TWoP Forums > 4-4: "Ice Cream of Genie" 2005.10.13

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fanciulla

Oct 16, 2005 @ 11:55 am

Rebecca I can feel for because I can understand why she went against Toral in the Boardroom. She put herself on the line for her, clearly expecting that she would take on the PM responsibility which she failed to do. [/quote]
What I find odd about the whole Rebecca thing is that she acts as though she's Toral's boss. Or at least that she thinks Trump considers her as worthy an advisor as George/Carolyn. She kept saying "she believed" in Toral. It's not clear why she believed in her, except going by her CV. Or why it even mattered that she believed in Toral. My response was "and you are...?"

The cliqueness of the team is not surprising, and this is not the first team where this has happened. And, like it or not, it also happens in the corporate environment. Is it professional? I don't even think the answer matters. It's a sociological phenomenon with group psychology blandishing. Also, it seems that the word "clique" is used by the people who aren't in that particular group, not by the actual groupies. As someone else posted upthread, Toral and Rebecca could very easily have been seen as a clique by the others. Yes, a clique of only two, but the point is it's all about perception.

Actually, I thought it was interesting how, post-task, Felisha (?) said to Toral that had she known Toral had a religious objection that she (Felisha) would have backed her (Toral) up. Was she sincere? Maybe, maybe not. But I'm willing to believe her on that one.

auntiemame

Oct 16, 2005 @ 12:30 pm

What I find odd about the whole Rebecca thing is that she acts as though she's Toral's boss. Or at least that she thinks Trump considers her as worthy an advisor as George/Carolyn. She kept saying "she believed" in Toral. It's not clear why she believed in her, except going by her CV. Or why it even mattered that she believed in Toral. My response was "and you are...?" [/quote]

WORD, fanciulla. I like Rebecca, and I think so far she's playing this game brilliantly. BUT that included a very convenient flip on Toral this week. Her whole sacrificial martyred "I regret that I have but one Toral to give for my Trumpy" act in the BR bugged me. It was Toral she was sacrificing, but she somehow made it play like she (Rebecca) was the noble one, giving up her only hope.

It was the way she hung her head like a repentant daughter when Trump asked her who he should fire and she said, her hair covering her face, "Toral." And Trump's whole fatherly, "finally! You see what I was telling you!" response, to which Rebecca whined, "I wouldn't have felt comfortable if I didn't give her a chance to see what she could do." There was a very weird dynamic there, like they were discussing whether to institutionalize a crack-whore, gas-station-robbing family member and Rebecca was the only holdout. I mean, it's great for Rebecca, because it looks like she's the Viceroy's favorite. But it was not accomplished without some manipulation.

Ashforth

Oct 16, 2005 @ 12:37 pm

I thought it was interesting how, post-task, Felisha (?) said to Toral that had she known Toral had a religious objection that she (Felisha) would have backed her (Toral) up. Was she sincere? Maybe, maybe not. But I'm willing to believe her on that one.[/quote]
Me, too. It's hard to imagine that any PM would try to force a team member to do something that the team member said was prohibited by his or her religion. How would one explain that in the boardroom? "Well, Mr. Trump, she had to eat the pork, even though it's against her religion, because I was PM and I said so! Screw her religious beliefs!"

If only Toral had dreamed up her religious objection at the time that she was objecting...

hells belle

Oct 16, 2005 @ 12:43 pm

Just in time for this branding characters excercise, there was an article in our local paper about this very topic. It's pretty interesting to see what's done in the real world.

BibiBella

Oct 16, 2005 @ 12:54 pm

I mean, it's great for Rebecca, because it looks like she's the Viceroy's favorite. But it was not accomplished without some manipulation.[/quote]

For someone only 23 and likely only having a few years' full-time work under her belt, Rebecca is very, very savvy. I can't imagine most 23-year-olds holding their own like she did.

kar

Oct 16, 2005 @ 12:59 pm

One of my first posts so here goes :)

WORD, fanciulla. I like Rebecca, and I think so far she's playing this game brilliantly. BUT that included a very convenient flip on Toral this week. Her whole sacrificial martyred "I regret that I have but one Toral to give for my Trumpy" act in the BR bugged me. It was Toral she was sacrificing, but she somehow made it play like she (Rebecca) was the noble one, giving up her only hope.[/quote]

It's amazing how Rebecca can effectively slice her "best friend's" throat and still come out of it appearing the hero, I still cannot work out how she does it.

The Zip costume thing though, was a bit of a farce. I mean, the Bettys were displaying a kind of high school passive aggression in asking Toral to suit up. They knew it would humiliate Toral, and if she accepted, they could snigger. If she argued against it she was not a team player. Lose, lose for Toral really.

In that sense I felt a little bit bad for Toral, she was definitely being ganged up upon.

That said Rebecca did the right thing. I get the feeling that Toral really brought a lot of the problems upon herself. The Bettys picked up on her contempt and it was all over from then for Toral. Rebecca to have any sort of longevity in the 'game' had to turn on her.

Rebecca for her valiant defense of Toral the week before was saddled with the responsibility for not only her own performance, but also that of Toral's. When Toral committed harikari in the board room, Rebecca had no alternative but to desert her or she would have been finished herself.

I'm still trying to work out how Rebecca manages to get away with some of her comments though. I guess it is her appearance. She has a very 'honest', attractive, without being overtly stunning, face. Big eyes, and a disarming smile coupled with a kind of girlish demeanour which seems to help dig her out of any hole she finds herself in. I can't help but adore her, especially when she shows some steel as she did this week.

