sizism is on a par with racism, y'all....

clear

Mar 14, 2006 @ 9:47 am

I can't help being a bit pissed that the guys can be fat and/or ugly, but the women have to look like models.

And yeah, I was wondering about Brent's behaviour as well. If I were in this sort of situation, I'd go out of my way not to be "stereotypical fat girl". Brent seems to embrace the stereotype, not just with the eating but with being socially awkward, desperate, needy, and not too bright. And he has to know his teammates already hate him and don't respect him and this will make it worse.

ghettofabman

Mar 15, 2006 @ 3:09 am

And yeah, I was wondering about Brent's behaviour as well. If I were in this sort of situation, I'd go out of my way not to be "stereotypical fat girl". Brent seems to embrace the stereotype, not just with the eating but with being socially awkward, desperate, needy, and not too bright. And he has to know his teammates already hate him and don't respect him and this will make it worse.

I kinda disagree. Part of me believes that Brent does indeed play up the socially awkward oaf card, but the other part of me thinks that the fat thing is the only thing he doesn't play up. I think that that is more him stating the obvious. It's his teammates who play the fat card by throwing it up in viewers' faces every single time they get with their saying it every ten seconds they can (Sean) and through their body language each time they interact with him.

celestial904

Mar 15, 2006 @ 3:54 am

not that I'm saying sizism is on a par with racism, y'all....

IMHO, it is right up there with racism, sexism, heterosexism, ableism and classism.

You know, for me, I often try to not act like the "stereotypical fat person" but sometimes, if I feel like that's how everyone else is viewing me, I just go with it. Kind of like, "Yeah, I'm going to sit here and eat the way I want because you already seem to have formed an opinion of me based on my weight."

It's very obvious that Brent is, however, overcompensating and lacks any self awareness. He reminds me of a seven year old and it is so interesting how he (as another poster mentioned) talks to people and not with them. All this and he made it on the show... I am starting to wonder if he is a "plant" as some people suggest.

alphaharpy

Mar 15, 2006 @ 11:55 am

I feel like there's a difference between "sizism" and the other -isms, because in most cases you can control your size, at least to a degree, and fat/skinny is not a fundamental, integral part of who you are. I have cousins who will never be thin, but they don't have to be monstrously huge, and they can be healthy for their size. If you see Brent's "website" (because, really), you can see that he is much thinner than he was on the show. Which proves that he didn't have to be fat, he chose to be. Just like I'm choosing to be overweight when I eat pie for breakfast. Go ahead and make that choice, but understand that you don't get to choose the consequences.

Quiddler

Mar 15, 2006 @ 1:10 pm

Just like I'm choosing to be overweight when I eat pie for breakfast.

Well, there's that ... and the fact that this country doesn't have a history of lynching people for their size. Yes, we get discriminated against, and yes, we too get the "oh dear god don't let that person sit next to me" looks on the bus, and we too get our fair share of taunts shouted at us from the windows of passing cars, but I agree with alphaharpy in that it's not quite the same. (Doesn't make it hurt any less, mind you.....)

Jacob

Mar 15, 2006 @ 2:23 pm

Topic, please.

I would also ask that "sizism" be set aside for now, because it tends to lead into a a discussion of whether or not "size" makes you a minority, rather than directly discussing the issues facing minorities on the show.

protanto

May 30, 2006 @ 6:58 pm

The composition of the final teams turned out to be interesting.

svarlo

May 31, 2006 @ 9:45 pm

Lee's Team:

Lee - American Jewish man
Lenny - Russian Jewish man
Roxanne - African-American woman
Pepi - Hispanic man

Sean's Team:

Sean - English man, Palestinian heritage
Tammy - American woman, presumably Caucasian?
Andrea - American woman, presumably Caucasian?
Tarek - American man, presumably Caucasian?

Interesting, to be sure. I wonder about this as well. Sean's team is very striking and I have a theory. Much was made of Sean's experience of Washington, D.C. Being a recent immigrant, one major focus, be it conscious or subconscious, would be to find a place in society in which he can fit in. Perhaps he is subconsciously surrounding himself with people he sees as being examples of his particular image of what an "American" would be? Or perhaps it is more straightforward, and he chose solely on his perception of ability? Or maybe he chose using his perception of ability, which was influenced by his particular biases?

As far as Lee's team, Lenny was very instrumental in its construction. Did he choose based on ability? Based on a sense of ostracism? Or something less indicative of his inner workings?

Please let me hear your thoughts. I'm not saying what I believe to be true about this particular set-up, but I'm sure others' insight would be invaluable in highlighting previous behavior that could suggest what went into these decisions.

CheekyCricket

May 31, 2006 @ 10:23 pm

To me, it's interesting from an ethnic perspective. One point of note: there are apparently two candidates of Lebanese descent, Sean and Tarek, and both are on the same final team. I think it's a fluke, actually, but worth noticing.

