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TWoP Forums > Current TWoP Shows > Battlestar Galactica > Battlestar Galactica General Gabbery
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Jacob
Lots of -- legitimate -- confusion as to the best place for this discussion, so I'm opening a thread. If it's about souls, religion, or general personhood of the Cylons, it goes here.

Consider it my ultimate act of toasterloving propaganda.


Huge thanks to Gonigal for the thread title, as well!
Archangel
Thank you Jacob! This breaks me out of my "choice paralysis situation" induced coma...and allows me to transfer this from the "Pegasus" thread...

If, as the humlons say, they transfer to another waiting body, that kind of proves that they don't have a soul in the sense that humans do. Last time I checked, I can't control what happens to my soul when I die.[/quote]
Interesting take, but I can't agree that this proves the Cylons to be soulless, or have a different type or quality of soul from that of humans. I mean, there are plenty of humans who believe that their souls are transferred to another body (reincarnation) or to a "heaven" after death, and lots of those folks believe their soul can choose its own path after the death of their physical body.

Is it a conscious effort for a "dead" Cylon to transfer, or an automated function? You'd think Pegasix would have transferred if it was possible to control the transfer...unless her treatment was part of the Cylon "and they have a plan" deal...

I'm wondering, where does one check for the ability to transfer their soul upon death? I’m not even sure how to check for the existence of a soul….maybe Baltar has a test for that too…not involving nukes…;)

Whoa, this did give me one heck of a thought though, maybe the souls of all the humans the Cylons have killed were transferred to Cylon bodies somewhere...it would explain how Baltar survived the nuke and ended up with Six sharing his head...what a plan that would be, eh?
Tulse
Transfer might not rule out Cylons having souls, but it sure should massively change their psychology relative to humans. If you knew that your consciousness could never die, and that your physical body was merely a shell that you could transfer out of when it perished, I would think your whole notion of personhood would be radically different, and the whole notion of death would take on a very different meaning.

For example, why would Gina endure her torture if she knew that, by dying, she would wake up whole in another body? Why not just provoke her attackers to kill her, or strangle herself with her restraining cable? Why wouldn't Humlons be essentially fearless in battle, since they know that they can't really be killed?

Another problem I have is I don't understand how the transferring actually works. Do souls get transmitted to "fresh" bodies (which presumably must start out soulless), or do they somehow "merge" with already soulled Humlons? If the former, how the heck does one grow "soulless" bodies, since "soul" seems equivalent to "consciousness, personality, and memory"? If the latter, does it have to be the same model, or can a Leisure Suit Larry soul get shoved in with a Six?

I find it all very confusing...
Archangel

I find it all very confusing...[/quote]
Confusing, but totally cool!

The whole transference-of-the-Cylon-consciousness-to-another-body thing might even help explain, from a moral perspective anyway, how they could decide to nuke all those humans (besides total hatred, fear and revenge, I mean...). Human souls might transfer too - naturally or maybe even artificylony. Maybe all those people's consciousnesses are stored somewhere.

Maybe this "mystery ship" Cain wants to target will shed some light on the Cylon consciousness-transference process. Or maybe it’s the Cylon God-ship.

(I still think it’s merely to carry the enormous ego of Baltar…how else could they fit a Six in his brain…not much room..;)
Curare
For me it is more about consciousnes. The personality gets placed in a new body after the death of the old body. I don't really know what the "soul" means for them. If they keep getting put in new bodies how can their souls reach God? I'm unclear as whether they share their memories with each other while still in one body or have to be uploaded to the network for all of them to know. Which raises another set of questions. If your memories get uploaded to all members of your species and they know everything you know how unique are you then? If you are not unique can your soul have a value?
Raina SaDiablo

If your memories get uploaded to all members of your species and they know everything you know how unique are you then?[/quote]
I think that memory-sharing is slightly different than consciousness transfer. Maybe it's like the difference between someone watching a video of your life and you actually dying and waking up in a new body. Someone can watch a video of your life and know enough about everything you've done for a clone to be able to impersonate you; if they watch it enough, they can even get drawn into the "story," so to speak, and empathize with you (kinda like how we empathize in the BSG-verse even though they're not even real) enough to feel a bit of what you felt (ie. Sharon). But at the end of the day, the actual consciousness itself is a separate thing.
Curare
I'm still unclear on the nature of the sharing. Memories are more than visual and your memories shape who you are. If every Cylon knew and felt what every other Cylon knew and felt where does one Cylon begin and another end? I really didn't like that CapBoomer made that comment to Adama about, "And you have to ask why." The only way she could know that was if she had access to the memories of GalBoomer while she was in the network. Do they all update at preset times? There are so many questions.

