TWoP Forums > 4-3: "Something Old, Something New" 2005.10.06

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TWoP Forums > Current TWoP Shows > The Apprentice > The Apprentice General Gabbery

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GoddessMelissa

Oct 7, 2005 @ 7:37 am

I still don't get all the Toral hate by the women, unless she is walking around like a snob, I didn't see her make any major mistakes.[/quote]

When Toral was snotting to Markus earlier in the episode, it looked like she was doing it in front of the other women. I never understand how people take "I'm not here to make friends" to such extremes. It's possible to be sociable, like one would do if you need to get through TEAM competitions, and not part of the coffee club.

Last week, we had exploiting dead grandmom, this week-exploiting children with terminal illnesses--I guess next weeks task will involve teaming up with Angelina Jolie to sell third-world children to rich Americans.
ETA: I'm referring to the most recent baby broker scandals that have been in the news, where these brokers were exploiting poor families to get hold of their children to sell to Americans, in particular. The company that Jolie got her first baby from is one of the companies involved.

Masem

Oct 7, 2005 @ 7:41 am

Maybe the cake wasn't misspelled; maybe the women were bringing in that classic rock group "Tethno Jull".

An edit worthy of the Amazing Race - the shots of various walkers, canes, etc. as people filed into the women's event, and then a shot of a wheelchair... pan out to see with Rebecca in it. Hee.

Wow, you could actually see the men all clamber to the walls as soon as George was asked his opinion as "an older person".

Way back, someone said this was a rewardless reward, that charity should come from the heart, as well as the Martha charity task being more back-breaking. While I agree, I think that one can fairly call this a reward because it's rare for an average person to be able to give more than a few dollars, while here, the men got the chance to give away $25-$50k worth of electronics to hospital-bound kids. Additionally, I think, as on both shows, the respective teams had a lot of fun with the kids as they did their task, and that can it itself be fun and invigorating (as I'm sure there's still kid-oriented tasks in the future for them, this can only help too).

ellisbell

Oct 7, 2005 @ 7:42 am

mertensia

Oct 7, 2005 @ 7:55 am

Upthread someone asked about movies to watch- one little kid was shown being given the Aladdin DVD.

MetropolisGal

Oct 7, 2005 @ 7:55 am

I completely and utterly hate the “pretty girls” clique. Toral was in no way, shape or form the reason they lost the task. They lost because the “party planning” was devoid of fun, food and cheer. It was a sad, pathetic little expo. They did nothing to make it an enjoyable atmosphere for the seniors. How was that Toral’s fault? Yes, she couldn’t operate the HDTV but why did none of the other girls go to her and trade booths? Let mega-bitch Jennifer M actually do something aside from flirt with old men because obviously that is the only thing which she is capable of doing.[/quote]

Oh word, word, A THOUSAND TIMES WORD!

Except I wouldn't call ANY of them pretty. Not with that helmet hair they have.

To borrow a phrase from the late, great XFiles forum, I'm dubbing them "The Uniblonders".

Kristi and Alla are turning out to be snakes in the grass. "Don't feel jazzed?" What the fuck? This is a job interview, ladies. Don't stand there with your thumbs up your asses talking about how you weren't properly motivated. DO something. And my "something" I don't mean whispering around the suite. [/quote]

Thank you! That's what cemented my hatred of those no-talent bitches. They were standing around plotting how they were going to take Rebecca into the boardroom, BEFORE THE TASK! And then their brilliant presentations consisted of doing pushups in front of a bunch of geezers. Yeah, you're some of the most brilliant women in America!

Wow. I think I broke the sarcasm meter.

Oh these damn women. The cattiness, the whining, the crying, the pimping oneself to pitch a heart monitor. Now I understand why I work so hard and don't earn equal pay.[/quote]

Thank you again! I've watched this show since Season One, and I have yet to be impressed with the women on this show. Even Kendra, who won last year, was just OKAY! But at least she had enough sense to go with a construction project and not the Miss Universe pagent like stupid-ass Tana last year!

Would it kill Trump to pick some women as potential apprentices who actually behave like professionals? Because if I want catfights, I'll watch "America's Next Top Model" (and I do.)

As for the previews, please GOD let it be Clay who gets his ass thrown out next week. He is such a whining little pissant!

And Go Markus! I hope he's in the final two!

GoddessMelissa

Oct 7, 2005 @ 7:56 am

Whoa, GoddessMelissa, I agree the sick kids and the funeral were a little squicky, but rich Americans don't BUY third-world children.[/quote]
I edited my post for clarification, sorry.

tres francaise

Oct 7, 2005 @ 8:03 am

Let's see:

1 - the atmosphere in the area stinks, the refreshments stink...the event planner's fault.
2 - the TV demo didn't work...the demonstrator's fault.
3 - the comment cards the editors selected to be read onscreen specifically picked out the team's problems with the equipment as a problem...did anybody beside Toral have problems that we didn't see?
4 - the geezers apparently downgraded the gals because they didn't demonstrate the equipment well.
5 - the viceroys picked up on the layout, etc.

If there are two different, glaring problems with a project, why does the PM get a pass? Could it be her 'nobility' in taking the PM job with a broken ankle? Climb down off the cross, Rebecca, & don't play the pity/empathy card by rolling around in a wheelchair on The Day at the center. Five months ago I had an accident that resulted in a broken ankle on one leg & a fractured kneecap on the other & guess what? I sucked it up, refrained from whining & went on with my life. Millions of people with more serious, often permanent, physical problems do the same thing every day.

Anyone else relishing the final tasks when we might see Melissa & Toxic Toral on a team? Have the phone number of the Poison Control Center ready.