I'd never thought of it that way yet, but in terms of casting, there is an "Underdogs United!" about Lee's team. Lee, the young guy who other candidates look down on (including some who are only a few years older than he is); Lenny the Russian, who is saddled with the "Russian gangster" image; Pepe, the Latino lawyer who was perhaps fired too soon, perhaps not; and Roxanne, the lone African-American in this season's group. I did think it was interesting that Lenny recommended Pepe immediately, since they had never worked together, and figured that it must have been due to conversations in Sequesterville. At the beginning of this season, I anticipated that Pepe would be one of the stronger candidates, and I was disappointed when his team flopped in the second task and he was fired. Pepe was in a similar position to last season's Chris, who was also fired in the second task, and who Rebecca chose for her team. (Chris went overboard to prove himself in the final task, and perhaps Pepe will, too.) Roxanne was Lee's choice, not Lenny's, and I think he chose her because they liked each other and he sees her as a strong player.

I'm not sure what to think about Sean's choices, except for Tammy, which I think was a instance of weakness, since I see her as a middling-level contestant--not weak, but not outstanding either. I think he picked people he thought were strong teammates, although in Tammy's case, he was blinded by his feelings. The flaw is that he chose people who are are independent workers and thus not inclined to share information with their coworkers. If Sean was trying to make an all-American choice, for today's United States, he'd pick a team closer to Lee's team.

marty118

May 31, 2006 @ 11:32 pm

Jose Diaz goes by the nickname of Pepi (not Pepe). He is cuban american.

Sean Yazbeck (self described "of British and Arab descent")

Tammy Trenta (self-described "Italian-American Catholic")

Tarek Saab (self described "Lebanese father, American mother")

Andrea Lake (no self description, but rumours are that it is her genetic Martian heritage that led to the coughing up blood incident, as Earth air has more oxygen than her system is used to. This would explain why a multimillionaire lives in Santa Fe, New Mexico, elevation 7,000 feet.)

protanto

Jun 2, 2006 @ 12:36 am

Based on the information about Sean's outstanding achievements that helped him get awarded with a Green Card, it is only logical to assume that he is a fighter and achiever with his eyes on the prize - the Apprentice title. I think that subconsciously surrounding himself with people he sees as being examples of his particular image of what an "American would be", as Svarlo suggests above, is possible, but somewhat too deep for him. I believe Sean chose to hire Tarek and Andrea based on his belief in their abilities. Tammy? I think she is his tool - not because she is smart or capable, but most likely because she is not smart or capable. I just don't buy the sincerity of the TV romance line coming from an Englishman. I realize that this is somewhat stereoptipical, however, the very core of the way Sean acts is so very atypical of british cultural values. I think he is playing the "stupid American" public (I've heard so many times that this is how Europians think of us) hoping that we will fall for his "love story" and vote for him. And if he doesn't win the title, he may hope for other venues (i.e., movie or other entertainment industry, PR, television, etc) to open for him.
Getting a Green Card does not make him automatically a citizen. The funny thing is that if he gets hired, the message may be: there are no capable americans, that's why we needed to hire a brit. Another funny thing is that if this happens, the Minority team will lose...
I assume I know what MB thinks about this - after all, Sean is his fellow brit. I wonder if DT had ever thought about it and what.
Whatever the outcome is, I hope it is the candidates' ability that is a deciding factor.

angusgreen

Jun 2, 2006 @ 4:50 pm

The funny thing is that if he gets hired, the message may be: there are no capable americans, that's why we needed to hire a brit.

I think that's unfair - if that was genuinely the case why put him (or Raj, Alla, Sandy or any of the other foreign born candidates from previous series) on the show? Putting candidates on the show, letting them succeed, only to eliminate them close to the end because of something that the producers knew about would be stupid and dishonest.

The reason why the US has a Green card system is to let immigrants contribute to the states - and those Green cards are damm hard to get. I was lucky in that because one side of my family settled in Fort Lee soon after the revolution I was entitled to US citizenship despite growing up in Glasgow and not visiting the US until I was 22. However, I know many friends who have had huge difficulty in getting a card.

protanto

Jun 2, 2006 @ 6:48 pm

But Raj, Alla, Lenny are americans - they've lived here for a long time, paid their taxes, built their homes, are raising their children here, they have certain social concerns and in Raj's case, political aspirations - America is their home. They have ties here. They cannot go back to their fatherland because their citizenship was taken away - there is no home back there.
Sean, on the other hand, had won/earned his Green Card, but can go back home at any time because the only tie he has here is his job (and this can change at any moment). But I do hear you, angusgreen, and think your point of view also makes sense.

Jacob

Jul 7, 2006 @ 5:24 pm

Posts deleted. Topic, please.

gapkid

Jul 10, 2006 @ 10:33 pm

Well since this is the minority relations thread and all..

After two white educated male winners, we've had a woman, an African-American and a non-citizen win. When are we going to have an Asian winner? I thought Charmaine could've won Season 5...

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