I still don't get how Rebecca and Toral got away with the 'we're smartest' argument - since a huge reason for the failure of the project lies at their collective feet. Toral didn't bother to prepare, couldn't figure out how to do her task. Rebecca, the PM, didn't coordinate to make sure that Jennifer W makes the right choices for decor. It doesn't take a special 'decorator' sense to see that the place doesn't look good.
And I'm still waiting to hear what on earth makes Toral such a genius. What is one thing she has done on the show to provide the smallest shred of evidence of her giant intellect? (beside constantly telling us that it is indeed giaaaant). [/quote]
WORD,
sesstr. What makes someone a good candidate isn't what they can write about themselves on paper... it's how they actually perform during a job or project. Toral's qualifications may look good on paper, and they may even look better than everyone else's, but your resume only indicates part of what you're capable of handling. Neither Toral nor Rebecca seem to be good with people, and that is probably 60% of what most people need to succeed in any profession.
IMO, Trump looks for candidates with good credentials, yes, but he also looks for people that are good with clients and come up with creative ideas, who are also good leaders who can respect their team without being condescending. He also looks for candidates who are willing to LEARN, which is why his remark about Rebecca being inflexible was very telling. I don't think she or Toral have a snowball's chance of winning this thing now.
I don't see Rebecca's resemblance to Sandra Bullock, I think she looks like Victoria Beckham.[/quote]
And I was thinking she looked like a brunette version of Monica Potter.
ETA:
Also, the best bosses are willing to jump in and do something basic or tedious, if necessary. I've seen great bosses do filing, proofread documents, photocopying, etc. when someon who usually does it is out of the office. I've seen others who will walk past a fax or copy machine to give an assistant a two-page fax to send or 5 copies to make because they considered it beneath them.[/quote]
One of my old supervisors used to say the phrase, "We have people for that" when she had to get something done that she considered menial. I'm the type that will jump in and do whatever needs to be done, no matter what the task. She was eventually fired (and her attitude had a lot to do with it), while I not only took her place, but was shortly thereafter promoted to a position higher than the one she held. Attitude means a lot, especially when you're supervising a staff.
blocked writer
Oct 7, 2005 @ 10:51 am
It was her job. She wasn't prepared and didn't do a good job.[/quote]
I agree. For all her pretensions, it was a simple and obvious thing she overlooked, to get some basic familiarity with the product before trying to teach others how to use it.
Also, the best bosses are willing to jump in and do something basic or tedious, if necessary. I've seen great bosses do filing, proofread documents, photocopying, etc. when someon who usually does it is out of the office. I've seen others who will walk past a fax or copy machine to give an assistant a two-page fax to send or 5 copies to make because they considered it beneath them.
A boss shouldn't be expected to do clerical work all the time, but the good ones pitch in and do whatever is necessary if the situation calls for it, andthey don't sneer at the tasks, they just get the job done.
Hamhock96
Oct 7, 2005 @ 10:54 am
My point is that whether or not the seniors were interested in the technology, for them this was a social event. The difference in the scores was very small. If the overall presentation had been more welcoming, if they had enjoyed the food and the atmosphere, Matchstick would likely have won. [/quote]
Which puts Rebecca totally in the cross-hairs. With all their bragging about superior female skills to put onto this task, no superior "female" skills were in evidence. These women are virtually all incompetent. At least one of them should have known that the presentation was crap.
A boss shouldn't be expected to do clerical work all the time, but the good ones pitch in and do whatever is necessary if the situation calls for it, andthey don't sneer at the tasks, they just get the job done.
[/quote]
Right. One thinks of Bill from Season One checking the garbage for that sign. I remember Michael putting that basement together for Kendra, too. Seems that men are more detail-oriented at these things. The women seem to be afraid that they will be "typecast" if they show any housekeeping skills at all.
