They talked on the show about putting Meredith's mom in a program to see if they can make her quality of life any better, that sounds like she's going to continue to be on the show.

Yeah I think so to at least until we find out either how long the affair with the chief lasted or wheter or not Mrs. Chief knew about it.

I think we should rename the thread Dr. Ellis Grey: Creator of Alcoholics. Of course we can't be certain Thatch actually went through an alcoholic haze after he was crushed, but it would fit.

Hmmm... We always hear about Ellis the Horrible, but rewatching Yesterday and talking about Thatcher ignoring her hickey, she seems sorta... sad. Like she was challenging him to show her she's his wife, and to take a stand or leave, but he just kept ignoring it... Though lately it's been 'she broke him', etc, it also sorta feels like he never fought for his marriage at all. Which sorta... sucks.

EDIT: To clarify, it's bad that Ellis cheated, but I can see why the standoff happened.

Shades of Addison and Derek, huh ? Did she go out and get and flaunt the hickey because it was her way of dealing with him ignoring her and having no balls and she wanted to taunt him into actually noticing her for once....or did she go out and cheat coz she just didn't give a shit anymore and Richard made her feel alive and all that jazz ? Plus, which came first, her actually not being worthy as a person, of being being paid attention to or being fought for...or Thatch just deciding he was checking out on her emotionally and didn't really care anymore and used her affair as an excuse to split ? Chicken meet egg. Egg meet Chicken.

Definitely shades of AdDerek. It seems to be a running theme in this series...

Where is Nancy Marchand now that we need her? Although Kate is doing fine.

It's very easy to make Ellis the villain - working mother, adultery - but *she* stuck around and raised her kid.

Thatcher ran off and just replaced Meredith with another kid. That's indefensible. I don't care how "mean" Ellis was to poor, pitiful puppy Thatcher. If she was such a bad person, it was doubly horrible of him to leave his child behind.

As for the Big Bad Selfish Ellis the nurse described... sad to say, but women are often harder on women bosses than they are on men in authority.

As for the Big Bad Selfish Ellis the nurse described... sad to say, but women are often harder on women bosses than they are on men in authority.

I think this is a factor is Ellis' reputation as well.

I think Ellis is such an intruiging character because of the contradictions we've seen in her. There is the side of her that is played up on the show - the Big Bad Selfish Ellis as Bkwrm said, but there are a few glimpses of her that make me want to see more of Ellis. Her scenes with Richard, when she believes they are still interns, show Ellis to be a highly charismatic woman who is capable of charm and deep emotion. I think this contrast is really interesting; in fact, she's not unlike Cristina in this way.

Edited because yet again, I have incurred the wrath of the quote gods - my quotes aren't working

I wonder when Ellis is going to make an appearance this season- other than the flashback, she hasn't been on, right? I find her to be a very intriguing character. I'd love it if her clinical trial really helped and she became mostly lucid. Especially with Adele leaving Richard.

Well, we've seen Ellis now. Yay for Ellis. Does anyone actually sympathize with Ellis? I'm just wondering. She said she never should've had a daughter because she thinks Richard broke up with her over that. So obviously her boyfriend was more important than her daughter. That's always funs to hear. How has Meredith not commited suicide or turned into a serial killer? Seriously?

Raises hand . . . I do. And I suspect that Merideth does as well.

Ellis suffers from a degenerative disease - one of the symptoms of that disease is a loss of inhibition - if a thought enters her mind, it's likely to come out of her mouth. We all have thoughts and feelings that are better left unexpressed and most of us don't have any trouble leaving them unsaid . . . Izzie being an exception here. It may well be that back in the day at some point she thought her life would have been better if she had never had a daughter but the fact remains that she was the one who stuck it out and did the best she could to raise her while Thatcher ran away . . . and is still running away (which makes it hard for me to believe that it was Ellis's fault that he wasn't around for Meredith all those years ago.

