Toral is neither required to explain herself [/quote]
I take the point that once somebody has proffered a reason in generally acceptable terms it's inappropriate to badger her. However, I don't think that it's inappropriate for a boss to request an explanation when somebody is requesting to be relieved of a task they've been assigned; it's not just an automatic out to say you have personal or spiritual reasons.
For one thing, it's quite likely to come up again, and employers are going to need to know how to use the employee effectively--can you not attend the presentation because it's at a bar and you have religious beliefs about alcohol, because you have to drive to it after sundown, because you were involved in a legal dispute with the owner? The employer needs to have a chance to make reasonable accommodation.
Particularly in this situation, where Toral had been bailing right and left, I think she did need to explain herself in order to differentiate this bailing from others. Not to Kristi or Alla, but at least to Felisha. And I think that had her personal reason been a sincere and sole motive, she probably would have. (Frankly, I think that if the reason was "It will embarrass my family," the real rest of the sentence will be "and this time that's convenient for me, whereas for the rest of the show I think that's their tough luck.")
No question that this was an inappropriate harpy-fest in reponse to Toral's refusal. But just as Toral's refusal doesn't make the harpy-fest appropriate, the harpy-fest doesn't make Toral's evasion fair.
LoneHaranguer
Oct 19, 2005 @ 1:28 pm
I doubt that Trump likes being lied to by underlings. ... And, in this case, the lies didn't show off her intelligence, either -- she couldn't even keep track of them, and they were so blatant that she had at least five other people in the room who could loudly swear that they were lies ... That, plus the fact that he had already heard of Toral problems last week.... When Markus was brought in, it was much earlier in the game and nobody, including Markus, had developed that much of a record yet.[/quote]
Number one boardroom rule: Do not show disrespect for Trump. That includes being deceitful. It also includes thumbing your nose at his preferences for firing. Chris pretty much saved Markus by going too far in trying to get him fired instead of Mark. Erin, last season, did something similar pushing for Angie to be axed, and Raj, the season before, practically yelled his refusal to bring back Trump's new #1 choice for firing when that season's Chris mouthed off. Rebecca took a calculated risk, but played it smart by being very respectful and eloquent in making a case to merely delay Toral's execution while still giving him his other top candidate for firing.
CurryMasala
Oct 19, 2005 @ 4:33 pm
Just logged on. I find it amazing how some people have done research to get to the bottom of Toral and Rebecca. By the way, I looked up the internal Columbia Business School database and there is only one Toral Mehta enrolled in the class of 2002. There is no other information on her being kicked out or completing her MBA.
I am an Indian immigrant, and hail from the same part of the country (Gujarat) as Toral does. I have never heard of customs that prohibit from wearing costumes. Toral is popular for shooting her mouth off time and again during interviews when she has camera time. Why did she not talk about the religious and cultural explanations? I mean, she has been completely open about her thoughts, then why not this particular line of thought? Moreover, she said that she did not wish to embarrass her family and 'employers'. Employers do not come under 'religious and cultural' aspects. I am not supporting the 'blondes'. Had I been in Toral's place where a team of people would insist that I wear a costume, I would be likely to think that some part of racism is involved. I cannot believe that Kristi even called her a bitch! I mean, that is so unacceptable and should be enough to kick her off the show/interview. But at the same time, in a way, Toral brought it upon herself. I have worked on many teams, and it is most frustrating when a member not only does not contribute, but also actually has the nerve to comment negatively on and be happy about a failure for which the rest of the team members have worked so hard. I could never stand such a 'team member' and would look at every opportunity to get her out of my team. Oh but I would not use the same tactics that the Heathers did.
Its like a chicken and egg story. It is unclear as to who started the 'rivalry'. I mean, the Heathers have been mean about every PM, so maybe they keep looking for a scapegoat. But Toral did say in the boardroom that they are incompetent because of her educational 'superiority' and background. That is totally unacceptable. Toral has left no stone unturned in making it clear that she thinks most of the tasks are beneath her. How can she expect to get hired? Especially in corporate America where you get your own coffee, photocopies, and the like. In India, you do have people who do those things, but considering that Toral has been here in the US for so many years, I am surprised she expects to be waited on and looks down on administrative assistants and the like.
