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Full Version: 4-3: "Something Old, Something New" 2005.10.06
TWoP Forums > Current TWoP Shows > The Apprentice > The Apprentice General Gabbery
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tiggeril

He owns every bakery in NYC?[/quote]
He's a yooge fan of cake!
dreamist

I have to admit, when Jen M was doing push-up's in front of the senior man in order to raise the heart rate, all I could think was thank God she's not doing jumping jacks. That probably would have led to a demonstration of a defibrulator. [/quote]

BWAA!

I actually thought Barbi Jen nicely balanced using her looks vs. flaunting her looks. Her clothes fit well but she was pretty covered up. Girls doing real push-ups impress me (I'm..top-heavy..those things are challenging for me!) and at the same time, she didn't do anything too jiggly - like running in place or !jumping jacks!

We've already had one Jen M finalist, so to me, however competent she may prove, this girl is Barbi Jen. The interview pose and the Barbi hairdo make it so.

ETA: although she could be paJent, since I take it she actually has a pageant background.
deaja

didn't have a problem with Blond Jen's demonstration of the Heart Monitor. She was pretty covered up, (she had on full-length pants!) and, even while on the floor doing push-ups, her boobs weren't flopping around in plain sight. [/quote]

She was pretty covered up, even while doing the pushups, but to strap on the heart monitor, she lifted her shirt while she got it perfectly in place. It wasn't as bad as Ivana the stripper, but it also wasn't just doing pushups and flirting.
Pundit
She flirted a little, but it wasn't slutty, it was appropriate to the situation.

I've kind of liked her positive attitude up until now, but she fell from my graces a little in this episode.
Txtwister
If Martha can "call back" the "real perps" to the boardroom, then why not Donald? I call bullshit.
illogic

And while it was a risky call, this is ultimately a game, and I believe that Rebecca realizes that the Boardroom wins or loses you the game. Right or wrong, I think Rebecca truly did make her picks based on her long-term objectives. I also believe she will sacrifice Toral when necessary, without too much pain. [/quote]

And despite the beating she took, it made strategic sense to an extent. Not bringing in Toral, then talking about integrity and reflecting openly that the choice may in fact lead to defeat sends Donald a not too subtle message, that firing her means punishing someone for not backstabbing the person who helped her the most after she had actually broken a bone.

If Rebecca had brought Toral in, she would have risked Toral bringing that up, and painting it in the most negative, disloyal light possible. Honestly, I wouldn't want to work with, much less hire, somebody who rewards compassion and loyalty with open betrayal. And if Toral made that argument in the boardroom, it might very well have gotten Rebecca fired.

Toral deserved to be fired, sure, but Rebecca shouldn't, maybe even couldn't, have been the one to take her in.
dreamist
illogic, good point. I hadn't even thought so far as Toral's defences in the Boardroom. That could have spun badly for Rebecca real quick.
Jaded Cat

I don't know if anyone else caught this, but at the very beginning of the ep, Mark gave an interview that was basically recapping the situation. He said, and I quote, "Chris and Markus is in the boardroom." Did Mark just like, skip all of his third grade grammar lessons or something?

I noticed that, but my closed captioning claimed Mark used "Chris and Markus are..." I Zaprudered the damn thing and couldn't tell for certain. I decided that, despite having lived in Houston for the past 13+ years, I simply can't understand hillbilly and gave Mark and the captioners the benefit of the doubt. Regardless, Mark is still an ass.[/quote]

I heard him say "is" instead of "are" and I nearly gave the cat a soda bath. I watched again tonight and it was definitely "is." It's ok, I don't care for Mark anyway, he can babble all he wants.

Jen M was demonstrating a device that measured cardic info. Better she do pushups than jogging or, as someone upthread mentioned, jumping jacks. I thought she looked good, wasn't wearing a skimpy outfit, wasn't falling out of her top, I liked her. Hey, at least she isn't a lawyer!

Trump, thy name is inconsistency. I just want to reach into the tv and ruffle your hair.
legaleagle44


He owns every bakery in NYC?[/quote]

He's a yooge fan of cake![/quote]

Especially wedding cake (according to Martha's show!)
Midnightmom

As a disabled young woman myself.. I was surprised she'd be "allowed" to quit. This type of perception is why it's hard for sucessful disabled people to find work... other non-disabled people thinking that we'll be using our handicap as a crutch to slack off. Certainly it's true of some, however, not all. Plenty of people work on broken legs EVERY. DAY. I believe that stepping up to be a PM right after the injury was a strategic move, as it allowed her to fall back on her injury if she lost. IMO, it comes off looking weak, but my perception is different[/quote]

If you read the qualifications to be on the show, you have to be physically fit....essentially this is NOT an EOE show and she could probably be 'dismissed' because she no longer fits the terms of the contract.


My point is that whether or not the seniors were interested in the technology, for them this was a social event. The difference in the scores was very small. If the overall presentation had been more welcoming, if they had enjoyed the food and the atmosphere, Matchstick would likely have won. [/quote]
Housekeeping point here.....Matchstick is a team on Martha's Apprentice. The women's team on TA is Capital Edge.
RainbowRat
Random thoughts after watching it twice tonight (Friday) on CNBC:

The guys won because they concentrated on the "Why", rather than the "how". The internet is useful because you can look up old girlfriends. Digital cameras are cool because you can print out pictures of your grandchildren immediately. DVR/Tivo is cool because you can pause it if you want to go get another cup of coffee. The editing gives you the impression that Jacob was the catalyst for the "super presentation" the men's team needed to come up with because of his "Sent from the devil" comment, but Trump actually said something about relating technology to daily life when he gave the assignment. So there was no excuse for the uninspired thing the women did.

