TWoP Forums > 4-8: "Store Wars" 2005.11.10

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TWoP Forums > Current TWoP Shows > The Apprentice > The Apprentice General Gabbery

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eminwf

Nov 12, 2005 @ 5:58 pm

/totally shallow comment from the Extra! Board! Room! Footage!

Brian is only 5'2".

No wonder Randal looked about two feet taller than him.

catnip

Nov 12, 2005 @ 7:02 pm

I think it's interesting that this week, Randal and Alla found themselves in similar positions -- each of them was more qualified for this particular task than their team's PM -- but they chose different approaches. Alla became de facto PM of her team, while Randal worked diligently on the tasks that he was assigned and didn't challenge his PM's authority. Alla's take-charge strategy resulted in her team doing better on the task, but Randal's strategy of working hard and not engaging in power plays may be what's making him so popular among the contestants.

CheekyCricket

Nov 12, 2005 @ 7:09 pm

This is a good point, and your occasional interruptions sound like they work well for you and your associate. It also sounds like something the two of you have agreed upon in advance. It didn't look like Alla and Clay agreed to that at all, and Clay looked annoyed and was curt when Alla interrupted. Since Alla was so instrumental in putting together the presentation, I don't understand why she didn't also do the presentation, or at least she and Clay should have done the presentation together. But since Clay was doing it, and they obviously hadn't agreed in advance that Alla would interject here and there, I thought her interruptions looked unplanned and unprofessional. [/quote]
Clay remarked in an interview that Alla had wanted to give part of the presentation, but he decided against it since he didn't want it to look as if Alla had saved the day, or words to that effect. So apparently Alla did approach Clay about it before the presentation. I thought when she did interrupt, that she mentioned important design features of the display that Clay was overlooking, such as the decision to make it approachable from all sides, the placement of some merchandising areas, and so on. Now, if there had been less substance to her comments, then it would have looked worse. But, they won, hands down, and apparently both of the execs were impressed enough to use their promotional display. So, I have to question whether the interruptions had a negative impact on the judging.

I was hoping Trump would go all the way and tell Brian hewasa fried, ala The Sith Apprentice.

Was I the only one? I was? Okay, going back to lurk status. [/quote]
No, not the only one. Especially after watching the promo videos with Trump and Vader in the boardroom, on the Yahoo! site and elsewhere. Somehow, the cobra didn't seem like quite enough.

JennaC

Nov 12, 2005 @ 7:23 pm

Marshawn is definitely an exceptional candidate in many ways, she's also a smarmy, conniving operator. Of all the candidates we've seen since season 1, she's the most Omorossa like. Barely, what, 10 minutes into the episode the writing was on the wall. She registered disbelief at Brian’s 15 min lead time call, but she never deigned Brian worthy of her concern. If she is even half as smart as we believe the impending disaster must have been obvious. But she was happy to let others fail around her, that way come boardroom time she could easily point fingers. Then with the presentation, hitting the eject button in an all too Markus like effort to cover her bum, she had no absolutely no business being employed by Trump.[/quote]

Comparing Marshawn to Omarosa is off base IMO. No one knows what she told Brian about anything. In previous episodes, TWOPers have criticized Marshawn for not telling PMs her concerns; however, the extended scenes shown on Yahoo proved otherwise. As it has been proven that she has shared her concerns on previous assignments, it cannot be arbitrarily assumed that she did not share her concerns with Brian about the time.

I was very disappointed that Marshawn did not a) fight to be PM again or b) present for her team. At the same time, I appreciate her appearance on the show and I don't doubt that she will do very well for herself professionally. She articulated well, did not get into pettiness involving her teammates, and she won as PM. Seems to me that she was very unlike Omarosa.

babyfrances

Nov 12, 2005 @ 7:29 pm

In terms of whether or not Alla was out of line in commenting during the presentation, I think it's telling that she was not in a Star Wars costume. If she and Clay had intended for her to not speak at all, why not throw her in a costume along with Felisha and Adam? To me, the fact that she wasn't in costume signals that she was intending all along to jump in to the presentation. Whether or not she discussed that with Clay is another story, but I think he should have guessed that she would based on the fact that she wasn't dressing up along with the lackeys who clearly were not supposed to have a verbal role in the presentation.

Ashforth

Nov 12, 2005 @ 7:53 pm

To me they considered Randall they expert as opposed to recognizing his familarity was as a fan. Who has poor marketing skills or just did not give a damn at that point. There was nothing really interactive about the display nor did it really capture the particular theme of this installment.[/quote]
I think Randal may have engaged in some strategy of his own on this task. Why should he try to be the hero when: 1) none of the other team members were really willing to be PM; 2) Brian screwed up yooogley by missing the meeting with the judges (the JUDGES!); and 3) Marshawn was being difficult and obtuse and ultimately self-destructive. Randal was exempt, so he made enough of an effort to avoid being called out for coasting on it but didn’t go out of his way to be front and center in a team effort that was clearly not going well. I think he’s smart enough that he wouldn’t be coaxed into saying it in a confessional, but I’m sure he was quite satisfied to see two strong competitors bite the dust.

You're holding a copy of the movie, watch it![/quote]
Thank you. I did not understand why they apparently didn’t watch the movie and play the game so they could talk about them intelligently.

I would have left for that meeting, showed up and played myself off as the sole representative of the team so that they wouldn't think that everybody else was just late and unprofessional, and gone on with the damn thing.[/quote]
I think there is some rule that prohibits the team from splitting up unless the PM orders it. I feel as if a similar situation has come up on the show before and it just doesn’t make sense, because a normal person would say, “well, I’m gonna head on over there, I’ll see you at the meeting.”