Scrizzy
Oct 7, 2005 @ 10:55 am
Well, even though I just defended Toral, I do get the hate expecially with the whole "hire as a secretary" speech. And, if her job was to explain the working of the HDTV, she should have prepared so that she could do a good job at it.
[/quote]
Of course we have no way of knowing how much preperation she did. I know many smart people who aren't great with electronic gadgetry. Unless she failed to even once demonstrate the HDTV, it is fair to assume that she did learn how to do it, just not well enough to replicate it consistantly.
As for the secretary speech; she lives with these people 24 hours a day. I see them for maybe a half-hour a week and it's pretty clear that they are limited. In an actual business environment that's probably the most someone like Kristi or Jen M. is qualified to be.
However this is not a business environment, it is the Trumpiverse and Toral should have been aware from past seasons that qualifications are meaningless and you can indeed get fired for not working a television correctly even though it has nothing to do with anything. It's a popularity contest.
Actually the whole thing reminded me of an old Saturday Night Live when they were doing a mock Bush-Dukakis debate and after Bush goes on and on about his "Thousand points of light, stay the course,... stay the course", Dukakis turns to the camera and says "I can't believe I'm losing to this guy."
That's how I would feel if I was Toral and that group of Gidgets were ganging up on me. "I can't believe I'm losing to these guys."
adso
Oct 7, 2005 @ 10:56 am
Integrity is truly the last defense for the embattled reality show contestant.
Sorry Rebecca, but true integrity would mean taking those to the boardroom who truly contributed to the teams failure, regardless of your personal feelings towrds them.
That team's implosion is going to be yuuuuge.
CheekyCricket
Oct 7, 2005 @ 10:55 am
And I'm still waiting to hear what on earth makes Toral such a genius. What is one thing she has done on the show to provide the smallest shred of evidence of her giant intellect? (beside constantly telling us that it is indeed giaaaant). [/quote]
I'll settle for something that demonstrates actual business-related skills. For someone who claims to have more serious professional experience than everyone else on her team (except Rebecca), she seems to lack basic management abilities, and her interpersonal skills are abysymal.
Or perhaps she's just keeping them hidden until the right moment . . .
For all her pretensions, it was a simple and obvious thing she overlooked, to get some basic familiarity with the product before trying to teach others how to use it. [/quote]
This is exactly what I mean. If she messed up a simple business-related task, such as product demonstration, then what can she do? I get the impression that she excels in solo tasks where she can sit alone at a computer and crunch numbers.
After witnessing Toral's lousy attitude toward most of her team, I think she's dead wrong in assuming that the rest of Capital Edge dislikes her because of some cliquish sorority vibe that has made her "the unpopular one." From what I saw, she's earned their animosity, and has given them no reason to like her or respect her. But, then again, it's amazing how often rude, self-centered, conceited people assume that if others dislike them, it's not because of anything THEY'VE done, it's because something's wrong with everyone else.
snarknyc
Oct 7, 2005 @ 10:59 am
What I don't like this season is that when a team loses, they all seem to get together and decide who the scapegoat is. If they had successfully gotten rid of Toral this week, the "7 extremely intelligent women who can never be wrong" would band together and go after Rebecca the next time. And then they would find a new scapegoat. I think Trump was right to not give into that gang mentality, even if Rebecca or Toral deserved to be fired. This is not survivor, and alliances should not work.
Pundit
Oct 7, 2005 @ 11:03 am
There was something exceedingly creepy about the interraction between the women and the old men. I can't quite define it, but it was gross.[/quote]
I thought it was cute. Elderly men have pulses, too. They were getting a kick out of the attractive female attention and they weren't taking it too seriously. Jennifer struck the right note when she teased back that she didn't know what she was going to do with him. I found a little creepy (or exploitive) the camera shots of Jennifer exercising. Five bucks says it was a man doing the camera work. Heh.