She seems to have a bit of fire in her belly and more than a little dollop of intelligence that I don't see any of the other contestants possessing. Marshawn and Randal aside, I can't see any other compelling candidates, and neither of the aforementioned two are anyway near as interesting as Rebecca.

heebiejeebie

Oct 16, 2005 @ 2:12 pm

The only thing I would say to that, in Kristi's defense (and I am in NO WAY condoning the rest of her or the Uniblondes actions, I really can't stand her) is that when they were having that talk, Kristi came right out and said, "...don't hang back Toral, you owe it to Rebecca after she stuck her neck out for you, and if slack off in any way I'll be all over you..." [/quote]

My problem with this and, despite Toral sucking to the nth degree, the problem I can see Toral having is that in the long run as Trump pointed out to Kristi (who sucks too and Trump told her that) was that ultimately Toral had to prove herself to trump. Not Kristi and not the coven. One fo the reasons I think they lost was that the coven focused way too much on Toral. Whether out to get her or just worrying about her. They focused on Toral. What a bitch she was, what she was doing, what she wasn't doing. Even in marginalizing her and then subsequently freezing her out entirely, they put more effort and thought into it than they did in marketing and the creation the task demanded.

Kristi telling Toral that she would give her no slack if they failed and Toral didn't pull her weight? I can handle that. if Kristi had given the same speech to Rebecca for leading the team to defeat the week prior. If Kristi has stood up and taken some of the responsibility for the team's lose with the fitness task. And if Kristi did not make it sound like Toral owed Kristi and the coven anything that Toral did not owe herself if she expected to win. And ultimately it came down to that. Toral not realizing what she owed the competition. Not Kristi or any other blonde. Or brunette. Toral failed herself. not her team. That is why she was fired.

Toral's firing was redemption because she was a delusional unqualified twit. What was redeeming was that it left at least two of the exact same ilk on her team.

CandyRapper

Oct 16, 2005 @ 2:14 pm

And I just noticed that whenever Toral mentioned her team tonight she referred to them in the third person: "them." As in, not "me." It's especially noticable when she says "they" lost. If we needed proof that she does actually think she is above these people, we have evidence of it right there.
[/quote]

What really frosts me on this issue is that if Toral had been white and the sorority sisters had been "visible minorities" she'd not only would have been called a racist, but the media would no doubt would have a piece about racist views of an Apprentice competitor.

Lisetta

Oct 16, 2005 @ 2:17 pm

Rebecca's interesting and manipulative, I'll give her that.

But of all the women she could have formed a clique with (Marhawn, Jen M), why Toral?

Toral has seemed arrogant, lazy, and bitchy from the beginning. If Rebecca was "fine" with Toral until it was clear Trump wanted her GONE, I'm suspicious of her character.

She didn't just "get along" with Toral; they were a team. In my experience, "birds of a feather" really do.... so I'm not at all convinced that Rebecca's not just "all about Rebecca". I think she may just be better, less overt, at manipulating people--and feeling superior to them--than Toral is.

Nor was she a very good PM on a very botched task.

So, so far....I'm just not at all impressed.

CandyRapper

Oct 16, 2005 @ 2:28 pm

Toral has seemed arrogant, lazy, and bitchy from the beginning. If Rebecca was "fine" with Toral until it was clear Trump wanted her GONE, I'm suspicious of her character.
[/quote]

I disagree on that. After Toral didn't step up and prove that Rebecca's faith in her was justified, Rebecca looked like a fool and was boxed into a corner. Admitting a mistake is just as important as loyalty.

BibiBella

Oct 16, 2005 @ 2:53 pm

Toral has seemed arrogant, lazy, and bitchy from the beginning. If Rebecca was "fine" with Toral until it was clear Trump wanted her GONE, I'm suspicious of her character.[/quote]

I disagree on that. After Toral didn't step up and prove that Rebecca's faith in her was justified, Rebecca looked like a fool and was boxed into a corner. Admitting a mistake is just as important as loyalty.[/quote][/quote]

Yes, admitting mistakes is very important, but I'd love to know -- and Trump asked Rebecca this but she never explained -- exactly what Rebecca saw in Toral that was so worthy. Toral could not operate the TV/tivo/whatever at the tech expo and I didn't see her do anything showing outstanding skill/talent in any previous tasks (maybe someone else did), so what did Rebecca see?

My guess is she thought that Toral, being a Wharton grad and a Wall Streeter, was 'better' and more qualified than the other women. Rebecca is a grad of the Univ. of Chicago and while that's not an Ivy League school, it is very Ivy League-like in terms of a superior education, etc. Plus Rebecca has worked in the banking industry so there's that commonality with Toral.

I'd guess Rebecca is a bit of a 'school snob' and work snob and thus saw Toral as being someone from a more similar educational/work background and therefore superior...and thus her alliance with her. And that does raise questions about Rebecca's character/judgement.

AdrienneP

Oct 16, 2005 @ 3:01 pm

Kristi telling Toral that she would give her no slack if they failed and Toral didn't pull her weight? I can handle that. [/quote]
Oh I agree with you, Toral didn't owe anything to or care what the Uniblondes thought of her. My point was just that, as much as I dislike Kristi, she never hid the fact that she was watching Toral and would be gunning for her if she made a mistake. She was right out in the open with it, which is commendable in a way. Still hate her, though.

Admitting a mistake is just as important as loyalty.[/quote]
So much Word to that. Yeah, Rebecca sucked as PM, but I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt for now.