Yes, we heard Ellis blame Meredith for Richard's leaving her - we also heard her express her fears about raising a child alone and we saw her recognize Meredith last week for the first time last week and share a loving embrace with her child. That suggests that her feelings are a lot more complex than the simple wish to have never had her child.

There's really no way to get a handle on what Ellis was really like - she is far too profoundly damaged - but within those limitations, I think they have done a good job of showing that, like every other Grey's character, Ellis was a mixture of strengths and weaknesses . . . more like Cristina than like Dr. Hahn who has no use for friends or relationships.

I sympathize with both Meredith and Ellis when it comes to their relationship and doubt that it's as simple as bad hideous mother and poor angelic child.

I posted the following earlier on the episode thread in response to someone saying:



My response:

I don't think Ellis really thinks that Meredith is the cause.

I know most viewers focus on the content of what Ellis says when she talks about Meredith, but to me what is more intriguing is that without fail Meredith's name pops up whenever Ellis rants about Richard. IMO, that indicates that at the time of the affair, Meredith was never far from Ellis' mind, in fact I think it's quite possible that Ellis was preoccupied with Meredith and her inadequacy as a mother even before the affair started.

Ellis has been very selfish, so don't read this as an excuse for her parenting. I just think her selfishness came out of a self-defeating place. Ellis failed to do right by both her daughter and herself in the process. Both, mother and daughter have paid the price for Ellis' mistakes. Sure, her remarks about Meredith come out harsh and cold and wrong, and they are, but I don't know, my own life experiences tell me that these mother and daughter characters, Ellis and Meredith, don't often say what they really mean to each other. They are closed off to each other because of their own fears of being unwanted and rejected, and the whole thing has been going on for so long, it's hard to say for sure who closes who off first.

This episode is a continuation of 3.08 where Meredith realizes her mother was no superhuman being and shares a moment with her, forgiving her. Now, in 3.10, after the day Meredith had at work being close to her step family which she still doesn't know or consider her family, she realized she cannot even begin to be open with these women if she doesn't do everything she can to break down the barriers and be open with her own mother (and similarly with her soul sister Christina), as difficult as that may be, as much as the person you care about and who cares about you is pushing you away. Which is why Meredith's bravery and "invasion" of her mother's privacy in the end was moving for me. Ellis/Meredith storyline is one of the few things I find remotely interesting about Meh.

Yes, but, as with Mel Gibson, the thoughts don't come out unless they were there in the first place. That's why I have very little sympathy for Ellis. I don't get the impression that the things she says now are too far off what she thought at the time, way back when.

Exactly. Being disinhibited with the things that come out of your mouth doesn't mean you didn't mean the things you say; it just means you didn't mean to say them out loud.

T brought it from the Spoiler thread because it's about Ellis. Somebody asked:


I don't know for sure if KB was signed for the entire duration of the show, but I see Ellis as one of the main characters on the show, even if she is not in every episode.

She is a role model for a female-surgeon.

We've seen her at her lowest point in life in the last couple of episodes, as Ellis thought and acted 20+ years ago (due to her health condition). But how she got from there (20+ years ago, being a miserable abandoned woman with kid) to become Ellis The Great, The Legend of Medicine now?

I am sure we will see more on how she found the strengths to live the city (Seattle), embrace herself emotionally and concentrate on her work.

I get it why she doesn't have a respect for anybody but herself. (as nurse Falloney said). She had a very good "teachers" in her life (like bastard Webber) to become what she is now: The Great Ellis (if we forget that she is sick now). Perhaps we will get a glimpse of young Ellis via the Dr.Hahn' character, I think they have very similar personalities (albeit it's too early to tell anything for sure yet).

It's the most interesting storyline on the show. IMO.