(Marshawn may have) Tried some sort of "strategy" on this task to get Brian fired, and it backfired in the most major way.[/quote]
You know, I had the exact same thought. She knew Brian had fucked up, knew that the display didn’t look great, and I think she was trying to put the final nail in his coffin. Note that she didn’t just say that she didn’t feel comfortable doing the presentation and ask if someone else could do it; she said that BRIAN should do it. It would have made more sense to suggest that Randal should do it. She tried to lie in the boardroom and say that she had thought Rebecca should do it. But no, she was trying to make sure the whole loss was pinned on Brian. It was a stupid strategy, obviously, as it sealed her own fate instead. I know that there was a lot of fondness for Marshawn but I have been leery of her since her turn as PM, when she delegated and disappeared. I thought that time that by failing to supervise or take responsibility for final approval (of the video, for example) she was setting up her teammates to take the blame if they lost. I feel a bit vindicated in my theory by her actions on this task.

heebiejeebie

Nov 12, 2005 @ 8:40 pm

Partially true (yes, they were bad), but it's more that it sounded like they execs wanted a huge 20' tall, light-sabring DVader figure in the center of the display because he was the central focus of the film, but to someone that grew up on SWars and still a geek today, I think it's better to think of DVader in the movie as the quinsential icon, and using the mask or even the breathing voice to not-quite-so-subtle hint at DVader, while still showing all the other characters in full sight, would have been a killer presentation.[/quote]

My immediate thought following the comments at the meeting with the two execs was to set up viewing stations that let people view the movie and the game through Vader's mask. Not sure if it was possible in that amount of time. But it was so obvious that they ultimately wanted a Vader experience in some way.

Which brings me to:

And, RandallMarshawnBrianRebecca, that knight's name? Anakin Skywalker. aka: Darth Vadar. Meaning? That it not only would have been ok for the "gloomy" figure of Darth Vadar to overshadow the display ... it was required! Gah![/quote]

I honestly think that even if their display was not as interactive as the one Alla did, if the display with the whole good versus evil theme had incorporated Good Anakin and Bad Vader; each having their own side. Or a display started out showing Good - Anakin and then morphing to bad- Vader, Brian may well have won.

Alla did a great job of marketing overall, but it didn't have the Vader focus that I think the LucasFilm guy really wanted. Had Brian actually sat down to watch the sequence shown them at the start of the task and focused on that, he might have won with a lesser quality product but a more focused image of Vader which is ultimately what the task called for. Once again, the missed meeting removed that possibility. And makes me think if Randall actually saw the last film. Heck the last three films. He so missed the point. The simple general basic point. Note to TWOP moderators. Do not let Randall near re-capping. Ever. Because I hate the "prequels" and I know what they are about. I think anyone with even the slightest bit of pop culture awareness does. And the internet takes ten seconds to bring it all up in a nutshell. Or even reading the dummy boxes they had for the display. As to actually ahving the whole movie? Not sure about this as the show was filmed at a time when it was still in the theaters.
But there should have been footage and trailers at the studios' art dept they were working at

quaintirene

Nov 12, 2005 @ 8:41 pm

[bill]At the end of the day I don't understand why she didn't step up to the plate and give it her best shot. After all, her window of opportunity was downsizing really quickly.[/bill]

And all cliches aside, I still don't get it. After Brian was totally responsible for getting the team to the meeting so late that the execs ditched it--and he was a New York resident and so should have known better than anyone--how could Marshawn have thought there was a chance she would go down when the team lost. Brian was a slam dunk. What she did was commit Apprientice Suicide and I can't come up with any kind of reason why!

ccradio

Nov 12, 2005 @ 8:57 pm

On the bright side, we heard "step up" a LOT of times in this episode but I don't think anyone ever said "...to the plate". At least, not that we heard.

CheekyCricket

Nov 12, 2005 @ 9:55 pm

Alla did a great job of marketing overall, but it didn't have the Vader focus that I think the LucasFilm guy really wanted.[/quote]
That's odd, I got the opposite impression. It seemed like Excel didn't have the Vader focus that the LucasFilm exec wanted to see, but I don't recall any comments about the Capital Edge display that indicated the same.

It would be difficult to say for sure, since we mainly saw Clay talking to the execs, with some interjections by Alla, with the execs listening and nodding, whereas when we got to the Excel presentation, they openly questioned why Darth Vader hadn't been featured more prominently. We only got to hear some of the boardroom comments as well, but since Trump indicated that the Best Buy and LucasFilms execs overwhelmingly preferred Capital Edge's display, and that they cited the downplaying of Vader as one of the major problems with the Excel display, it seemed clear that the execs liked the focus and the approach of the Capital Edge display, and didn't have any serious problems with it. Also, the fact that they decided to use it at Best Buy says a lot. Even looking at the bare-bones version at my local Best Buy, I could see elements of the Capital Edge display.

I honestly think that even if their display was not as interactive as the one Alla did, if the display with the whole good versus evil theme had incorporated Good Anakin and Bad Vader; each having their own side. Or a display started out showing Good - Anakin and then morphing to bad- Vader, Brian may well have won. [/quote]
I believe that the Capital Edge display also incorporates the good versus evil theme--which is really a no-brainer in the context of the Star Wars saga--only in a more subtle and creative way. We only got to see parts of it, but I recall that when Alla and Clay were setting up the display, she had a definite sense of where the "good guys" and the "bad guys" belonged, because at one point, Clay had gotten one type of character mixed up with another, and she redirected him. The drastically stripped-down version at my Best Buy definitely incorporates the theme, but the images of the characters are more dramatic and striking than the flat images used in the Excel display.

zenner

Nov 12, 2005 @ 10:07 pm

Marshawn is definitely an exceptional candidate in many ways, she's also a smarmy, conniving operator. Of all the candidates we've seen since season 1, she's the most Omorossa like.

I don't think she was conniving at all, except as the recapper at Blackenterprise.com noted: she wasn't playing to win, she was playing not to lose. Up to then, she had done a decent job, and she may have been victim to brain fatigue, which according to Bren, is severe by this stage in the game.

