TWoP Forums > 4-4: "Ice Cream of Genie" 2005.10.13

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BibiBella

Oct 15, 2005 @ 10:42 am

I'm loving the fact the Marshawn shows another side of professional women. She isn't nasty, petty or vindictive. She looks like someone who wants to win, and will work with her team, whether she personally likes them or not. [/quote]

I so agree. And that is the sign of a leader. I'll be curious to see how she does as a PM and I'm hoping she does well. So far she reminds me of Amy Henry, the only woman (JMO) on the Apprentice who knew how to diplomatically (for the most part) work with everyone, including the most vile, catty women and who seemed bright -- and because of that, was wanted by both teams when Trump started mixing things up.

clairedawn

Oct 15, 2005 @ 11:33 am

Watched the CNBC re-run last night...a few more thoughts:

Once again, I was just struck by what a disaster Zip was. Felicia even made the comment, "Guys, we're their demographic. Start thinking about what we want!" And a group of "cool" "trendy" "professionals" (as I'm sure they consider themselves" would want Zip??

Also, when Felicia met with the costume designer, she specifically said to him, "I'll tell you, there are NO Dairy Queen symbols on here."

I think Donald should have done one of his double firings....Toral needed to "step up" (ugh!!!) - in fact, Donald even told her after assigning them the task "I'm expecting to see great things from you Toral" and she didn't "step up" so that's enough reason to fire her. But Felicia was so bad and missed the entire point of the task - the 2 executives from Dairy Queen were the "Chief Brand Officer" and some other "Product Branding" guy....George said it well in the Board Room. Dairy Queen is spending a ton of money on branding and they did zero branding. So Felicia should have been fired too. She sucks as a project manager and as a person!

Then there was Jen M's comment during the presentation..."Zip is energetic and full of energy." Thanks Jen... And then she followed up by saying, "When someone needs cheering up, Zip goes zip zip zip to the rescue!" Oh boy. The whole thing was so bad.

auntiemame

Oct 15, 2005 @ 11:37 am

But then she didn't do it, then the three women ganged up on Toral and were SCREAMING at her to don the Zip Suit where she, again, said no. She said she had personal reasons against wearing the suit and didn't want to do it, they should've dropped it there. There was no call to gang up and tell at her. [/quote]

One of the most disturbing parts of this episode was shown last night on the CNBC repeat. Felisha asked Toral, in exasperation, why she wouldn't wear the costume, and Kristi screamed in response, "because she's a BITCH!" And Toral didn't freak out or scream back, but just calmly said something like, "we need to get back on track here." Toral may be arrogant and deluded, but the Heathers are, seriously, like a gang. I've hated Kristi from the beginning because she just looks like a thug, but she really acted like one last night.

Another reason to hate Toral? She wears colored contact lenses.[/quote]

How do you know this? [/quote]

You could see it in the episode last night, especially in the conference-room fight scene (when they were brainstorming) and the snotterview. There's the telltale bright-green ring around her pupils.

And, to answer another poster, I'm not kidding about that. A self-proclaimed "woman of stature and respect" and businesswoman wouldn't wear colored contact lenses. Can you imagine supposedly pitching a multimillion-dollar deal to, say, Warren Buffett (a GS client) while wearing colored contacts? To paraphrase Martha, Women in business don't wear ghetto accessories, my dear.

Colored contacts are a very unprofessional look, like gigantic gold hoop earrings and a "name" gold necklace -- they're fine for fun, but not really something you would see among high-level businessmen and women, and Toral is making such a big deal about how dignified and businesslike and professional she is.

I remember reading an interview where Barry Diller once said he could never wear a toupee, despite his baldness, because it would ruin him in business negotiations -- it would make other people think that he had something to hide, and thus evince weakness that they could seize on. It was an eye-opening idea for me, and I guess I now believe that and, after looking for it, have seen the same principle in effect among our businesspeople friends.

Re: the self-loathing comment, it really is entirely IMO, but I have several Indian friends who complain about the colored-contact trends among many young Indian women. There's a huge prejudice in the Indian community towards "fair" women (many basic Indian beauty products are skin-lighteners) and if you look at Indian beauty magazines, 9 times out of 10 there's a woman with "colored" eyes on the cover. Even if it's not strictly self-loathing, the colored-contacts still show that Toral would like to present herself as one of those aesthetically "privileged" light-skinned, light-eyed women. Which she's not, although she's pretty.

All YMMV, of course.

Peg Amy

Oct 15, 2005 @ 11:44 am

Regardless of how the fair-haired gang of four formed, Toral didn't do anything because work is beneath her. As others have noted, she had no business coming on the show. [/quote]
ITA. I think the argument that Toral didn't do anything and therefore wasn't responsible for the loss makes no sense. What if she slept in the corner for every task? Would she then be immune from firing because she wasn't even awake while the work was going on? She was rooting for her teammates to fail so that they "could be put in their place". Disgusting.

Felisha wasted too much time trying to get Toral in the costume. It wasn't going to happen and she should have moved on. But I think that Alla's remarks about scrubbing toilets were very telling. I think at least from Alla's perspective this was about Toral thinking she was too good to wear the costume but that the other women were inferior so it was okay for them to do it. Which...was exactly what Toral thought.

I don't like Kristi's attitude at all and I don't think she has a cat's chance in hell at winning, but in her defense I think she performed the best out of all the losing female PMs. Felisha's and Rebecca's performances were pretty disastrous, IMO, even though I like Rebecca a lot on a personal level.