Where I used to work in India, we had a much older guy who did the administrative stuff, but since he was much older, we never used his name without an Indian suffix of respect, and even my manager did the same. So I am surprised that there are the likes of Toral. And her attitude has NOTHING to do with the Indian caste system. My impression of Indians is that we are a hard working lot, have humility, and treat people with respect. And all this is despite the caste system and everything. Toral's biggest problem is her attitude, and that has nothing to do with enthnicity, just as the Heathers' attitudes have nothing to do with being Southeners or Americans, unless they are racist. Toral truly deserved to go, and as Marshawn put it across in an excellent manner, Toral is too weak a player to contribute to either the success or failure of a team.
Moreover, being in Bollywood is no big deal. Bollywood churns out the maximum number of movies each year, and so many of them flop. There are many extras that fade away as soon as they come. Maybe Toral wants to enhance her profile to get a role in Bollywood, but she won't succeed because Apprentice plays in India too, and people will definitely see her arrogant self which will inevitably lead to bad publicity.
And I really cannot believe how Toral could have the nerve to insult Trump, being on his own show in his job interview. She literally commented on his poor choice of candidates in the show. It is better for Trump to make one mistake with Toral than so many mistakes with choice of the other candidates.
After getting to know of Rebecca's age, I am impressed with her strength of personality, although I don't think she will be a finalist simply because she also tends to shoot her mouth off like Toral. She did say that only she and Toral were qualified to compete against the men, and she failed as PM. I like Jen M. She is trying hard to fight the 'beauty queen' image and has been contributing on every task. She also has the ability to put personal feelings aside and come up with actual reasons for the loss of a task.
By the way, what does 'Heathers' mean with respect to the 'blondes'?
Miss Alli
Oct 19, 2005 @ 4:50 pm
I don't think you can expect that if you're in a group that has a task to do, you can just say, "I don't want to do this particular thing for personal reasons," and people are somehow required to accept that at face value. Until the Boardroom, she never articulated any reasons that didn't apply to everyone else equally -- basically, she argued it was embarrassing and it was beneath her. However she phrased it, that's what she was saying. That's why she brought up Carolyn. I don't personally believe it had anything to do with religious beliefs. She just realized that she was being marginalized, and it was because she had acted like a jerk, and she resented being called out for it.
Tough darts. She made her bed, and then she tried to get out of lying in it by claiming her reasons were "cultural," which I actually think is... pretty low. When "personal reasons" means "I don't want to," you deserve every bit of blame you get. She wasn't a team player. She wouldn't suck it up and do something she didn't want to do. She had no respect for any of those women, any more than they had respect for her. Unfortunately, she got more heavy-handed about it than they did, and she pissed off her few remaining allies, and she's gone. Which is good, because I couldn't stand her.
ConanGrammarian
Oct 19, 2005 @ 5:07 pm
Let me add my 2¢ to the whole Toral and her ethnicity vs. perception of being a lazy snob. Toral went to Wharton and Columbia. She worked at Goldman-Sachs. She lived in New York (Goldman-Sachs and Columbia) and Philadelphia (Penn U. / Wharton). She has had significant exposure to American culture. She chose to come here. She has enough experience in the US now that even if she did have a "caste system" mentality, she should know how to accommodate the cultural differences in her everyday routine by now.
Add to that she APPLIED and AUDITIONED to get on this show! To say any part of it was demeaning(ful?) and beneath her is disingenuous.
No, her actions on the show over the past two episodes were belligerant, arrogant, destructive to her team, and not at all in keeping with someone who wants to be a business success in the US.
She deserved to be fired. As Marshawn put it, when asked by Trump if Toral was really the reason they lost, she didn't participate. She sat out the project and hoped that her not having been a direct cause of the loss was enough to keep her out of harm's way. Sitting out a task so you don't get pinned as a direct cause of the loss is no better than having gone into the Dairy Queen meeting sucking on a McDonald's milkshake.
yadayada
Oct 19, 2005 @ 6:40 pm
ConanGrammarian:
Sitting out a task so you don't get pinned as a direct cause of the loss is no better than having gone into the Dairy Queen meeting sucking on a McDonald's milkshake.[/quote]
BWAAHH!
The point I was trying to get across in my previous posts is that the overlapping cultural and religious beliefs has a hand in Toral having the beliefs that she does. You can't really pinpoint and say it is religion or it is cultural or it is personal. I can understand how it started off being personal, then turned into cultural etc.
And even if she did apply and audition for the show, she might have thought that she could excuse herself from certain aspects if it went against her belief system and that the she may be able to contribute in other ways. She even went so far as to say this when the Coven were hassaling her to get into the suit.
Finally, even if Toral chose to come to the U.S. and make a home for herself here, she has obviously accomodated with some cultural differences by (allegedly) getting through some WASPY schools and corporations. Is it too much to ask that they make an exception for her the one time she asks?