Nutjob
Oct 7, 2005 @ 11:06 am
I think Trump was right to not give into that gang mentality, even if Rebecca or Toral deserved to be fired. This is not survivor, and alliances should not work. [/quote]
I agree, but I also think any "alliances" are nullified by the fact that George and Carolyn observe the tasks and know what is actually happening. If they had all tried to scapegoat, say, the other Jennifer (the one that did the push ups), it wouldn't have worked, because Carolyn saw how well she was working with the old guys. I don't like the gang mentality either, but this time I think Toral deserved the vitriol.
BTW... I'm kind of glad Jen W. got fired, because I think she would have had a heart attack by the end had she stayed around. What a freak out!
Oh, and darn Markus for saying the funniest thing of the night--"There's still a turd in the pool here." It was dorky, but kind of endearing, and I hate him for making me think that.
CheekyCricket
Oct 7, 2005 @ 11:08 am
I think Trump was right to not give into that gang mentality, even if Rebecca or Toral deserved to be fired. This is not survivor, and alliances should not work.[/quote]
It seems to me that the only "alliance" was between Rebecca and Toral, who decided that they were better than everyone else, and made no attempt to hide their attitude. The other team members sensed this, saw Toral's lousy performance and knew that because of her alliance with Rebecca, she'd slide out of it. Which is exactly what happened. They resented it, and justly so, at least in my book. That situation was created by Rebecca and Toral, and not dreamed up by some "coven."
AdrienneP
Oct 7, 2005 @ 11:09 am
I don't get the hate for Toral. As far as I can tell her major sin was not being an HDTV expert. If that's what Trump is looking for then he should be interviewing Best Buy employees. Toral also has a point about qualifications, because let's be honest, if this isn't a reality show she is probably the only woman there who has a shot at landing a high-level management position.[/quote]
But Trumpie picked these 16 candidates. Ratings or not, I don't honestly believe, with a job for him on the line, he would pick anyone who at least on paper would not be qualified to work for him. Toral's credentials put her on equal footing with 7 other women. The fact that Trumpie also went to Wharton might be a plus, but any savvy candidate should know and understand that it also might mean you have to work harder to prove yourself. Her smug self-importance is absolutely the wrong approach, and I'm confident in our boy that he will can her ass accordingly.
tiggeril
Oct 7, 2005 @ 11:09 am
Jennifer struck the right note when she teased back that she didn't know what she was going to do with him. I found a little creepy (or exploitive) the camera shots of Jennifer exercising. Five bucks says it was a man doing the camera work. Heh.
[/quote]
Does Trump watch the dailies? Maybe he promised the camera guys a bonus.
netful
Oct 7, 2005 @ 11:10 am
WORD, sesstr. What makes someone a good candidate isn't what they can write about themselves on paper[/quote]
I can't remember exactly how Trump put it, but when the girls objected to Toral saying that she was smarter than them, he jumped in and said that she was, indeed, smarter than them because you have to be smart just to get in to Wharton. He then went on to say that, on the other hand, graduating from Wharton doesn't mean you possess common sense or people skills or WTTE. Obviously Toral would have been on the "Book Smarts" team from a previous season.
A degree from "Anywhere" University or Business School means squat if you don't have the other skill sets necessary to make it in business.
auntiemame
Oct 7, 2005 @ 11:43 am
One of my old supervisors used to say the phrase, "We have people for that" when she had to get something done that she considered menial. I'm the type that will jump in and do whatever needs to be done, no matter what the task. She was eventually fired (and her attitude had a lot to do with it), while I not only took her place, but was shortly thereafter promoted to a position higher than the one she held. Attitude means a lot, especially when you're supervising a staff.[/quote]
I definitely like your approach better. There is a common, and legitimate, line of reasoning though among female execs (or would-be execs) that doing anything perceived to be menial, even so much as grabbing your co-worker a coffee as you're getting one, tends to reinforce ideas of women being at the bottom of the executive totem pole. That's why some female execs are so strident about having assistants make copies, etc. In some male minds, the line between female admin and female exec is often not delineated enough, and if women execs want to make the line clearer they can't be seen as servile. Unfortunately, this can also be perceived as not being a team-player, which plays into a whole other set of stereotypes about women.