It may be that the thought crossed her mind that she and Richard would have been blissfully happy if she hadn't been stuck with a child. But she wasn't stuck . . . or she didn't have to be. Thatcher keeps blathering about how much he loved Meredith and how devestated he was that Ellis didn't allow him to remain in contact with her . . . if we're to believe him, he would have jumped at the chance to have custody. (I don't - at least not entirely.) And yet, it was Ellis who raised Meredith . . . not Thatcher. That suggests that Ellis both loved and wanted her daughter however conflicted she may have been about having to raise her alone and however disappointed she was at the end of oher relationship with Richard.



Exactly. One of the things Grey's has done well is depicting the relationship between Mer and Ellis and showing us that it is important to both of them despite being emotionally reserved - and despite the fact that what we see of Ellis has is severely limited by the nature of her illness.

Word to you entire post, anndra, you said it well. I also see Ellis/Mer relationship this way.

Wow. Lucid Ellis is even worse than I imagined she would be. However, it was so sad when she realized she only had the one day to be lucid and after that she would be back to how she was.

After one day of lucid Ellis, I have to declare that I am officially in love with this woman.
Brilliant mind. Brave woman. Loving mother. Great teacher. Woman in love. Not without a weakness thou.
I feel like to paraphraze Dr. Hahn: the interns (friends of Mer), if they become only a part of what she is, they should consider themselves lucky.

What I like the most: the instant diagnosis(es) for Christina, Derek and Mer. She gave all of them what they needed to hear.
Wise advice and reassurance to Christina, try harder and you might get both: career and family; help in her choice with specialty.

Harsh career and life advice to Meredith- if you want to suceed as a surgeon, focus, aim for extraordinary and don't waste your time. I hope Mer will understand later that the fact that Ellis "happens in her life" was a gift, not a burden.

Derek got an instant evaluation and "injection of vaccine of truth" and in a very mild form, should I add. Webber was right when he said that Ellis will not approve Mer's relationship with Derek. In less than a few minutes of conversation with him, she nailed the truth of his problem: he is threatened by a woman who is his equal and wants someone who admires him.

Ellis is a very brave woman..woman with an incurable disease, with full medical knowledge of her condition, with no legal right to say "no" to the surgery she doesn't want. Somebody would be devastated, but not Ellis. She is a woman that has a hope, she believes in medicine, she believes that the cure will be found, that she is not done yet, that her life is not ended YET. Incredible personality.

When she realized why they were suggesting surgery instead of oral meds...... wow! Well, played by (the actress) and Sandra Oh both. As she realized she was "one of those patients with Alheizmers." It was emotional!

I wish the writers will show lucid Ellis a couple more times at least.
We still need to know more about her and Thatcher, and Ellis/Richard storlyline is so not over yet, IMO.
And I already want more inspiration and wisdom from Ellis to Mer, for Mer's friends, for Derek, for Richard.

Kate Burton is the strongest and more experienced actress on GA. She can be a different person with one single change in her facial expression and particularly expression of her eyes. She is so winning the Emmy.

*notice to myself, email/remind ABC to submit this episode for Emmy nomination for K.Burton as the best supportive actress.

Hmm. Seems to me that she did experience some hopelessness in thinking that Alzheimers took away the one thing that defined her - her beautiful, brilliant mind. And, she didn't want to get the surgery because maybe she didn't want to live anymore.

Meredith is the one who still holds out hope that a cure will be found and her mother should have the heart operation so that she will be alive if and when a cure comes around.

Maybe I misunderstood or missed some dialogue.

I am absolutely fascinated with The Ellis Grey, though. Wow, KB. (even more wow because she and EP don't even have enough age difference to be mother-daughter in reality.)

I think Mer believes that hope will come true.
Meredith VO : As doctors, we're trained to give our patients just the facts. But what our patients really want to know is- will the pain go away? Will I feel better? Am I cured? What our patients really want to know is- is there hope? But, inevitably, there are times when you find yourself in the worst case scenario. When the patient's body has betrayed them and all the science we have to offer has failed them. When the worst case scenario comes true, clinging to hope is all we've got left.