The models are all based on templates right? Six makes a crack about Sharon model being week. Six also makes a crack about Cymon right? About his sympathy for Starbuck as it wasn't the first he'd been sympatheic to a human.
Raina SaDiablo
What I was trying to suggest was that maybe they don't actually share feelings exactly, but after watching another Cylon's "life video," a Cylon can feel something for what happened from an observer's point of view. Kinda like how we watch a show or read a book, and sometimes we cry or dance for joy right along with the characters. I mean, with us it's not even real, and yet we feel something. Imagine how much more profound the feeling would be if you knew that it were actually experienced by an identical twin.
Curare
So it is somewhere between empathy and actually feeling what they go through. Sort of like the ultimate informed opinion? I like this because it doesn't dilute the seperate personalites.
Gella
I believe their memories transfer, not quite sure about souls or whatever makes them unique.
Sharon 1.0 and Sharon 2.0 were both alive and functioning at the same time. They are not the same though. One was in love with Tyrol at the same time as the other was in love with Helo. So, when Sharon 1.0 got shot, could her soul really upload to all other Sharons, including 2.0? Do we think that this is essentually the same creature? They don't even seem the same really, since even on the surface Sharon 2.0 is much stronger and tougher than the first Sharon.
Curare
I'm assuming that GalBoomer was always the one in contact with the people on Galactica and that they didn't switch periodically. For CapBoomer to know everything GalBoomer knew there needed to be memory sharing. CapBoomer has feelings for Tyrol even though I don't think she actually met him until Kobol. CapBoomer only as memories but yet she does have feelings for the crew. It is all very confusing.
Maytree

For example, why would Gina endure her torture if she knew that, by dying, she would wake up whole in another body? [/quote]

This has been mentioned a couple times in the original episode thread but I'll answer it here: upon watching all of the Season 1 episodes, there's one where Six states to Baltar unequivocally that suicide is a mortal sin. Now, of course, this is the "What the heck is she really?" Six in his head who may or may not be speaking the "Cylon Truth", but it's the only evidence we have regarding Cylon feelings about self-destruction.

I believe this was in the episode where Baltar was whining non-stop about the 50,000 samples of blood he had to process and asking if it was okay with Six's God if he just killed himself instead, but I could be remembering the exact episode wrong.

Oh, there's also that rather telling scene in "Flesh and Blood" where Starbuck is yelling at Leoben after he mentions that he "can't die" and she accuses him of having bought into some religious claptrap that someone "higher up" in the Cylons has sold him. And maybe I was imagining it, but Leoben seemed kind of doubtful himself. So this whole "we transfer when we die" might be unproven religious dogma rather than provable fact. (Although that leaves open the question of how PregBoomer shares DeadBoomer's memories of serving on Galactica. There must be some kind of information transfer going on there.)
Curare
That whole "suicide is a sin" thing never sat well with me. The first six we saw commited suicide along with her two escorts in the very first scene of the mini. If allowing yourself to be blown up isn't suicide then what it is? I think she should have said despair. To lose faith in God's promise, now that I can see being a damnable offense.
Raina SaDiablo

So it is somewhere between empathy and actually feeling what they go through. [/quote]
Yeah that's exactly what I'm trying to say. :)


The first six we saw commited suicide along with her two escorts in the very first scene of the mini.[/quote]
I think that following orders to allow yourself to be killed to complete a mission is different than losing faith and killing yourself.
Curare
But isn't there a difference between going into combat and getting killed and just waiting for the bombs to kill you? I can understand if you're on a mission and you have die for the mission to work. For example you're behind enemy lines and if you die and also take out a large number of the enemy or you allow your fellow compatriots to escape or do their part of the mission. But the Six in the mini was kissing the guy as the station was blown up. What possible reason could there have been for that?
Maytree


The first six we saw commited suicide along with her two escorts in the very first scene of the mini.[/quote]

I think that following orders to allow yourself to be killed to complete a mission is different than losing faith and killing yourself.[/quote]

This difference would explain why all the nude Boomers in Kobol's Last Gleaming didn't seem to mind getting blown to pieces by a nuke as long as NowDeadBoomer made it back to the Galactica to complete her mission. Dying when ordered to is okay; dying by choice when you haven't received any such orders (as Pegasix would have to do to get out of the torture) might not be okay. It might particularly not be okay if you haven't completed your mission, which might be true for Pegasix for all we know -- no easy out allowed for her until she finish her assignment, perhaps?

I say "might" a lot because we really don't know if/how these lines are drawn.
Curare
I fail to see how Six's death at the station serves any tacticle or strategic purpose. Blind obdience isn't free will. At least not to me.
Raina SaDiablo

I fail to see how Six's death at the station serves any tacticle or strategic purpose.[/quote]
Yeah I never figured out the purpose of that either. Maybe they wanted to experience everything in life, including death?