Rebecca was at least as responsible as Jen W for the failure of the expo. Since the expo had no direction or main theme to begin with, blaming the blahness on Jen W alone makes no sense. Having not watched the E!B!F! I don't know how much any other team members tried to get that point across during planning, but even if it didn't occur to anybody, Rebecca was the team leader, so it's on her by default.

My vote for Rebecca looks-like: Tiffany-Amber Thiessen (sp?) from Saved By the Bell and... one of those 90's soaps (Beverly Hills 90210, I think, as the Shannon Doherty replacement)

Despite the crappy job, I thought Rebecca's self-defense in the boardroom was awesome. No whining or smugness in her tone, just ringing, stirring conviction and righteousness. Her actual content and coherence did leave something to be desired, ("I'm flexible because I can work with a broken ankle!" "Keeping Toral! Integrity! Integrity! Jen M! Integrity!") and Trump knew it. He wasn't taken in, but he wants her around a little longer to see how and if she can deliver. He said after she left "She'll either be [awesome] or a disaster." I think she'll prove to be a "disaster" eventually, but I'm glad she'll be back next week.

And I think the reason Rebecca chose not to bring Toral in was for the sake of underdog solidarity. The famous "integrity" might mean the price she feels she would have to pay for it in bitchface from the Heather Uniblonders (thank you MetroplisGal), which would mean more if they were all still in junior high. But in terms of entertainment value and personality, as opposed to actually winning, I find it admirable.

Toral herself I have sympathy for, as a person. Toral's own huge underdog complex is why she's so much in Markus' corner. "If the dumbass cool kids hate YOU like they HATE me, you must be as awesome and superior as me." And we all know darn well it ain't an Indian thing. As an Ellis Island Western European mutt, I used to operate on the same superior attitude: "You all hate me because you're inferior, therefore I will out-superior you and hate you all first". I'm glad none of you knew me then. (I did get over it, honest. But I still go for the underdogs.)

Anyway, my sympathy or no, Toral's on her way out soon, and deservedly so.

And, God help me, but Markus is actually pretty good-looking when he keeps his mouth shut.
fire.no.9
I actually think that Toral is this season's Ivana (not Kristi, like others have mentioned) pretty much for the reasons you listed, RainbowRat. Like Ivana, Toral seems to have an irrational hatred of attractive blondes. I mean, the vitriol coming out of her mouth proves, at least to me, that she has a massive complex. I'm sure Marshawn thinks the same shit, but we're not getting any snotterviews out of her on the topic (not that they don't exist). But as irrational as Toral's hatred may be, there's definitely something to it.

I don't think it's a coincidence that all the blondes sat on one side at the boardroom table and the brunettes on the other. And whether done consciously or not, it bothers me. To a certain extent, this episode makes me rethink the whole Melissa debacle. She still deserved to be fired, but damn!! Two crazy "they jus jellus" chicks in one season?! I dunno...

Going back to Marshawn, there was this one shot of her in the boardroom right after the guys were told about their awesome reward... she had a smile about a mile wide. I'm wondering if that was an "aw, you all get to help the lil' kiddies" smile or a "suckas!!! you gotta help some friggin' kids" smile.
AmberDawn

Going back to Marshawn, there was this one shot of her in the boardroom right after the guys were told about their awesome reward... she had a smile about a mile wide. [/quote]

She did have an exemption, after all.
auntiemame

I don't think it's a coincidence that all the blondes sat on one side at the boardroom table and the brunettes on the other. And whether done consciously or not, it bothers me. To a certain extent, this episode makes me rethink the whole Melissa debacle. She still deserved to be fired, but damn!! Two crazy "they jus jellus" chicks in one season?! I dunno...[/quote]

Exactly, fire. Trump's stupid "she doesn't get along with anyone on the team" comment about Toral was annoying because in Toral's case -- as opposed to Melissa's case -- he's irrationally rewarding the Heathers for ganging up on anyone they see fit, no matter how stupid or irrational their reasons.

Also, Rainbow Rat I loved your post, because the ganging up, it drives me crazy! It's not even about superiority or inferiority, which don't apply to the gimps on this show, but just about fairness, like what gives the Heathers the right? Who died and elected them the agenda-setting prom queens? I don't think they 'hate' Toral for anything she did, but only because they need an enemy in order to define who's in their clique and who's not, and they chose her because she's the closest to a Queen Bee outside their clique. I do believe Toral is unfortunately condescending, but really, she has a point that all of the other gimps, with the exceptions of Rebecca, Alla and possibly Marshawn, have nowhere near the level of competence and capability to do this job or any job.

The chief difference IMO between this situation and that of Markus is that Markus was actually disruptive to his team's task and constantly tried to commandeer the presentation. Toral didn't do that -- in fact, it was the Heathers who did with all their "I ain't doing shit if she doesn't motivate us." God. I say fire them all now.
Keupi
I gave some thought to the Toral/Rebecca situation. I am disgusted by the holier-than-thou attitude displayed in E3 but am considering how much the ER all-nighter came into play on several levels.

When Rebecca was injured at the end of E2, only Toral came away from the ice to stay with her and I didn't see any members of the women's team even check to see how Rebecca was faring.

I have heard that lack of sleep is the biggest complaint among Apprentice candidates - one average was 4 hours a night, at most, throughout the entire series. It appeared that Rebecca was in the ER all night and that Toral was with her the entire time. I've been both the ER patient and the ER waiter and both are extremely tiring. When they returned to the suite, I saw the women's team wondering what the news was but not really offering any type of support.

