Word to whoever said Adam=Ross Gellar and may I add Adam=Ross Gellar=Hate.
Cant stand that whiney man stuff. He was a loser as PM and Clay is a mess.
I thought that Mark was Ross Gellar? He certainly had the Ross Gellar too-white teeth, as I think someone had mentioned on another thread somewhere.[/quote][/quote]Mark may have the blinding white Ross Gellar teeth, but in all other respects, I don't see a Ross comparison. There are too many similarities between Ross and Adam, it's almost eerie. Brainy, Jewish, dorky, easily flustered, whiny. The only thing that doesn't seem similar is that for some reason, Ross seemed to attract a lot of women and oddly was found attractive by Jennifer Aniston. Definitely not a virgin. I don't think Adam can say the same.
RobInSF
Nov 6, 2005 @ 8:52 pm
First time poster:
Some thoughts I had about the episode and the comments/speculation/mind-reading from other commenters...
Adam was playing on stereotypes in the presentation (~nice Jewish boy from Atlanta), which is his perogative. It may not be fair, but it IS life, that one can do that about one's own group, but rarely can another person, unless done for shock value ( a la Carlos Mencia's show) and/or when in an intimate relationship with the "victim" of the comment/joke. This was Clay's mistake... in judgement of how his joke would be recieved. Perhaps [snip] Clay fell under the assumption that one minority can kid another without deep inter-personal intimacy. It is something that has happened to me when I was in college, and I learned a harsh lesson at the time, and have not slipped up again...
As for Clay's reaction, I felt it was in line with a very serious charge, no....association with a label of "anti-semite", based on one visible joking comment made in public. Now maybe I am not exposed a lot to how people in the world may hate Jews, for whatever reason they would think that's the right way to feel about a group, but I do feel that any accusation dealing with racism is a sticky tar-baby that can be impossible to be free of. Clay could be in the shadow of that label forever in his career, or maybe a confrontation in the next episode explaining his anger will clear his reputation, but I don't think that is likely. Let's be honest, when a person is associated with a racist attitude (a la "Is he an anti-semite?", "I don't think he is an anti-semite."), and it becomes public, it's there no matter what the person says or does after that. Any actions can be seen a "cover" or a guilt-trip response...It's a tough badge to wear. Like accused child-molester, rapist, or racist. (And no, I don't think they are equivalent crimes, but charges, even unfounded, carry a stigma, no matter the truth)
And from what we saw , Based on the content we have seen on the show (I have not viewed any website material), and my assumptions of the severity of the "charge" of anti-semitism, Adam went waaaaaaay overboard in his reaction. Raising a label of "anti-semite" is too out of proportion, based on a light stereotype like being cheap (which I have also heard about the Scottish). Being a thoughtless, presumptious, tactless person is also disproportional to what we saw. A thoughtless, presumptious, tactless comment seems just right to me. It's not as though Clay had said, "How can you have a hard time meeting women Adam, when you and your Jew buddies run the whole World Bank and Hollywood? I would think you would be have all the women you want?!?", in a cleary serious tone.
They lost the task despite the best efforts of Adam, who took no control over the subject the other groups preferred, and that he chose to present. BTW, his defense of going with the subject depspite his personal discomfort was one of the best I have heard in the episodes I have seen. I completely belived that aspect of his defense of not being fired (something akin to, "I took a subject I hated and turned it around and faced my fears and worked with it, just like I would do for you Mr. Trump on any project you give me", my spin on it). However, knowing his personal discomfort, I saw in the presentation they showed us how he did a poor job of focusing the class on a clear, concise appoach to teach something. There was no agenda or goals shown for his class, although I think people must have enjoyed it somewhat, if only for the shock value of talking about the subject (or having it talked about to them).
So, in my not-so-humble opinion, Adam should have been fired for that missing critical piece. I would have hated to see him go over Markus (who deserved to be fired a while back, during a task that both teams did well in but one eaked (sp) out a better score and won), but this task fell to Adam to PM to win, and he did not. He did win in the best way to handle Markus, but I don't understand why he would delegate the responsibility to brainstorm. Man, that was a weak delegation. I think we missed a lot of the preperation and of the classes.