Scherzo

Oct 16, 2005 @ 3:03 pm

Yes, admitting mistakes is very important, but I'd love to know -- and Trump asked Rebecca this but she never explained -- exactly what Rebecca saw in Toral that was so worthy. [/quote]
At 23, Rebecca may not yet be an accurate judge of character. Toral had been friendly and helpful to Rebecca (outside of the game constraints in going to the ER with her) and Rebecca may have extended that to Toral's professional character. Rebecca would not neccessarily have known of Toral's "fly under the radar" strategy and even if she had, would not have believed that Toral would not abandon that strategy for this task. (That was majorly dense of Toral.)

BibiBella

Oct 16, 2005 @ 3:10 pm

Scherzo, good points, but I'm wondering if Rebecca is really only 23. She's pretty savvy in other ways (like how she's playing Trump and her behavior in the boardroom) and her resume on the NBC/TA site seems like she's done an awful lot to only be out of college a few years...

On the Toral thread, it's already been discovered that Toral did an internship at Goldman Sachs (and was not extended a job there, which apparently means you screwed up according to a poster in the know) whereas on her bio she says she worked at GS. Yes, interning is working, but the implication is different.

So I'm thinking that some of the candidates have really embellished their resumes to sound more impressive. And given all that Rebecca has done work-wise, I'm questioning her age or how much she embellished her bio. Here's what is written:

She graduated with honors from the University of Chicago, earning degrees in economics and pre-law. As a Chicago-based investment banker, she structured mergers and acquisitions, as well as equity and debt transactions. Prior to that, she traded short-term interest rate options on Citigroup's foreign exchange desk in London. Outside of business, Rebecca founded a non-profit organization, raising over $750,000 to support disenfranchised children. In conjunction with this effort, she lobbied state and federal government officials, speaking at a wide range of national conferences and sharing the stage with Al Gore and Colin Powell, among others. She also reported on-air, wrote and helped produce hard news, features, and entertainment segments for a weekly show on an NBC affiliate in her hometown of Minneapolis. She is currently a financial journalist in Chicago. [/quote]

So to have been an investment banker (without an MBA, no less, although some do make it without an MBA), an options trader in London, a financial reporter in Minneapolis and now a financial journalist in Chicago -- all by 23? Something doesn't add up.

Pundit

Oct 16, 2005 @ 3:50 pm

Had she worn the costume, there would have never have been that line of questioning. Then the only strike against her would have been her failure to become PM. Had she been smart, she would have just pushed to be PM, and they wouldn't have had that argument in the first place.[/quote]
While on the one hand, I agree, blockedwriter, on the other I can envision a scenario in which Toral wears the costume and Trump says, "All you did was wear the costume for 15 minutes... what else did you contribute?" To which she would have no answer, really. I think he was (rightfully) gunning for her before the BR began, because of her elitist attitude (which he did not mention, damn him) and dubious work ethic.

Re Rebecca and her conversations with Trump in the BR, I think that she's managed to talk to him as an *equal*, unlike the others. She may end up presuming too much familiarity and it will hang her (my prediction, but we'll see...). I think she was on the line in the BR herself, not necessarily for a firing this week, but on the line nevertheless, and I think she sensed it. He was pushing her hard re Toral, partly to justify his decision to fire Toral and party to test Rebecca. I think if she had defended Toral completely, he would have had his irrefutable proof that she's "inflexible."

henry518

Oct 16, 2005 @ 5:12 pm

He was pushing her [Rebecca] hard re Toral, partly to justify his decision to fire Toral and party to test Rebecca. I think if she had defended Toral completely, he would have had his irrefutable proof that she's "inflexible."[/quote]
In the last two BR I actually thought Trump went easy on Rebecca. IMO, JenW took most of the heat. When Rebecca gave that weak argument about being flexible Trump could have gone off on her like he usually does to other candidates. Instead he actually complimented her for being strong. When Trump pushed Rebecca to admit that Toral should go, I thought it kind of looked like a mentor pushing a prized student.

blocked writer

Oct 16, 2005 @ 5:17 pm

While on the one hand, I agree, blockedwriter, on the other I can envision a scenario in which Toral wears the costume and Trump says, "All you did was wear the costume for 15 minutes... what else did you contribute?" [/quote]

That's possible, with Trump. But I seriously doubt if he would have fired her just because of that, Pundit. She did throw out some ideas during the brainstorming session, and even though they were crappy ideas, so were others. I don't really remember Trump firing anyone if they contributed, no matter how small the contibution, if it didn't cause the loss. Maybe I'm forgetting someone.

And when you think about it, it's debatable whether wearing the costume is or isn't a significant contribution. Both costumes were silly-looking, and someone on the teams had to wear them. Since Zip didn't need to be fitted like the men's genie did, I imagine almost anyone on the team could have done it, unless height was an issue. But Toral could have spun it that no one wanted to wear it, so she did it for the team. Mark displayed a sense of humor about it, and when clearly no one else was chomping at the bit to do it, he obligingly did it.

I personally think Toral's chances were seriously diminished when she refused to fight to be PM. But I suspect that had Toral worn the costume, Trump would have been forced to focus on the lack of branding on Zip, which would have put Felisha on the chopping block. I don't think the issue of how big or small a contribution wearing the costume was would have even come up.

But I have enjoyed debating this with you, Pundit. You always give me food for thought, even when we don't agree. ;-)

WinkyDink

Oct 16, 2005 @ 6:47 pm

Toral would rather have been "fired" than give in to the Uniblondes AND "lower" herself to wear the costume.
But she lost the moral high ground, as she merely looked, not superior or enlightened or independent or feisty, but unco-operative and mendacious in the way she handled the boardroom show-down.