I dunno, I definitely think there is a sorority-sister clique among the blondes. And slowly, surely, they are turning against the brunettes. (Melissa, Marshawn, Rebecca, Toral have all been brutally criticized, even though Kristi is more incompetent than all of them put together and we haven't seen her get the brunt of bad reactions from her teammates). If the brunettes take arms against the blonde clique, then I don't see the problem. It's self-defense, isn't it? It doesn't seem unnatural to me that people would look for alliances, is all.
welcomematt
Oct 7, 2005 @ 11:52 am
You know what I'd love to see? Carolyn and George have to work with each team, and compete against each other. I know it'll never happen but that would be fascinating to me.
jewelbox
Oct 7, 2005 @ 11:56 am
And I was thinking she [Rebecca] looked like a brunette version of Monica Potter.[/quote]
Nutjob, me, too!
Smushergirl
Oct 7, 2005 @ 12:04 pm
I wonder what they would have done if the men had lost on the evaluation sheets. It was surprisingly close, despite what appeared to be a far superior presentation by the men (including, I thought, far more appropriate and appealing products that they chose to demonstrate). If the women had won because of their sex appeal, would Trump have accepted that?
KathyF
Oct 7, 2005 @ 12:10 pm
If Toral hadn't screwed up the simple task of working a TV, perhaps they would have gotten a few extra tenths of a point. It's true that maybe the decor would have gotten them extra points. But I also think that the general attractiveness of the women (as commented by one guy) probably got them extra points as well, so I think it's a wash.[/quote]
My problem is that we don't really know how the teams scored in the different areas. If I had been the project manager I would have wanted to see all of the score sheets. That way you would know exactly which areas got good scores and which ones didn't. To me that would be the only way to know who was really to blame. We don't even know the questions that were asked. It looked like they were graded on about 10 areas. I would like to know what the areas were and how they scored. That way I could really make an informed decision as to who was to blame.
meknownothing
Oct 7, 2005 @ 12:14 pm
Rebecca's strategy for bringing the two Jennifer's into the Board Room? She remembers that Trump sorted them all initially into teams of men and women because "he had trouble telling them apart". Rebecca realized that she could confuse the Donald by over-Jennifer-ing!
I did like the way the guys all called out Clay on his obvious play to George.
When do we get to see Carolyn trying out the Donald's chair?
Nutjob
Oct 7, 2005 @ 12:17 pm
I did like the way the guys all called out Clay on his obvious play to George.[/quote]
And what a terrible play it was! Heh. He might as well have said something like:
"Yeah, um George, we all know you're old and crusty, and this is YOUR age group, so give us some suggestions on how old farts such as yourself would respond to what we're planning."
BluenoserGal
Oct 7, 2005 @ 12:25 pm
Trump looks for candidates with good credentials, yes, but he also looks for people that are good with clients and come up with creative ideas, who are also good leaders who can respect their team without being condescending. He also looks for candidates who are willing to LEARN, [/quote]
I'm watching a different show then. He also looks for former beauty queens, future wives, famewhores and drama queens.
Nutjob
Oct 7, 2005 @ 12:27 pm
I'm watching a different show then. He also looks for former beauty queens, future wives, famewhores and drama queens. [/quote]
He looks for those types to be on the show. He doesn't, however, hire them. Bill and Kendra both possess those qualities I mentioned before. Kelly is the least of the hirees, but then, everyone that season sucked.
BluenoserGal
Oct 7, 2005 @ 12:34 pm
He looks for those types to be on the show. He doesn't, however, hire them. Bill and Kendra both possess those qualities I mentioned before. Kelly is the least of the hirees, but then, everyone that season sucked. [/quote]
True. And I think that's the reason he was pissed at having to fire Chris last week - he was one of the 'chosen few' that Donald wanted to go far, as opposed to others whom they cast for the quirkiness/crazy factor. Unfortunately, there's a lot of the latter and not so much of the former.