Hamhock96

Oct 15, 2005 @ 11:45 am

Marshawn explained that Dairy Queen was written on the spoon, if memory serves. [/quote]

The exec asked if there were any Dairy Queen identifiers. Marshawn, after a silence from the rest, said, "Shall I take that?" She then explained that the creature was shaped like a blizzard on its back (something like that) and that it was holding the distinctive Dairy Queen spoon, which has a specific logo on the handle.

Scrizzy, really liked your post. Many others are good, too. The dynamic between the blonde girls and Toral is a bit more complicated than meets the eye. Also, the editing on Clay was really negative. The extra footage does not show him being such a tyrant and his team really responds to his leadership. As I posted before, his presentation was really good, and really client-oriented. Clay has some talent and is worth watching.

Marshawn is not the first un-crazy black woman. Neither Stacie J nor the P.M. from the Harlem billboard task was crazy. And Stacie J was a significant contributor to her team's tasks, as I recall.

Lisetta

Oct 15, 2005 @ 11:53 am

Did Toral start holding the women in contempt because they were an obnoxious clique or did the blondes bond together against Toral because they could sense her contempt?[/quote]
But it wasn't Toral v. the group of blondes who were being obnoxious. Toral's "clerical" comment, clearly showed her disdain for -everyone- except herself and Rebecca.

She makes "the chicken and the egg question" easy...she's both. A couple of the women may well be catty and nasty and bossy and rude. But she was all those things herself...and more. The "I wouldn't even speak to people like this in my real life" comment was...very telling.

A couple of the other women may be bad, too, in a different way. But...not all of them are. There's just no excuse for Toral.

clairedawn

Oct 15, 2005 @ 11:53 am

One other thing that really bothered me as I watched the episode again. These Heathers are really something else. They don't even just talk all bitchy behind someone's back. They did it right in front of Toral. I don't think I've ever seen girls that brutal before. Usually there is cattiness, sniping, little digs, and a lot of bitching about the person in the next room.

But these girls. They talk about her and refer to her as "she" and "her" right in front of Toral! When Felicia says to Rebecca, "I hope we get to see what you see in Toral, that we don't see in her." And Toral's sitting right there!

And then during the whole costume debacle when the girls are ganging up on Toral, Kristi starts yelling, "Why is she still allowed to participate in this and get credit?? She shouldn't be allowed to be in this." And then, "She's a bitch."

Wow. Talking about someone like that while they are right there definitely is so bold and disrespectful. (Not that it's better to be doing it behind someone' back, just that it takes a lot of boldness and nerve to be making someone so uncomfortable and not even care.) I can't stand Toral, but I'd be happy I was going home too and didn't have to be with those girls any longer.

But Toral's so full of it with her "cultural excuse." She wasn't crying to the cameras that she really wanted to do this but it went against her beliefs. She could not have had a bigger smirk on her face telling the camera this exact quote: "That suit was an absolute embarrassment. Kristi looked like a fool today. Again, my judgment was totally on target and I don't regret it for a second."

MightyThor

Oct 15, 2005 @ 11:53 am

A self-proclaimed "woman of stature and respect" and businesswoman wouldn't wear colored contact lenses.[/quote]

For what it's worth, Maria Boren from TA-S2 wore blue contacts to change the color of her dark eyes. I wonder how common it is in business.

clairedawn

Oct 15, 2005 @ 11:59 am

This comment from the men's team was funny when they were deciding who should be project manager: "I think whoever's going to be Project Manager should have experience with Dairy Queen and be very creative."

Have experience with Dairy Queen?? I mean unless someone had served ice cream after school, what kind of criteria is that!

Pundit

Oct 15, 2005 @ 12:08 pm

A self-proclaimed "woman of stature and respect" and businesswoman wouldn't wear colored contact lenses.[/quote]
Well, it's news to me that colored contact lenses are ghetto accessories. My current contacts are clear but back in the day of hard lenses I used to wear colored ones so that if they fell out I could find them more easily, and I don't presume to wonder or care why anyone might be wearing colored lenses today. There are many better/real reasons to sneer at Toral, IMO.

Bibibella, Marshawn was a PM and she sucked at it. But I have some hopes for her, still... have liked her in the last few episodes. It wasn't what she said during the DQ presentation that was impressive, it was the way she said it, IMO. She was willing to "step up" (heh heh) and answer the question, and her demeanor was professional.

Re Jen and her Zip presentation... she did the best with what she had to work with, IMO. What a stupid concept! And on that note, I am going to zip, zip, zip out of here and get some things done on this beautiful day.

TheLady2

Oct 15, 2005 @ 12:10 pm

Personally I don't see what difference it makes in wearing colored contacts in the business world. It's just a change of color, just as it is for haircolor being bleached or dyed. Toral had much bigger issues to warrant her firing than colored contacts.

I so agree. And that is the sign of a leader. I'll be curious to see how she does as a PM and I'm hoping she does well.[/quote]
Marshawn was the PM in episode 2 albeit we didn't she very much of her in it.

ghettofabman

Oct 15, 2005 @ 12:23 pm

I have to say that I liked Marshawn's initial mascot idea....Scooper! I think that Scooper would have spoken to all ages as opposed to Zip who just scares the living crap out of me.