Pundit

Oct 16, 2005 @ 7:38 pm

Yes, blockedwriter, as I said, I can see it going either way if she had worn the costume. Although this raises an interesting thought:

But Toral could have spun it that no one wanted to wear it, so she did it for the team.[/quote]
I wonder if Toral has *any* spinning skills. She seems so woefully off-base for someone so allegedly smart.

WinkyDink raises another interesting thought: that Toral would rather be fired than wear the costume. My first instinct is to say no to that, but upon reflection, that's exactly what happened. Which raises another interesting question: Did she know she'd be fired before heading into the BR? Or did she assume all the blame would fall to the coven and their zippy idea? I daresay we all knew exactly how it would turn out, although we had the benefit of the editing team to point the way for us.

auntiemame

Oct 16, 2005 @ 7:48 pm

So to have been an investment banker (without an MBA, no less, although some do make it without an MBA), an options trader in London, a financial reporter in Minneapolis and now a financial journalist in Chicago -- all by 23? Something doesn't add up.[/quote]

BibiBella your instincts are right IMO. I think what's happening in Rebecca's resume is that she is including her undergraduate experience and internships. I think Rebecca was a student leader, one of the innumerable high-achieving kids at good schools who are trotted out for conferences and speaking opportunities. The Democrats under Clinton were HUGE on that sort of thing. And that would explain the "lobbying" and the Al Gore thing. I think Rebecca probably founded her non-profit during college. The on-air reporting business, I think was probably a summer internship at a local TV station while she was in college. I know two people who had similar experiences.

As for being an options trader -- well, considering it was her first job out of college, there probably wasn't a whole lot of trading going on, since when you're 22 they don't exactly hand you complicated options and multimillion-dollar trades to do with as you will. I tend to think she had to do more number-crunching. As for "structuring" mergers....pfffft. I wrote something about that in the Rebecca thread a couple of weeks ago. She wasn't structuring anything at that age.

The lack of continuity in her history worries me. IMO no one on the planet goes from options trading to investment banking to financial journalism unless each job ended badly. You have to build some roots in finance. She never wrote anything for Crain's Chicago or any other biz pub before Feb., the month The Apprentice auditions started. But, hell, whatever she did, she sure learned how to work a boardroom.

ETA: I just googled "Becky Jarvis" and "nonprofit" and "children" and found this. Apparently she founded it while she was in high school, along the same "student leadership" lines described above. To get to the mention of her, do a CTRL-F on "Jarvis."

http://www.cyfc.umn.edu/publications/conne...bs/99winter.pdf

I also found that she was a "reporter" on TV also during high school:

She's a reporter on K-A-R-E television, the co-chair of the Minnesota Alliance with Youth, on the board of directors of the National Youth Leadership Council AND she's an honor student. 16-year old Becky Jarvis is no slacker. She will be speaking today at the statewide summit of the Minnesota Alliance with Youth in Minneapolis...sharing the stage with Colin Powell and Vice President Al Gore. She says young people want to work for social change, but need help from adults to find out how to do it.[/quote]

http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/prog...e19980525.shtml

BibiBella

Oct 16, 2005 @ 8:03 pm

auntiemame, I think you're right about the nonprofit stuff being from high school and the way her other jobs worked. That said, I agree with you about the lack of continuity in her work history in such a short timeframe. I doubt she was ever an investment banker - maybe she worked for a IB firm, but at a very low level - but whatever she did, she went from one to the other to the financial journalist thing very quickly (and that's even considering that she might have graduated college young, like at 21).

And yes, she sure knows how to work a boardroom! For someone so young (heck, even older), that is impressive.

tvmovielover

Oct 16, 2005 @ 8:13 pm

When Trump pushed Rebecca to admit that Toral should go, I thought it kind of looked like a mentor pushing a prized student.[/quote]

That is what an apprentice should be; a young person who is being mentored or taught how to do a craft or job. If he/she already knew how to do the job, there would be no point in being an apprentice. Trump should be supporting the youngest candidates and seeing who among them during the 16 week interview learns from their mistakes enough to become worthy of being his apprentice. It is getting boring to see people near or over 30 win. They are beyond the apprentice stage. That is why Kendra was the best choice last spring and why Rebecca or Adam might be the best choices this fall. Randall is excellent but he has already passed the apprentice stage.

LolaLilaLilly

Oct 16, 2005 @ 8:36 pm

When Toral went into her little thing about the other women being good at "setting up baloons, cheese trays, and event planning..." I wonder why Trump or the Viceroys didn't ask that, if that was the case, they lost the previous "week's" task?

After watching this again, boredom an all, I still hate the way the "Coven" ganged up on her and harassed her to wear the costume when she had already said "No."

And, of course, Kristi's "STEP UP TO THE PLATE Tor-ul!"

Kristi really greats on my nerves the more I listen to her.

When Rebecca came back her drawl on welcoming her.
Interviewing and say "gut" like she's choking on the "u."
Her "bullcrap" interview (and why was she wearing gloves in that interview? Wasn't this filmed over the summer???).

Then there's last week when she saw Rebecca's cast and she said, "Oohhh you broke it!" as if she was really talking about Rebecca's latest bedroom conquest.

nubbs

Oct 16, 2005 @ 8:45 pm

After watching this again, boredom an all, I still hate the way the "Coven" ganged up on her and harassed her to wear the costume when she had already said "No."

And, of course, Kristi's "STEP UP TO THE PLATE Tor-ul!"[/quote]

I watched the episode again this evening and I have to agree. It was a pretty nasty piece of ganging up and if I were an employer and saw them pulling that shit they'd all get a warning, except for Kristi, who'd be out on her ass sliding on the asphalt for referring to a co-worker as a bitch in a meeting.