Blind obdience isn't free will.[/quote]
Do we know that they have free will though?
tscott1979
What I was trying to say back in the episode thread, was that if a humlon's soul/spirit/whatever transfers to another body, then how do they get to God?

Do they decide after transfer #39,485,734,728, that you know what, this time, think I wanna try heaven, so guys, turn off the soul catching machine. (Heh, we have a band here in Canada, soulDecision. Is that what humlons would call that choice? Would they put that on a living will?)

If the humlons get to choose what happens, or at the very least have some control over what happens to their "souls", that kinda rules out having a soul in the "traditional" sense. This is to say that, as I am currently alive, I have no foreknowledge of what will happen to my soul upon my death, and the only control I may have according to religion I was taught, is provided to me by the way in which I choose to live my life. (I put traditional in quotes because I don't want to start a debate about the nature of a human soul according to different Earth religions. I understand that some religions/beliefs hold that you reincarnate, but from what I understand of them, you don't really choose what form you reincarnate into.)

ETA: Jacob, sorry bout the post in the episode thread. I was debating hardcore about wether or not to post what I did. My bad.



[Not at all; remember, just because my post is under someone else's doesn't mean it refers specifically, or at all, to the post directly above -- I get in there when I can.]
Soulful Skeptic
As regards the Cy-man-hattan Transfer (tm 9/30/05 :-) ), here's my thoughts:

When (can they do it)? Every Cy-man thus far mentions that the Transfer happens when Cy-mans die, usually as smug gloating that if you kill me I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine ... er, wait, no, wrong saga. Even when talking about the Transfers of other Cy-mans, it's death-only. CapSharon tells Helo and Starbuck they need to go because dead CapSix is transmitting and will alert the Cylons when she gets up. If CapSix was innately in contact with a Collective hivemind at any other time, 1) CapSharon should have said so, and 2) there is no reasonable way for everyone there to have gotten away.

Likewise, Diana Biers, regardless of whether or not she's consciously aware that she's a Cylon, didn't convey information via a Great Link to the Collective. She (aware or not) secretly made a normal transmission to two Raiders, which relayed it in turn prior to being destroyed.

So I posit that a Cylon must normally use conventional comm technology, since data-sharing via Cy-man-hattan Transfer is a death-only option.

Why (don't they do it more)? I think this boils down to the extreme, no-room-for-doubt Cylon behavioral code (get it? behavioral code? never mind).

DivineVisionSix outright says "Suicide is a mortal sin," and is horrified by Baltar's efforts to encourage GalactiSharon to "follow her heart" to suicide. In this regard, I'd offer that it's suicide if it's not part of your mission/orders to experience death in the course of your duties (if you *choose* death, it's suicide, but if your mission is to strap on a bomb and try to take out Baltar's Cylon Detector, or "experience the Colonial Cleansing for historical recordkeeping", that's dandy).

Keeping with this, Leoban 2.0, during the running discussion with Starbuck about whether or not he was just a machine, never turned off the pain. After all, if he turns off the pain, he's not alive, he's just a machine. If they must believe they have souls and are fundamentally more than just machines, they cannot just turn the pain off, or the emotions off. It's not a large step from that to faith in a code that says "Your existence is a precious gift from God, you may not throw it away (turn it off) for your own shallow purposes."

In fundie terms, if a Cy-man can't convince itself that its death serves God's Plan, it cannot do the Cy-man-hattan Transfer. Moreover, it would make sense to design the Cy-man models this way, without conscious suicide cut-outs, so that the most a Cy-man could do is "give up and lay there" or pursue death through some conventional means, all while deeply believing that suicide is absolutely wrong. (Look how hard it was for GalactiSharon to even try to kill herself.)

Therefore, I posit that Cy-mans in the Fleet must generally let themselves be tortured, maimed, shot, abused, and degraded, as a willing-or-not sacrifice to God's will.
Curare
I never bought the pain part of that. I mean if you come across a human with the mental powers to "turn off" pain receptors are they no longer human because they have that ability? I forgot about what happend in The Farm so yeah, it must be a death only option. I'm still trying to figure out how CapBoomer knew what Adama said to GalBoomer in the morgue.
SA22C
Take a step back and consider:

What exactly is transferred when Humlons die? Even if the contents of their silica pathways are exactly copied and transmitted to a new body, or to the Cylon information repository or whatever, it's still JUST A COPY. In short when a Humlon dies, it dies. Somewhere out there in Cylonland, another Humlon copy MAY wake up with the same memories, but that does not immortality make.