Divagalore

Oct 15, 2005 @ 12:27 pm

Not that this comes as a particular surprise, but Trump's firings have absolutely no pattern. In episode 2, Markus did a totally crappy job, but wasn't the reason they lost, so Trump didn't fire him. In this episode, Toral did a totally crappy job, but wasn't the reason they lost, but Trump did fire her. [/quote]

I know this has probably been said already, but Trump is all about the ratings. Thats why he'll give those over the top personas chance after chance, while quickly letting those we don't make for interesting tv. I felt Toral was arrogant and could've stepped up more, but didn't like the mob metality from the blonde sorority brigade. It was so obvious they were trying their best to humiliate her by insisting she wear the mascot costume. Very childish, IMO. I felt either Felisha, or that big mouth, Kristi should've been walking out of the door this week. Trump has become extremely transparent, I knew before they went to the boardroom it was Toral who would be going home.

RichK

Oct 15, 2005 @ 12:40 pm

And I do think her "cultural" segue "spriritual" segue "religion" excuse was just that, an excuse.[/quote]

Well, based on what people have said here, it was what us city-slickers call a "lie". Pulling out the its-against-my-religion card is kind of going nuclear in a discussion, and if you're caught lying about it you deserve what you get.

Toral was a snot with no people skills and no idea how different types of people generally behave. When you think you're monumentally smart, you also tend to think other people around you are monumentally stupid, and won't, like, notice what you're trying to do or even, like, remember what the hell kinds of insults you called them the day before. Yeesh.

auntiemame

Oct 15, 2005 @ 12:40 pm

Trump has become extremely transparent, I knew before they went to the boardroom it was Toral who would be going home[/quote]

I'm wondering how much Trump's "I would have fired Toral" comment in the BR last week served to embolden the Heathers to openly attack Toral during the task. I think it was like the Markus thing: Trump made fun of Markus, so all the Frats thought it was basically open season on him.

Ashforth

Oct 15, 2005 @ 1:18 pm

Unfortunately, "Scooper" puts me in mind of "Pooper" and that's a bad direction for me when it comes to creamy confections.

How about a snowflake as the mascot? It could be roughly shaped like the "DQ" logo (and have the logo on it, big) and talk about how "No two Blizzards are exactly the same," tie it in to a "Try every flavor and then get your favorite one free" punch card. That aims for repeat business, a biggie in the food world.

Sometimes it seems like it would be fun to try the tasks. But it would not be fun to actually be on this show. IMO.

blocked writer

Oct 15, 2005 @ 1:43 pm

Toral was a snot with no people skills and no idea how different types of people generally behave. When you think you're monumentally smart, you also tend to think other people around you are monumentally stupid, and won't, like, notice what you're trying to do or even, like, remember what the hell kinds of insults you called them the day before. Yeesh. [/quote]

One of Toral's biggest mistakes, IMO, was to underestimate her opponents. I know that Marshawn, at least, has a law degree. I have a couple of friends who are attorneys, and they've told me that law school (at least the first year or so), and the Bar exam were some of the hardest things they've ever done. One of my friend's professors told the class at the beginning of the first year that both relationships and sleep were optional. No matter the reputation of the school, I don't think it's a walk in the park.

Unless they sat around and looked at one another's CVs or traded business stories, I have to wonder if Toral and Rebecca even knew that much about the other women's backgrounds. I supect that they were judged more on things like their clothes and speech patterns.

I suspect that Toral looks down on most people. I'm not defending Felisha and Kristi's nasty behavior about the costume in any way - that was terrible. But I really think that even if all of Toral's teammates were polished, brilliant, charming women, she'd still look down on them. In my experience, people like her always have to think of themselves as the best in any room. I think if she was on a team with Randal, in spite of his impressive education, that she'd find something about him that was wanting.

I contend that even if the "Mean Girls" behavior hadn't been a factor, that Toral would have still been just as insufferable. She openly admitted in front of her team that she hadn't been putting forth that much effort so far. She said (in interview) that her plan was to wait until they all imploded. Others have said, and I agree, that Toral thought she would outshine everyone by her mere presence, and that she could just stand idly by and watch her opponents would fall by the wayside.

Kristi and Felisha showed their asses on national TV tonight, and there will certainly be some fallout for them, and they deserve it. But I don't think that the Horror that is Toral would have been any less if her opponents were nice and professional. It just may have taken longer for viewers to see it.

blueboy

Oct 15, 2005 @ 3:27 pm

I don't think Toral was very committed to the process anyways. From her audition tape, she had taken a leave of absence and did not resign from her current employment. And for this being a job application..yeah sure lol I do wonder how much credibility employers give to this show.

lauriecake

Oct 15, 2005 @ 4:49 pm

My current contacts are clear but back in the day of hard lenses I used to wear colored ones so that if they fell out I could find them more easily[/quote]

I have colored contacts for the same reasons. I can barely see when my contacts so I can't find clear contacts if they fall out. Something of color makes it easier to find so perhaps Toral has the same problem. I can't blame her for that.