Funny seeing the women's mascot this evening, it looked to me like a cross between SpongeBob Squarepants and an old style gas pump.

meowing

Oct 16, 2005 @ 8:48 pm

It is getting boring to see people near or over 30 win. [/quote]

I would agree with this except for the fact that there are career changers out there who may be over 30, 40 or 50 that would still be apprentices in their new professions.

RainbowRat

Oct 16, 2005 @ 9:07 pm

I'd guess Rebecca is a bit of a 'school snob' and work snob and thus saw Toral as being someone from a more similar educational/work background and therefore superior...and thus her alliance with her. And that does raise questions about Rebecca's character/judgement.[/quote]

I don't agree. I think Rebecca is something of a liberal crusader (if you check her background like somebody above did on this page), so she may have sided with Toral partly in reaction to the clique-ing up of the Uniblondes. Just because the self-styled "cool" ones have passed negative judgment on someone doesn't mean they are not worth knowing or rooting for, Rebecca could have reasoned. In Toral's case, well, she proved herself not worth Rebecca's backing. But I think Rebecca makes it a point NOT to be led by the clique's opinions.

I also think the reason Toral got fired this week is that she has nothing more to show us or Trump that makes her <corporate Kool-Aid drinker>worthy of the job.</corporate Kool-Aid drinker> She had a chance to show different or better qualities, but she just gave us more of the same. It was the same with Jen W last week. Trump thought he had more to find out about Rebecca, so he kept her on in spite of her defying him, whereas Jen W is a sweet person. Period.

LolaLilaLilly

Oct 16, 2005 @ 9:10 pm

See, I've come to conclusion I should be in marketing. Because with both the Lambo and this task I came up with ideas that I, and may I've spoken with, think are great ideas.

For example, here. (I said this earlier in the thread, but I think it got lost.) That I would've made a Penguin Mascot that was basicaly a "cool cat"/troublemaker in a DQ Storefront. (Think of the Arby's ovenmit, and some thing Dominos had a few years back.) There'd be a commercial with him hiding from work, a co-worker is looking for him and picks up an up-side-down trashcan. After a moment "Blizzie" falls out. Cut to an upside-down image of the Blizzard. "Blizzie falls, Blizzards don't. DQ Blizzards, thick enough to eat upside down."

Probably not the best idea, but better than "Zip" and his blizzard firehouse, and the Genie of "Going to steal your kids while they sleep and make them into a blizzard!"

And what was with Jen M. and her "Teens love gadgets! As long as you have gadgets..."

WTF?! Did I miss something? Was Zip handing out iPod Blizzards or something?

BibiBella

Oct 16, 2005 @ 9:22 pm

RainbowRat, just because Rebecca might be a "liberal crusader" does not mean she's not a snob. Snobs exist on both sides of the aisle.

And given that Toral is the only other woman there (IIRC) with an Ivy League degree (even though Rebecca's is technically not Ivy League, but it's the closet of the others) and she has the banking background, I still this could be valid.

Lisetta

Oct 16, 2005 @ 9:33 pm

That I would've made a Penguin Mascot that was basicaly a "cool cat"/troublemaker in a DQ Storefront.[/quote]
That definitely sounds more interesting for a broader group than what this team had.

I'm still confused what -either- team was going for with the mascot. Wouldn't you think a mascot should be...cute...or funny...or sexy...or even just...edgy?

What was Zip's appeal supposed to be? Could they possibly have though Zip was...cute?

And I came in the middle of the other team planning when they were dressing up and talking about drag queens. For a moment I thought their approach was going to be DQ = drag queen, which at least would have been....something different.

But why a genie? Was she supposed to be cute? funny? sexy? What kind of impact/audience were they going for?

I guess I just don't understand how these teams wound up with Zip and Jeannie as the best they could think of for Dairy Queen mascots.

Pundit

Oct 16, 2005 @ 9:40 pm

Speaking of mascots, just to add a little color to the discussion, today I was at an event working alongside two people dressed up as chocolate chip cookies (unbranded) who were handing out cookies, representing the Doubletree Hotels.

LolaLilaLilly

Oct 16, 2005 @ 10:02 pm

To expand.

Mascots CAN appeal to teens.

The Budwiser Frogs anyone?

Also enjoyed the guy's rationale on their mascot appealing to teens.

"Because she's sexy."

"WTF?" Even is they used a real, sexy, woman I don't see how that'd appeal to teens all that much to shop DQ. The idea of a mascot is more to implant the name of the company into the mind's of the customer, not so much make them want the actual product.

That's why the "Budwiser Frogs" were so ingenius. Their whole gimmick was to drill the name of the brand into the viewer's minds which they did in a brilliant, smart, and funny way.

Zip and the Jennie the DQ Genie?

Not so much.

auntiemame

Oct 16, 2005 @ 10:09 pm

RainbowRat and BibiBella could it be possible that you are both right? That Rebecca felt a connection with Toral because of their similar educational and professional backgrounds, but also stuck with Toral because of the ganging-up of the Heathers?

I do tend to think that both Becky and Toral are elitists. IMO it's difficult to overestimate the feeling of predestination that an Ivy League/UChicago gives you, especially to young people starting out. Part of the reason students go to these schools is because they buy into the idea that the name means something and that it will give you advantages in life.

By the time they've graduated, they earned those diplomas, worked their asses off for them, been showered with admiration by fellow students and their parents for their excellent work and talent and cleverness. For the course of their educations, almost everyone around them has been brilliant, well-groomed, poised, and savvy, with a common aspirational set of values. They want to be lawyers, bankers, CEOs.