ETA: Rebecca? I find you so obnoxious that I won't even point out to you, as someone upthread did, that you'd be a lot more comfortable if you adjusted your crutches. Suffer.

cristobal

Oct 7, 2005 @ 8:03 am

To borrow a phrase from the late, great XFiles forum, I'm dubbing them "The Uniblonders".[/quote]

MetropolisGal - I am so stealing that and shall use it on every occasion humanly possible.

blocked writer

Oct 7, 2005 @ 8:05 am

Just a quick word in defense of Toral (and in explanation of Rebecca's loyalty to her). I' ve spent enough time in emergency rooms waiting and waiting and waiting for the person I'm with to be treated to know that volunteering to accompany someone is an act of great nobility. Volunteering to accompany someone you hardly know when you're on a tight schedule with heavy duty obligations the following day positively qualifies you for sainthood.

Toral might have been condescending about the other women on her team, but she was the one who gave up what little free time she had to help out one of them who really needed that help. [/quote]

It was nice of Toral to accompany Rebecca to the ER, and I'm sure Rebecca was properly grateful. However, it really should have had nothing to do with who to take into the boardroom. If she had argued effectively that Toral didn't deserve to go in, then fine. But she didn't do that.

As far as I can remember, the only two people who were ever able to manage friendship and the game were Kwame and Troy. They liked and respected each other, but they never lost sight of the fact that they were still competitors.

It seems that every other time people have a friendship on the show, they let it interfere with business decisions. If you truly are friends and one of you is PM and the other messed up, the PM shouldn't hesitate to take his ir her friend into the boardroom. And the friend should be able to understand and respect the PM's decision, and feel free to do the same if and when the situation is reversed.

And Rebecca's comments about how necessary it is for Toral to stay in the game, because no other woman would be worthy of winning, were stupid. She must have been so caught up in the moment that she failed to recognize that her remarks were also a slam against herself. IMO, all that talk of integrity was a smokescreen. I don't want to anyone to turn on a friend and throw them under a train to save themselves. But it is just as lacking in integrity if a person protects a friend from the boardroom out of emotional attachment, which is what I think Rebecca did. Real integrity involves being fair.

HobokenMartha

Oct 7, 2005 @ 8:08 am

Re Randal: I was amused because he had a lot of experience with setting up technology demos as a student in the MIT Media Lab. In fact, the research group he was part of deals with bringing useful technology both to seniors and to children. So the sense of how to set up a display and how to pick technology which would interest the seniors was something he'd done over and over again in school. A perfect week for him to be Project Manager. That said, it would have been humiliating for him to lose, and the women did manage to get almost the same score with their pushups and whatnot. Moreover, if he hadn't been PM and the men's team had lost, he would have had a hard time explaining why he hadn't stepped up to be PM on this task.[/quote]

Yep. That's what I thought. I've spent a ton of time in the same field. Plus, his career has been all about wiring up the underserved. Finally: the nursing home was in NJ, and that's Randal's home turf (works in Newark, went to school in New Brunswick). He probably had the banners done in the first half hour of the task. And as soon as I heard the "picture of my grandmother on the cell phone" story, I knew who the winner was.

Toral, here's the deal: you have to WORK with these bimbos. They are your TEAM. Whatever you actually think about them, keep it to yourself.

Okay, my own inflammatory theory: Rebecca's got a straight-girl crush on Toral.

Rosalyn578

Oct 7, 2005 @ 8:11 am

I’m a bit confused by the comments that Toral wasn’t responsible for the loss. I thought the point of the expo was to teach seniors new technology. Toral couldn’t do that because she didn’t bother to take the time beforehand to learn the technology because it was beneath her. She was most likely the one who earned the team the “trained technicians would have been nice” comment that they received. I don’t remember the average rating but it seemed to me that they didn’t lose by too much. Maybe she could have put them over if she’d made some sort of effort. Jennifer W did do a lousy job but at least she tried.

Also, except for the Jennifers, I thought all of the women could have stood to be a little more personable. They all looked pinched and unpleasant throughout the entire expo.

And I have mixed feelings about Marshawn as well. Yes she was right in that Toral apparently flubbed her presentation. But the scene shown with Marshawn watching had her two feet from Toral and I didn't see Marshawn doing anything.[/quote]

It looked to me as if she were working with some other people and stopped and looked over at Toral to see what she was doing. But even so, maybe Marshawn didn’t know how to operated the TV either, which is fine because it wasn’t the job she was assigned. It was Toral’s job. The one thing she was assigned to do.

Toral might have been condescending about the other women on her team, but she was the one who gave up what little free time she had to help out one of them who really needed that help. [/quote]
But Rebecca didn’t really need that help. I seriously doubt that the show’s producers left Rebecca to fend for herself. It was nice what Toral did but it hardly qualifies as saintly or necessary.

Baby Fish Mouth

Oct 7, 2005 @ 8:11 am

I don't think Trump was buying Rebecca's bull about integrity, but he did admire her moxie. Come on. That was a ballsy move, and the fact that she was a woman pulling this shit probably made it all the more appealing to Trump. [/quote]
I had the same feeling. Rebecca looks like Melania, IMO, and I think Trump found her very attractive and gutsy. I don't think she could have gotten away with it if she was a man.

In the end, though, the right person was fired.

jonathanacohen

Oct 7, 2005 @ 8:12 am

I'm not even sure if I'm speaking in Toral's defense, because Rebecca was the one who set the agenda for the various stations (or am I wrong?).

She was trying to show a senior how to *set the advanced features on the HDTV*!! WTF? The whole point is to show the seniors how to watch TV, not set the clock or aspect ratio.

Other booths:

Show seniors how to use the Internet. Not how to set up a cable modem.