As an aside, an ankle injury is nothing to play around with - it's very serious and extremely painful. I am really surprised Rebecca continued.

Rebecca did not need to be PM this task. She should have avoided it at all costs. While I can appreciate the 'I can still do anything attitude and I'm going to prove it' she should have been a team member in a capacity that would have gone further. Market research using the Internet, interviewing the target audience, demonstrating a product. All of this could have been done from a sitting/foot prop position and probably would have gained sympathy points from the senior's. And, if the women's team had lost and she was brought to the BR, chances are she would not have been fired. If the PM felt that her injury limited her ability to contribute, she could have said - I offered to do this, this, and this which would have helped the team but instead the PM put me on the sidelines.

Toral's attitude may have started with seeds of envy and self-importance, but after witnessing the lack of empathy by any of the women's team to Rebecca's situation that attitude bloomed to complete disdain. Given the exhaustion factor combined with frustration, it was a train-wreck waiting to happen. Additionally, when sleep-deprived the simplest tasks become huge obstacles. I don't know how many days this task extended, but if Toral had given up the night of sleep to stay with Rebecca in the ER while the rest of the team slept, she was a night down from the outset. Again, I do not approve of her comments but do wonder how much sleep and observance of team attitudes played into the role.

As said before, Rebecca should never have PM'ed this task (getting used to the crutches and ankle; sleep deprivation to name two reasons). But she did so I took a closer look. Going back to the ankle and being on crutches, I really am wondering how much support she received from her team. Yes this is business, but there's an element of humanness that has to come into play. I don't know if she asked for help from the others or whether help was offered by the others. But a plausible reason why she did not bring Toral into the BR is that Toral was the only one helping her with the personal aspects of daily living. Yes Jen M wheeled back her suitcase but did she really have a choice? When injured, I suspect in any fashion but I know in this fashion - bathing becomes a chore - other than a sponge bath, you really can't do it safely unless you have another person standing outside the door. Getting a glass of water requires help. Laundry is an absolute obstacle (and Rebecca may now be limited in her fashion selections). Etc.

If Toral was the only one helping her, bringing Toral into the BR knowing she would be fired was lose-lose for Rebecca. I can't say definitively that the other women did not step in, but if Rebecca saw Toral as her only source of help/support losing Toral would have really put Rebecca in a bad position as Toral may be the only one Rebecca see's as helping her through her injury. Yes, this is personal but not on the level of 'she's my friend.' If Rebecca was fired, no doubt production assistants would have helped her at the Ponderosa. But if Toral was fired, who would help Rebecca with these tasks? Also, strategy-wise, Rebecca knows that Trump is gunning for Toral. If both get called into a BR, most likely Toral would be fired, thus advancing Rebecca in the game. By that point, Rebecca may have figured out alternatives to her situation and can then just keep going on without Toral.

In the BR, the other women brought up the friendship between Rebecca/Toral but didn't give any specifics. This leads me to believe that they were referring to the ER hand-holding and whatever Toral was doing to help Rebecca on the injury level but this was also something they couldn't overtly say. The natural response from Trump and the Viceroy's might have been negative, especially if they turned the tables to 'well what did you do?' Also, Rebecca went back at them using Toral's education (same university as Trump - points) and while she insulted them, they already were making Toral less-worthy. Rebecca never strayed and kept bringing up Toral's qualifications on a business-level while ignoring poor performance on a task level. The rest of the team kept bringing up protection based on friendship but provided no basis on how that friendship affected Rebecca's decision. They also did not try to bolster Jen W from a business sense and could also be accused of protecting her based on friendship. All-in-all, I see this whole thing as being about Rebecca's survival - personally and professionally and she took a calculated risk, played her cards well, and won the gamble.

Edited because I lost the last paragraph between preview and post
auntiemame
Awesome analysis, Keupi. I happen to agree with all of it, especially this:


Toral's attitude may have started with seeds of envy and self-importance, but after witnessing the lack of empathy by any of the women's team to Rebecca's situation that attitude bloomed to complete disdain.[/quote]

FWIW, IIRC Sandy Weill, the Chairman of Citigroup, chose as his consigliere and successor a guy named Chuck Prince.There were other smart, competent and hard-charging guys in the company who could have gotten the job, but Prince was the only one who sat with Weill while he was in the hospital for something major, like heart surgery, years and years ago. I see nothing wrong with rewarding that kind of loyalty.
Hamhock96

She did have an exemption, after all. [/quote]

Uncommented upon so far: Marshawn did not sit on it, either. She worked as hard as anyone else.
fangums

My entry for the Rebecca look-alike contest is that she's a prettier Teresa Strasser. [/quote]
Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner! Thank you, luvrhino. That's exactly who she reminds me of. I've had a mad girlcrush on Teresa Strasser since WYWO but I assure you, it does not extend to Rebecca. She gets no goodwill from me due to the resemblance, but at least now I can free up that braincell to work on something else.
Ashforth

Matchstick is a team on Martha's Apprentice. The women's team on TA is Capital Edge.[/quote]
Criminy, like The Donald, I just can't keep track of who all these people are. It's almost like it's one big show.