Now, take two of these people and put them in a room with Kristi, with her squeaky voice and screaming of the word "bitch," who sells golf-club memberships. And then add Felisha, with her horrible skin, circa 1992 hairstyle, and relative inability to express herself intelligently. Then throw in Jen M., whose primary claim to fame is that she won a beauty pageant (and who was home-schooled-- no name brand there!). And then throw in a dash of Alla, who is a former stripper.

Becky and Toral can't even process a culture clash of that magnitude.

There's certainly nothing wrong with what Kristi, Felisha, Jen M. and Alla do in life. But three of them work for themselves and one works for a relatively no-name golf club. Kristi, Felisha, Jen M. and Alla are off the grid, as far as the aspirational Ivy League dream of Becky and Toral goes.

So the fact that they're all at the same job interview is, like, a wormhole of cosmic proportions to people like Rebecca and Toral.

IMO given the values instilled in Rebecca and Toral by these top schools, and their subsequent top employers -- who tell them, at every juncture, "the name brand matters, Wharton matters, Goldman Sachs matters, Citigroup matters" --they can only reject the existence of the others in this interview as a challenge to their own values and what they probably consider the natural order of things, which is that their goddamned Ivy League degrees matter.

And vice versa-- the bloven probably has a huge chip on its collective shoulder about Ivy-League elitists, and is obsessed with proving, "see? Your degree don't mean shit, because we're consolidating our power and calling the shots in this game now."

Lambchop

Oct 16, 2005 @ 10:19 pm

BibiBella

Oct 16, 2005 @ 10:39 pm

auntiemame, I think you solved the mystery! Seriously, I think it is a combination of both what I said and what RainbowRat said.

But what about Marshawn? You left her out. I'm guessing that she was a non-entity as well (even though she wasn't part of the Coven) since she didn't go to an elite school and yes, she did the beauty pageant thing (never mind that it was Miss America which is considered the 'elite' of pageants) and of course, Rebecca and Toral would never do that kind of thing (never mind that past title holders and runners-up have been from Stanford, Harvard pre-law, etc.).

Lambchop (love the name!), it sure likes Rebecca doesn't stay put very long given several jobs post-college and if I were a future employer, I'd be concerned. And the way her bio is written certainly embellishes things since she is certainly not (I'd bet) an investment banker...she might have worked for an IB, but working for one does not make you one.

vitaminc

Oct 16, 2005 @ 10:45 pm

Re:Kristi

Her "bullcrap" interview (and why was she wearing gloves in that interview? Wasn't this filmed over the summer???).
[/quote]

I do remember seeing footage of Toral and maybe Rebecca outside chatting and it was snowing. I did wonder if Kristi was wearing Zips godawful gloves, however.

Sars

Oct 16, 2005 @ 11:19 pm

The day they held the open call, it was sleeting (I remember this because I was threatening to go down there and spy on the proceedings by pretending to be an applicant, but the weather was so bad, I bagged it). I don't remember which month that was, but winter in NYC can drag on until, like, early May.

Mobius

Oct 17, 2005 @ 12:00 am

Great analysis auntiemame! ITA.

I read somewhere that when you first meet a person and they do something that bothers you, you are more likely to blame it on the person if you don't like him/her but on the situation if you do, i.e. "what a bitch" v "she must be having a bad day".

I can easily see both Kristi and Felisha seeing Toral and Melissa (who were both personality trainwrecks), as well as Marshawn (who is one of my favorites) as so different from them that the non-Covenits are never really given a chance. Melissa and Toral have only themselves to blame, but the treatment of Marshawn (shut up Kristi. You sucked as PM) as a PM as well as in this task makes me think that they are marginalizing her as well. (Example: "everyone in this van" Marshawn had no coherant contributions to you, but was the only one who was able to wing the DQ exec's branding question?).

And Kristi? STFU.

marylou

Oct 17, 2005 @ 1:14 am

Random thoughts:

The Phrase Which Cannot Be Spoken must now be retired from the lexicon due to overuse.

The task sucked and what both teams did sucked. Market research much? I guess not.

The shot of the cheese tray being slid onto the table? Priceless. The execs' reaction? Of Trumpian proportions.

Toral was awful to say the least, but she was marginalized to an extent where no matter what happened this week, she was totally screwed. The Heathers really set her up to fall, and fall she did. I see a reorg of the Coven where Jen M. and Rebecca ally, and Marshawn possibly stops FUTR and gets involved only long enough to protect herself from the Heathers, which are a dangerous force if only by their deviousness and numbers. Can't wait to see them eat each other alive. Burnett, if there is a god....

Menwise, Clay is the spawn of Satan and must be eliminated as soon as possible. What's with the exemption?

PS. Someone asked upthread about who was wearing the black hooker shoes in the BR. I'm 90% sure it was our favorite Russian stripper.

Obladi

Oct 17, 2005 @ 2:33 am

The task sucked and what both teams did sucked. Market research much? I guess not.[/quote]

The mens product seemed to hit what the DQ people wanted, or so they suggested. They thought the tranny genie appealed to mothers, daughters, and men as well. The presentation itself was very good, particularly the flow and the word choices. They were able to present a great deal of information with a minimal amount of distraction or excessive talking, the opposite of that car task where they have a dozen ideas yet the car people had no idea what the concept was about.

If Clay came up with the presentation and he nixed the stupid jingle, he was a big part of their win. So I think they were right to grant the exemption.

kar

Oct 17, 2005 @ 2:36 am

It was interesting the way Trump handled the exemption, rather than asking who thought Clay should be exempt, he asked who thought he _shouldn't_.