I think it is more likely that the information contained in the brain of a Humlon is downloaded somehow, but there is no soul being transferred, no transfer of consiousness. Such concepts don't stand up to even the most tenuous of attacks. It's kinda like the Star Trek transporter beam. If you dissasemble someone and convert them into energy, they're dead. Whatever you assemble on the other end isn't them. It may be an EXACT copy, but the individual who asked Scotty to beam him up is dead. Conversely, any Humlon who dies stays dead, no matter how much another copy may resemble them physically or emotionally.
Curare
Their bodies die but not the underlying personality. If I wake up tomorrow in another body I'm not dead. I'm still in existance because I am aware of the existance. The bodies are just shells for the cylons. Very pretty and sensitive shells but shells none the less. In the mini Six pretty much implies this.
Tulse
SAC22, I'm not sure what your criteria for immortality are, but for me, if when my current body died I woke up in a duplicate of this body, with my current memories, personality, and all those other bits of mental gear, then that would be good enough for me. Heck, how do I know that this didn't happen last night while I was sleeping?

As long as my "psychological states" are the same for the new identical body, as long as the psychological connectedness (or what the philosopher of personal identity Derek Parfit calls "Relation R") is unbroken, then that's sufficient for me.

I'm not clear on what the degree of "Relation R" a dead Humlon has with its new body, whether they wake up just as they were but in a new place (pretty much 100% R), or whether the "receptacle" itself has some sort of consciousness/memory/personality that gets merged with the transferer (which reduces the psychological continuity). I'm not sure that's been answered yet.


It's kinda like the Star Trek transporter beam. If you dissasemble someone and convert them into energy, they're dead. Whatever you assemble on the other end isn't them. It may be an EXACT copy, but the individual who asked Scotty to beam him up is dead.[/quote]

I have friend who says he would refuse to use the Star Trek transporter for exactly that reason -- it murders people. My response is that, if we could make exact copies of people with the ease of the transporter, my guess is that worrying about the termination of a few exact copies of them would be much less of a concern, so much so that we might be willing to do that just for transportation. And as I see, the same considerations might apply when you can crank out Boomers by the gross -- surely each individual is, in a sense, less valuable, or at least, Cylons would be less worried about the death of one or two, relative to real humans. (As others have pointed out, Cylons do seem to have a prohibition against suicide, but that doesn't mean that Cylons wouldn't be far more "reckless" about their copies.)
Gella
For them to literally transfer consciousness/soul from one copy to the other would require that no more than one copy is awake at any given time. But we know that is not true, so what happens? Multiple copies are living out completely different experiences all at the same time, developing diffirent feelings, so how can they be identical? Do they periodically merge their dying personalitities with other living copies? But that would be a complete schizophrenia disaster.

I think they have some sort of a data depository, where they upload their memories upon termination and those memories somehow get accessed by other living copies (which of course begs the question of how can they be able to download memories to living copies but not to upload memories from them?). But as far as their souls/individuality, I think that is gone once each model is dead. Whether there is some sort of a Cylon heaven or not then remains about as vague and unknown as human heaven. There is no more GalBoomer. There is a Cylon who looks just like her (minus any specific scars, etc), and sounds like her, and in some instances acts like her, and has some of the same memories (although curiously not the memories of shooting Adama or anything like that), but that is not the same Sharon. And when Tyrol says "My Sharon is dead" -- I believe he is correct. She may "remember" loving him and have some affection for him, but she has not loved him herself, she has not shot Adama, she has not struggled with suicide. In other words, she is unique, and other copies having possible future access to her memories would be just a fancier version of other copies reading her very detailed memoires, but it won't make them into Sharon 2.0.
Raina SaDiablo

So I posit that a Cylon must normally use conventional comm technology, since data-sharing via Cy-man-hattan Transfer is a death-only option.[/quote]
But Sharon rememberd Tyrol even though she'd never met him, so there had to have been a data transfer between GalBoomer and Sharon at some point.
Soulful Skeptic
I figured once GalactiSharon died, there was a Transfer. Whether CapSharon looked it up on a database, got a Transfer update, or got some of a subsequent data dump, she'd have at least the raw data of everything GalactiSharon had. Also, it's possible that CapSharon is a very fresh model, recently minted, and had the most current possible memory set implanted.

The creepy thing is that you have to imagine a Cy-man body keeps recording and Transferring for a while, because there's just no other way for the knowledge of Commander Adama asking the corpse "Why?" to have gotten out.
Mighty Cuinn
Better off in the Cylon Models thread.

Moved to the Cylon Models thread.
Mighty Cuinn
Now, other ideas... Wow, even Cylon's have a Deus Ex Machina!