Hey, how about an Apprentice vs. Apprentice grand finale? Martha's winner takes on Donald's to see who chose the better candidate? That would be fun!
charma

She looks like someone and it's bugging the ever-living crud out of me that I can't place it. And, after all these seasons of watching the Donald do his firings, this was the first time I had a sense at the end that he was conflicted about it. The way he sat back and really seemed to be thinking about it was unusual. [/quote]

I think Sandra Bullock.
Bulldog
Did Marshawn have an exemption? I thought Kristi voted against it. Does the vote have to be unanimous, or just a majority?
HobokenMartha
Keupi, nice analysis. It actually made me soften on the Rebecca/Toral thing. I ended up taking my best friend to the hospital when she collapsed at home, and I went straight from the hospital to my job with no sleep after making sure she was stable. It does bond you intensely.

But it's also too little, too late. Given the taping schedule, I'm going to assume that Rebecca wouldn't have known that Kendra would become the first female Apprentice, since it wouldn't have aired yet.

Hey, by the way, where's Kelly?
fangums
Majority, bulldog.
Pundit
Well, I can't jump on the Toral bandwagon. I think it was nice of her to go to the hospital but, let's face it, Rebecca is her only friend in the house, so it's not a big stretch that she would have gone. And, for all we know, one of the others might have also been willing to go, just to be "nice," but when Toral offered, that took them off the hook. Her conceitedness is noteworthy and her disparaging comments about her teammates' intelligence and ability were nasty and ridiculous. Finally, she utterly FAILED at her simple task (which I am going to charitably assume was simply to introduce the seniors to HDTV, although who the heck knows why she was fiddling with the more esoteric features) and was probably a contributing reason for the loss; not only was she unable to perform, but more importantly also unwilling to correct the situation when it spiraled out of control. Given the attitude and ineptness she displayed, if Rebecca had brought her into the boardroom, I wouldn't have been surprised to see a double firing. (And, frankly, I would have done a triple firing... but I imagine Trump needs to fill a few more weeks on the TV schedule, ha ha.)
Swift86
Did anyone else besides me wonder why none of the other team members HELPED Toral when she was having problems at her station? Marshawn was standing right there at one point, and didn't do anything to help. I don't get the team attitude there. I guess they figured why not let her fail and then gang up on her? Not to mention the fact that why was Toral the only one who even CARED about Rebecca's ankle? I realize it's not the worst thing in the world, but Kristi sounded like she was exuding joy when she said "you broke it?", and Alla was smiling when Rebecca fell.

Also, Jennifer W., in her exit interview, basically blamed Rebecca, claiming that Rebecca as the PM did not give Jennifer W. the resources to do the event planning well. I think Jennifer W. is totally full of it, and I don't believe a word of it. Furthermore, she was saying that at one point in the preparations, she came back and was expecting "Toral and the other women" to help her blow up balloons, etc - yet then Jennifer W. went on about how Toral didn't. Why was she only mad at Toral? The other women didn't help her either (right?).

And now all of a sudden Jennifer W. is saying that the whole rest of the team found Toral to be the leak wink on all 3 tasks. Since when? This is the first we've heard any of them have ANY problem with Toral.

Jennifer W. is full of it. Toral is snotty, etc, but Jennifer W. is trying to blame EVERYTHING on Toral. Plus, in the second Boardroom when Rebecca was again criticizing the absolutely horrible job that Jennifer W. did, then Jennifer W. says that Rebecca is again letting her friendship with Toral cloud her judgment. Excuse me, but HUH? What does Toral have to do with Jennifer W.'s lousy job? Absolutely nothing.
Pundit
In general, in the workplace, when someone is giving a presentation and botching it, it doesn't help matters if someone else jumps in to "help." That's usually perceived by the presenter as an intrusion and an attempt to show them up as unprofessional or incapable. It's up to the presenter to correct the situation, not outsiders. Especially from what we know of her condescending attitude, I can't imagine any of the others offering their assistance to Toral; they would have gotten their heads bit off. Maybe Rebecca, but I think we all acknowledge she was MIA when it counted. Someone earlier mentioned that if Toral had just used a little humor, it would have diffused the situation. Not only does she seem incapable of that, she didn't even manage a simple SMILE at the Tethno Expo, unless I am remembering wrong.
Ashforth

And now all of a sudden Jennifer W. is saying that the whole rest of the team found Toral to be the leak wink on all 3 tasks. Since when? This is the first we've heard any of them have ANY problem with Toral.[/quote]
I think something similar happened with Audrey ("Don't hate me because I'm beautiful"). I remember a boardroom where suddenly she was blamed for being incompetent and the center of controversy on every task and I was, like, huh? Then she was PM on the next task and was a disaster.
blocked writer

Did anyone else besides me wonder why none of the other team members HELPED Toral when she was having problems at her station? Marshawn was standing right there at one point, and didn't do anything to help. I don't get the team attitude there. I guess they figured why not let her fail and then gang up on her?[/quote]

I can't say what happened there, I watch the re-run, but I was drowsy after a long day at work, so a few details are a bit fuzzy. But I will speculate that since they were all assigned different tasks, maybe Marshawn wasn't familiar enough with the equipment herself to step in. Or maybe she felt that it would make matters worse if she stepped in - it might be perceived as hijacking the presentation.

ETA:

Looks like Pundit beat me to it:


In general, in the workplace, when someone is giving a presentation and botching it, it doesn't help matters if someone else jumps in to "help." That's usually perceived by the presenter as an intrusion and an attempt to show them up as unprofessional or incapable. [/quote]

That's what I get for cooking and posting at the same time!
Keupi
I'm not jumping on a Toral-train, as I think she will not put this episode aside and will only fuel her into a downward spiral. I'm also not giving any excuse to her behavior - interviews and task performance. What I am willing to do is give consideration to the circumstances behind the interviews and her performance.