Sticking your neck out to say he shouldn't be exempt is a lot harder than just not voicing your support that he should receive exemption. You could see it in the faces of the guys, they kind of squirmed, they wanted to speak up, but none of them had the stones to do so.

That said, they did win quite easily, and judging from the post task interviews we probably only saw the very worst of Clay.

blueguy

Oct 17, 2005 @ 5:49 am

The Heathers really set her up to fall, and fall she did.[/quote]

Which is why Toral's statments about her intelligence and the intelligence of the uniblondes is absolutely hilarious. If Toral was so smart and they were so dumb - how come Toral got sucked in bad?

Bye-bye Toral! hehehehehehehe

Well fellow apprenti followers - it is Monday morning. Time to step up to the plate, exhibit your skill set, and knock one out of the park -:)

Obladi

Oct 17, 2005 @ 7:44 am

You could see it in the faces of the guys, they kind of squirmed, they wanted to speak up, but none of them had the stones to do so.[/quote]

Some of the same guys squirmed and hesitated when they had to vote an exemption for Randall, who is not only great to be around-friendly to work with, but had buried his grandmother only a few days previous. They should hesitate about offering exemptions to anyone, since they are giving someone a free pass in a game where they should have as many targets as possible.

Even Josh, who compared Clay to Hitler and called him a bitch over and over and over and over, said Clay did a 'decent' job. If Josh is using the word decent, then to me it means Clay did a very good job. Or maybe most of his worst behavior was at the start and aside from telling them to stop the jingle he was reasonable the rest of the time. He cut the fat from Excel's plan and his presentation skills were fine. He knew what to say and how to say it, even though he seemed insecure as PM as well as during the presentation. When they won, one of the other guys had to pull him into a hug and he stammered out a 'thank you' when they gave him the exemption. No smirking or boasting or any arrogance like you might expect from a complete asshole. If the team loathed him their immediate reaction may have been to steer clear, like on the Martha version when Amanda won, her team's reaction was to cut their eyes or stare into space - she was the only one celebrating (and in a smug way).

I've known a lot of insecure people and they end up being like Clay, an obnoxious hardass, or Elizabeth, a baby who couldn't make any decision. A lot of business people would rather deal with the hardass, as long as he knows what he is doing.

I think his bad behavior in both recent episodes was played up because Excel won and the editing people had to create some suspense. Both times his insecurity jumped out, first when he dug himself into a hole over Tivo and then as PM. Maybe now that he has shown he can lead, he will calm down. From what I saw so much of what he did was based on raging nerves because he is out of step with many of his teammates. Finding someone else to scapegoat in episode three did not work for him so he decided to lead in episode four to prove to himself or the others that he is their equal. He was never actively cruel or tried to slack off on the job or came up with stupid ideas, all moves that are the most likely to permanently alienate team members.

That said, they did win quite easily, and judging from the post task interviews we probably only saw the very worst of Clay.[/quote]

In the bonus footage the only complaints some of them had were him being too hands on, not his personality or attitude.

If he treats people this way all the time then he should be fired but nothing I saw in either episode three or four was behavior that made him a bitch, or Satan's spawn, or some of the other words used to describe him. I think if he becomes grounded and takes some humble pie and keeps working hard he can go far in the game, although his not having any confessionals during the reward segment might not be a good sign for him. Do the winning project managers usually have confessionals on their rewards? Then again so many people on that team are silent they must have decided to suddenly give a few of the mimes dialogue. A little late...

henry518

Oct 17, 2005 @ 9:18 am

That is what an apprentice should be; a young person who is being mentored or taught how to do a craft or job. If he/she already knew how to do the job, there would be no point in being an apprentice. Trump should be supporting the youngest candidates and seeing who among them during the 16 week interview learns from their mistakes enough to become worthy of being his apprentice. It is getting boring to see people near or over 30 win. They are beyond the apprentice stage. That is why Kendra was the best choice last spring and why Rebecca or Adam might be the best choices this fall. Randall is excellent but he has already passed the apprentice stage.[/quote]
I have no problems with Trump supporting Rebecca. It just that I'm not seeing how Rebecca handles pressure when he treats her like a kid. It's obvious she thinks before she speaks but how well would she do if Trump applied the same pressure he applied to the other candidates?

If an "apprentice" should be someone under 30 than they really should not accept thirty-something candidates.

...Rebecca felt a connection with Toral because of their similar educational and professional backgrounds, but also stuck with Toral because of the ganging-up of the Heathers?[/quote]
I havent seen the Heathers ganging-up on Toral until the group-of-two was formed. If Rebecca brought in the people who deserved to be brought into the BR than Kristi, Felisha, and Alla might not be so tight of a group.

BibiBella

Oct 17, 2005 @ 9:44 am

If Rebecca brought in the people who deserved to be brought into the BR than Kristi, Felisha, and Alla might not be so tight of a group.[/quote]

I also think Rebecca made a fatal mistake (in terms of stoking the fires of the Coven and perhaps even causing the creation of it) when she said in the BR that "Toral is the only woman who has the intelligence and skill set to make it to the end and go up against the men and have a chance at winning" (my paraphasing but that was the essence of what she said).

That was a very swift slapdown to the other women, and while Rebecca seems savvy, that was a very, very dumb thing to say. She immediately alienated the other women and set out a message that she and Toral were a clique themselves...and, in a way, that she -- by noting that only Toral was smart enough to compete against the men -- was in a league with Toral herself.

She does seem bright and savvy, but that comment definitely reflected her youth and inexperience, IMO, and certainly set the other women off. Now it doesn't mean the others should be all junior high clique-ish and 'heathers' about it, but I can see how the fire was fueled.