Show seniors how to take digital photographs and print them. Not how to set up four-colour separations for pre-press.

Show seniors how TiVo can pause live TV. Where Markus started running into trouble was trying to show "how to start recording earlier", which I think was a reference to using the TiVo padding function.

Toral was evidently demonstrating material that was too complex for an introductory Tethno Expo. Whoever came up with THAT should be fired.

Quiddler

Oct 7, 2005 @ 8:12 am

Last week, we had exploiting dead grandmom, this week-exploiting children with terminal illnesses--I guess next weeks task will involve teaming up with Angelina Jolie to sell third-world children to rich Americans.[/quote]
Would the winner be calculated on gross sales or net profits? <snerk>

luvrhino

Oct 7, 2005 @ 8:16 am

polka_dots wrote:

I don't know if anyone else caught this, but at the very beginning of the ep, Mark gave an interview that was basically recapping the situation. He said, and I quote, "Chris and Markus is in the boardroom." Did Mark just like, skip all of his third grade grammar lessons or something?[/quote]
I noticed that, but my closed captioning claimed Mark used "Chris and Markus are..." I Zaprudered the damn thing and couldn't tell for certain. I decided that, despite having lived in Houston for the past 13+ years, I simply can't understand hillbilly and gave Mark and the captioners the benefit of the doubt. Regardless, Mark is still an ass.

My entry for the Rebecca look-alike contest is that she's a prettier Teresa Strasser.

netful

Oct 7, 2005 @ 8:21 am

And if TIVO is so difficult to operate, couldn’t they have gone with NOT bringing in TIVO?[/quote]
Toral wasn't demonstrating Tivo, it was HDTV, but I agree that they shouldn't be teaching something that they don't know how to use themselves. It's so hard to tell with editing, but you have to wonder how much they discussed their knowledge of the products. It's possible that Rebecca assigned the products without prior knowledge of the women't skill level with the product.

Although Randal did the exact same thing. He said that the last thing he did with his grandmother was take a picture of her on his cell phone (or something) and that this, somehow, would give them some sort of edge[/quote]The difference being that Randall wasn't crowing. He wasn't using that "OMG, I'm so winning this one" tone. He was saying that since he had recently taken a pic of his grandmother with his cell phone, and, I'm assuming here, explaining to her how it worked, etc. that it was an omen, of sorts, that he be the PM for this particular task. He also felt that his grandmother was with him and rooting for him and that that gave him an edge. He was speaking for himself as the PM, not the team. Many people derive strength from the feeling that the spirit of a loved one is with them.

Incidentally, has 'thrown under a bus' replaced 'thrown to the wolves' in regular English usage or just amongst the Apprenti? Stunned expression.[/quote]
I've always thought it was a rather common expression.

I also wonder who chose all that stuff. Don't you need a tv to use an X-Box? Could the patients hook up to the hospital equipment? [/quote]
As a semi-regular hospital patient, I can say that of the four hospitals where I've been a patient, all of them had individual TVs for the patients. A couple of them even had VCRs and video games for use by the patients.

Raguel

Oct 7, 2005 @ 8:26 am

Toral is such a bitch!

Anyone doubt that Toral would throw Rebecca under the train wheels without a second's hesitation, if the occasion should arise? Friendship and loyalty my ass. These are not your friends, reality show folks! They are obstacles in the path of winning.

All the other women wanted Toral fired. Rebecca, even just for strategic reasons, should have taken her snooty ass with her into the boardroom. And now there is a huge schism among the women's team, one which will lead them to the boardroom again next week.

comfortablynumb

Oct 7, 2005 @ 8:31 am

"Hey, Little Johnny, here's how the X-Box works...first you plug it in somewhere [yanks out the kid's life support plug to make room] and then you get all these cool options [as Little Johnny gasps for air in the background]..."
[/quote]

BWAH! Very reminiscent of "Airplane."

Hamhock96

Oct 7, 2005 @ 8:32 am

I agree that Rebecca should have been grilled more about her oversight of the task. I was thinking that, as tasks go, this one was really easy. When you think about that motel task from last season, for example -- there have been other tasks with lots more actual physical work to do. This task, once planned out, should have been a no-brainer to set up and prep for. Jennifer W. should have had the use of all the women for set-up -- learning their demos could hardly have taken more than an hour or two. How hard would it have been to go to a deli and buy some platters rather than have a sorry grocery store cake? Rebecca should have been given a scheme for the layout and the signage and the catering that she approved in advance and checked on the execution of before and during the event. It makes no sense that she was unaware of the poor spelling on the cake. As someone has already remarked, why was no effort made to change that spelling? These women really seem incompetent to me.

The women from season 1 kicked the men's butts until the teams were mixed up.
What's happened since?

Ms.J

Oct 7, 2005 @ 8:39 am

BigWheels1971 said:

I write this as a person who uses a wheelchair: I personally don't think a broken ankle is serious enough to warrent people wondering if Rebecca was going to quit. That really surprised me. This isn't The Amazing Race, where the challenges are mostly physical. At the same time, Rebecca bugged me with her, "I soldiered on despite the ankle", spiel. I wanted to say, "It's a broken leg, not pneumonia." [/quote]

Word. As a disabled young woman myself.. I was surprised she'd be "allowed" to quit. This type of perception is why it's hard for sucessful disabled people to find work... other non-disabled people thinking that we'll be using our handicap as a crutch to slack off. Certainly it's true of some, however, not all. Plenty of people work on broken legs EVERY. DAY. I believe that stepping up to be a PM right after the injury was a strategic move, as it allowed her to fall back on her injury if she lost. IMO, it comes off looking weak, but my perception is different.