Kalahari

Nov 12, 2005 @ 10:20 pm

I did not understand why they apparently didn’t watch the movie and play the game so they could talk about them intelligently.[/quote]

I believe this task took place this summer when the movie wasn't out yet (in theaters). And they certainly didn't have an advance screening copy of the movie. As for Battlefront II, that JUST came out last week. As did the DVD for Episode III. Both things they were planning the displays for. So I guess they were planning this about 6 months or so in advance. They had access to neither the movie nor the game.

blocked writer

Nov 12, 2005 @ 10:32 pm

Now, if there had been less substance to her comments, then it would have looked worse. But, they won, hands down, and apparently both of the execs were impressed enough to use their promotional display. So, I have to question whether the interruptions had a negative impact on the judging.[/quote]

You may be right, maybe the interruptions didn't have any effect on the judging, and I'm not questioning the fact that there was substance to Alla's comments. I just think that the combination of Alla's interruptions and Clay's curtness made the presentation less than stellar. Luckily for them, their display was so much better than the other team's that they didn't need to have the greatest presentation.

drevna

Nov 12, 2005 @ 10:44 pm

Kalahari: I believe this task took place this summer when the movie wasn't out yet (in theaters). And they certainly didn't have an advance screening copy of the movie. As for Battlefront II, that JUST came out last week. As did the DVD for Episode III. Both things they were planning the displays for. So I guess they were planning this about 6 months or so in advance. They had access to neither the movie nor the game.[/quote]You may be right, but whether they had access to the whole movie or not, they were told that the focus was Episode III. Both teams were also shown the trailer of Episode III; the trailer was Anakin turning into Vader so IMHO from all that they were shown it was obvious where the focus should be in their presentation. They were just either stupid, i.e. late for meeting, or ignorant, i.e. having no prior knowledge of Star Wars.

someoneelse27

Nov 12, 2005 @ 10:49 pm

Luckily for them, their display was so much better than the other team's that they didn't need to have the greatest presentation. [/quote]

Good point - and maybe that was Marshawn's point too, when she said that it was a task "about a display".;)

peterredtail

Nov 12, 2005 @ 11:06 pm

I know that there was a lot of fondness for Marshawn but I have been leery of her since her turn as PM, when she delegated and disappeared. I thought that time that by failing to supervise or take responsibility for final approval (of the video, for example) she was setting up her teammates to take the blame if they lost. I feel a bit vindicated in my theory by her actions on this task.[/quote]

I agree - very accurate statement. I am sure it has been said in this thread, but I believe that Marshawn was trying to play under the radar but surfaced a little soon.

I read all the Alla love - but she came across as slightly harpyish...yes, Clay took the credit, but my dear Alla that happens all the time in business. She knew what to expect. Should she make the final two, that will be her moment to shine.

blocked writer

Nov 12, 2005 @ 11:20 pm

Comparing Marshawn to Omarosa is off base IMO. No one knows what she told Brian about anything. In previous episodes, TWOPers have criticized Marshawn for not telling PMs her concerns; however, the extended scenes shown on Yahoo proved otherwise. As it has been proven that she has shared her concerns on previous assignments, it cannot be arbitrarily assumed that she did not share her concerns with Brian about the time.

I was very disappointed that Marshawn did not a) fight to be PM again or b) present for her team. At the same time, I appreciate her appearance on the show and I don't doubt that she will do very well for herself professionally. She articulated well, did not get into pettiness involving her teammates, and she won as PM. Seems to me that she was very unlike Omarosa. [/quote]

I totally agree with this. The only thing that Marshawn has in common with Omarosa is that they are both black women. Otherwise, I don't see that they are very alike at all. I was also disappointed in her performance this week, but it doesn't negate everything she did right. As you stated, she didn't get involved with the pettiness on her team. That's a big plus to me, since that's a trap that most haven't been able to avoid. She even talked to the team at the beginning of one episode and tried to get them to put their animosity behind them.

Her defense in the boardroom was terrible, but I believe her lies were more about clutching at straws to save herself than planned-out, deliberate lies. She obviously wasn't thinking clearly, because some of the things she said just didn't make sense. I think with any candidate, they deserve kudos for the things they do right, and criticism when they blow it. But in my view, the good doesn't cancel out the bad, or vice-versa. TA1 Amy was horrible in the final-four interview process, and has said some tactless things about Carolyn and others in her post-season interviews. But despite the fact that I dislike Amy, it doesn't change the fact that she had a lot of good ideas, and performed well during her season.

Marshawn also strikes me as someone who will learn from her mistakes, unlike Omarosa. I also agree that in the long run, I believe she'll do well as a lawyer. Her exit from the show wasn't good. But in the history of the show, it was a long way from the worse, and as time goes by, it won't stand out as one of the horrific moments that people will keep talking about. I believe she has enough ability and intelligence to overcome her one big misstep on the show. Although I did feel let down by her, I still wish Marshawn the best.

ETA: Marshawn has a real career to go back to, and I'm sure we won't be seeing her on The Surreal Life or any similar show, unlike Omarosa, who has left herself little choice but to be a "Reality-show Villain." Who the hell else would hire her?

HickoryColt

Nov 12, 2005 @ 11:58 pm

highlander

Nov 13, 2005 @ 12:50 am

I saw a huge Darth Vader on Capital Edge's display and the photos of it are on yahoo. I have a thought about Marshawn now that I have more time to think about it. She probably did not even think her not presenting would come up in the boardoom. She may have thought that Trump would ask her about Brian (which he did) and possibly ask her how Rebecca did at presenting. She came prepared with her answers for that and when they went after her about shunning the presentation she stumbled and switched courses because after all what could she say. It may be possible that she thought she was safe and did not even think it would come up.