Rosalyn578

Oct 17, 2005 @ 9:54 am

Toral was awful to say the least, but she was marginalized to an extent where no matter what happened this week, she was totally screwed. The Heathers really set her up to fall, and fall she did.[/quote]

Toral only has herself to blame for the fall. She should have been PM. She should have made a better effort to get involved in the task. They gave her ample opportunity to do that before the nonsense with the costume got started. Her teammates all sat down with her and they told her she needed to work harder on the next task to regain their trust. Trump was already pissed with her from the previous task and fully expected that she would make an effort to prove Rebecca right. Just about every other person on this show who’s been put on the spot like that has volunteered to be PM on the next task (e.g. Elizabeth, Sam) because they get that he expects that person to try to prove him wrong. Even Markus had enough sense to modify his behavior when Trump challenged him.

I’m surprised that so many people think Toral didn’t deserve to be fired. No she didn’t have anything to do with the loss but had they won she wouldn’t have had anything to do with that either. I would much rather have an employee who makes an effort and fails than one who sits around twiddling her thumbs all day and contributes absolutely nothing. She was by far the worst performer on the team.

natashapierre

Oct 17, 2005 @ 10:07 am

She does seem bright and savvy, but that comment definitely reflected her youth and inexperience, [/quote]

The funny -- and troubling -- thing to me about it, though, is that I think this is the kind of thing you should have learned in kindergarten ... In other words, it seemed to me to reflect more that she's a person who just doesn't get it when it comes to handling people -- although she's a good arguer and debater, clearly -- and this is the kind of thing that you don't have to have spent a long time in the work world to learn, necessarily. You could well have learned it in the sandbox -- *would* hvae learned it in the sandbox if you had real human-management talent, it seems to me -- and clearly she didnt'.

To me, it goes along with the fact that -- it seems to me, anyway -- her judgment on Toral's potential was pretty much based solely on what Toral told her about Toral's potential.... That also doesn't say a lot about her ability to understand and deal with people, and, again, I suspect that's less youth and inexperience than just lacking certain talents, strong as you may be in others.

BibiBella

Oct 17, 2005 @ 10:39 am

natashapierre, you're right -- Rebecca should have known from just plain old common sense that you don't bash people publicly. She might have thought what she said, but you don't go around saying it.

And I agree, she probably based her opinion on Toral based on what Toral told her, plus I think she was very impressed by Toral's Wharton degree and Wall Street experience, so that swayed her too. None of the other women have an Ivy League degree (or even Ivy League-like, as Rebecca's is) and there is definitely a snobbery among Ivy Leaguers versus the "rest of us" who went to non-Ivys.

auntiemame

Oct 17, 2005 @ 11:07 am

If Toral was so smart and they were so dumb - how come Toral got sucked in bad?[/quote]

Couldn't Rebecca and Toral have miscalculated the strength of the "stupid" covenites? I think Rebecca's "Toral is the only one who can win" speech was the typical fight-to-the-death we're-bringing-out-the-big-guns trash talk. It's classic brinksmanship, kamikaze, "all this shit ends here with speaking some truth to power" kind of talk. I think she thought getting Jen W. fired would show the coven how powerful Rebecca and Toral really are. Rebecca, unfortunately, was probably playing the endgame, but she failed to realize that they weren't near the end, and that her words would only end up enraging the coven into exerting their power.

The flip side is that her hubris (and Toral's) about their educations and professional backgrounds didn't enable them to see how powerful the coven could be in successfully undermining them. I thought Rebecca's weary interview -- "Toral will not be able to successfully work with this team" was a kind of revelation for Rebecca, in terms of showing the power of many. Isn't the whole point of alliances to make up for the shortcomings of each member by balancing them with the strengths of others? The coven did this successfully. Alla is savvy, Kristi is passionate (in her own sick way), and Jen is pretty (and that seems to be enough for now). None of the coven individually are the "total package," but that works in their favor because they're willing to band together to make up for that. Whereas, Rebecca and Toral did believe that they, individually, were the "total package," and thus remained relatively weak in terms of evaluating the power of the others.

ryan506

Oct 17, 2005 @ 11:24 am

Clairedawn: I wonder what Toral's attitude would have been if Felicia had said, "Okay, we are going to draw straws to see who wears the costume."[/quote]Toral would've probably had the same attitude, especially if she was the one selected to wear the costume.

I'm curious about one thing--Team Penis' costume designers needed to take measurements to make sure the costume fit whoever was going to wear it. Was this not the case with the women? Or was the "Zip" outfit more of a "one size fits all" kind of deal?

lisetta: Rebecca's interesting and manipulative, I'll give her that.

But of all the women she could have formed a clique with (Marhawn, Jen M), why Toral?[/quote]I suspect that, had Toral not accompanied Rebecca to the hospital when she broke her ankle, their weird little clique wouldn't have gained as much traction as it did.

henry518

Oct 17, 2005 @ 12:08 pm

I agree with BibiBella and Natashapierre. I forgot all about Rebecca's comment in the BR on how 'Toral is the only woman who has the intelligence and skill set to make it to the end and go up against the men and have a chance at winning'

I'm still kind of impressed with Rebecca.

I'm curious about one thing--Team Penis' costume designers needed to take measurements to make sure the costume fit whoever was going to wear it. Was this not the case with the women? Or was the "Zip" outfit more of a "one size fits all" kind of deal?[/quote]
I thought they had to measure for the "Zip" outfit as well. I thought that was why the coven (Felisha, Kristi, and maybe Alla) came back -- to force Toral to go get measure.

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