At some point, I think there's got to be an automatic upload/download between Humlons and the OverCylord. When the Humlon's are sleeping, perhaps? The higher brain functions are in 'sleep mode', computer wise and literally, so that would be a good time to Cymail in some new instructions. This could explain why GalactiBoomer set bombs in the water supply without being aware of it. The part of 'her' that was Boomer was snoozing, so the Cylon part could get up and run off for it's playdate with TNT.

It might also explain why GalactiBoomer kept 'transmitting' even tho she was 'dead' for all appearances. Her corpse became a direct transmitter, no having to wait til sleepy time to send packets back and forth. Then when PreggoBoomer snoozed during the super tense camping trip from Hell, she got DeadBoomer's info via Cymail when sleeping.
tscott1979
Since Six has stated that "I'll just wake up in another body somewhere else.", this indicates to me that what transfers is more than just memories/experiences. But, if we want to go that route, what makes me uniquely me? By some definitions, that would be memories/experiences.


But Sharon rememberd Tyrol even though she'd never met him, so there had to have been a data transfer between GalBoomer and Sharon at some point.[/quote]

That, or since it's never been made clear as to wether or not the humlons were built from scratch, or if they are clones from actual humans. If Sharon was a real person who spent time in the fleet, was abducted, her memories copied/downloaded into her replacement humlon, then all the Sharons would know about the chief depending on when she was taken. As she said to Helo, she remembers being in the fleet, meeting Starbuck, getting her wings, etc.


It's kinda like the Star Trek transporter beam. If you dissasemble someone and convert them into energy, they're dead. Whatever you assemble on the other end isn't them. It may be an EXACT copy, but the individual who asked Scotty to beam him up is dead.[/quote]

Why would the person/thing be dead? If you convert someone to energy, move that energy to another location, and then convert it back to matter, what part of the person is dead or was lost? Our current knowledge of how transporters would work has us stamping the same characteristics scanned from one molecule onto another somewhere else. But if you move the same molecule from one place to another in the form of energy, you haven't destroyed or lost the original.

As well, what is a consciousness? Is it matter or energy? If it's to be assumed that it's energy in some form, then that can be transmitted from one location to another. As well, does consciousness mean you have a soul?

After all is said and done though, we don't really have any confirmation of any of this. All we have to go on is the word of humlons. I think I'd trust Mr. Burns more than them.
Bacon
I believe the general Cylon psyche regarding dying and uploading to your copies is this:

Uploads do not occur until a Cylon dies.

Cylons believe that God gives them life individually (which is why suicide is a sin), and uploading to all the copies is also a gift from God. The life of an individual Cylon is meant to diverge from current model understanding through upload by virtue of new experiences as an individual, which will not upload to their copies until their life is a complete and whole experience - sharing the sum total of their life with their particular copies. The copies then integrate that total experience with thier own unique experience - allowing all Sharons, say, to be both unique and also undeniably still Sharon.

This one step remove - waiting until death (driven by the belief in God's commandment) - keeps Cylon individuality and desire for a life of being a sentient individual that is whole unto itself.

I also think this is why Cylons are, apparently, incapable or unwilling to upload to other Cylon models. a Six can't receive the Sharon upload, for instance.

Both the wait and the not sharing of upload favor a kind of immortal individuality, with both a continuous existence coupled with a psychologically healthy desire to live. Without these, Cylons would be The Borg. Their God is wise, in this respect. Constant interruptive updating would be a road to Borglike madness and loss of individuality within the clamor.
Gella
I tend to agree with Bacon...
And as far as Sharon's "and you wonder why?" to Adama, according to podcast that was just something cool Olmos suggested and they left in. But even if one wanted to tie it into context, it could be that Sharon read Adama's thoughts as he was choking her, much like Leoben seemed to be picking up a lot of Starbuck's thoughts during her interrogation and a lot of Adama's thoughts during Ragnar Anchorage scene.
Tulse
I dunno -- there are enough problems with Cylon capabilities as it is without making them psychic as well. I hope that isn't the explanation.
Curare
Bacon, you are smart. Just thought I share. I really like your take on this transfer stuff.
Maytree

it's never been made clear as to wether or not the humlons were built from scratch, or if they are clones from actual humans.[/quote]

They can't be actual clones because their nerve pathways are silica-based, which is why Leoben the First was dying on Ragnar while the humans were unaffected. The Cylons seem to have been messing around with human genetic material, but not making complete copies; evidence seems to indicate it is more akin to "clothing" a non-organic skeletal structure with human flesh like Ahnold in the "Terminator" movies. The Cylon internal structure includes things like glowing spinal columns (silly, but canon) and an ability to fiber-optic link with computers by shoving a wire up your arm. They're also stronger, more durable, don't need to sleep as much, and so on. Ergo, they aren't clones, even cybernetically modified ones.