AdrienneP

Nov 13, 2005 @ 2:41 am

I believe this task took place this summer when the movie wasn't out yet (in theaters). And they certainly didn't have an advance screening copy of the movie. [/quote]
But didn't Randall say he'd seen all 6 episodes of SW, and didn't Brian ask Randall for a recap of all 6? I could just be delusional... it's been known to happen... but I thought I heard that.

sailor

Nov 13, 2005 @ 4:14 am

Third, what is with these tasks? Writing a song? What the hell does that do with making a living buying, building, and selling real estate (and declaring multiple bankrupcies as a sideline)? [/quote]

I believe the next task was chosen based upon Clay's confessional saying that he will intentionally sabotage the next task as retaliation for not earning an exemption.

I believe that Donald and Mark are constantly kept informed about all that the camera persons see on a daily basis, including the confessionals. Donald and Mark did not want to possibly embarrass any client, thereby risking any future client negotiation problems.

They just hold this task in the background for a situation such as this one.

That was the reason they showed us Clay's confessional this week just before they showed us the previews for next week's task.

highlander

Nov 13, 2005 @ 8:27 am

They just hold this task in the background for a situation such as this one.[/quote]

I respectfully disagree. Even when the candidates are not trying to sabatoge a team and the candidate is going for a win they can embarrass a client (witness the Dove task) (witness Brian not getting to a crucial meeting with the clients on time) etc. etc. I read that when a company signs up to promote their product or services, Burnett and Co. have several ideas of what the task might be and then choose one. To me, the writing of the song plays to Excel's team and Rebecca's strength. It has nothing to do with worrying about Clay sabatoging a client. When Trump got mad at Chris S2, Chris' task when he was PM (Trump told Chris to be PM) was the bridal task. Burnett and Trump knew the other team had a ringer in Sandy. It might just be that some candidates are better at presenting and writing than marketing and selling this season and Burnett and Trump want to see how they do when the task is geared to their strength. They could have had the XM Radio task be not about writing but marketing and promotion, creating a buzz. In that case, Clay might do well. On a shallow note, as much as I want Clay fired, when the cameras pan him in the boardroom he is handsome. Randal has so much presence and is striking.

blocked writer

Nov 13, 2005 @ 8:28 am

I must be old because I just don't understand how, out of a group of four intelligent people, who as far as I know grew up in the United States, only ONE actually knew the basic plot and characters to the most popular science fiction movie franchise (and possibly the mosty popular movie franchise period) of all time. [/quote]

I thought the same thing at first. I'm a Star Wars fan, and it was hard for me to believe that most of the people would not have at least a basic grasp of the storyline of the movies. Then I realized that there are aspects of popular culture that I generally ignore. Although I understand pro wrestling is very popular, I never watch it, and I couldn't tell you anything about any of the players. I'm not saying that wrestling is as popular as the SW movies, but if someone has no interest in either genre of entertainment, it's quite possible to be completely in the dark about both. I'm sure Brian, Marshawn & Rebecca were aware that the movies existed, they were just not fans.

I don't think their downfall was so much that they didn't know the movies (except Randal), but that they probably didn't really research them that much. With the internet, there's so much information at their fingertips about the franchise. That's apprently what Alla did, because she didn't seem to know anything about the films.

Of course, missing the meeting with the executives was inexcusable. Brian relied on Randal too much. I'm a huge fan of The Lord of the Rings trilogy, and if asked to make a display, I think I could come up with a pretty good one, with the main characters and some depictions of the main points of the story. However, meeting with the executives was essential. Being a fan isn't sufficient, because what is important to you as a fan might not be the same things that the executives want to stress.

Speaking of Star Wars, I loved the promos of Chewbacca with his pink rolly suitcase before the show aired. But I didn't see Chewwy on the actual show. Did I miss him, or was that a just for the promo only?

highlander

Nov 13, 2005 @ 8:36 am

Chewbacca was featured on the show. Alla had him photographed. Which reminds me. When Yoda came on, the camera panned to Randal, With Darth Vader, the cameras went to Clay. Who was supposed to represent Alla?-Was it Chewbacca? I can't believe it if it was. Or possibly, the cameras did not pan to Alla at all. Anybody know?

Masem

Nov 13, 2005 @ 8:43 am

Revenge of the Sith was released May 19th, 2005. There's pretty accurate information in the spoiler thread that this season's tasks started around April 15, and another spoiler that places a yet to be seen task on May 9th, meaning that it's unlikely Randal saw the movie prior to the game starting. While this would point to a special screening for the Apprenti to review the movie (and of course would be fair and match with Randal saying that he's seen all 6 movies), I would fully expect that most of the basic story in Revenge was rather obvious since you know where it started, and where it was going; only some details needed to be resolved in the movie.

Kabelvision

Nov 13, 2005 @ 9:53 am

For you who think the Finals will be Randal vs. Alla, does it mean that Randal is The Apprentice? Remember what Donald said to Ivana? "You stripped. I don't hire a stripper."

GeorgeOMalley

Nov 13, 2005 @ 10:20 am

Ashforth

Nov 13, 2005 @ 11:22 am

IMO, given what we've seen, there is no way that Clay makes it to the final 2.

As for the stripping issue, I think there is a significant difference between having been a dancer in the past and dropping your skirt for money during a task while on the show. I do think that at some point Alla's past profession will be used as a *bombshell* "you won't believe what happens in the boardroom!" moment, but for some reason, I doubt that her firing (if it happens) will be directly related to it. As far as I have seen, there hasn't been anything overtly sexualized in her approach to the tasks that could be coupled with her former employment to paint her as too tawdry to work for Trump. If being a former stripper is, in itself, a reason for her to be fired, then of course they should never have put her on the show. Not that it would stop them if they thought it might lead to controversy and big, big ratings.

FuManchu

Nov 13, 2005 @ 11:53 am

Two things.