I think one of the other women should have at least tried to stepped in during the HDTV display. All that needed to be said was something to the effect of a bad battery in the remote. Move them to a different station, Jen M's?, and have them come back once the battery was replaced. Even then, when they came back, they could have used the female factor (ok, bad but stereotypes can be favorable in this instance) and said something to the effect that they put the wrong plug in somewhere while mentioning that HDTV comes with 'free' 'cheap' installation. No harm/No foul and move on.

Instead, everyone stood around and watched the train-wreck (which I do believe had a valid reason behind it) and did nothing. They lost by .2 - that's not all on Toral. It's also not all on Jen W nor on Rebecca. It's on the entire team when there is a loss that close.

Now, as a businessperson you look at how that slight of a loss occurred. Was it the management, a particular task, or an overall feeling? Plenty of if's and should's come to mind.

From the start, I said it really came down to atmosphere. I felt, and stated that if the atmosphere had been more inviting, any glitches in the presentation would have been overlooked. Given that the atmosphere was so cold and dark, the presentation team had to do a stellar job to make up that gap. The more I think about it, I can't fault Toral's performance because I really think that woman was so sleep-deprived it affected her functioning. I also can't fault Rebecca for putting an event into a professional event planner's hands. From the presentation side, there was no room for error because the atmosphere was already a blunder.
Trader Joe
Dear Toral,

You didnt even have to read the manual, the Best Buy Guy would have shown you how to use the TV. Betcha the Tv company has an 800 number you can call for help too. And BTW, I have the same remote for my TV and it does work.
RainbowRat

As said before, Rebecca should never have PM'ed this task (getting used to the crutches and ankle; sleep deprivation to name two reasons). <snip> When injured, I suspect in any fashion but I know in this fashion - bathing becomes a chore - other than a sponge bath, you really can't do it safely unless you have another person standing outside the door. Getting a glass of water requires help. Laundry is an absolute obstacle (and Rebecca may now be limited in her fashion selections). Etc. [/quote]

Good point among a bunch of good points, Keupi. 5 years ago I went in for minor foot surgery that was supposed to put me in a walking cast. I came out with a CAST cast. I had forgotten the issues you mentioned such as bathing (she'll need a chair in the shower!, and plastic bags around the cast always leak) and simple mobility from room to room. There are a lot of things you can't carry when you're moving with crutches, so you have to ask someone else to do it for you. She is seriously limited by that cast. Not to mention? Bone pain. Nothing to sneeze at, especially early on. CoTylenol cannot cure everything.

When Trump said she had the option to quit, I was like, duh, everyone has the option to quit, like Verna last season. But does he mean she could come back in another season? That might actually be a smart thing to do. I'd really like to see her at her full potential, and that is just not going to happen here, for at least half the episodes.

Oh, and Rebecca said "Clinic". CLINIC? This accident happened on a yooge-ly budgeted TV show. I'm not a lawsuit maven, but you'd think the show would be able to provide access to timely care in a case like this, where a candidate is injured in the course of being in the show.


From the start, I said it really came down to atmosphere. I felt, and stated that if the atmosphere had been more inviting, any glitches in the presentation would have been overlooked. Given that the atmosphere was so cold and dark, the presentation team had to do a stellar job to make up that gap.[/quote]

Not just atmosphere--there was no cohesive theme. The men provided reasons that the seniors would want to learn how to use this technology. The women just showed them how to use it.
Black Knight
Kristi's watched the Ivana parts of S2 way too much. And why did she look so awful in the boardroom?

I rolled my eyes at the guy who claimed Tivo is hard to set up. Tivo was a really good choice for the guys' expo, although it seems Markus went a little too much into the more advanced features. Really, with Tivo, all you have to do is stick the remote in the other person's hand, turn on whatever sporting event is currently on, and show them the joys of pausing, instant-rewinding, and slow-mo. And have at least one TV show pre-recorded and saved on the Tivo so they can experience the joy of FFing through the commercials.

I've sat through far too many meetings-turned-yakfests where it takes two hours to go through a 15-minute agenda because the person theoretically running the meeting doesn't. I thought Rebecca was dead on with the "everyone say their piece and then we'll discuss" because that's exactly how you keep a meeting from spinning out of control with the very first speaker. I appreciated it and I didn't find her abrasive. Who called her abrasive? Alla? Funny, because I do find Alla to be somewhat abrasive.

Rebecca escaped Chris's fate last week because while she didn't bring in someone who should have been brought in, she did bring in someone else who deserved to be there. As for Jen M., I actually got the feeling that Rebecca brought her in because of the way she used her sexuality, which the editing implied that both Rebecca and Carolyn witnessed. While Rebecca is beautiful and she knows it, she dresses appropriately and doesn't actively work her looks to manipulate people further. I got the feeling she didn't consider Jen M.'s behavior professional. When Trump asked Rebecca why Jen M. was there, it seemed to me like Rebecca was trying to figure out a way to say that that wouldn't sound excessively bitchy and judgmental, couldn't, and went with something more generic.