[Please keep your comments to the show, and not your fellow posters.]
CheekyCricket
Nov 6, 2005 @ 10:27 pm
I don't see the problem with Adam delegating the brainstorming session to someone else. A brainstorming session is intended to gather ideas and information, and the person guiding that session should be facilitating the process, while the PM is sifting through the responses and listening for what sounds best. To me, that's what Adam did. He didn't need to guide that process; all he needed to do was to listen carefully, and I doubt Markus would have behaved differently, regardless of who was in charge. He would try to undercut the discussion, because he doesn't really like discussions, since it means that he has to listen to other opinions.
They lost the task despite the best efforts of Adam, who took no control over the subject the other groups preferred, and that he chose to present.[/quote]
But I wonder whether it would have been possible to come up with a subject that all of the team would be knowledgeable about, and would be comfortable discussing. Excel basically seemed to go with whatever subject Randal chose; from what I saw, he chose the topic, developed it into a seminar program and then wrote the script. The rest of them followed along, with some misgivings on the part of Brian and Rebecca.
Therefore, I don't think control of the subject-matter was the problem. The problem was in the structure and the delivery of the seminar, and Excel had an overwhelming advantage there, in that there was at least one, maybe two people who had experience with motivational seminars, whereas Capital Edge had no one. For me, it was as screwy and ill-chosen of a task as the dog-services task last season. Adult-education seminars require knowledge of the subject-matter and a good deal of preparation; hardly anyone jumps into a seminar with only a day or two to prepare, unless they already know the subject quite well, and know how to react and respond to an audience.
If they do jump in, without the knowledge, and without any background in delivering seminars, then they flounder the same way that Capital Edge floundered. This is why (I believe) Randal chose such a tried-and-true, if somewhat boring subject: he'd done it before, and he knew he could do it again. Expecting an inexperienced team (meaning inexperienced with educational programs) to plan and deliver a seminar in a couple of days is a setup for failure. Adam did quite well under the circumstances, I thought.
Ashforth
Nov 6, 2005 @ 10:44 pm
I need to try to catch a rerun of this one. Someone mentioned upthread that there is a Learning Annex class on doing Learning Annex classes, and I wonder if the teams received any guidance from the LA people in preparing their classes.
I thought that one of the Capital Edge team members said something about them choosing not to follow the suggested format (which I assume is what Randal's team did).
highlander
Nov 6, 2005 @ 11:05 pm
If you look up Randall's website, Randall has much experience in these types of seminars.
PinkyTuscadero
Nov 6, 2005 @ 11:18 pm
But I wonder whether it would have been possible to come up with a subject that all of the team would be knowledgeable about, and would be comfortable discussing. [/quote]
They didn't all have to participate in the discussion. I don't think that was part of the task. Adam could have delegated the speaking portion to someone who was comfortable (and experienced) with it and let the others just handle reception and check in. The whole thing was a free for all from the beginning.
The Learning Annex offers the most inane classes. Everything from how to paint a car to find an inexpensive apartment to learning spanish to tantric sex. It's not like they had to come up with something over the top or eccentric. What they needed to do was find a theme or idea that one of them was passionate about and then let that person handle the presentation. I can't believe none of them came up with a class called "How to Start Your Own Business" or "Make your own At Home Salon" (isn't Alla a salon/spa owner?) or "How to get cast on a reality tv show." CE went for the catchy/attention getting theme and didn't think about picking something that they actually understood or were familiar with. That's kind of been the running theme throughout this season. On every task, one team completely misses the mark or the point of the task. I've never seen that on the other seasons.
Excel basically seemed to go with whatever subject Randal chose; from what I saw, he chose the topic, developed it into a seminar program and then wrote the script. The rest of them followed along, with some misgivings on the part of Brian and Rebecca.
[/quote]
Neither Rebecca or Brian have contributed anything in the way of ideas on any of the tasks. I thought it was smart of Randal to not look to them for much input. Adam wanted a consensus so he could say "Well you all agreed with it!"
TheGeek
Nov 7, 2005 @ 1:27 am
On a lighter note, did anybody else notice that somebody (I can't remember, but I'm pretty sure Brian) channelled Amy for a moment and said he had a "pit in his stomach"?