They could still be swiping the "look" of actual humans for their Humlon creations, but that's not the same as cloning. (And it would really stink to be a human the Cylons chose to "pattern" one of their copies after, wouldn't it?)
Tulse
I'm not sure that they are as mechanical as a Terminator, Maytree, or else Baltar is even more incompetent that we thought. They've done full post-mortem autopsies on Humlon bodies, and we've never seen them say something like "hey, they've got metal spines with LEDs!" or "Wow, look at those wires running down their arm to that optical port!". Things like these would make Cylon detection trivial.

The problem, I think, is that Moore wants to have it both ways: the Cylons "are among us", undetectable infiltrators, and the Cylons are freakishly non-human, complete with very weird mechano-computational powers. I'm not sure we can resolve these two things without some serious fanwanking, and for me, as long as Moore doesn't intentionally rub my face in these contradictions, I'm happy to let them slide.
Curare
Do we know how Baltar's Cylon detector works?
WatchItAll

Do we know how Baltar's Cylon detector works? [/quote]

I believe Baltar bullshits his way of describing the Detector as using the Plutonium scavenged from the Nuke Warhead as "Agitating the Molecular Bonds of the synthetic materials that are used for the human-like models" or some other clap-trap.

Since this is Baltar the Ultimate Insane Card-Playing Chick-Jammin' Bullshitter Extraordinaire, he could probably have said something like "I wave the boom-boom and go 'poof!'" and Adama might have let him use the warhead.
Bacon
Thanks Gella and Curare. I have more to add on the spiritual/psychological upside, and on the downside.

The absence of the "unknown" factor regarding the afterlife provides a certainty that frees a Cylon from needless fear of death. A Cylon knows what happens to their conciousness/soul when they die: They'll continue in, not just one, but many copies; and contribute to the sum of that model's experiences.

(Humans, meanwhile, must make due with mere "faith" that their soul survives death. And the secular ones don't even have that. - Y'all can take that to the comparative religions thread.)

But Point goes to the One God there.

On the spiritual/psychological downside - Say you're GinaSix. Knowing that, when you die, all the Sixes will have the vivid memory of your torture. That's gotta frak with your psyche.
tscott1979

They'll continue in, not just one, but many copies; and contribute to the sum of that model's experiences.[/quote]

There hasn't been anything to support that has there? So far, Six & Leoben have both said that they would wake up somewhere else in an identical body. They didn't say their consciousness would be shared with other identical models. As a matter of fact, Leoben in the mini said that when he woke up in his new body after Adama had killed him that he would "tell the others where you are."


They've done full post-mortem autopsies on Humlon bodies, and we've never seen them say something like "hey, they've got metal spines with LEDs!" or "Wow, look at those wires running down their arm to that optical port!".[/quote]

Exactly. In fact, Baltar said that the bodies of humlons were indistinguishable from regular human bodies on the gross anatomy level. As well, when they were treating GalSharon in the infirmary after she shot herself, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't have noticed any tech in her body.


And it would really stink to be a human the Cylons chose to "pattern" one of their copies after, wouldn't it?[/quote]

That was what I meant. I was thinking that maybe the cylons abducted say the REAL Sharon Valeri, studied her, copied her brain (somehow, don't ask me how, I don't really care all that much), then created a humlon model that looked & behaved like the human Sharon, had ALL her memories, but contained cylon programming. That would explain why all the copies had SOME of the same memories.
Bacon

There hasn't been anything to support that has there? So far, Six & Leoben have both said that they would wake up somewhere else in an identical body. They didn't say their consciousness would be shared with other identical models.[/quote]

I don't recall that, but perhaps they evolved, or Moore decided to go the better way just this year. Because, even though CapSharon is running around being CapSaron with Helo, she still got the upload from GalBoomer. She does know what GalBoomer knows, and feels her fond memories for Chief. So, she obviously didn't upload to a single new blank cassette ... erm, copy.

Besides, if they could only upload to one, than there would only be one individual of each model at a time. But clearly, there are many copies, and our Sharons show us that they do not start from template blank, but do get upload. And they are active simulaneously.