I think Rebecca might have brought Toral in with Jen W. if the women's team had not ganged up on Toral to the extent that the Donald seemed to be leaning much more towards Toral than Jen W., which just wasn't right. I didn't like Toral in this episode and thought she did a terrible job, but Jen W. was much more responsible for the failure of the task and deserved firing the most. And while with every losing task, you can always make an argument for the PM not overseeing everything enough to prevent whoever screwed up from screwing up and I will often favor firing the PM for that reason, I make an exception whenever the person who screwed up was working in his/her "specialty". If it's your field of expertise you shouldn't need to be micromanaged, and if for all your expertise you can't do a good job, then how can I think that you will handle anything else better? (Complete contrast to Sandy in S3 who demonstrated that she at the least is very competent at her day job.) Plus, Jen W. was just too weak and over-the-top with her crying. It's funny, though, I spent much of the episode thinking irritatedly about how much I hated the sound of her whining and how I'd hoped she'd be fired, but then when she did get fired, I felt sorry for her. Something about the particular kind of ineffectual doormat that she is. Plus I noticed how she helped Rebecca with her chair afterwards - I'm not sure if that was simply a classy move on her part or just another manifestation of her whipped-puppy tendencies, but either way it was nice and I want to give her the benefit of the doubt.

Something about watching Jen M. wrangle with Rebecca's suitcase in addition to her own made me laugh.

I really enjoyed the last shots of Trump, sitting back dissatisfied and wondering how things will play out. I agree with his assessment of Rebecca; there isn't going to be a middle ground here. She will either be great or flame out horribly. But heck, in a week where Markus made a nice turnaround, I'm inclined to be hopeful. (Although I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if it turns out to be Markus whom Trump was yelling at in the previews.)
RainbowRat

I'm sure Marshawn thinks the same shit, but we're not getting any snotterviews out of her on the topic (not that they don't exist). But as irrational as Toral's hatred may be, there's definitely something to it.[/quote]

On the other hand, fire, Marshawn did sound sort of self-congratulatory and smug in the boardroom when she called Toral on the "lack of technical knowledge", not that she was wrong. Something about Marshawn's tone just went straight to my hackles. It was the same response I had when Kristi, Alla, and--was it Felicia?--were off having their little bitch-coven at Best Buy.

I'm not all off on blondes, anyway. I mean, I was one myself for several years. These cliquemeisters do just happen to be blondes, but ugly is as ugly treats other people.

Regarding Jen M: Jacob had a lovely rant in Recap2 about people who are capable of blending in and looking normal and boring, but when you get to know them are just as interestingly idiosyncratic as you believe your own self to be. I dislike Jen M right now, based on her pageant-like self-presentation, but that might just be the camoflage that has been working for her up till now. She was wise enough not to open her mouth at all in the boardroom, so I'm prepared to cheerfully reverse my opinion in the future.
MightyThor

The guys won because they concentrated on the "Why", rather than the "how". The internet is useful because you can look up old girlfriends. Digital cameras are cool because you can print out pictures of your grandchildren immediately. DVR/Tivo is cool because you can pause it if you want to go get another cup of coffee. The editing gives you the impression that Jacob was the catalyst for the "super presentation" the men's team needed to come up with because of his "Sent from the devil" comment, but Trump actually said something about relating technology to daily life when he gave the assignment.[/quote]

I would credit Randal with the "why" emphasis in the presentation, actually, because I know that he had a lot of experience in grad school doing exactly these types of expos and presentations to children and seniors (as well as corporate sponsors). The display and food selection were straight out of the MIT Media Lab playbook, as well. The editing, however, does not give us direct evidence of Randal's participation/leadership, and I wonder why. Was he somehow genuinely passive, or is he getting the Kwame edit (nice, well-educated, classy but passive black man)? The only thing approaching direct evidence which was aired was the unanimous vote for his exemption from firing next week.
Keupi

I would credit Randal with the "why" emphasis in the presentation, actually, because I know that he had a lot of experience in grad school doing exactly these types of expos and presentations to children and seniors (as well as corporate sponsors). The display and food selection were straight out of the MIT Media Lab playbook, as well. The editing, however, does not give us direct evidence of Randal's participation/leadership, and I wonder why. Was he somehow genuinely passive, or is he getting the Kwame edit (nice, well-educated, classy but passive black man)? The only thing approaching direct evidence which was aired was the unanimous vote for his exemption from firing next week.[/quote]

Nope - think Randal did a great job. He was decisive (Markus vs. Clay in TiVo), authoritative, and respectful.
Kwame was not hands on enough. He never in the final even brought up the Omarosa lying - just smooth it over. He also didn't clarify who was in charge of events (Heidi/Troy in the MVP) until asked for that clarification by Heidi. Randal is very different in the fact that he makes a decision. With Clay, he was fine you dissent, noted, move on. He also realized that Markus could shine and let him. The unanimous vote was his icing on the cake. Unless he pulls a foolish, he's final 4 for sure.
MightyThor

Nope - think Randal did a great job. He was decisive (Markus vs. Clay in TiVo), authoritative, and respectful.
Kwame was not hands on enough. [/quote]

I totally agree with you. I just wonder about the edit he's receiving, because I felt I was seeing a product that reflected active leadership, yet almost no footage of that leadership.
Keupi
Randal's edit is circumspect. He's on my radar as a (note a not the) possible hire. All in all, he was the perfect choice for PM on this task, regardless of how the choice was made. No real drama, took a PM stance with Clay, and didn't marginalize Markus. Since this is a rainy Saturday in my neck of the woods, he gets a okey-dokey A-one overall!