Meredith in the last scene with Ellis:..The reason I want you to have this surgery is because I have this hope that in a year, or 2 years, on in 5, they are gonna have a break through..They are gonna find a cure for Alz. And you and I will have another chance to get to know each other...

Yes, maybe Ellis didn't want the surgery because she didn't want to live with "a thing that defines who you are taken away"..But..
Ellis to Richard: (firmly) My life is so unfinished! And I am not finished!
(pretty damn good for a doctor who knows that there is no cure for her disease. )

Maybe I should add that I admire Ellis for being strong spiritually.

Do we know for sure what Ellis's specialty is? I think she is a cardio surgeon, based on what Thatcher said to Richard in S2.

Goodbye, Ellis. Can't say I am surprise Shonda killed ya. It was obvious you were going to die when dark and twisty Mer told Alex and all of us the ugly truth: she was more afraid that you don't have cancer. So, I knew you were going to die before the series ended. And, I supsected you were headed for a S3 death the moment Meredith told you that you did the best you could. Still, I was hoping against hope someone in charge would want to get at least four or five seasons worth of mileage out of the KB/EP magic before they killed you off. No such luck. Anyhow, I for one will miss the force of nature that you were while you were alive. Sorry you got such a lame send-off. If those awful lumps of yuck Denny Dylan and Doc get to make guest appearances after they die, I don't see any reason why The Ellis Grey shouldn't get the same privilege. Feel free to be a ghost roaming the halls of SGH sometime.

No kidding! Among many other things that I'm bitter and pissed off about at this episode, killing Ellis is probably my BIGGEST gripe. My love for KB/EP scenes knows no bounds. Why in God's name did Shonda kill off something that had so much possibility for a great continuing storyline for both Richard and Meredith?

From the beginning of the series it was obvious that Ellis was going to die eventually, but why now? Sheesh. Shonda really knows how to ruin a good storyline when it's at its very peak! Great work, once again, Shonda.

Oh Ellis, what a waste you were. You had such potential to have a great story and I was one that was very interested in your character development and storyline from yesteryear. Cold-hearted Shonda (& Co.) decided they have no use for you and simply killed you. How wrong they were and how lame was the ending. I would have be satisfied with you dying with dignity then just a simple plot device so Mer's mommy issues would all be resolved with a simple "You're were never ordinary" speech.

Not only did she kill an amazing storyline, but it is also something that has been on since day (episode) one. "My mother was one of the greats"... I need to grieve for the storyline.
Also, alright I can understand that you want to close a storyline, but do you have to do it so badly? Ellis almost apologizing? seriously? I want broken Meredith, not bright and shiny Meredith. I'll never get over that. She'd better show us a grieving Meredith or a guillty Derek. Seriously, does that mean Meredith is okay now? .... Bring back the Dark and Twisty please..

Ellis dying was easily the worst thing about the episode for me tonight. I loved the KB/EP interaction, and I thought Ellis was an absolutely fascinating character. And how could they basically just have her lie there and do the whole Meredith/Derek "I'm okay with that" thing, when the scrub nurse had an entire room full of people when she died, George's dad death took up 2 episodes, etc.

Kristin said the second death was added at the last minute - maybe KB wanted out. That's the only way I'd find this storyline acceptable. I miss her already.

I agree, Ellis, in comparison was a much more important character, hell she is Ellis Grey, that is some very very sloppy work. I'm hoping there will be some serious consequences for Meredith, that's the least she can do. Ellis' death should have been something big, but instead in turned into that ridiculous scene with Meredith.. the only interesting part was Derek. But I have a feeling she won't explore that.

Too bad... I liked her more than her daughter.

For real. And I only liked her daughter when she was in scenes with her mother.

Le sigh.

Okay, Ellis? Died way too soon. As someone who wasn't originally a fan of her backstory, I'm retracting that as of now. TOO SOON, Shonda.