The situation with the wheelchair didn't bother me, it's possible that she was in a lot of pain and was told not to walk on the ankle all day long. I, too, thought of Ereka (season 1) who let Katrina go back up to the suite and was lambasted for it, however, in that case Katrina was directly responsible for the team loss, one could argue that event planning is the major factor here, and not the one person who couldn't work the television set.

netful

Oct 7, 2005 @ 8:38 am

Anyone doubt that Toral would throw Rebecca under the train wheels without a second's hesitation[/quote]
She would also make sure that Rebecca's blindfold was neatly tied, and color coordinated before she sent her to the blond firing squad.

Pundit

Oct 7, 2005 @ 8:38 am

I didn't buy Rebecca's "integrity" argument in the board room. Bullshit. She just wanted to keep Toral in the game because they became friends. Toral performed poorly in the task and there was NO good reason for not taking her into the boardroom. And, working with a broken ankle is not "flexibility." As Trump said, she is incredibly inflexible. Why is working with a broken ankle such a big deal? There are many disabled people in the workplace.

When I delegate tasks, I still follow up to make sure they are done properly. Where was the oversight for the room decor? Why didn't she meet with Jennifer ahead of time to find out what was planned, and then make (require) suggestions for improvement? She is equally to blame.

Another reason to blame Rebecca for their failure is that overall the focus of the expo was off. It should have been just a demo of the wonders of technology, blah, blah. Not how to "do" everything. I have done something similar for non-technology seniors in the past. Just sit them at a computer, find them a website that interests them, and they are thrilled. Just like we all were when we first started discovering what was at our fingertips. Markus had the right idea when he was explaining how TIVO could change the way you watch TV. Don't get into the storage features, the recording features, etc. - just show how you can pause and go to the bathroom and a newbie gets the concept instantly. The men were also smart to include a digital photo booth. They also made sure that the people demonstrating the equipment knew how to work it. Gee, what a basic concept. I am surprised that their score wasn't higher.

Toral will be out the door soon, hopefully. What an arrogant snob. She gets no points from me for accompanying Rebecca to the hospital. They formed a friendship and so she went with her. Nice of her but not a big deal. What a jerk to try to demonstrate equipment with which she was unfamiliar. Then on top of that to not ask for assistance from a fellow team member when she tanked.

Jennifer was a disaster. She HAD to go. I could not believe it when I saw the misspelling on the cake that she didn't even catch herself. The room set-up was beyond pathetic.

They gave Markus and the guys a nice edit this week. He has good people skills.

The scenes at the hospital were touching.

dia99

Oct 7, 2005 @ 8:42 am

I figured since I took the time to type this, I may as well post it :) Sorry if anything is a repeat to someone else's observations (sure it won't be the first time)..

I really liked this episode!

I'm glad the men won. Based on the editing, you couldn't really tell if Randal was majorly responsible for the team's win, but I assumed that he was because of his MIT background and the team's unanimous decision for exemption. I figure silly little Chris wouldn't have just given it to him if he didn't deserve it.

I wish Donald had fired Rebecca.

1. She was not a good manager. She was good at delegating, very good, I think. She was good at organization, too. But she was rude and I would not have wanted to work for or with her because she was too controlling before the delegations and then too hands-off after (it seems). She also insulted her entire team in front of DT by basically saying that she wanted a woman to win and if he fired Toral she thought the chances of that happening were nil. :shock: I'm sure they'll be raring to work with her after this!

2. Jenn W. did a horrible job as event planner (setting up cookies and punch at open houses should not qualify her as an event planner anyway :roll: ). However, she went over her design concept beforehand and Rebecca approved it. Toral was horrible at working the HDTV. However, Rebecca should have had each clinic/session leader do a run-through before the real deal and she would have caught the problems (and Toral would have caught her own ineptitude, too). As PM, Rebecca was ultimately responsible, and could have easily made some decisions which would have lessened or eliminated both of these problems.

3. Rebecca used her integrity as the reason she did not bring Toral into the boardroom. She didn't think that Toral was responsible for the loss. I think it shows less integrity that she brought someone in who was even less responsible to save Toral (Jenn M.). Jenn M. actually helped them win, even if her help had more to do with the icky old man factor than technology (unless she's had some plastic surgery and they were viewing advances in that field). The task, however, was to help the people understand how to use the technology, and Marshawn and Jenn W. pointed out that Toral failed to properly demonstrate the HDTV 8 times. That's 8 different presentations. I would think that had WAY more to do with low ratings than what kind of food you had at the party. So, I think it lacked integrity to bring someone who actually contributed to the "comfortability" factor versus someone who took away from the "usefulness" factor.

However, Jenn W. was just as annoying with her whining as Toral and Rebecca with their condescension, and in the end I do think that both Rebecca and Toral are more qualified and more competent than Jenn W. So, since DT is always inconsistent with his firings anyway, he made the right decision if he was basing it off of overall performance (all tasks so far) and wrong if just based on this task.

nubbs

Oct 7, 2005 @ 8:43 am

I wonder if the scoring for this task took into account the overall attendance. Being kind of a stats weanie, I always mistrust averages. The women were what, 0.3 of a point behind the men. Not that large a difference considering how much poorer the women's event seemed to be. However, if they had really low attendance and got a few high scores (i.e., Miss Viagra's advocates) that could really have boosted their average. My guess is the men got decent scores from a much larger group of people. A weighted average would have been a lot more meaningful. And then you have to look at skewness and kurtosis...(just kidding! I don't understand it either).

Culturemaven

Oct 7, 2005 @ 8:45 am

Was anyone else creeped out by Markus letching all over Toral when they were fixing dinner? I was like, ew. Just me? Okay, then...