Seriously, he cut through the drama, looked like the event was successful. No one on his team displayed some machismo display. He's cool for a number of weeks. Since Trump says this is about 'leading' one of his companies, I look at these people as who would I work for? Right now, Randal's at the top of the list. Though, we are only through week 3.
Hamhock96

I felt I was seeing a product that reflected active leadership, yet almost no footage of that leadership. [/quote]

The same complaint was made about Kendra; competence makes for boring television, so we are shown the unrepetent assy-ness of the incompetents because it's more entertaining and funnier. The competence has been attested to by the vote and the snippets, so it's fully acknowledged. It's just not good tv to show people carrying out a job well. The space looked great, the people were having fun, so were the team members. Looks like good leadership to me.
Maleficent
Here's some great insight from Alfred Edmond at blackenterprise.com.

He really does have great insight.

As a Ph.D., Rhodes scholar and holder of five degrees, it is far easier for Randal to fall short of (perhaps unfairly) high expectations than it is for him to meet, much less exceed, them. On this task, at least, he made it look almost too easy.

Wow. 5 degrees? I think Randal's got Kevin beat.

I really wasn't sure where I fell on the topic of the Toral/Rebecca/Jennifer W firing issue. All I know is that Edmond really makes me think twice about Don's decision. On the other hand, I think the show will be better with Rebecca instead of Jennifer W.
PinkyTuscadero

At least Toral can state that technology isn't her thing. Event Planning is Jen W's thing. She should have done much better.
[/quote]

I don't understand why, if Toral was TIVO-illiterate, Rebecca put her in charge of one of the stations. Jen was whiny and big fat cry baby...but Rebecca was the PM. Rebecca had the wrong people doing the wrong things and didn't bother to follow up with anyone to make sure they were doing their job. Jen W sucked, no question, but if we're going to count who mad emore errors I'd have to go with Rebecca. Rebecca felt a need to "show" everyone how good she is and just failed in every area.

Kristi has no discernable skills that I can see other than being able to throw daggers.

As far as their being a "pretty" clique...I don't know, call me crazy but I find Marshawn to be ten times as beautiful as Kristi, Felisha, Jen M and Alla. All four of them look like they've been rode hard and put away wet. All of them look a good ten years older than their publicized ages.


The same complaint was made about Kendra; competence makes for boring television, so we are shown the unrepetent assy-ness of the incompetents because it's more entertaining and funnier. The competence has been attested to by the vote and the snippets, so it's fully acknowledged. It's just not good tv to show people carrying out a job well. The space looked great, the people were having fun, so were the team members. Looks like good leadership to me.
[/quote]

I disagree with comparing Randal's edit to Kendra. In Randal's case we saw a lot more active participation. We also saw evidence of good leadership and strong communication skills/knoweldge. With Kendra it was stated after the fact or by Kendra herself. We heard from people that Kendra had all sorts of great ideas but we never really saw how they were developed or implemented. Randal approached Clay and reprimanded him for making negative comments about the task in front of George without alienating Clay. Not easy to do without having someone go on the defensive.

Not to mention, Randal stepped up to PM early in the game rather than hanging back and waiting til an opportune time.
MightyThor


I felt I was seeing a product that reflected active leadership, yet almost no footage of that leadership. [/quote]


The same complaint was made about Kendra; competence makes for boring television, so we are shown the unrepetent assy-ness of the incompetents because it's more entertaining and funnier. The competence has been attested to by the vote and the snippets, so it's fully acknowledged. It's just not good tv to show people carrying out a job well. The space looked great, the people were having fun, so were the team members. Looks like good leadership to me.[/quote]

To make a final attempt to clarify what I'm saying, I believe Randal was largely or completely responsible for the win - when I complain about his edit, I don't mean to say that he is receiving an edit which makes him look better than he is; rather, I think that he may be possibly receiving an edit which makes him look worse than he is. An edit which makes him look more like a Kwame (passive, hands-off).
Pundit
He gets big points for leadership, successful ideas for the expo, and pulling together a team that was infighting. He deserved the unanimous vote. That said, I've read that the entire concept of the task was something with which he was familiar (not to mention that I think it was an extremely easy task, all the more reason to be baffled when the women's team was so pathetic in more than one way). I'd like to see him in a leadership role in an unfamiliar task. I think he would shine.
auntiemame
This is very, very late, but: most annoying things about Jennifer W? When she had her crying freak-out in the suite, she said "damn" or something like that -- and then, when she heard herself, she went into a new paroxysm of freak-out and said, "oh no, now I've cussed! I hate cussing! Now I have to wash my mouth out with soap!"

Way to be 6 years old, Jenn.
ghettofabman

Not to mention, Randal stepped up to PM early in the game rather than hanging back and waiting til an opportune time. [/quote]

Speaking of which, I am so glad that Randal was a successful PM even with Markus still on the team! It shows that he can effectively work with all types of people without making them feel alienated or ostracized, thus making them hostile and unwilling to cooperate. I hope to God that he wins this.


This is very, very late, but: most annoying things about Jennifer W? When she had her crying freak-out in the suite, she said "damn" or something like that -- and then, when she heard herself, she went into a new paroxysm of freak-out and said, "oh no, now I've cussed! I hate cussing! Now I have to wash my mouth out with soap!"

Way to be 6 years old, Jenn. [/quote]

Oh my goodness, tell me about it! Jennifer Wilbanks was sooo ridiculous last episode with that whole spiel. Even though I think her line was more like "Ahm so fuckin' tired.......Aw, now ahm cussin! and I hate cussin'! Ah feel like ah need some soap!!!"