This is superior to single chain upload. It keeps all the copies up to date with latest info, in addition to the other points above. Otherwise, Cylons are just immortals. (A concept that has been done to death in genre entertainment.)
Tweeky

It might also explain why GalactiBoomer kept 'transmitting' even tho she was 'dead' for all appearances. Her corpse became a direct transmitter, no having to wait til sleepy time to send packets back and forth. Then when PreggoBoomer snoozed during the super tense camping trip from Hell, she got DeadBoomer's info via Cymail when sleeping. [/quote]

Mighty Cuinn, the impression I got was after the cylons found out Helo was on Caprica(no doubt from interogating some of the Capricans left behind with him). They decided on the spur of the moment to include Helo in their breeding experiments, with the obvious breeding partner/candidate being Sharon. But in order to succesfully pull this off and trick him into this experiment, it was then neccesary for her to have GalacticaSharon's memories(to fool Helo). Now what I think happened is that even though GalBoomer didn't know her true nature, part of her hidden protocols would've been regular infodumps of her memories to some sort of data storage facility. Now this is what I think happened once they included Helo in the experiments, they activated a Boomer (one of the spares in storage for other Sharons whose previous bodies have died) and downloaded into her brain GalBoomer's memories. Then they gave her, her mission brief and set her to work.
Remember CapSharon has indicated to Adama and others that she basically can't access the cylon network anymore, whether by her own choice or (more likely) she's been cut-off because of her defection(wouldn't do to have her privy to data that wasn't in her brief).


They can't be actual clones because their nerve pathways are silica-based, which is why Leoben the First was dying on Ragnar while the humans were unaffected. [/quote]

Actually Maytree I don't think that's case, remember when Adama realised that cylons had taken on human form at Ragnar. It was just speculation by him as the colonials had been out touch with them for 40 years. My guess is their brains incorporate nanotech which in of itself their brain doesn't need to operate, but my guess is these "Sillica pathways" and the glowing spine(re: antenna) are there to up/download information and memories. In other words they're there for the purpose of transfering a biocylon's conscience. Either to upload when ther body dies or to download their counscious into a new boby.

Phew! that post was longer than I expected-I hope I didn't get to off topic.
Raina SaDiablo

which will not upload to their copies until their life is a complete and whole experience[/quote]
Interesting theory, but then how did CapSharon know Helo before GalBoomer died?
Tulse
If I recall correctly, at the end of the mini, the Leoben on Ragnar tells the other Humlons that the radiation does indeed damage their "silica pathways", implying that they are indeed in their brain (which is why Leoben was so ill).

(I find this all a bit frustrating, because I'm not sure that even Moore knows how Humlons work. If I thought there was a real answer, I think I'd be more keen on coming up with appropriate explanations, but so far what we've seen really makes no sense.)
Bacon
Biblically? :::rimshot::: Gah! Good point. Standard intel channels? Back to my drawing board.
Raina SaDiablo
Hmm... I suppose at some point GalBoomer could have typed up an autobiography and sent it to CapSharon, who then managed to successfully impersonate GalBoomer based on the facts she knew and their identical personalities, even though she didn't actually gain the memories.
Tweeky

Interesting theory, but then how did CapSharon know Helo before GalBoomer died?[/quote]

My understanding is that all her memories from GalBoomer are complete up till the point just prior to the cylon attack. What I meant about my speculation here was that all Biocylons(including sleepers) would regularly upload batches of new memories at regular intervals, CapBoomer up activation would've had those memories downloaded into her so that she could succesfully fool Helo into thinking she was GalBoomber. I suppose the point of having regular data dumps would a) be used as a source of intelligence and b) when a Biocylon's body died, there wouldn't be the need to upload an entire lifetime's worth of memories in one go(that presumeably would take a long time).
But to get back on topic-if a biocylon knew that it's memories would go into another inactive body upon it's current body's death. That would then have major implications on it's worldview, for it wouldn't have the same sort of fear of death that we have. And that would effect it's conduct-for instance Doral's suicide bomb attempt comes to mind or Leobon's fear of his death because he was too far from the cylon network.
Soulful Skeptic

Hmm... I suppose at some point GalBoomer could have typed up an autobiography and sent it to CapSharon, who then managed to successfully impersonate GalBoomer based on the facts she knew and their identical personalities, even though she didn't actually gain the memories. [/quote]

It all really comes down to how much the memories of the Cylons are or are not just elaborate data files.

Obviously Cylon agents should (consciously or not) make regular reports back to home base if it's possible to do so. I prefer the idea that those regular reports are not equivalent to Full-On Uploads - digests of text data, important video clips, and perhaps a rare few model-specific emotional-impressions. Only a "resurrecting" Cylon would get the full-bore total-memory experience.