Also, I think Kristi borrowed Alla's pink...fur...thing...for her interview where she was sitting down.

Word to everyone who notices how Kristi is always in there stirring the pot against whoever the PM is. SHUT UP Kristi. You sucked as PM, so you can't say a damn word. I hate people who criticize, but when they're up doing the leading, they can't lead for shit. I hope she starts to get called on it.

And did no one notice how Rebecca treated them like kindergartners? "We're going to go around the table and everyone is going to give their idea, and we're not going to talk until everyone has spoken." The hell?

Though I agree that Jennifer W. did a terrible job with planning the event. I especially loved the shot of the "Station #1" sign. They couldn't even be bothered to make signs for each area. Even though she did get sugar free cookies for the diabetics, and a misspelled cake from the grocery store (what was up with that cake? My nine year old niece would have done a better job).

I think Josh is a jackass, I do. I just don't feel the love. I guess Randal did a good job with the expo. Since we only saw the men for about five seconds, I couldn't really form an impression of him. Though I did adore Clay digging a great big giant hole for himself with George. Man, I see where he was coming from, but you just...don't do things like that.

Thought the men's expo looked a lot more fun. It was really high energy, they were all into it, they were really motivated to win. The women? Hmmm...maybe because Kristi wasn't "jazzed" everyone was down on the task? Like they were all sitting around going, "Old people? I don't want to deal with old people."

ETA to say that I think Toral is a bitch, and she was certainly edited to look incomptent with the TV, but not sure if she's the reason they lost the task. I hope Rebecca thowing herself on her sword (figuratively) isn't something she regrets. Plus, Toral got really defensive really fast, so I can only think there's more to this than meets the eye.

HobokenMartha

Oct 7, 2005 @ 8:54 am

While we're discussing stereotypes and ability, let's just explore that old chestnut "old people don't use new technology." I sometimes think Burnett/TrumpWorld is sort of stuck in Austin Powers' original time period. My 82-year-old father-in-law, who drove trucks for the Russian army in WWII, e-mails like a champ. My mom is 74, and a devoted MacHead. I would have loved to have seen someone like my mother snatch the remote out of Toral's Wharton-educated hand and teach her some senior slapdown techno.

I predict, based on that wrenching little vignette with Markus and the little girl in the hospital, that he will be around for a while.

auntiemame

Oct 7, 2005 @ 9:06 am

Toral was evidently demonstrating material that was too complex for an introductory Tethno Expo. Whoever came up with THAT should be fired.[/quote]

ITA. I agree that Toral was bitchily unfortunate in her choice of words, but I think she was essentially right. Kristi, Felisha and the two Jens are nowhere near the level of competence required to work for Trump, or basically any self-respecting company in a competitive market like New York. IMO they're completely pathetic, and the mistake in her phrasing was saying they could be good admins, because there are some fucking amazing executive admins in this town and I don't think these idiots could handle it at all. I would think in this case the blame for Toral's fuck-up is really Rebecca's fault for not training her people correctly. Like, not figuring out who's good at what and allocating your resources badly is a terrible job on the part of the PM.

Oh, and Toral's job has nothing to do with mergers. One of her Web bios says she's in equity capital markets, which means helping companies sell stock to the public. I asked around and found out that if she's lucky they may take her along on meetings with CEOs, but at her level of experience her primary role would be to crunch numbers and keep her mouth shut. Which is to say: with all of her attitude, Toral is actually trading on impressing people with what she could be, not what she is. Anyone who knows more about this stuff, please pitch in.

Anyway, I don't think Toral will be chosen because, as we learned over the past three seasons, Trump doesn't like the way egos look on anyone except himself. Her brashness is a death wish -- I think that, more than anything, is why Trump wanted to fire her. I still subscribe to the "Trump is a pathetic sexist" newsletter and he still sees most women as decorative objects and is unable to respect them as equals. He listens to Caroline, sure, but if anybody remembers the icky-squicky "she's my Princess Diana" comment from a few seasons back you may see my point.

TheLady2

Oct 7, 2005 @ 9:07 am

Toral's "Press okay..uh, press okay. Press okay?", moronic fool.

Runaway bride Jen W, "and my grandma likes cake", and your point is?

Sandra Bullock, Rebecca should have been fired for be in charge of the above team members and their awful presentations.

As for Jen M, why was she brought into the boardroom anyway? No reason at all.

Trump let Rebecca steamroll him into her staying. Perhaps he realized that when they left the boardroom after the firing.

robinette

Oct 7, 2005 @ 9:13 am

Why were all of Jen M.'s interviews in pageant pose? [/quote]

Hee. Who the heck stands or sits like that? I thought the same thing the other night watching SevHev. Ruthie was in the car and had this weird stiff upper body position doing the turn head only while talking to her dad.

Pundit

Oct 7, 2005 @ 9:16 am

And did no one notice how Rebecca treated them like kindergartners? "We're going to go around the table and everyone is going to give their idea, and we're not going to talk until everyone has spoken." The hell?[/quote]
I didn't have a problem with that. Too often these teams all start shouting at once; setting some ground rules for interaction is just basic team management. I know that one of the teammates later faulted Rebecca for her manner, but I thought that just sounded like sour (bitchy) grapes. At that point in the task, Rebecca had my respect. (But she lost it, irretrievably, later!)

Yes, Martha, many elderly people use technology. From my own observation (my own family plus have worked with groups), I think it's mainly email. Beyond that, the need to learn a whole new set of instructions, etc., often outweights the tangible benefits. Which is perfectly understandable.

tres francaise

Oct 7, 2005 @ 9:27 am

Could this have been the second consecutive week in which the PTB guessed wrong on the winners? Look at the rewards. Last week skating with hockey players, this week gifts to sick kids in a hospital....