Let me ask this: If the teams were asked to create a public campaign advertisement against teen pregnancy, wouldn't Kristi have a right to be upset and find it demeaning? Would it be wrong if she asked not to be the spokesperson as she has a personal problem with it? It is easier for us to understand Kristi's feelings because it is something that most people in western society can identify with.
Let me also ask this: If Toral wasn't the horrid person that she is, would we be more likely to give her pass when she said she wouldn't be able to do it cause of personal reasons?
auntiemame
Oct 19, 2005 @ 8:03 pm
Yes.
CurryMasala
Oct 19, 2005 @ 9:27 pm
Yadayada, your point is well taken. But to answer your question, had Toral not been such a horrid person and had she put forward objections to wearing the costume, I think she would have gotten more support. She would then be seen as a person who is genuinely interested in the good of the team and contributes to each task, and hence deserves to be excused from wearing the costume. But since she is not a teamplayer and put herself in a position where her team realized that she does not wish to contribute, obviously they used the costume as a way to make her contribute in any way they could. The costume thing was not justified, but Toral did not put herself in a better position of trust - her team did not trust her sincerity because she had shown none in her past performance.
Moreover, Toral said that she did not wish to embarrass her employers and family. Unless her employers were specifically Indian and hence would be against the costume, the only reason for her objection seems to be that she felt that it was beneath her. Had she contribted to prior tasks and had Rebecca not excused her in the boardroom by saying that only she (Rebecca) and Toral were capable of staying in the competition, I believe that Toral would have left the door open for a benefit of doubt when she mentioned cultural reasons.
Yes, Toral may have gotten used to the 'American' way of things, but that was not reflected in her behavior because if I know correctly the average American does not look down on administrative assistants in the corporate world.
What happened in the boardroom by Rebecca was very unfair for the rest of the team. Jen W was no good, but she did take on the bulk of the work, while Toral screwed up and the negative comments on the questionnaire were against technical training. Toral is basically stupid, because she actually said in the boardroom that people screwed up on the technical front, when she herself was the only person who screwed up and deserved to be fired.
Madhoo
Oct 19, 2005 @ 9:30 pm
Amen, CurryMasala! If Marshawn had some problems with wearing the costume, I think the team would have given her a pass considering she had contributed so far. Toral? She already admitted she has not been giving it her all - she makes a half-assed attempt to be PM and then refuses to wear the costume. What is there to trust?
CurryMasala
Oct 19, 2005 @ 9:36 pm
Agreed, Madhoo. By the way, where are you from? I mean, where in the US? I hope Jacob does not respond to this post... lol
ConanGrammarian
Oct 19, 2005 @ 10:07 pm
Is it too much to ask that they make an exception for her the one time she asks?[/quote]
Yes. Because she didn't ask. She demanded...without reciprocity. She gave nothing and expected a "no questions asked" accommodation.
And it wasn't "the one time." I suspect her life is full of moments like this.
MightyThor
Oct 19, 2005 @ 10:33 pm
She chose to come here.[/quote]
I thought she was born here, as many are.
yadayada
Oct 19, 2005 @ 11:28 pm
Thank you for your insightful post
CurryMasala (damn your name makes me hungry).
However, I would like to ask about this though:
She would then be seen as a person who is genuinely interested in the good of the team and contributes to each task, and hence
deserves to be excused from wearing the costume. [/quote] [emphasis mine].
I guess this where you and I differ. To me it does not matter if someone deserves to be excused from an activity because of personal reasons. Once a personal belief requires that you not do something, to me that is the end of the matter epsecially if that belief is based on a complex structure of culture, religion and upbringing that is hard to communicate to others of not the same culture, religion and upbringing.
Moreover, Toral said that she did not wish to embarrass her employers and family. Unless her employers were specifically Indian and hence would be against the costume, the only reason for her objection seems to be that she felt that it was beneath her. [/quote]
I don't think it matters that her employers need be Indian. I know I sometimes I catch myself from doing something at work for fear of the fact that I don't want the action misconstrued as "oh it must be an Indian thing." I am based in Canada, and regardless of how multi-cultural this country is, the profession I am is still mostly dominated by whites and I know I can't do anything that is the least bit embarrassing because I don't want to be looked down upon. Again, I can understand Toral's position on the matter, however, I do wish she was not horrid in conveying that sentiment. It is exactly as Toral said in the first episode of Melissa, "she has a point, but the manner in which she communicated it sucked." (I'm paraphrasing here")
And finally:
if I know correctly the average American does not look down on administrative assistants in the corporate world [/quote]
Unfortunately, most immigrant Indian children (not first and second generation but the one's that moved over either in high school or university years) do look down upon administrative assistants. The reason being that the parents came over for here to provide their children with better opportunities etc, not for their children to be administrative assistants.