Pundit
Nov 7, 2005 @ 1:27 am
I think the downfall of the team was in failing to find a good topic. Their execution was equally poor, but all of the problems (except for Clay's loose lips) stemmed from what is, frankly, a ridiculous topic. Adam as PM should have put his foot down and taken them in a different direction, especially since he was uncomfortable with the topic for personal reasons.
As I said, the execution was equally poor. They could have gleaned information from the Internet to make a credible presentation on almost anything. Even if they were not knowledgeable about presentation formats, that information is online, I'm sure. The idea of using a combination of questionnaires, breakouts, and lecture, as Randal's team did, is nothing groundbreaking, after all.
To compound his problems, Adam had to deal with egoistic doofus extraordinaire Markus and loose lips Clay. Adam did the best he could with those two liabilities. Adam will never be the Apprentice, but IMO he's a nice guy who can learn.
Calling Jews "cheap" is an OFFENSIVE stereotype. It is not a "light" comment. Adam did not go overboard in his reaction. In fact, he was magnanimous enough to accept Clay's apology. The reason I said above that I was not impressed by Clay's apology is because he made some depreciating comments that made me think he really did not give a damn about Adam's reaction.
FuManchu
Nov 7, 2005 @ 3:38 am
Regarding Clay or Markus being fired - it's true that Clay was more damaging than Markus this time. But let's remember that last week Clay was selling well - have we ever seen Markus actually do anything at all? He's survived by always being on a winning team, or always being slightly better than someone else - because if you do nothing, you'll always be slightly better than someone who actually tries but makes a mistake. It's not unreasonable that Trump should just be sick of him by now.
It's quite possible that Trump has more respect for someone who veers between success and failure than someone who is content to simply be mediocre the whole time.
JeffersonAero
Nov 7, 2005 @ 4:46 am
I finally checked out the extra stuff over at Yahoo - more great stuff there, including clips that show most of Capital Edge goofing off the night before the class and Clay telling Adam a joke about Jewish pornography. I have to wonder what (if any) sign Adam had given Clay that he (Clay) thought it was okay to tell that joke. Adam's back is to the camera so you can't see his expression, but I'd give a million bucks to see it (actually I wouldn't because I have rent and insurance due in a couple of weeks).
Also check out the clip where Randal works all freakin' night long to completely finish the presentation while the rest of Excel sleeps!! Now, okay, y'all, that's just wrong. Unless Randal forced all three of them to go to bed while he worked or he was just nitpicking over the outline. That just really chapped my hide, probably because I'm a mostly-penniless writer who has pulled more all-nighters in my freelance career than in college. I know that editing doesn't show everything and we see only a small piece of the action....probably I'm just bitter. Is there a Bitterness thread here at TA? Maybe I can found one in my spare nighttime hours.
PinkyTuscadero
Nov 7, 2005 @ 7:47 am
Calling Jews "cheap" is an OFFENSIVE stereotype[/quote]
Clay never outwardly called Adam "cheap." That word wasn't uttered in his actual statement. Adam paraphrased what Clay said and said that that's what he inferred from Clay's statement.
Quiddler
Nov 7, 2005 @ 8:30 am
because if you do nothing, you'll always be slightly better than someone who actually tries but makes a mistake. [/quote]
Unfortunately, you've hit the nail on the head, FuManchu. Because, if you do nothing, then you don't mess anything up.
Though, it seems that, thanks to Carolyn's insightful comments this week, Trump finally figured out that Markus was doing just that - waiting for everyone else to take themselves out of the game. Hmmm...sounds familiar.... (coughToralcough). Marshawn made much the same observation when she said that, while Toral didn't contribute to the loss, she also wouldn't have contributed to a win, because she didn't contribute, period. (that was Toral she was talking about, right? the shows are all running together)
So...maybe we have Marshawn to thank for Markus' firing. Hmmm... Thanks, Marshawn! I [heart] you! <heh>
ghettofabman
Nov 7, 2005 @ 8:52 am
So...maybe we have Marshawn to thank for Markus' firing. Hmmm... Thanks, Marshawn! I [heart] you! <heh> [/quote]
Hasn't she been doing nearly the exact same thing up until this point?