LoneHaranguer

Oct 15, 2005 @ 4:55 pm

Did anyone else bust a gut laughing when Toral tried to use the argument that successful professional business people don't wear costumes and Trump countered with "I wore a chicken suit on Saturday Night Live?[/quote]

I was too busy wondering why Toral would have specifically mentioned a chicken suit when it had nothing to do with the task, and why Trump was so good natured about it. He's blasted candidates for saying things that are (or even just may be taken as) disrespectful when clearly not intended as such. Instead, he happily plugged his appearance on another NBC show. I can understand why the producers may want to "help" things a bit, but Trump could have done his plug without such a blatant leadin. Hope we don't get the over-the-top scripting of last season.

biblioexile

Oct 15, 2005 @ 5:05 pm

Pundit wrote:Marshawn was a PM and she sucked at it. But I have some hopes for her, still... have liked her in the last few episodes. It wasn't what she said during the DQ presentation that was impressive, it was the way she said it, IMO. She was willing to "step up" (heh heh) and answer the question, and her demeanor was professional.[/quote]

Isn't it depressing when basic professionalism is a blast of fresh air? I swear, Burnett and Trump must screen for neurotic eye candy.

Call me picky ("Hi, Picky!") but this is why TA has gone steadily downhill since the first season. It's like the show became so entranced with Assmorosa's flaming weirdness that basic competence was swept completely aside. TA contestants have gotten more photogenic, flakey and patently unconvincing each year.

Marshawn, Randal and Rebecca are the only ones this season who strike me as remotely capable of surving in business outside of 'reality' show alternate universe. When Trump shuffles away from TA, or dies from hair dye poisoning, they might as well just make it Springer Does Business.

sesstr

Oct 15, 2005 @ 5:12 pm

and Kristi screamed in response, "because she's a BITCH!" And Toral didn't freak out or scream back, but just calmly said something like, "we need to get back on track here." Toral may be arrogant and deluded, but the Heathers are, seriously, like a gang. I've hated Kristi from the beginning because she just looks like a thug, but she really acted like one last night. [/quote]

Yeah, frankly I was shocked Toral or any of the others didn't say anything to Kristi - like hey, this is unacceptable behavior/language. How was Toral supposed to cooperate with everyone when, first, she's obviously being sidelined and humilated (here, you can't do much of substance, just put on the silly suit and shut up) and then verbally abused. At this point, I loathe Kristi. She embodies some horrible nightmare of a middle-school witch bully from hell.

clairedawn

Oct 15, 2005 @ 5:31 pm

I wonder what Toral's attitude would have been if Felicia had said, "Okay, we are going to draw straws to see who wears the costume."

If Toral would have been randomly selected, would she have just gone along with it or would she still have thrown a fit that she was so above it? I tend to think she wouldn't have been thrilled, but might have still shrugged and said, "okay, you gotta do what you gotta do."

I really think it was knowing the other girls were purposely giving her the shaft and sticking her with the crappy job that no else wanted to do that made her really not want to do it. I think it was about more than the "humiliation" of wearing a costume but her pride and dignity of letting those girls succeed in using their alpha-bitch ways to stick it on her.

Fire Starter

Oct 15, 2005 @ 5:46 pm

Re: the self-loathing comment, it really is entirely IMO, but I have several Indian friends who complain about the colored-contact trends among many young Indian women. There's a huge prejudice in the Indian community towards "fair" women (many basic Indian beauty products are skin-lighteners) and if you look at Indian beauty magazines, 9 times out of 10 there's a woman with "colored" eyes on the cover. Even if it's not strictly self-loathing, the colored-contacts still show that Toral would like to present herself as one of those aesthetically "privileged" light-skinned, light-eyed women. Which she's not, although she's pretty. [/quote]

To add to the coloured contacts debate, I think if Toral does wear coloured contacts, it's a legitimate (not trivial) point for analysis. I can completely confirm what a few posters already mentioned, namely that in Indian culture, as in African-American culture, as in many "minority" cultures, women frequently dislike their dark eyes and dark hair (or whatever features are associated with their ethnicity/race) and instead value the ideal of white beauty. The reasons for this are various: colonialism, slavery, racism, class, advertising etc. but at some level, a lot of people in the cultural groups I've mentioned associate looking "whiter" with being more mainstream and therefore more powerful and desirable. Subconsciously, they'd prefer to look like a slave owner than a field slave.

Now, please bear in mind that this is a somewhat simplified and abbreviated and generalized analysis and that most people from the "other" cultures have no such hang-ups. Some do, is what I'm saying.

I think it's valid to speculate that IF Toral is a coloured-contact wearer (which I must say, I'm not sure about), this fact might help throw some light on her huge superiority complex and how it might actually mask a huge inferiority complex as well as the factors that might have shaped her obnoxious self.

Issues of skin, hair and eyes figure prominently in cultural analysis (a field I'm interested in).

One other thing; someone mentioned how their friends with strong self-image wear coloured contacts and that therefore, it doesn't suggest self-doubt etc. Now I would suggest that if you're already part of the mainstream culture (i.e. white) and thus don't have anything to prove, then yes, it is possible to see coloured contacts as only a fun and trivial accessory. However, the eye colour issue has a separate significance in many minority (i.e. historically disenfranchised) communities.

sesstr

Oct 15, 2005 @ 5:57 pm

I'm not a specialist on the American culture so I can't comment on it. But I can say that in many cultures, what is considered beautiful is often exactly what is rare. In cultures where most people are poor and most women are thin, it is the curvy well-fed women who are considered beautiful. In India, the sort of very thin and androgynous body type popular with the fashion industry is not considered beautiful - the ideal is a voluptous, feminine shape. In Asian cultures for example, women with big eyes are considered beautiful because they're rare. This goes back to the ancient Greeks and Romans when women lightened their hair and face with poisonous substances because light hair and light skin was rare and therefore beautiful.