Firstly, next week they're definitely going to have to get Capital Edge to choose their worst member to give up (ie Clay), rather than have Excel choose their best player to take (ie Alla). The former makes the teams relatively balanced; the latter would pit two hugely competent people (Randal and Alla) and a decent performer (Rebecca) against two minor players (Felisha and Adam) and a complete disaster area (Clay).

Secondly, I've identified what I hate about this series. Yes, it's got better characters and boardroom set-pieces, and flashes of genuine competence from likeable people (well, Randal anyway). But every task - every single one - has been about merely demonstrating competence rather than demonstrating brilliance. That is, they've all had a basic plan of what they have to do, and essentially anyone who follows the plan and avoids the major pitfalls will win, because the other team will fall into one of the traps and fail. This is, in part, because of the virtual absence of money this season - it's all about advertising and subjective displays. One team misses out Darth Vader - they lose. One team mispronounces 'Zathura' - they lose. One team's unimaginative leaflet campaign falls prey to another's equally unimaginative 'ask people to sign up' campaign.

The result? Mediocrity is raised to the level of a virtue. There hasn't really been a single occasion where one team did well but another team did better. The tasks in the earlier series required originality and creativity! Fresh ideas! "Hey, we can set up a special deal for the VIPs!" "Why don't we advertise on the back of our cabs?" "Let's get an exclusive marketing deal with the local sports centres!" Or what about the haggling task from Series 1? It required skill and judgment, good use of time, and had no set way to complete it. They got the task and they got on with it in any way they liked. Now, we have a set format: Get task. Meet with executives to find what they want. Go to a workshop until you've built it. Come back to boardroom. Where's the room for new approaches?

I will say one thing for Trump's extra firings this season - they've reminded everyone that simply coasting along won't cut it. Hopefully they'll take this on board, but it's not the people that have been the weak link this time round. It's the tasks. The clichéd use of "out of the box" this series is made much worse by the fact that it's not only boring to hear but actually impossible to do.

someoneelse27

Nov 13, 2005 @ 12:02 pm

I do think that at some point Alla's past profession will be used as a *bombshell* "you won't believe what happens in the boardroom!" moment, but for some reason, I doubt that her firing (if it happens) will be directly related to it.[/quote]
I thought that Markus said that it already did come out, in the Boardroom when he was fired (but that it was obviously edited out)? Not that Markus is the most reliable source, though...;)

CurryMasala

Nov 13, 2005 @ 12:12 pm

FuManchu,
I totally agree. I keep begging the candidates to come up with fresh good ideas. It has been so long since there has been competition among good and better rather than just competent and incompetent. Out of a million applicants, is this what this show has come down to? And I thought that for once one reality show is really about brilliance rather than drama.
Anyway, I have not liked Marshawn and Rebecca this season. Somehow, they don't really do anything. Yes, they do not make fools of themselves, but had they been in season 1, they would not have lasted so many episodes. When was the last time did either of them actually do something of substance, besides talking sense?
And I have to say, Alla's focus on selling is brilliant. No matter how good ideas may be, the ultimate goal is to sell, and she does that. Randal is good, but I have to yet see brilliance from him.
I cannot believe how Adam allows himself to be manipulated. It seems as if the entire team is intimidated by Alla. Even Clay cannot stand up to her in front of her. Alla has a very strong and aggressive personality, but she lacks the likability factor that Randal has.
By the way, I moved to the US four years ago and honestly did not care about Star Wars. But Episode II was released, and everywhere I went, I saw some parts of it. I was disappointed with the movie, but I was curious to see what the plot was all about. And I watched Episode 4, and got so into it that I had to watch 1, 5 and 6 in one night. And I could not wait for 3! Given this, I am so surprised that Brian, Marshawn, and Rebecca knew nothing about Star Wars! Granted, they may not be movie buffs, but honestly the brand is everywhere, and one cannot really not know anything about it.
Randal seems to be the obvious choice. I cannot wait for another season, and I do hope we see better candidates.

EmilyPostPunk

Nov 13, 2005 @ 12:33 pm

Remember what Donald said to Ivana? "You stripped. I don't hire a stripper."[/quote]

I think this much-ballyhooed quote is being taken out of context. I read it more as "I'm not hiring a stripper" than "I'm not hiring a stripper." Ivana stripped in a desperate effort to sell just one more candy bar, which is not at all the same thing as being a professional stripper.

That said, I can't see Alla winning. I think she's exceptionally good at marketing, and she showed it to great advantage in this task, but her personality is a little too edgy for TrumpWorld.

sesstr

Nov 13, 2005 @ 12:39 pm

Remember what Donald said to Ivana? "You stripped. I don't hire a stripper.[/quote]

Yes, but there is a huge difference between Ivana and Alla apart from the stripping thing. I don't recall Ivana ever doing much of worth during her days of glory on the show, except there was that wheel thing and it's certainly debatable whether that was creative at all. In all areas I can think of - diplomacy, intelligence, boardroom politics, getting along with the other contestants, creativity - Alla dwarfs Ivana without a shadow of a doubt in my mind.

As for stripping, Ivana did it on the show, not many years before as Alla is reported to have done. That has to count for something. And, I have a feeling that Trump doesn't mind a shrewd stripper, as long as she's shrewd. After all, he's a master of exploiting anything that buys one power, fame and money. What doomed Ivana wasn't her stripping, it was the utter stupidity in which she did it

mjamief

Nov 13, 2005 @ 12:59 pm

I guess if I had to select a previous apprentice whom Marshawn (and Rebecca to a certain extent) remind me of, it would be Jennifer M (from season II). I guess they seem to go about the game the same way. They play not to lose and if they happen to end up in the boardroom - they can at least (usually) make a good argument not to get fired.