ETA: there's a difference between tasks & rewards.

heebiejeebie

Oct 7, 2005 @ 9:27 am

Though I did adore Clay digging a great big giant hole for himself with George. Man, I see where he was coming from, but you just...don't do things like that.[/quote]

Clay did a terrible job of verbalizing, but I think some of George's response was just bluster on the part of his age. While I appreciate and follow the philosophy about it being rude to discuss one's age, I also think the real issuse George had was that Clay asked him for input. I think George was looking at Clay with a WTF look because he was surprised that Clay didn't seem to get just what role George plays inthe whole thing. Maybe I am projecting too much, but I found George's comment and look to indicate on a simplistic level, it was like Clay was asking George to cheat. You don't ask a judge how to make the best entry.

And I might be the lone wolf here, but I think Rebecca might have kept Toral out of the boardroom simply because she was looking after her own interests. With Toral gone, I think Rebecca knew she would be the next in the crosshairs. Regardless of whose personality traits were at fault, if Toral went, the clique would have taken out the two women not a member. I think Rebecca knew she would be third. Especially as I thought it telling that Toral went with Rebecca. The rest could not have cared less about her beyond surface courtesy. Not that they have to, but I thought it odd a few days after the whole "Melissa is th only one that does not fit", we did not see more female camaderie, even if it was just for the cameras. At least Toral was self-aware enough that she knew it cost her nothing and scored brownie points. Possibly with Rebecca. Definitely for the camera (until she opened her mouth and took it all away). And maybe even with Trump if he heard she did her good samaritan act. I'm not sure how much of the BFF act either Rebecca and Toral are buying. Rebecca took a gamble and it paid off. She still has an ally and she also managed to score a few points against the other women who might think twice about going up against her in the boardroom knowing she bluffed Trump and succeeded.

RhondaGC

Oct 7, 2005 @ 9:28 am

she's hot snot on a silver platter and those cold booger bitches on their crappy paper plates can kiss her ass![/quote]
Thank you, ashforth! That made me laugh in a very unseemly manner, but boy did it feel good!

But she was abrasive. Not only Rebecca talked at them, she talked down at them.[/quote]
Yeah, I agree she probably didn't handle that well, but I think I understand what she was trying to do. We've all seen these "brainstroming" sessions get way out of hand and turn into "screeching" sessions where nothing substantive is accomplished for hours on end. I *think* that's what Rebecca was trying to avoid by ruling with an iron fist. However, she probably went overboard. It is a tricky thing, I think, on a show like this because these people are generally not your average group of business people. They're high strung and each feels like he/she has to scream his/her ideas as loudly as possible to get attention. And they all have raging egos, or they wouldn't be on TV in the first place. Trying to control that kind of group would be a very difficult prospect and it seems very few PM's on this show manage to do it well.

frazierpool

Oct 7, 2005 @ 9:29 am

I think she was right in not taking Toral to the boardroom. Remember the sorority clique that ganged up on Stacy last season? It would be the same thing all over. At least with Toral she has some kind of ally.

Where she went wrong is her defensiveness, and her defense of Toral. She looked crazy. Why couldn't she just say something along the lines of "Mr Trump, this isn't a sorority. We are not electing a homecoming queen. I'm not keeping people based on how well they get along in a sorority house. I'm keeping people on their ability to run a business and their competence." Or something.

It drove me crazy last year season, and its driving me crazy again.

blackwing

Oct 7, 2005 @ 9:30 am

I do think that Jennifer W deserved to be faulted by the poor setup and display. But still, do seniors really care about that? The women got a 7.9, I think, while the men had like an 8.2. The comments aired specifically stated that the women's technicians were not knowledgeable and that was disappointing.

If Toral hadn't screwed up the simple task of working a TV, perhaps they would have gotten a few extra tenths of a point. It's true that maybe the decor would have gotten them extra points. But I also think that the general attractiveness of the women (as commented by one guy) probably got them extra points as well, so I think it's a wash.

I think Jennifer W's screwup was at least as costly as Toral's screwup. Because of that, I think Trump should have said, "Rebecca, the two people that made the biggest errors were Je[quote]nnifer and Toral. Jennifer is here and recognizes her mistake. You should have brought Toral in here. I would have fired her. Because you are determined to protect her, I'm going to do the next best thing. I'll fire you in place of her."

[quote]You don't fire a Wharton graduate because she can't get the hang of programming a television.[/quote]

I think Toral only has an undergrad degree from Wharton, not an MBA. Is a Wharton undergrad degree really such a door opener? I have a Wharton undergrad degree, and in my work experience I've never felt like I've gotten any "bonus points" for having one. I doubt 99% of the people I work with even know I went there. I just don't think it would fly to constantly go around and advertise Whartonness. People at work would probably think I'm a snob.

sorry, I'm not sure why the quote tag isn't working, I guess I should be fired, despite having gone to Wharton

dia99

Oct 7, 2005 @ 9:42 am

heebiejeebie,

I think that's a plausible idea about Rebecca's motives. It gives me a little more respect for her intellect, and even less for her integrity.

NotTheBox

Oct 7, 2005 @ 9:43 am

And did no one notice how Rebecca treated them like kindergartners? "We're going to go around the table and everyone is going to give their idea, and we're not going to talk until everyone has spoken." The hell?[/quote]

I didn't see that as treating them like kindergartners. I see that a lot of people were put off by her style in the meetings, but I just though she was decisive and wanted to make sure they didn't waste time. How many meetings have we seen dissolved into yak fests where everybody is babbling and nothing is getting accomplished? I think it's a good idea to give everybody an opportunity to present their ideas, then after everyone hears ALL of them, they can discuss them. IMO, it's a more efficient method than everybody getting hung up on minutae on each point.