Pundit

Oct 15, 2005 @ 6:38 pm

Fire Starter

Oct 15, 2005 @ 7:24 pm

uber-superiority complex hiding an inferiority complex, I think that's a given. That's almost always the case. [/quote]

I don't agree. In my experience, some "uber-superior" people don't have inferiority complexes. They might be conceited and arrogant, but they do genuinely think well of themselves. Their sense of being better than others might come from being spoilt, constantly treated as if they were better than other people; they actually do have attributes like outstanding beauty or intelligence or wealth that they are constantly put on a pedestal for; they were never taught how to empathize; they have a seriously narrow and sometimes arrogant sense of what constitutes success and human worth; they have a limited imagination and so are unable to see/understand that their worldview is not the same as the world etc.

I think you're right that old Toral does have an inferiority complex, though. My schadenfreude side would like to think so.

On another note, what was with her picking her teeth while Kristi was talking to her? She seemed to have been expressing her contempt for Kristi, but is she really so clueless about how gross and unclassy it makes her look?

Lily Bart

Oct 15, 2005 @ 7:42 pm

I think she would have refused. I don't think her biggest objection was that the Kristis were asking her to do it so much as she thought she would look foolish.[/quote]

I agree. They did gang up on her, but I think that only made her more adamant about not putting on the costume. But I think she would have refused no matter what.

blackwing

Oct 15, 2005 @ 7:42 pm

I wonder what Toral's attitude would have been if Felicia had said, "Okay, we are going to draw straws to see who wears the costume."

If Toral would have been randomly selected, would she have just gone along with it or would she still have thrown a fit that she was so above it? I tend to think she wouldn't have been thrilled, but might have still shrugged and said, "okay, you gotta do what you gotta do." [/quote]I disagree. I think she would have refused. I don't think her biggest objection was that the Kristis were asking her to do it so much as she thought she would look foolish. She would rather someone else look foolish, because she's of a certain "stature" and she's too good for a goofy costume. Better to let one of the low-class secretary types wear it.

I think even if Rebecca had asked, she would have said no.

I agree that the Kristis ganged up on her to try and force her to wear the costume, but I think part of it is because they were annoyed that she had done just about nothing to contribute to the task.

JennaC

Oct 15, 2005 @ 8:21 pm

agree that the Kristis ganged up on her to try and force her to wear the costume, but I think part of it is because they were annoyed that she had done just about nothing to contribute to the task. [/quote]

They didn't want anyone else to contribute whether it be Toral, Marshawn, or Rebecca. I am not defending Toral as she should have worked her ass off on all of the tasks.

At the same time, those bitches created a hostile environment that affected the entire team. For that reason, they all should have been fired. All that hollering that Kristi did should have gotten her fired. Who ever heard of calling a colleague a bitch? WTF? That is absolutely unacceptable behavior.

blocked writer

Oct 15, 2005 @ 8:55 pm

All that hollering that Kristi did should have gotten her fired. Who ever heard calling a colleague a bitch? That is absolutely unacceptable behavior. [/quote]

Don't worry, I think Kristi's dead meat in this contest. I think she has less chance of winning this game than Toral has of winning the Nobel Peace Prize.

Kristi was total crap as PM, and she can't govern her tongue. Her overall horrific performance on this show is sure to catch up with her sooner or later.

I'm beginning to think that all those one-on-one are a hidden test that TPTB use against the contestants later. They ask all these loaded questions, partly to give glimpes of the real personalities of the contestants. But I also think that the interviews are used to trip up the players. The interviews reveal who can be discreet, who's loose-lipped, and gives clues about the strategy they use.

I think they give too much time to these interviews on the show, and that they should cut them down to quicker sound bites. But I guess they do serve a purpose.

Kristi has already hung herself in the interviews, I think. I didn't catch her "bitch" comment about Toral, but it doesn't surprise me.

Toral was just appalling, and I'm glad she's gone. But I think Kristi will be joining her in sequesterville soon enough.

auntiemame

Oct 15, 2005 @ 9:00 pm

Re: the colored contacts debate. I agree with FireStarter's analysis on what it signifies, but I also decided to check pictures of her again to see if she really is wearing them. On the Apprentice 4 main site (NBC) there's a big blow-up of her picture and she looks like she's wearing the hazel contacts: there's a dark-black ring around her eyes that looks very unnatural, and if you're used to seeing colored contacts, they look like that.

On the other hand, on her Unforgettable Business Genius site, (toral-mehta.com) the "pictures" section show her with kind of dark sea-green colored eyes, with the same dark ring around them. But they look much more natural. I'm not sure if that's the lighting or retouching (several of the photos are kind of whitewashed to make her skin look lighter, so she basically looks like a tan white woman). But now I am not so sure if those are contacts. Or maybe she switches colors.

So, I am on the fence about that for the time being. Although FireStarter I think your whole analysis is awesome, especially of the superiority complex issue.

I agree that the Kristis ganged up on her to try and force her to wear the costume, but I think part of it is because they were annoyed that she had done just about nothing to contribute to the task.[/quote]

I think they kind of made it impossible for Toral to contribute even if she wanted to, and she knew that. I think she didn't want to be PM because she was very aware they were planning to undermine her, no matter what. Everything she said, they turned on her, as with the "Blizzamarole" thing she suggested that turned them into salivating hyena bitches. Rebecca interviewed that Toral would not be effective with this team, and the way I heard it, the stress was on "this."

blockedwriter, the "bitch" comment was only on the CNBC repeat, not the NBC first-run. ITA with what you said about the snotterviews.