Season II also had the first double firing. We can thank Blinky (Maria) and Wes for that. Poor Wes, didn't even get his own cab. Maybe he, Brian and the fab four can set up a support group.

flopod2000

Nov 13, 2005 @ 4:49 pm

After reading the recap, I realized what issue I had with this episode. In all of the sessions of the Apprentice, each episode has some craptastic “moral,” as if this series were Trump’s fables for business. Most of the time I don’t pay any attention to them, but the “loyalty” theme seemed pretty weak. Honestly, I just don’t believe that Marshawn's lack of “loyalty” was the reason behind her backing out of the presentation. It would have made more sense, if one accused her of not following through or not being a creative liar in the boardroom. It is as if the producers saw that they had really good footage, but had to stretch or were too lazy to find a cohesive focus. Maybe that is reason why I left asking “what the hell” was because the premise of the episode was so lame. (Not to mention, loyalty does not always lead to good business decisions. After all, look where loyalty got Harriet Miers.) Really, this is why students are told to think of a thesis/theme before they write an essay. Without a clear focus, you wind up confusing and frustrating your reader or, in this case, viewer

bpd

Nov 13, 2005 @ 5:38 pm

Since kids are the ones who primarily want video games, highlighting the newest characters isn't entirely wrong. Of course, a meeting to learn who the breakout/endearing characters would be required a meeting.
[/quote]

But the game in question "Star Wars: Battleground II" is, at least in theory, skewed to an older group. The Electronic Software ratings Board gave it a 'Teen' rating, which seems to do nothing other than tell the marketing department where to aim.

That much being said, teenagers aren't going to want cutesy junk like Ewoks and Jar Jar Binks. Give them an anti-hero than can cast their affections on. Since in the galaxy far far away, Jango Fett is dead and Boba Fett and Han Solo are both infants, you're pretty much left with Anakin. Basically, before falling from grace and transforming into Darth Vader, he's supposed to be everything Luke Skywalker later becomes.

Randal shoulda known at least *that* much about "Revenge of the Sith".

(This ten second lesson on "How to Attract Teenagers" is all preceded on Carrie Fisher in a gold bikini being a generational thing.)

Edited for grammar

JenL1625

Nov 13, 2005 @ 7:07 pm

Because I have no knowledge of the storyline, I didn't think Marshawn's idea was a bad one. Since kids are the ones who primarily want video games, highlighting the newest characters isn't entirely wrong. Of course, a meeting to learn who the breakout/endearing characters would be required a meeting[/quote] Except that Marshawn (to the extent I understood her) didn't seem to be saying "let's focus on breakout characters that are important in this movie." She seemed to be saying "let's focus on minor characters, since everyone already knows the main characters." Now, maybe that's just what I inferred because she was pointed at a character that I couldn't recognize (and yes, I've seen all 6 of the Star Wars movies) . . . .

Ashforth

Nov 13, 2005 @ 7:42 pm

I think Marshawn's idea was to use characters who weren't so well known because she thought it would make people curious to find out who they were. She didn't know and didn't seem to care whether they were major or minor characters. It might not have been a horrible idea if it hadn't been: 1) based on which ones were bright!colors! and 2) the exact opposite of what the Lucasfilm and Best Buy executives wanted.

I thought that Markus said that it already did come out, in the Boardroom when he was fired (but that it was obviously edited out)? Not that Markus is the most reliable source, though...;)[/quote]
If Alla's past was revealed, why would they show us everything else and leave that out? Very interesting. I don’t see any reason not to believe Marcus about it, though. Boy may not be able to squeeze out a cogent thought very often, but he wasn’t really an outright liar.

So it’s possible that in one boardroom they had Adam's alleged virginity, Clay's confirmed homosexuality, and Alla's hot-enough-to-inspire-alleged-homicide former work in the adult entertainment industry. No wonder Trump went insane.

In regard to this week's and other tasks: It is hard to tell what designing and building floats and DVD displays, pushing fitness classes and creating mascots have to do with the real estate biz. OTOH, pushing unnecessary sports equipment and the Tetho Expo/Learning Annex tasks have provided valuable experience for putting on those time-share sales seminars that are so definitely in some of these contestants’ futures...

AwNutz

Nov 13, 2005 @ 8:32 pm

2) the exact opposite of what the Lucasfilm and Best Buy executives wanted.[/quote]

Unfortunately, they couldn't have known that since they'd have to have actually, well, met with the Lucas Films and Best Buy executives....

Ashforth

Nov 13, 2005 @ 9:26 pm

Bingo.

Black Knight

Nov 13, 2005 @ 10:59 pm

Most of the time I don’t pay any attention to them, but the “loyalty” theme seemed pretty weak. Honestly, I just don’t believe that Marshawn's lack of “loyalty” was the reason behind her backing out of the presentation. [/quote]
No, it wasn't the reason that she backed out - the reason was pretty clear, she was ludicrously afraid that if the team lost, she'd be fired for her presentation. She put herself over her team - that's where the disloyalty comes in. Especially since, if she seriously thought the presentation could be a major contributing factor to a loss, she only made it worse by dropping out 30 minutes beforehand and leaving Rebecca to slap something together out of Marshawn's notes and whatever else Rebecca could think up in that short time period. After all, as Marshawn repeatedly said in the boardroom, she felt she was better than Brian or Rebecca - well, except for when she was claiming that she thought Brian would be better at the presentation...the head really spins.

I agree that safe mediocrity has been the theme of much of the season - the only one I really find to be pushing for more than that is Alla, and Rebecca at least understands the principle, as reflected by her accurate assessment of Randal's seminar idea. She knew Randal was playing it safe in a way that left plenty of room for the other team to win - Randal lucked out there. Alla should win. I know she's not the most likable person ever, but neither was Kelly and he won, and Alla's so much better than Kelly.