"Mah grandmaw makes the best cookies and cake!!! They were sugar freeeee!!"
Hamhock96

I'd like to see him in a leadership role in an unfamiliar task. I think he would shine. [/quote]

Well, that's the part that's so wonderful. Who knows for sure? Time will tell. But he's looking really good so far. The details! Matching shirts at the boardroom! It was like a wonderful performance, the entire task. Plus reward. More great photo ops to bring to the forefront that happy, generous, boy-o team. I love this show!
Lisetta
I can't stand Rebecca and I'm sorry to see Trump dealing with her rather than Martha. I think Martha, like George, would have called her on the "this team (except for myself and Toral) would only be suited to do clerical work for you" put-down of the other women.

I also think Martha would have smacked her down for "I'd like to see you hire a woman", meaning, in context, to hire Rebecca or Toral as none of the others were remotely capable.

I think Martha would have responded, "I'm looking for the best person, male OR female", and taken the smug look off Rebecca's face. I also think she, unlike Trump, would have pushed Rebecca harder on what she actually was responsible for on the task and what she felt she and Toral had done so well, to warrant all the boasting.

TA:M is not doing very well in the ratings, but I vastly prefer Martha's style in the boardroom. I don't think people (women or men) can manipulate her with their looks/personality/gamesmanship as easily as they can with Trump. In that way--and in the relevance of its tasks-- TA:M is very refreshing.
auntiemame

I think Martha, like George, would have called her on the "this team (except for myself and Toral) would only be suited to do clerical work for you" put-down of the other women.[/quote]

ITA, Lisetta. Martha has much better bullshit-detector than Donald, I think, or at least more of a willingness to comment on the obvious BS the contestants sometimes try to pass off as truth. But I don't think Rebecca made the clerical work comment -- I believe that was Toral, and Toral alone.

I thought Toral should have been called on that comment, if only as a warning shot against such rude behavior. But I think what Rebecca and Toral are doing is quite sensible -- the Heathers are targeting them for criticism, and it is IMO very smart of Rebecca and Toral to go on the offensive, rather than be on the defensive. Besides which, giving the Heathers a taste of their own medicine, alliance-wise, is just smart survival, I think. It's easier to take out a lone wolf than a team.

And I guess, despite the unfortunate choice of words around it, the "we're better" argument doesn't really disappoint me, essentially, because isn't that what Trump wants to hear? He wants to hire the so-called best, and if the contestants present themselves that way I just call that savvy self-marketing. Trump calls contestants on that constantly:

Trump: Are you saying you're better than Joan Smith?
Apprentice: Well, uh, she's very smart, uh...
Trump: Do you believe you're better, yes or no?
Apprentice: Well sir, I think we all have our strengths....
Trump: If you're not better than she is, why should I hire you?

So why not anticipate the argument and just come right out and say you're better? I mean, that's why they're there. To represent themselves as the best for the job.

I also think it will be interesting to see what Rebecca does when Toral is gone, which I think will happen pretty soon based on Trump's "I would have fired Toral" comment. She's either going to have to shop around for a new female ally or hope Trump merges the teams sometime soon and that will dilute the power of the Heathers.
Lisetta

But I don't think Rebecca made the clerical work comment -- I believe that was Toral, and Toral alone. [/quote]
Was it? I admit that I missed parts of this ep, but I thought that Rebecca repeated that to Trump in the boardroom, as part of her defense for why Toral shouldn't be called back.

As for the "Heather" thing, again, I admit that I missed bits of this, so I may have missed something that made the others look totally in the wrong and R/T look completely vindicated in their bitchiness toward them, but...I just didn't see it.

There was that clip at BB where the women seemed to be unmotivated and uninterested in getting into the task (and I think they all lacked technical skills, which was never addressed), but I didn't catch parts where they were actually, unfairly, trying to just gangup on Rebecca and Toral just to be mean.

I find it hard to believe that no one else was sympathetic to Rebecca's accident except Toral. That's so abnormal that it just seems it's -got- to be the editing. So, so far, I'm not holding that against them.

And since they were completely right, imo, about Rebecca's horrible "leadership", and I didn't see anything so horribly cliquish from all of the others, I'm not judging them as being any worse than R/T were, and several of them (Marshawn? Jen M? still seem...quite a bit better). Kristi can go, though. Soon.

Overall, though, I don't see -any- of the women acquitting themselves very well in this season, not based on teamwork, skills, or on leadership. Yes, Rebecca showed she can go toe-to-toe with Trump and not blink, but she still was a completely incompetent leader and, imo, at least quite unpleasant.
BuonGiorno

I find it hard to believe that no one else was sympathetic to Rebecca's accident except Toral. That's so abnormal that it just seems it's -got- to be the editing. So, so far, I'm not holding that against them.[/quote]

I am sure all of them were sympathetic. Toral decided to go with her to the hospital - well, they are roommates and friends, and there was no need for more people to accompany Rebecca. When she came back and settled in her room, I think all of them came to visit with her; I am sure I saw Alla and Kristi coming in and followed by other women. I think they did what civil people do in such circumstances. After the last episode, in which Rebecca and Toral voiced their unsolicited assessment of the rest of the women on the team, I am not expecting any warmth coming from the women towards these two little snobs.

Btw, the clerical work comment was made by Toral. Rebecca said almost the same in the board room, but in a much more diplomatic way (which makes her a more articulate bitch).
quaintirene
It's taken me til now to watch my TiVO of this episode. Rebecca? Wow. 'Don't fire me because I'm beautiful...' I'm prepared to bet good money that she's the one that Trumpie called the most beautiful he's ever had on his show. Jennifer did deserve to go, but I'm assuming Rebecca signed off on her event, so Rebecca did as well. Rebecca should have gone just for not bringing Toral into the Boardroom.
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