BibiBella

Oct 15, 2005 @ 9:09 pm

Kristi was total crap as PM, and she can't govern her tongue. [/quote]

She also cannot control her emotions which is what really will screw her in the business world - leave the personal at home and adopt a professional approach (as we saw with Marshawn, Jen M and Rebecca who handled these tough situations very well), but Kristi is still a 13 year old junior high brat who thinks bullying works.

If I were her, I'd be embarrassed to show my face.

EMPulse

Oct 15, 2005 @ 9:16 pm

Toral, good riddance.

Kristi, shut up.

Felicia, you're an idiot.

*sigh* Can't we just petition NBC and MB to skip ahead to the point where it's just Rebecca, Marshawn, Jennifer W., and a few of the guys (not Clay)?

This season is difficult to stomach.

blocked writer

Oct 15, 2005 @ 9:54 pm

I think they kind of made it impossible for Toral to contribute even if she wanted to, and she knew that. I think she didn't want to be PM because she was very aware they were planning to undermine her, no matter what.[/quote]

I agree that Kristi, Felisha, (and maybe Alla) were aligned against her. But Toral had Marshawn and Jennifer who were at least neutral, and Rebecca in her corner. She should have fought to be PM, and shown that she could manage a difficult team. She would have also had the chance to separate the clique. If they did try to undermine her, she'd have had ammunition against them in the boardroom.

As horrible as the clique is, I do believe they would have at least made the effort to win. I don't think they would have voted to give her immunity if they won, unless she did something extraordinary. But bitchy as they are, I do think they probably wanted to win more than they hated Toral.

I don't really think they made it impossible for Toral to contribute. To be honest, "Blizzamarole", was a horrible idea, nonsensical and no better than Zip. They weren't helpful or friendly at the beginning of the task, to be sure, and they became shrieking harpies by the end.

But by becoming PM, which I think they would have allowed her to do had she shown any enthusiasm, Toral would have had some control over her fate. As it was, by basically refusing to be PM, and refusing to put on the costume, she sabotaged herself. Kristi & Co. didn't help, but Toral was stupid and ineffectual for not even trying to really contribute. She wasn't even professional enough to put on a neutral face in front of the executives at the presentation. That was inexcusable, whatever her private feelings, IMO.

The ones who were out to get her will pay for how they acted. For one thing, they've been seen on national TV by prospective employers, as well as friends and family members acting terribly unprofessional. But that doesn't change the fact that Toral had a brief window of opportunity to prove herself after her dismal performance in the previous task, and she failed utterly.

blockedwriter, the "bitch" comment was only on the CNBC repeat, not the NBC first-run. ITA with what you said about the snotterviews. [/quote]

Thanks for the information about the CNBC repeat. I watched that, but I must have zoned out on that part. They really do overuse those one-on-one interviews, don't they?

Brinswan

Oct 15, 2005 @ 10:37 pm

Actually, I watched the NBC Thursday night Apprentice and heard the "Bitch" comment from Kristi loud and clear.

My eyes are blue with a black ring around them, and I don't wear contacts, colored or otherwise.

I'm going to give Toral the benefit of the doubt and not believe that she was kicked out of Columbia for cheating until thesmokinggun.com or some other website verifies that dirt. It seems too ridiculous that someone so concerned with personal honor would do something so shameful. Although with these winners, I suppose you never know . . .

sleazydinosaur

Oct 16, 2005 @ 12:57 am

It seems too ridiculous that someone so concerned with personal honor would do something so shameful.[/quote]

She admitted to not really trying in any of the tasks, and she lied repeatedly in the boardroom. She is obviously not concerned with personal honor, she just likes to use the buzz words as yet another excuse. I have no problem believing she was caught cheating.

BuonGiorno

Oct 16, 2005 @ 1:07 am

It seems too ridiculous that someone so concerned with personal honor would do something so shameful. Although with these winners, I suppose you never know . . . [/quote]

For honest folk it may seem ridiculous and unnecessary to be so concerned about personal honor. Cheaters, on the other hand, whose honor is in question, may need to talk about their honor excessively in hopes to boost it up.
In Toral's case, it seems like she was simply making up lame excuses.

blueguy

Oct 16, 2005 @ 8:01 am

Toral's statements that wearing the costume would damage her reputation may or may not have merit. And, I think it a moot point now to continue arguing over it. However, what she did do that damaged her reputation beyond this show and beyond repair (imo) was to lie. Trump caught her in a few and I'm certain she was lying to Rebbecca from the start just so she would have an ally (at least for a while).

Toral claims to be an investment banker. Well, with all the investment scandals going aroung these days - I would think that anyone in investment banking would be trying to portray an image of complete honesty and integrity. Toral definately did not portray either!

Would you believe what she had to say about a particular investment opportunity or stock? Not me. She may have looked silly in the costume, but that would not affect my trust in her abilities as an investment banker. What does affect my trust in her abilities is her - what seems like - an eager willingness to stretch the truth when it suits her. Someone working as an investment banker and most likely on commission sales should not so readily stretch the truth or lie. It undermines confidence in the person and the institution they work for.

Toral said she was worried about what her clients would think - ahem - her clients should be worried about her and what she is thinking! Who's interest is Toral serving?

Toral - if you were giving investment advice to me - I would consider the source and then move on to the next company!