I think a lot of people are used to women ending sentences with a tag- "let's leave now, ok?" "This is a great idea, isn't it?" I've been taught that that's something to watch out for and avoid when you are in a position where you need people to respect your decisions as final. I find it refreshing when women don't end each sentence with a little "softener" to make themselves seem less aggressive. To me it's more "kindergarten-y to be going, "let's all say what we think, ok?" "It's time to leave now, allright?" I wonder if some of the perceptions of Rebecca being domineering stems from being accustomed to women speaking that way.

shakylegs

Oct 7, 2005 @ 9:47 am

Am I the only one who got the “Married With Children” vibe from Jennifer W when she fell back on the bed? I swear, her hand went straight down the front of her pants.
And then, the chest thrown outward when she was taking off her jacket was a bit, um, gratuitous. So was bringing in Miss Whatever-Pageant during the meeting.
And speaking of pageants, really not caring for the chick-terviews.

Pundit

Oct 7, 2005 @ 9:48 am

Where she went wrong is her defensiveness, and her defense of Toral. She looked crazy. Why couldn't she just say something along the lines of "Mr Trump, this isn't a sorority. We are not electing a homecoming queen. I'm not keeping people based on how well they get along in a sorority house. I'm keeping people on their ability to run a business and their competence." Or something. [/quote]
I would agree with you except that Toral was a disaster in the task. So that argument would not fly. And I do equate her inability to perform well at the Tethno Expo with overall ability. Because if she is so smart, then she should have been smart enough to realize she was in over her head with the TV remote and gotten assistance or changed her presentation. There's nothing wrong with being baffled by new technology, but her inability to remedy the problem was a huge gaffe.

coaster

Oct 7, 2005 @ 9:51 am

Moron women, if you see a misspelling on the cake, take a knife and FIX IT[/quote]
Seriously... a party planner has never had to deal with a misspelled cake before? You don't even have to take it back! It's not even as hard as using white-out on a sweatshirt.

fposte

Oct 7, 2005 @ 9:54 am

I think you fire a Wharton graduate anytime the Wharton graduate isn't up to the task. It wasn't unreasonable to assume that Toral could manage to operate a television, and the fact that she failed is task-relevant.

Toral's mistake was in believing that she would be working with other women like herself and not whining and catty women [/quote]

Moving swiftly past the "Has she seen the show?" joke, I note that Carolyn and Trump found her just as appalling. They're not whiny and catty women.

I think it ultimately doesn't matter why Toral is blindly arrogant or why Rebecca is bull-headed or why Jen W. is whiny--they all have cultural and personal reasons--but how detrimental those characteristics are to their ability to do their job. Rebecca's style had some advantages--I think clear order at the discussion was a welcome change from the pseudoegalitarian clusterfucks that previous season's meetings have sometimes proved--and it also had some disadvantages. I don't honestly see any advantage in Toral's making it clear to the rest of the team that she thinks they're beneath her, and there's going to be a lot of disadvantage, especially now that she's demonstrated that some kinds of success are apparently beneath her as well.

I don't have any particular objection to the firing of Jen W. instead; as in most cases, there's no single failure that was the make-or-break point, and this was a pretty egregious piece of incompetence on her part. And I adored the irony of the blondies bitching that the leader hasn't gotten them jazzed up, because that's what a leader is supposed to do. Aren't you ladies considering yourselves leaders? Can't you even get yourselves jazzed up?

Right now I like Marshawn the best, because she's solid, thoughtful, and articulate as well as apparently largely free of the bathroom-stall groupiness. So next week she'll doubtless do something horrifying.

My vote on the Rebecca resemblance is, of all people, Kathie Lee Gifford.

bonster

Oct 7, 2005 @ 9:56 am

I don't see Rebecca's resemblance to Sandra Bullock, I think she looks like Victoria Beckham.

Regarding why they lost the task, I agree with those of you that think it may have been because of Toral instead of Jennifer W. Even though Jen W did a lousy job with the decorating and refreshments and overall presentation, we don't know if those elements were factors of the scoring. We (and Carolyn) may see her ineptitude quite clearly, but the attendees were the ones filling out the scorecards, and those who experienced frustration at Toral's station may have given the lower scores that brought down their average.

However, I think that sometimes the person who deserves to be fired and the person who causes the team to lose the task of the week are two separate things. That's why I think that even if Toral was the reason for the loss, Jen W was the correct one to fire this week. She just didn't seem to have the professionalism and attention to detail that would be required in a high-level executive job. I thought her response to Carolyn's pointing out the typo in the cake was very dismissive, I believe she just said "oh well" (to Carolyn). I guess that's better than trying to make excuses but she should have at least acknowledged to Carolyn that it was a mistake that mattered and expressed sufficient embarrassment for making it. I also thought she made a pretty stupid comment after having been assigned the task of planning the event. I believe she was saying that she was a good choice because she "likes entertaining and likes old people." Unbelievable.

As for Toral, I don't think she did herself any favours with her "I'm smarter than everyone else here" routine, so her days are probably numbered.

proudtvaddict

Oct 7, 2005 @ 9:57 am

Moron women, if you see a misspelling on the cake, take a knife and FIX IT

Seriously... a party planner has never had to deal with a misspelled cake before? You don't even have to take it back! It's not even as hard as using white-out on a sweatshirt.[/quote]

I think what killed Jennifer W. on that was her 'Shit happens' attitude when Carolyn pointed it out to her.