2) the exact opposite of what the Lucasfilm and Best Buy executives wanted.[/quote]
Unfortunately, they couldn't have known that since they'd have to have actually, well, met with the Lucas Films and Best Buy executives....[/quote]
True, though I think if Marshawn had bothered to look at, I don't know, any DVD packaging and advertising for any movie ever (she did shrug the task off as just a, *sniff*, display), she might have noticed that the most recognizable characters/actors are always emphasized. The various Buffy season DVDs don't have pictures of that one vampire that appeared in one episode and was quickly dusted by Buffy, it's always Buffy and whoever else really had prominence that season (Angel, Faith, Spike, etc.). The various Sex and the City season DVDs always have Carrie, Sam, Charlotte and Miranda on the packaging, not one of Sam's zillion one-ep slampieces. Never mind the execs, all they needed to do was look at who the studio had on the cover of the DVD! (Vader's mask looming ominously, Anakin, Obi Wan, Palpatine, and Amidala.)

flopod2000

Nov 13, 2005 @ 11:23 pm

Most of the time I don’t pay any attention to them, but the “loyalty” theme seemed pretty weak. Honestly, I just don’t believe that Marshawn's lack of “loyalty” was the reason behind her backing out of the presentation.
[/quote]

No, it wasn't the reason that she backed out - the reason was pretty clear, she was ludicrously afraid that if the team lost, she'd be fired for her presentation. She put herself over her team - that's where the disloyalty comes in. Especially since, if she seriously thought the presentation could be a major contributing factor to a loss, she only made it worse by dropping out 30 minutes beforehand and leaving Rebecca to slap something together out of Marshawn's notes and whatever else Rebecca could think up in that short time period. After all, as Marshawn repeatedly said in the boardroom, she felt she was better than Brian or Rebecca - well, except for when she was claiming that she thought Brian would be better at the presentation...the head really spins.
[/quote]

To be clear, I am being more critical of the construction/focus of this episode, rather than anything else. What Marshawn did is inexcusable, not because she undercut her team, but because she made herself look pitiful. As a public speaker, she should have given the presentation no matter how inane it may have seemed. Even though it may have been embarrassing, her place in the competition would have been safe. I agree that she did put herself above her teammates. Nevertheless, putting one self above others means he/she is selfish, not disloyal. After all, it is not as if Marshawn gave trade secrets to Clay, Alla, Felicia, or Adam.

Keupi

Nov 14, 2005 @ 3:57 am

I have a secret ... each week I imagine Trump himself as the PM for each team - and the hair pulling at those meltdowns... hee hee....

While I have some thoughts to the hopefuls and the 'Don,' each comes back to this episode.

Given this episode and the result firings, I have no problem with the double this week as I would not hire Marshawn or Brian. Given a choice as to who to keep, I would have kept Brian over Marshawn given the circumstances. Brian's problem I see a chance at fixing, Marshawn's attitude is a different story. Unfortunately for Brian, it's too late in the interview process to worry about fixing that problem and bye-bye.

The thing that gets me about the firings in this episode is not that he did two, but that he didn't do it when called-for before. Last week is a good example. As much as I wanted Markus off my set, he was not the reason they lost that task. Trump firing him was fine, but there were others who caused a direct line to that loss that could have gone. The Four-Fry the previous week, a two- or three-bake last week and then the two-dunk this week.

The other question for me is Randal. Where was he when this presentation debate was occurring? He could have bolstered Marshawn by being her second and do the 'interrupt when necessary' thing Alla kind of did. Although exempt from firing, at that time given the missed meeting everything was hit or miss. As the Star Wars expert (and only source on that team) even his 'concept' vs 'execution' argument seems off. Though his effort may have equalled or surpassed his teammates, he has set a standard and that's his to uphold. If actual job, no problem as it would be off-week; interview process set as is - some passiveness watchful eye cast. Given past performance and how poorly this team has done, he probably picked his battles and fought the ones worth fighting - just enough to contribute given the exemption and no one could say he coasted.

I do think the task was set up beforehand and the prior team incidents led to much drama. But the only one this episode that impressed me was Rebecca. She seemed to have a 'shut up or step up' attitude.

Rowr17

Nov 14, 2005 @ 8:49 am

Keupi, you have a valid point in saying that Randal would have rocked the presentation. However, I think it was a situation where Randal had done pretty much everything else for the project, and the other's said that they would take care of the presenting part so he could concentrate on the display. Up to this point in the game, a lot of people thought Marshawn was final 2 material. Randal had no reason to to thing think that she was going to completely flake out.

I don't recall seeing Randal even in the room while Marshawn, Brian and Rebecca were talking about who would speak. It's possible that he was there and we just didn't see him, in which case ITA that he just coasted, but it's also possible that he was finishing up some last minute details and was not aware of what was going on until just before the execs came.

My eyes may be clouded by my membership in the Randal fan club, but Randal doesn't seem like the coasting type. In this game, the only person you can count on to do a good job is yourself (and sometimes not even then. See: Markus, Kristi, Melissa... hell, pretty much everyone who has ever been on this show.) But when there are so few people left on your team, and so much to do on a task, at a certain point you have to trust your teammates, espeically when they are not Clay, and thus have given you no prior reason to believe that they are an ass. You wouldn't want to be labeld as "not being a team player" [/Bill], would you?

Nutjob

Nov 14, 2005 @ 12:23 pm

Up to this point in the game, a lot of people thought Marshawn was final 2 material. Randal had no reason to to thing think that she was going to completely flake out.[/quote]

ITA. Especially after the last task, and because of the fact that she presents for a living, Randal probably thought she had it wired and was off doing other last minute preparations for the presentation.

holdfast

Nov 14, 2005 @ 3:17 pm

IIRC, they didn't go to the Best Buy store, but to an office building at 12th and 20th-something street...I specifically recall hearing "12th Avenue in the west 20's"...and to get there by subway? A lot longer than even 30 minutes, not to mention that you'd have to walk from the 7th Avenue line once you're even on the west side of town or grab a cab at that point.[/quote]

Take the F at 59th and 5th down to 23rd and then grab a cab? There are also other ways, but this one occurred to me first and at least it's doing something. Sure you're gonna be late, but not that late. It's bad being even a bit late, but a lot better than being so late the the other party cancels the meeting. I wonder if they are barred from doing that on account of the camera crews?