deepta1993
Oct 20, 2005 @ 12:09 am
I come back to the thread after a week and find a discussion of the Indian caste system and Bollywood and heavens knows what else. As someone who has moved to the US a year ago from India, I think I am qualified enough to say that Toral's reasons were bullshit. There is no religious tenet that tells you not to wear a costume. Several traditional dances including Kathakali have complex makeup and costumes.
I do not know how the caste system came into the thread but I find it personally insulting. It is a similar thing to slavery here in the past and it is a sore point for most Indians who are trying to eliminate a barbaric social custom. I find that most second or third generation American- Indians know extremely little about India and Indian customs. All their knowledge about India is still stuck in the 60's and 70's when their parents left the country.
Anyway, the final word is that Toral was totally unjustified in using her religion as an excuse and she deserved to be fired.
CurryMasala
Oct 20, 2005 @ 12:21 am
Yadayada,
I do agree that a person can be excused without questions asked on cultural grounds, no matter what. The question is, what if that person is using it as an excuse to not contribute? I am going by Toral's past performance, and I can completely relate to a team's frustrations when a member does not work but makes excuses all the time and criticizes a lot. I lost a best friend because of a similar attitude, and such people are 'free riders'. My problem was when she said she did not wish to embarrass her employers, and then used that as a religious reason. I am not able to put the two together.
And although parents come here to provide opportunities for their children that may help them be more successful, some also come here for the 'American Dream' and end up doing other tasks that would otherwise be looked down upon in India. However, I do get your point. In India, my parents would be like 'you better study and do something with your life, else no nice guy will marry you, and we will marry you off to some average guy and you will end up with tons of kids to take care of'... lol... So maybe Indian parents with kids here say 'you better be something more than an administrative assistant.'
But honestly, I still don't understand Toral's looking down upon administrative assistants despite her being here for so many years. Even Indians in India don't do that! I mean, I recently graduated with an Ivy-league degree and will soon start working, and while looking for job opportunities I have found that administrative assistants in New York with a few years work experience earn a lot more than what I am being offered currently in my job. So clearly they are successful in their own right, and if Toral, being in Wall Street still looks down upon them, she is clearly delusional which she has successfully demonstrated.
I guess my discussion ends here, and I am looking forward to a new episode where someone else screws up!!!
yadayada
Oct 20, 2005 @ 12:25 am
CurryMasala:
I guess my discussion ends here, and I am looking forward to a new episode where someone else screws up!!![/quote]
Heh, me too!
deepta1993
Oct 20, 2005 @ 12:37 am
However, I do get your point. In India, my parents would be like 'you better study and do something with your life, else no nice guy will marry you, and we will marry you off to some average guy and you will end up with tons of kids to take care of'... lol... So maybe Indian parents with kids here say 'you better be something more than an administrative assistant.'
But honestly, I still don't understand Toral's looking down upon administrative assistants despite her being here for so many years. Even Indians in India don't do that! [/quote]
What is wrong with you people. This just proves what I said about 2nd generation Indians thinking all Indians are still stuck in the 60's. If Toral had acted like that in India, she would have been fired too just as she deserved to be in the USA.
And Toral looking down at other people has nothing to do with her being Indian. She does that because she is a jerk. Also "Indians in India" don't look down upon anybody. Stop making generalisations. As an "Indian in India" I resent that.
Extraem7
Oct 20, 2005 @ 5:06 am
Toral is the way she is because she is Toral. She is not representative of being Indian. I am not going to claim to be an expert on Indian people, but I have of course met and known some Indian people and have never once IRL met one with such a superior attitude. Rather, they take pride in doing well in school and in working hard, but unless I have sincerely missed something in them, I have never before gotten any superiority vibe.
Stereotypes are stereotypes, but each human being is also an individual, not just an "Indian" (or "white" or "black", etc.).