If Toral hadn't screwed up the simple task of working a TV, perhaps they would have gotten a few extra tenths of a point.[/quote]

Particularly since she evinced no charm at all in the clip we saw. When things aren't going well, a little bit of self-deprecating humor will go a long way in smoothing things over.

LadyKenobi

Oct 7, 2005 @ 9:59 am

I was on the FLOOR over George's preoccupation with the eats: "The men had good food! They had COOKIES! And cheese!"

I love George.

CheekyCricket

Oct 7, 2005 @ 9:59 am

And did no one notice how Rebecca treated them like kindergartners? "We're going to go around the table and everyone is going to give their idea, and we're not going to talk until everyone has spoken." The hell?[/quote]
I noticed it. It seems that her spirited self-defense in the boardroom has overshadowed the fact that she really wasn't much of a leader or manager. There was no apparent concept or plan behind the Capital Edge presentation, and that's the PM's responsibility, in my book. She also didn't seem to know how to use the assets of the team members, unlike Randal, who seemed to find a suitable job for everyone on his team--even Markus, who had been a loose cannon in previous tasks.

The Excel team came across as motivated, helpful and enthusiastic, unlike the Capital Edge team, where everyone seemed to be on their own, and left to their own devices. In fact, I'm hard pressed to figure out what, exactly, Rebecca was doing, since she delegated the main duties to Jennifer W. and then didn't seem to be aware that Jenn W. was floundering. Or that the room was disorganized, bland, and unappealing. Or that Toral's station kept going down. So, what was Rebecca doing, as the PM?

Oh, Toral. Toral, Toral, Toral. You condescending self-important bitch. So which of these women has zero work experience - the two sales executives or the two independent business owners? Golly, I enjoyed watching her shoot her mouth off in the boardroom. That was fun![/quote]

Especially since, to date, she really hasn't made an outstanding contribution, or even a noticeable one, to any of the tasks. And, Rebecca clearly shares that attitude towards her teammates, although she's less blunt in expressing it. I don't blame the rest of the team for feeling alienated bythe pair. But, then again, I guess I'm too inferior to understand the enormous burden that Rebecca and Toral must endure, being that they are SO SUPERIOR, and probably, I'm only intelligent enough to be one of their secretaries or administrative assistants . . .

BassetHound

Oct 7, 2005 @ 9:59 am

Oh, Toral. Toral, Toral, Toral. You condescending self-important bitch. So which of these women has zero work experience - the two sales executives or the two independent business owners? [/quote]In defense of Toral, I question the work experience of at least half of these people. You can't take the web bios at face value. Titles mean nothing. "Sales Executive" can be a big deal at Coca-Cola but mean nothing more than "sales person" at a different company. Also, "managing a multi-million dollar portfolio" doesn't mean that much, either. Twom million is "multi-million" and what does "managing" that mean? And, in certain areas, "multi-million dollar accounts" is small, unless your talking over $100,000,000.

It's like Erin from last season. She was a "corporate litigator" who worked for a "big firm" on "multi-million dollar transactions." Wrong. She worked for Morgan Lewis in Philadelphia (a big firm) but as per diem counsel, which is the dregs of lawyering. She may have been tagentially involved in organizing a file for a million dollar deal but she didn't sniff on little bit of responsibility.

Likewise, what does it mean to be an "independent busisness owner"? You hire a lawyer and incorporate and sell your product. Maybe you make money, maybe you don't. Bill Rancic sold cigars online and "managed a multi-million dollar company." Millions in gross sales maybe. He sold the company (cigars around the world.com I think) for about $300,000, the profits of which he split with one-half a dozen investors or more.

Toral IS a smart businesswoman with a truly impressive academic background, who worked for a major Investment Banking firm on Wall Street. They don't hire dummies or keep dummies around. She worked for years there, and I'm sure she had some responsibilities, becuase you don't work on an IPO as an investment banker and not get a piece of the pie, and these firms don't give you a piece of the pie unless you bring something to the table.

That being said, Toral also seems to be a raging bitch who can't get along with others and Trump ain't hiring her. I can't say I blame him, either, but she is far more experienced in business than 90% of the candidates.

Scrizzy

Oct 7, 2005 @ 10:09 am

I don't get the hate for Toral. As far as I can tell her major sin was not being an HDTV expert. If that's what Trump is looking for then he should be interviewing Best Buy employees. Toral also has a point about qualifications, because let's be honest, if this isn't a reality show she is probably the only woman there who has a shot at landing a high-level management position.

Jen W. on the other hand is an event-planner who fucked up the event planning. If you can't even do your own job well how are you going to be any help to his business.

The only problem I had with anything was Rebecca bringing the other Jen in. Her 'exercising' for the men was the only thing that raised their grade over a 5.

kacked

Oct 7, 2005 @ 10:11 am

Does anyone remember an old FedEx commercial where a woman is trying to show a new, young employee how to use the company's shipping software and he tells her that he has an MBA. Then she tells him that she'll go extra slow for him.

Smart is smart and dumb is dumb. A Wharton degree doesn't impress me half as much as simple competence.

George really liked those cookies.

sesstr

Oct 7, 2005 @ 10:17 am

I am sick and tired of the crap the Apprentice women pull on minorities on their team. Stacie J in season 2 and now Toral in season 4. [/quote]

I really don't agree that the treatment Toral got from the other women in the boardroom had anything to do with her race. She is extremely condescending - remember she interviewed that she would hire some of these women "as secretaries"? So I think it's completely natural and fair that they hate her guts.

Obleek

Oct 7, 2005 @ 10:17 am

I can't decide who to hate--Toral or the blondes.

I say push the whole damn lot of them off the balcony.[/quote][/quote]

...and the subversive asses they rode in on.

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