What a waste! A great character and a great actress were sacrificed for the sake of a amateurish point that the writers tried to make by the cheesiest and worst scene of the whole episode. Congrats.

So, Ellis Grey died from a heart problem while her cardio surgeon was working on her dauther? And other surgeons were busy with the patients from the Ferry Disaster?

Ellis The Great, The Legend of Medicine, The First Female Surgeon, who invented the Grey's methods, who wrote several books, the member of UN, Who Saved Thousands Lives?!

Ellis Grey, who made it possible for Bailey, Christina and Meredith et al. to become the surgeons, ingloriously died and even her own daughter thinks it's ok, who cares?

And only her shitty ex-lover that screwed her life said that he will miss her voice, but never said he loved her? Who also said that he already dyed his hair to date some other women? WOW!

Cremation will be as soon as possible and nobody will know about it and no funerals?

No glory, no family, no love, no life and the daughter that hates her mother for telling her the truth? Ellis was right, she should never had a kid.

Shondaz, next time somebody in your family needs a surgery, don't call the Great surgeon. Not a good idea. Not for you.

Shonda, you're an idiot. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Ellis was awesome. KB was awesome.

KB and EP's scenes were the few moments that we could actually witness EP as a solid actress.

Way to go for ruining an amazing storyline so quick into the series, and for making her passing so anticlimatic and ridiculous.

Killing Ellis off right now, and in such a lame way, really cheapens all the Meredith/Ellis scenes this season for me. None of it feels organic now.

In fact, by killing Ellis the way the writers did, they really cheapened the whole show. If Ellis was not a surgeon, it won't be such a problem..
But the show is about the Field, The Game, the freakkin Medicine and the surgeons.

And if The Great Ellis Grey, the role model of The Female Surgeon, wasted as a trash on the show and even her own daughter relieved that she is gone, what is the point of the show?

It's not the problem that Ellis died during Ferry disaster and there was no decent cardio surgeon/doctor around her to save her life (it seems the right place to mention that Ellis saved thousands of ppl). Things happen in life. Accidents and disasters happen.

The problem is how the writers showed her last hours and death. Correctly, that they chosen to show it in between. Totally anticlimatic. They didn't even bothered to show her death. Because it's not important (to the writers). Who cared that some kind of old Alz woman died?
Nobody shed one tear or showed a respect in regards to her death. (One idiot only said he will miss her voice?)

Not a moment of grief that one of the Extraordinary, Great and Genial Surgeon died?! Her selfish, mentally screwed daughter and her BF (both surgeons) were given 3 hours of sappy saga, all the doctors on the show wanted Mer Grey to live - but not ONE of them cared about Ellis Grey. Cranky Shepherd tried something, but was pissed off that she was dying on the wrong day! (?)

They all are so competitive and dedicated, they want to be the great surgeons..(True to real life - 80 working hours per week is not uncommon in the field). But what happens when they really become the great surgeons?
No family, no children - or the children that hate you-, no love, no life, no glory, no respect, nobody will freakkin shed a tear when you die. Is that what they all want?

Half of the characters live/d in the E.Grey's house! She is not a Saint, Ellis Grey, she is human, and she had a difficult personality, of course! But Mer Grey sobbed for half an hour when her Dog died!

And the writers chosen to make Mer say "It's ok she died" (?!). That's it?

Ellis's funeral could be an extremely interesting event. It's an opportunity to show all the characters and what they think about the profession..etc. Too bad we won't see it.

317 is a huge failure..The writers managed to screw 4 important storylines in one epi.
Ellis, her brilliant career, her influence in the Field, and her unbalanaced personal life is the one.
Ellis and Mer, conflict of personalities, generations, child/parental issues, is the second essential one. Was.