fangums
Nov 7, 2005 @ 9:22 am
I think Marshawn contributes; I think she does it in such a rational, reasoned manner that the editors don't think it's TV-worthy, so we don't get to see it. But I reserve the right to reverse that opinion if she gets plenty o' airtime and doesn't step up to the plate.
someoneelse27
Nov 7, 2005 @ 9:32 am
On a lighter note, did anybody else notice that somebody (I can't remember, but I'm pretty sure Brian) channelled Amy for a moment and said he had a "pit in his stomach"? [/quote]
I could be mistaken, but I thought that was what Adam said after he found out that his team lost, referring to how it felt to lose.
Pundit
Nov 7, 2005 @ 10:20 am
Clay never outwardly called Adam "cheap." That word wasn't uttered in his actual statement. [/quote]
In his public comments during the Learning Annex class, Clay referred to Adam as a "tight" Jew. That means the same thing; tight-fisted, cheap. Adam literally choked when he heard it, then tried to move on. When Adam later paraphrased, he used the phrase "tight assed" which is not what Clay actually said, but how Adam obviously heard it.
Re "bitterness," it gave me a chuckle to hear that word, from another show, another time. There is a yahoo bitterness group flourishing elsewhere to which I belong, made up of TWOP members. (To clarify, not bitter at TWOP.)
Quiddler
Nov 7, 2005 @ 10:25 am
I think Marshawn contributes; I think she does it in such a rational, reasoned manner that the editors don't think it's TV-worthy, so we don't get to see it. [/quote]
I agree, fangums. Marshawn puts her head down, works hard, keeps her mouth shut, and doesn't bring the drama, unlike some other apprenti I could mention. <Kristi, I'm looking at you, sweetie.> And that? is boring. At least for tv. They'd much rather show us footage of Kristi screeching like a harpy, or Markus imploding, than, say, footage of Randall quietly pulling an all-nighters, or Marshawn working hard.
Same thing's happening on Survivor. I can guarantee you that there are some viewers who, when you mention the name "Lydia", will still pause for a bit before saying ... "There's a Lydia on this show?"
Ah, yes, the wonderful world of Mark Burnett. As another poster mentioned: "Competent is the new boring." which = no screen time for you!
ArgentDawn
Nov 7, 2005 @ 12:09 pm
I work on a project at the moment with someone like Markus. I am convinced this guy has *some* learning disorder; as I am convinced of the same with Markus. How can he be so delusional as to view himself completely differently from who he is. He may not be the most hateable, evil candidate ever, but he is definitely the biggest moron.
I can't imagine Randall not standing out, his nose annouces his arrival everwhere he goes. He is one of the few with their personal *stuff* together though; good on him. He has got to be the favorite.
Who really cares about Clay, the odds of him lasting are zero. Adam, same. Why was anybody mentioning their ethnicity or sexuality in the lecture in the first place? Of course with no direction or context, I guess anything goes. I would have loved to have heard some Alla stripping stories!
My favorite moment had to be when they brought that giant cardboard cutout of Kelly into a scene. It looked so real. If is wasn't for the fact that there was nary a sign of life from the thing, I would have thought it was human. I am guessing the original was too busy getting coffee and boxes of nails for the drywallers.
HobokenMartha
Nov 7, 2005 @ 1:42 pm
Someone mentioned upthread that there is a Learning Annex class on doing Learning Annex classes, and I wonder if the teams received any guidance from the LA people in preparing their classes. [/quote]
I mentioned it, and I took it, and...it was pretty good. Here's the scary news: at the class I took, there were hundreds and hundreds of people there, many of them dead certain they had a Learning Annex class in them. (Of course, I'm one of those hundreds, so I'm not mocking them...I'm just saying: hundreds and hundreds.) Then, at the end of the class, they try to sell you a more expensive class..on being a professional speaker.
So I'm sure that Learning Annex, who is also using Trump as a big lure to come to their wealth seminars, did some cross-platforming and instruction for this particular episode, because they're trying to expand their market.
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