My Way

Oct 16, 2005 @ 8:27 am

Re the coloured contact lenses debate. I don't really have an opinion on the subject, but the maternal side of my family is from the Caribbean, with East Indian lineage (would that be the correct term?). A couple of my cousins have green/hazel eyes. One is mixed (like me), but the other isn't. And she doesn't wear contact lenses.

All that to say, I don't know if Toral actually wears them, but it's possible that is her natural eye colour.[/quote]
Thanks Lily Bart. I am also highly skeptical of people's ability to tell if someone wears colored contacts, because I get asked about 20 times a year if I wear contacts. I guess I have a "tell tale ring" of color (blue) around my pupils that is different than the rest of my eyes (green), but it's totally natural. So I'm not really ready to start an analysis on Toral based on her alledged color contacts. She has been enough of a bitch that we don't really need that amo, IMO.

I wonder what Toral's attitude would have been if Felicia had said, "Okay, we are going to draw straws to see who wears the costume."[/quote]
I don't know if she still would have worn it, but I think her attitude would have been better. I would have been pissed off if some bitchy girls who had been sidelining me the whole project tried to force me to wear the silly idiotic costume. Look, nobody every really wants to wear the costume, right? That's why the girls should have done the same thing the guys did, and ask for volunteers. The only reason they didn't is because they wanted to humiliate Toral.

So I don't blame her for not having a good attitude about the costume, but if she were as smart as she thinks she is, she would have just worn the thing and she would have been safe.

Everything she said, they turned on her, as with the "Blizzamarole" thing she suggested that turned them into salivating hyena bitches.[/quote] To be honest, "Blizzamarole", was a horrible idea, nonsensical and no better than Zip.[/quote]
I agree that "Blizzamarole" was a stupid idea but it was better than zip in one critical way, it tied back to dairy queen and the product. Zip was just completely unrelated to Dairy Queen or the product, so in that way it was worse. Maybe if they had used brainstorming in the way it is supposed to be used, rather than screaming like harpies to shoot that idea down, they could have said, hey, Blizzamarole is stupid but maybe we could work a name with blizzard in the title somehow that fits better. Instead they just screamed at her, which is so very, very bad for a brainstorming session.

AdrienneP

Oct 16, 2005 @ 8:40 am

I agree that Kristi, Felisha, (and maybe Alla) were aligned against her. But Toral had Marshawn and Jennifer who were at least neutral, and Rebecca in her corner. She should have fought to be PM, and shown that she could manage a difficult team. [/quote]
I agree blockedwriter, especially since Trumpie himself called her out at the very beginning of the show and said, "Toral, I'm expecting great things from you..." She knew from the very beginning of the task that she was under the gun and still held back from being PM or contributing in any significant way. Her every move was being scrutinized, so she should have made MORE of an effort, IMO, and probably in Trump's as well.

I think even if she had given in and worn the costume she probably would still have been fired. Trumpie was gunning for her from last week, and wearing the costume alone wouldn't have saved her.

blocked writer

Oct 16, 2005 @ 8:58 am

I think even if she had given in and worn the costume she probably would still have been fired. Trumpie was gunning for her from last week, and wearing the costume alone wouldn't have saved her. [/quote]

It's quite possible that Trump would have still fired Toral if she had worn the costume, but I'm not convinced, AdrienneP. The crux of the argument was why she wouldn't wear the costume, and whether or not she was telling the truth about why she wouldn't do it.

Had she worn the costume, there would have never have been that line of questioning. Then the only strike against her would have been her failure to become PM. Had she been smart, she would have just pushed to be PM, and they wouldn't have had that argument in the first place.

I do agree that Trump was watching Toral closely after Rebecca defended her so staunchly. But I do think he would have given his "Wharton Grad" a fair chance had she made any real effort to prove herself.

fposte

Oct 16, 2005 @ 9:59 am

As horrible as the clique is, I do believe they would have at least made the effort to win[/quote]

And that's why in a "Death is not an option" situation I go for the Kristi/Felisha alliance over Toral--I think they would have still wanted the team to win even with Toral leading it, whereas she demonstrably wanted the team to lose. Yes, people were mean to her, but it's not an excuse to back out in this situation. She's justified in being unhappy, not in sucking.

Rose Dawn Scott

Oct 16, 2005 @ 10:06 am

Had she worn the costume, there would have never have been that line of questioning. Then the only strike against her would have been her failure to become PM. Had she been smart, she would have just pushed to be PM, and they wouldn't have had that argument in the first place.[/quote]

ITA, blocked writer. In fact, if her team had lost while she was PM, she'd have had an excuse with some merit -- she could say that her team had deliberately sabotauged her, dragged their feet, thrown the task, whatever. It's entirely possible Trump would've come back with the "you've got to be able to lead if you want to work for me" argument and fired her anyway, but "I didn't want to PM because it wasn't THE task for me, and I didn't want to wear the costume because I have religious objections" -- that's two lame excuses for the price of one. OTOH, if Toral had agreed to PM, it's very possible the Kristis really would've tried to drag her down, giving her some legitimacy, and Trump at the least I believe would've questioned the rest of the team closely about anything that looked like throwing the task so they could play Get Toral.

It seems obvious that Trump was expecting Toral to take the PM task. Since she didn't, she was already marked -- twice, after Rebecca's save. Refusing to wear the silly costume was the third strike. Bye, Toral: Unforgettable Business Genius! I look forward to the coming ouster of Kristi and Felisha.