ETA -- Loyal Viewer! Yay!
Slump
Oct 7, 2005 @ 12:43 pm
For a minute there, I thought Trump was going to fire Rebecca for bringing in Jennifer M. rather than Toral. I guess after standing up to him and and seeing how the other Jennifer was an emotional disaster in the making, he seemed to respect her moxie and spared her.
I do agree, however, with the decision to fire Jennifer W and her Minnie Mouse voice. I couldn't decide who's voice was more annoying, hers or Kristi's. The event planning sucked, and when she was called out on it, she started crying. That alone showed that she wouldn't be able to handle a tough corporate position.
Speaking of Kristi, I guess Ivana is Kristi's paradigm of how to compete on this show. After all, sucking as a project manager and then having the temerity to criticize others as PMs helped Ivana get to the top five before resorting to dropping trou in the middle of Wall Street. I hope Kristi gets called out on that sooner rather than later.
Speaking of critics, Josh, until I see you do something constructive, your snarking on others don't carry any weight to me.
MarigoldSkye
Oct 7, 2005 @ 12:52 pm
I personally believe Donald Trump should have called the person who made the cake and put "Tethno Expo" on it in huge letters, and promptly fired that person. I don't care who it was.
CheekyCricket
Oct 7, 2005 @ 12:52 pm
If the brunettes take arms against the blonde clique, then I don't see the problem. It's self-defense, isn't it? It doesn't seem unnatural to me that people would look for alliances, is all.
[/quote]
Only Marshawn is firmly on the "blonde clique's" side, at least where Toral's concerned. Rebecca and Toral haven't invited her into their "brunette alliance against the blondes." And I haven't heard many negative comments from Jennifer M, so I don't see how she fits in, except that she's blonde and beautiful, so I guess she gets lumped in with the other blondes.
I'm not convinced that it has much to do with hair color, mainly because Rebecca and Toral seem irritating enough (on a personal level) to have earned the dislike of the rest of the group: they feel superior, and have no hesitation in expressing their sense of superiority, but I've yet to see them demonstrate any superior business skills. Of course, I'm a blonde, so maybe I'd be lumped in with the "sorority clique," too . . .
JTMacc99
Oct 7, 2005 @ 12:55 pm
Toral saying that she was smarter than them, he jumped in and said that she was, indeed, smarter than them because you have to be smart just to get in to Wharton.[/quote]I need to go watch that again. At the time I thought he was just trying to say that she was very smart, but I thought he was careful not to actually say "smarter". It's tough with Trump, because he totally would say that somebody is smarter than somebody else, right to the somebody else's face.
On Rebecca's looks, she's
Sandra Bullock to me.
Ashforth
Oct 7, 2005 @ 1:00 pm
We don't even know the questions that were asked. It looked like they were graded on about 10 areas. I would like to know what the areas were and how they scored. That way I could really make an informed decision as to who was to blame.[/quote]
Too true, KathyF! To me the show is much more interesting when it focuses on the tasks than when it celebrates the personal infighting and histrionics of the contestants.
outtacontrol
Oct 7, 2005 @ 1:01 pm
"I would have to say that there are a group of women here that have seemed to have banded together based on the fact that they have no work experience. (the editors show us Felisha, Kristi, and the two Jens) I like them all on the personal level. I think they're cute people. If I had a secretary job or an administrative job I would happily hire any of these people."[/quote]
I didn't catch that -- have to watch again tonight because I thought she was bitch ENOUGH with what I DID hear. How can she even hope to have a civil relationship with her teammates after that? I'd be sorely tempted to put a little Drano in her Red Bull.
auntiemame
Oct 7, 2005 @ 1:03 pm
Of course, I'm a blonde, so maybe I'd be lumped in with the "sorority clique," too . . . [/quote]
Aw, don't take it like that. Real life isn't the Apprentice (thank God) and there are no Hair-Color Wars in real life (that I know of, anyway). I only meant these blondes and these brunettes. The blondes did say something about Toral that was like, "she's not one of us," didn't they? So if Toral and her BFF Rebecca saw where things were going and wanted to screw them right back, I see no problem with that, strategy-wise.