I will admit that I was on Toral's "side", until she mouthed off in the Boardroom, then even I wanted her to go for sounding so ridiculous. Half of what she said didn't even make sense. I particularly wanted Kristi or Felisha to be fired, as one of them actually deserved it more based on the actual task. But Toral was stupid enough to make a fool out of herself in the Boardroom, so she practically asked to be fired. Is she a bitch? Without a doubt. Is she as much of a bitch as many viewers are saying? I highly doubt that. Did she really deserve the psycho-sorority treatment from the blonde clique? No way. But she absolutely deserved to be fired. Now, is she really that smart? Not from what I saw. She's definitely not dumb, but she didn't impress me as being oh so intelligent either.
[ETA]: I've worked as an administrative assistant and was not the least bit offended by Toral's comments, btw.
Madhoo
Oct 20, 2005 @ 8:37 am
I think Toral brought Indian culture and religion into the discussion when she thought she could effectively shut the discussion down by claiming religious issues. If she weren't such a slob already, I might have given her ideas a little more credence. As it stands, she looks like she is making excuses than genuinely being conflicted.
CurryMasala, I am in Dallas.
fposte
Oct 20, 2005 @ 10:47 am
If the teams were asked to create a public campaign advertisement against teen pregnancy, wouldn't Kristi have a right to be upset and find it demeaning? Would it be wrong if she asked not to be the spokesperson as she has a personal problem with it? [/quote]
Interesting question. I'd think Kristi of all people would welcome it, actually, but I don't know (and I have missed some footage); let's say she was upset. I don't see upset as a right or a not-right, it's just something that happens. I would say that if the team says "Kristi, let's use you as a spokesperson because of your personal history," she can certainly say that that's the very reason she doesn't want to be spokesperson; it's a difficult personal issue for her and she wants to keep it separate from her work. If she still wants to be a hotshot in this job process, she'd be wise to then say exactly what she would do and she proposes to redress the gap left by her refusing of the assignment.
For a closer parallel, I think if Kristi had refused to wear the costume citing "personal reasons" and no expansion of same and no indication of what she would do instead, it would have been the act of a "friggin' goober" as well. That's even without confessionals cackling about other people looking stupid.
Basically, I don't think the Kristi situation you propose is the same situation as Toral's, because it's explicit as to why Kristi has personal reasons, and it's also about the separation of personal issues from work, whereas Toral was trying to bring them in. It also seems a little bit like some folks think the strong possibility that Toral's reasons were totally fictional doesn't matter, and I think it does matter, and that people don't have a right to be taken at their word in a job interview. And in most work situations, it's not just being excused from an activity, it's requiring somebody else to do the work. I don't think there's a right to stick somebody with your work just on your say-so.
I work for a state university, and the state regs on request for reasonable accommodation, on legally required accommodations, are pretty clear, and they include explanations of the cause of the person's limitation. I don't think that people seeking accommodation that's not legally mandated have a right to a lighter burden than that. That doesn't mean a supervisor can't choose to judge an individual situation with greater leniency--my current assistant (who could kick Apprenti ass without breaking a sweat) has earned a flexibility that I'm not legally required to give, while a lackluster or new employee would need to give me a specific explanations. Essentially, the first version is kind of what Rebecca granted Toral last week--she felt that Toral had earned merit that outweighed her performance deficit. This week--no.
Jacob
Oct 20, 2005 @ 10:50 am
Stop talking about the boards on the boards, stop generalizing about people, and start talking about the episode. That's the topic, nothing else.
CurryMasala
Oct 20, 2005 @ 11:28 am
Deepta1993,
Maybe you should read my previous posts to get a complete hang of what I am trying to say. Nobody here is trying to generalize about Indians; rather I was supporting the claim that we Indians do not look down upon administrative assistants. Anyways, do read my entire post, all of them, before making assumptions on my statements. By the way, I am an Indian immigrant and have lived in India for over 20 years. So I am equally representative of 'Indians in India' as you are.
Sorry Jacob, end of discussion here.
sesstr
Oct 20, 2005 @ 2:00 pm
Wait, but isn't it possible Toral was speaking about her personal religious/spiritual tenets? Why do we have to assume she was talking about some form or other of organized religion?
Sarahfeena
Oct 20, 2005 @ 2:32 pm
Wait, but isn't it possible Toral was speaking about her personal religious/spiritual tenets? Why do we have to assume she was talking about some form or other of organized religion? [/quote]
You are onto something here! In her TV Guide interview (a link was posted by someone on the "Toral" thread), she basically said that she has no idea if it's against Hinduism to wear the costume, it's against her PERSONAL spiritual beliefs that humans should have respect for animals and not dress up like them. It still doesn't make sense in light of this task, since Zip wasn't an animal, which proves even more IMHO that she was totally BSing the whole thing.
marketdoctor
Oct 20, 2005 @ 2:39 pm
Toral said in a TV guide interview that she was talking about personal beliefs (or her personal interpretation of an otherwise-organized belief system.) DT might have assumed (as we did) that when she said "religious reasons" that it was a religious belief that could be found somewhere outside the Toralverse.