If Rebecca is too slow, too bad - they can meet up later or she could spend some quality time surfing Star Wars fan sites. You don't have to drag every single person to a meeting, especially if one is literally slowing you down.

Also, let's not over-exagerate NY traffic. Sometimes it is horrible, but this journey wasn't all that long - and if you pick a good cross street and zoom over to the West Side Highway, it might even be doable in 15 minutes - but certainly not a safe bet.

On another note - Randal was clearly a SW classic fan - and not too familiar with the newer, suckier, trilogy. In the original episodes, Luke, Leia and Han are the main character - Vader is more of a 2 dimensional dramatic foil - and is not humanized at all until the last 15 minutes of Return of the Jedi.

The new trilogy is all about the transformation from Anakin to Vader - what does it take to turn an otherwise decent human into a Vader? Randal didn't really have his head around this - and it's an issue for any 30-something dealing with sort of task. Even for a fanboy like me, the new trilogy lacks the substance of the old, and is at best an appendage or a weak prequel. That is not an objective analysis - rather a very subjective one from someone who inernalized the magic of the original at an early age, and for whom the new trilogy looks gimmicky and poorly written. But this task is about selling the new DVD and Video Game - the real trick would be to find a way to appeal to fans of the original and the new series. Neither team seemed to address this -instead, one team came up with a damn good tagline and a good visual display -and the other didn't.

Final other note - Rebecca gave a presentation - she did not storm Mt. Suribachi to plant the flag! Seriously, it was good that she stepped in (not up!) but really, she'd done sweet f all up to that point, so why make out like she's Audie Murphy for actually doing something instead of being her usual cute but boat anchor-like self?

CheekyCricket

Nov 14, 2005 @ 4:23 pm

Up to this point in the game, a lot of people thought Marshawn was final 2 material. Randal had no reason to to thing think that she was going to completely flake out.

ITA. Especially after the last task, and because of the fact that she presents for a living, Randal probably thought she had it wired and was off doing other last minute preparations for the presentation.[/quote][/quote]
I thought Marshawn had some impressive qualities but stopped thinking of her as final 2 material after the third or fourth episode, since she seemed too detached from the tasks as they were happening. She observed problems but from what we could see, she didn't try to remedy the problems. So, I'm apparently one of the few people who wasn't surprised by this turn of events, although I never imagined she'd dig herself in so deep during the boardroom.

I don't recall seeing Randal even in the room while Marshawn, Brian and Rebecca were talking about who would speak. It's possible that he was there and we just didn't see him, in which case ITA that he just coasted, but it's also possible that he was finishing up some last minute details and was not aware of what was going on until just before the execs came. [/quote]
I don't recall seeing him there either, and if it's literally true that Marshawn pulled out a half-hour before the presentation, then he may well have been finishing up details with the display. As has been speculated earlier, it's possible that the rest of Excel didn't want Randal doing the presentation because he had already outshone the rest of them, and they didn't want to look completely dependent on him for their success. Not that they had a prayer of winning, even with an outstanding presentation.

. In the original episodes, Luke, Leia and Han are the main character - Vader is more of a 2 dimensional dramatic foil - and is not humanized at all until the last 15 minutes of Return of the Jedi.[/quote]
I'd say he becomes a central figure in The Empire Strikes Back, and undoubtedly so at the "Luke, I am your father" moment, though he isn't humanized until the end of Jedi. And Randal would have known that Darth Vader was a fallen Jedi, from Obi-Wan's comments during A New Hope. So even if Randal only knew the "original" trilogy, he would have known that Vader was crucial to the saga. Besides, as others have pointed out, all Excel needed to do was to go online, type in "Star Wars," and they'd find all the information they needed, including synopses and detailed discussions of Episodes I and II, and possible spoilers about Episode III (assuming that the task was filmed right before the film was released, which seems to be the case). They basically screwed up big-time.

The Herald

Nov 15, 2005 @ 5:50 am

Just based on last night I am going to say I would not be surprised at all to see a DOUBLE HIRING of both Randall and Alla.
[/quote]

Even though I like them both, I would not like to see this happen. I think it flies in the face the whole concept of winning. It's like playing baseball and not keeping score. (And yes, I used a baseball metaphor without irony. MB, please consider this my application for Apprentice 5).

jblues

Nov 15, 2005 @ 10:35 am

What I saw happen with Marshawn was simply the deterioration of another reality show. Simply put, in the first season, everyone plays flat out hard. With each successive season, people start employing "strategy" which they believe they have gleaned from past episodes/players/situations. So here we have Marshawn trying to hedge, instead of trying to knock one out of the park because she's trying to "win the game". If you want to watch someone who's trying their best to showcase their talents, then keep watching Alla, because she's the one who gets it done regardless of which nitwit (Clay, are you reading this?) is PM or who drops the ball. That's what Trump wants and really responds to. Marshawn just outsmarted herself, as have many others trying to strategically find an angle.

Go watch any of the others (TAR, Survivor, BB...) and you'll see the same thing.

Just my 3 cents (adjusted for inflation...)

natashapierre

Nov 15, 2005 @ 11:59 am

The thing that gets me about the firings in this episode is not that he did two, but that he didn't do it when called-for before. Last week is a good example. As much as I wanted Markus off my set, he was not the reason they lost that task. Trump firing him was fine, but there were others who caused a direct line to that loss that could have gone. [/quote]

I agree, except that I think Trump (and his lawyers, maybe) probably thought he couldn't fire Clay in a week when Clay's homosexuality was part of the issue, and if he couldn't fire Clay, then he would have had a hard time firing Adam, who probably did less wrong than Clay and got into some of the trouble he did because Clay (on purpose or inadvertently) pushed Adam's Jewish-stereotype buttons ...

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