But you kind of make a good point about Marshawn. I'll watch again.
Scrizzy
Oct 7, 2005 @ 1:11 pm
I didn't catch that -- have to watch again tonight because I thought she was bitch ENOUGH with what I DID hear. How can she even hope to have a civil relationship with her teammates after that? I'd be sorely tempted to put a little Drano in her Red Bull.
[/quote]
She didn't say it to them, it was in an interview.
BassetHound
Oct 7, 2005 @ 1:21 pm
Unless [Toral] failed to even once demonstrate the HDTV, it is fair to assume that she did learn how to do it, just not well enough to replicate it consistantly. [/quote]Well, that's a "it's all in the editing" argument. We can only go on what we see, and we saw Toral fail to demonstrate the product with someone sitting right there. When doing a presentation, the goal is to be able to demonstrate the product everytime. In the Home Depot task last season, the team that demonstrated the "mobile kitchen island" task screwed up assembling it in front of the crowd, and that cost them, too.
I'm glad Jennifer's gone. Her hysterical, crying, rending-of-garments hissy-fit was pathetic.
JuliaCarpenter
Oct 7, 2005 @ 1:23 pm
What exactly was that Clay did that prompted the "bitch" comment from Josh?
I remember Clay's faux pas towards George, bu I am totally banked out regarding what is it Clay was fighting about with Marcus?
Any help?
Thanks!
MarigoldSkye
Oct 7, 2005 @ 1:27 pm
Is it Markus or Marcus? Anyway, Clay just immediately decided when Marcus suggested it that TiVo would not be a good thing to showcase and proceeded to tell them all so. Basically, he bitched before he even saw how it would work.
shutitdown
Oct 7, 2005 @ 1:33 pm
Since when do men call each other "bitches?" When they're gay? I thought that was bizarre[/quote]
Shutitdown husband and I laughed our asses of at that since my father-in-law calls men bitches all of the time. If he would have used the therm "them bitches" I would have been a gonner.
I didn't have a problem with Jennifer M, the Christie Brinkley one, flirting with the older guys. My dad is 81 and loves to flirt with younger women. Both parties know it is harmless so why not. I didn't get a letch vibe from any of the men.
Don't call George an old coot. He will remember that the next time you are in the board room and make you suffer. George was so cute eating the cookies. More George please!
BassetHound
Oct 7, 2005 @ 1:39 pm
I just remembered a very funny moment from this show. When Trump, Carolyn and George are at the children's park, talking about "giving back" etc., And George says "you got a big slope here" and Trump and Carolyn kind of exchange smirks and Trump goes "That's OK, we've got great tractors." Like George, you're a great lawyer, let me handle development type vibe.
Madhoo
Oct 7, 2005 @ 1:39 pm
shutitdown, considering JenM's pushups probably brought their score up a bit, I don't think she did too bad. I guess that was one of the reasons why I was furious she was brought into the boardroom. I remember Trump firing other PMs for bringing people into the boardroom for no fault, so it is really weird why Rebecca was spared.
AnnieBananie
Oct 7, 2005 @ 1:41 pm
I cannot believe that not only did the women score as well as they did, but they were only one point under the men. Because those expos? Absolute opposite ends of the spectrum. I could hear crickets (crickets, people!) at the women's, and the men's was slick, well-done, the food and banners were great, and they weren't fouling up everything they touched.
benrod1
Oct 7, 2005 @ 1:44 pm
Question - werent the blondes the same ones who bitched about Marshawn not babysitting them during the video shoot? I think it was Kristi who voted against immunity for Marshawn and the other two voted for it. I think this may be where Rebecca got her "us against them" from.
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