That's because Doc, the dog, was a Mer-Der madlib symbol: Meredith, the accidental dirty mistress, is lonely and gets a dog. Derek, the married man, loves dogs. he adopts her dog because she can't keep it anymore. they go on inappropriate dates together using dog time as an excuse while his wife only gets a headache trying to take care of the dog. the dog gets sick. the dirty mistress starts dating the guy at the dog hospital. the married man freaks out and says it's over between them, the guy at the dog hospital says the dog is a goner, mer and der put their dog to rest complete with the other woman-the wife- signing the papers, Mer gets upset about letting go, "you can't throw him away like garbage, he's our dog"....Mer was crying about the death of a lot more than "her" dog. (You could replace the word 'dog' with 'comptuer,' and the above would still mean the same thing pretty much...that's why IMO this kind of symbolism only belongs in really bad fanfic.)

And, for me, that only makes the send-off that The Ellis Grey got that much lamer, and on so many levels. It sucks to be an actual character in your own right and not a straightforward symbol of Mer-Der.

I don't agree that killing Ellis off this way was a monumental failure.
The whole dynamic between Ellis and Meredith goes a long way towards explaining why Mer is the way she is.
She had a famous surgeon for a mother. A woman who was overbearing, demanding, and apparently, pretty absent when she was growing up. Nothing Mer did was good enough, but Ellis was the only parent she had. Thatcher was gone, and Mer seems to have always been told that 'he left', and made no effort to see her. So, having already been abandoned by one parent, she's desperate to please the one who's still there. Only that one's never happy with what you do, and makes you feel like you'll never be good enough. Not everyone can be a superstar...since when is 'ordinary' something to be ashamed of? Only, in Ellis' world, it is. HER daughter has to be the best, the brightest, the most everything, or else she's a failure. Can you imagine the kind of pressure that puts on a child? Always trying as hard as you can, but never, ever measuring up?
Then there's a big blowup, and Mer goes on her trip to Europe and comes back to find that Ellis has Alzheimers (I assume that's the timing from what they said in the last few eps). So now, no matter what she does, she'll never be able to show her mother that she actually is good enough. That she does things right, she graduated from med school, she's one of the top interns at SGH. She worked so hard, and did all the right things, but there will never be closure for her on this one. Mom will never give her approval because she's gone, even though she's still there.
And then something happens, and Ellis is lucid for a few days and remembers everything (except the past 5 years). Does Mer get, 'wow, you graduated from med school and now you're an intern at SGH?' Or even 'you look good, you turned out pretty' for crying out loud? No, she gets shot down. Destroyed. Again. The approval she thought she'd never get, but then Ellis was there, and maybe, just maybe. But no. Because this is Ellis Grey as she always was, and she devastated Mer. And Mer 'gave up' for a few seconds in the water.
So, the afterlife scene. Cheesy-sure. But it was a decent way to close things.

I lived this whole thing with my father. 100% on an exam? Yes, but your handwriting's horrible? Get voted Most Beautiful Senior? 'What's that black stuff on your eyes, you look like a tramp'. And it'll never be resolved, because he's in a nursing home with Parkinson's Dementia. That whole storyline was far more realistic than anyone who hasn't lived it can imagine.

Sorry such a long post. Ending my rant now.

The Ellis/Mer conflict, the Alzheimers, etc. hits very close to home for this viewer as well. But, from a writing standpoint, I think both the timing and the ho-hum nature of the send-off for Ellis cheapens everything that has happened between her and Meredith in earlier episodes. If TPTB brought in the Ellis/Mer stuff from 3.08 onward only to kill Ellis off in 10 episodes or less - not only that but to have Ellis/Mer meet up briefly in the afterlife while Mer is pseudo-dying and Ellis is really dying...........well, the story doesn't feel organic anymore, it really cheapens the experience for me. It feels like all of that only happened when it did because Shonda et al. needed Ellis to die this season, for an ulterior reason. Furthermore, as haberdine pointed out - the way the death was portrayed in such a "ya win some, ya lose some, and that's okay" manner undermines The Ellis Grey that served as an anchoring point for this freaking show from day one.