I know the "contrast" was a deliberate set-up, but when Toral came back to the suite after Jen W. went bye-bye, the women had a talk and decided to "start fresh"...then the Kristis continued acting like Kristis and Toral continued acting like Toral. After the Markus trainwreck, the men had a talk and agreed to "start fresh" also...and apparently managed to pull it off. (at least to the point of squeaking by on the tasks, not that their wins have been in any way brilliant.)

TheLady2

Oct 16, 2005 @ 10:27 am

After the Markus trainwreck, the men had a talk and agreed to "start fresh" also...and apparently managed to pull it off.[/quote]

Which is why I like the men's team so much better than the catty women's team.

AdrienneP

Oct 16, 2005 @ 10:44 am

I know the "contrast" was a deliberate set-up, but when Toral came back to the suite after Jen W. went bye-bye, the women had a talk and decided to "start fresh"...then the Kristis continued acting like Kristis and Toral continued acting like Toral. [/quote]
The only thing I would say to that, in Kristi's defense (and I am in NO WAY condoning the rest of her or the Uniblondes actions, I really can't stand her) is that when they were having that talk, Kristi came right out and said, "...don't hang back Toral, you owe it to Rebecca after she stuck her neck out for you, and if slack off in any way I'll be all over you..." That didn't make an impact on me on Thursday's viewing, but when I watched the repeat Friday night it stuck right out. So Toral knew that not only was Trumpie watching her, but the whole team was expecting her to contribute. Not that she cared what her team thought. Yet she still stuck to her "strategy" of letting the team fail. And she was almost gleeful about their failure as well, because it "proved" her point that they were incompetent, which is even more reprehensible.

Yes, the line of questioning that finally derailed her was the costume, and it's possible that had she worn it she might not have been fired. But Toral's performance on that task was everyone's focus, so I still think Trumpie would have found another reason to let her go. She'd already been given a break when Rebecca didn't bring her into the boardroom. I think the only thing that might have saved her was being PM.

BibiBella

Oct 16, 2005 @ 10:46 am

especially since Trumpie himself called her out at the very beginning of the show and said, "Toral, I'm expecting great things from you..." She knew from the very beginning of the task that she was under the gun and still held back from being PM or contributing in any significant way. Her every move was being scrutinized, so she should have made MORE of an effort, IMO, and probably in Trump's as well. [/quote]

And this underscores both how stupid and how arrogant Toral is...she knew Trump was looking for her to show her smarts/skills and she knew that everyone else was too...yet she still thought she could get by with doing nothing. WTF?

She honestly is one of those people who think that "being themselves" is enough to warrant all the good things in life...thus no effort from her, yet complete expectation that she'd be kept on the team.

kerfoker

Oct 16, 2005 @ 10:56 am

But by becoming PM, which I think they would have allowed her to do had she shown any enthusiasm, Toral would have had some control over her fate. As it was, by basically refusing to be PM, and refusing to put on the costume, she sabotaged herself.[/quote]

That's where Toral lost, by not being the PM when she had the opportunity to do so so she lost control over what her performance would be based on in that task. And as far as tasks go, creating a mascot wasn't that difficult I think. The men's effort didn't seem that impressive and I thought the DQ executives were laughing at the presentation (not with the men!). I keep wondering why DQ doesn't use some sort of queen for its mascot?

auntiemame

Oct 16, 2005 @ 11:13 am

Toral claims to be an investment banker. Well, with all the investment scandals going aroung these days - I would think that anyone in investment banking would be trying to portray an image of complete honesty and integrity. Toral definately did not portray either!

Would you believe what she had to say about a particular investment opportunity or stock? Not me. She may have looked silly in the costume, but that would not affect my trust in her abilities as an investment banker. What does affect my trust in her abilities is her - what seems like - an eager willingness to stretch the truth when it suits her. Someone working as an investment banker and most likely on commission sales should not so readily stretch the truth or lie. It undermines confidence in the person and the institution they work for.[/quote]

I love your point. Toral is like the Jack Grubman of the Apprentice. (Grubman was the research analyst who kept issuing "buy" ratings on Worldcom so investors would buy the stock, even though he knew it was crap.) And her former employers must be intensely embarrassed. Investment bankers don't advise individuals on what stocks to buy, though -- they advise companies on what other companies to buy, and how to raise money.

As it was, by basically refusing to be PM, and refusing to put on the costume, she sabotaged herself.[/quote]

I don't think she so much sabotaged herself, as she fell into their trap. The team had set up a brilliant catch-22: if she became PM, they would sabotage her,("we're just not motivated" redux) and if she didn't become PM they would sabotage her. And no matter what she did, Trump had decided last week he would fire her. Her firing was predestined, IMO. And, faced with the realization that she would 'fail' no matter what she did, she took the approach many other people do under the same pressure: complete passivity.

Lisetta

Oct 16, 2005 @ 11:52 am

Speaking of the evils of lying (...Toral...)....Doesn't Trump feel embarrassed for his own lies?

Last season he should have been bragging about what a great job Kendra did, how talented she is, and that he's lucky the show finds such quality people to work for him.

Instead, he was contemptuous of the TA3 contestants and bragged about how TA4 were superior to them in every way, were all hand-picked by Trump himself for their incredible abilities, personality and gorgeousness.

"This is an incredible group of tremendous candidates...the most beautfiul that we've ever had....blah, blah, blah".

WTH? Can anyone look at these people as a group and say they stand out as overall superior in any way to TA1, TA2, or TA3? I don't see any difference at all (except that Kendra and Bill would have still been superior to anything we've seen so far from this bunch).

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