Since most people who have religious restrictions against doing something get those from other people, it's a reasonable thing to expect, but it seems like Toral's beliefs come from a place so far within her that she can't explain it using an outside belief system (and it might have as much connection to a known belief system as my religion teacher's understanding of the caste system c. 1978 fits what life in Bombay is actually like, or the difference between how somewhat nutty Toral seemed in this episode vs. how nutty she seemed on her home page, TV Guide Interview, exit interview, etc. It's a good lesson on the dangers of jumping to conclusions, and I apologize for any errors I have made.)
Miss Alli
Oct 20, 2005 @ 3:03 pm
humans should have respect for animals and not dress up like them[/quote]
HAHAHAHA! I really wish she had said this during the episode, because I would have loved to see it included in Jacob's oh-so-brilliant recap. Because... dude. You shouldn't dress up like a Zip, because it's disrespectful to REAL Zips, which, after all, God made.
This is the issue, to me -- it's not whether cultural/spiritual beliefs do or don't justify flaking on a task. It's that those aren't the reasons she did it in the first place. "Personal reasons" here didn't mean "cultural reasons." It means "I'm too good for that," just like anybody else from any culture who is an obnoxious, self-important snot considers herself too good for anything she doesn't want to do. If I say I don't want to wash dishes because it's against my religion, so I will only fold the napkins into swans, you have the right not just to wonder whether that's a good reason, but also whether I'm completely freaking MAKING IT UP. Which Toral was.
People should have respect for animals and not dress up like them... that is rich as all hell, people. One of the greatest reality-show moron quotes of all time.
Sarahfeena
Oct 20, 2005 @ 4:47 pm
You shouldn't dress up like a Zip, because it's disrespectful to REAL Zips, which, after all, God made. [/quote]
Hee hee. I mean, really...could she reach any farther to come up with a "spiritual" explanation for all of this? She must have been up all night trying to figure it out..."I know! It's because of my respect for animals! I am SO SMART that I'm sure I am the ONLY ONE who will know that Zip is NOT an animal!"
"Personal reasons" here didn't mean "cultural reasons." It means "I'm too good for that," just like anybody else from any culture who is an obnoxious, self-important snot considers herself too good for anything she doesn't want to do.[/quote] Yup...that's pretty much the whole thing in a nutshell.
LoneHaranguer
Oct 20, 2005 @ 5:07 pm
Moreover, Toral said that she did not wish to embarrass her employers and family. Unless her employers were specifically Indian and hence would be against the costume, the only reason for her objection seems to be that she felt that it was beneath her. [/quote]
She had already been marginalized. Now the group wanted to take the concept to a whole new level by hiding her in a costume. Sounds like an insult few people would stand for (or should, really).
Toral is basically stupid, because she actually said in the boardroom that people screwed up on the technical front, when she herself was the only person who screwed up and deserved to be fired.[/quote]
Was she really, or was she just the only one highlighted by the producers (knowing her fate and with an eye to what would play well on tv)?
sesstr
Oct 20, 2005 @ 5:17 pm
She had already been marginalized. Now the group wanted to take the concept to a whole new level by hiding her in a costume. Sounds like an insult few people would stand for (or should, really).[/quote]
I agree, LoneHaranguer. Toral's arrogance was reprehensible, but I don't fault her for not wearing the costume. In fact, I find it quite refreshing to witness someone stand up to a group of bullies. There are far far too many people in this world who do things just because everyone else tells them to do so.
CurryMasala
Oct 20, 2005 @ 5:33 pm
Yep, Toral was marginalized, and as I mentioned before, had I been in her place, I would have definitely felt that some amount of racism was involved. However, Toral's explanation was not correct either. I am glad she stood up to the bullies, but she has not contributed to any task, which is what I don't like about her.
And yes, I agree that editing plays a big role in manipulating personalities. But nobody is there holding a gun to the head asking the candidates to speak. Kendra chose to not speak unless necessary, and she came across as level-headed (to me). Toral chose to have a lot of camera time and even now she is arrogant. The TV Guide interviewer did not force her to speak; she displayed her arrogance of her own accord. Editing cannot be blamed if a person chooses his/her words and says them to the camera - it shows what the person actually thinks.
Anyway, I still think that Toral is really stupid.
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