The possible bits of memory and personality for any given individual Cylon include:

1) Universal basic Cylon knowledge (suppressible in agents).
2) Basic template personality parameters, specific for each of the 12 models.
3) (Optional) Excerpts from an expanding "basic memory database" for that model.
4) (Optional) Total Life-Experience Download from a just-deceased Cylon of the same model, including whatever universal and model-specific Basic Memories it had started out with.
5) (Optional) Specifically-crafted cover-identity knowledge and memories, flagged as either "genuinely believed" or "known to be false" depending on the new unit's mission.
6) (Optional) Excerpts from higher-security levels of universal yet restricted knowledge/memories, based on a unit's Need to Know.
7) (Optional) Post-activation uploads of data from the Cylon network, possibly including updates from that model's expanding "basic memory database", limited by personal interest, model-specific compatabilities, and/or access restrictions.
8) Personal, individual memories and personality adjustments acquired in the time since activation (PegaSix is not the same personality as ChipSix, natch).

For a fresh-minted Cylon who's expected to stay on the Cylon side, they'd get 1, 2, and 3. A normal individual would regularly connect to the network to get 7, and would acquire 8 naturally.

For a resurrecting Cylon, they'd pretty much just get 4, which would include (possibly outdated) versions of 1, 2, and 3. Connections to the network via 7 would catch the individual up on anything "universally important" to its model that it might have missed due to separation. (The only real difference between a freshly minted Cylon, a long-lived Cylon, and a frequently-resurrected-yet-updated Cylon is the specific accumulated life-experience any given one happens to have.)

Cylon sleepers would get (suppressed) universal data from 1 and 3, the basic personality template of 2, and the elaborate "false life" of 5. Any mission specific implanted or uploaded knowledge from 6 or 7 would remain suppressed from the conscious mind.

Hypothetical "Cylon leaders/priests/prophets" would get 1, 2, 3, and a heavy dose of the supersecret goodness in 6, including specifics about "the Plan" and whether or not the God Cylons talk about is, secretly, less than an omnipotent abstract spiritual Creator and more of a hidden Wizard-of-Oz-esque human or toaster or manputer or femputer.

All Cylons in range of the (standard, non-Upload-level) communications for the Cylon Network would regularly download the "updates" of number 7. Data coming from other models or Raiders would be "book learning" intellectual knowledge. Data coming from the same model could be merely intellectual knowledge or possibly "something to remember". If it is "something to remember", it's also added to that model's Basic Memory Database for future freshly-minted models.

I'm guessing that CapriSharon was either freshly-minted or freshly-updated when we first see her. She knows, in at least intellectual-knowledge digest form, everything general that happened to GalactiSharon up to GalactiSharon's last secret report, as does every other Cylon everywhere that needs to know. CapriSharon might have knowledge of GalactiSharon's "super secret special" missions and codes, if CapriSharon is flagged as Need to Know. Likewise any other Cylon anywhere who is so flagged. Anything that got downloaded from GalactiSharon in full-memory mode would be something that CapriSharon can "remember", but that any other non-Sharon Cylon with a need to know would have access to only as intellectual data.

When GalactiSharon got shot by Cally, it would be my expectation that, somewhere, an inactive, freshly-minted Sharon model got the Total-Experience Upload, and then proceeded to post a digest update to the Cylon network. All Cylons with a need to know would have the details of her experiences on their next connection, while other model-Sharons would also get full-memory "remembrance" of anything deemed worthy of being added to the Sharon-model Basic Memory Database (not much, probably).

So we can explain how CapriSharon was intellectually aware of what Leoban said to Starbuck, if we assume that his Total Upload got relayed into a waiting, freshly-minted body, and then reported to the Network.

The fact that CapriSharon seemed to be unaware of the specifics of how GalactiSharon died, until she was told on Kobol, means that she was not able to download that information, either because she was frozen out of the network or because it was considered information she didn't need to know, and thus not available to her when she did hook up.
Bacon
Good observations. OMG, the Cylons are Linux! A core kernel (Cylontology)- different versions of full release product (Six = Red hat. Sharons are Gentoo. Lebolen is Debian? BWAH!) Major info updates of full versions go whole numbers 1.0, 2.0 etc. and minor updates and intel are afterdecimal patches. And it's free.
Tweeky

Good observations. OMG, the Cylons are Linux! A core kernel (Cylontology)- different versions of full release product (Six = Red hat. Sharons are Gentoo. Lebolen is Debian? BWAH!) Major info updates of full versions go whole numbers 1.0, 2.0 etc. and minor updates and intel are afterdecimal patches. And it's free.[/quote]

So Bacon if the core kernal(Cylontology) is Linux does that then mean the Cylons god is Linus Torvald(finnish Guy who invented Linux) if that's the case, does that then mean the Cylon's devil is Bill Gates. I wonder where he'd fit in the Colonials pantheon of gods :).

By the way Soulful Skeptic, you stated in your post in a far more concise manner than what I was trying to convey in my posts here. I really think RDM should look at your explaination as this is definitely a good explaination as to how this whole Consciounce/Soul transfer process and protocols could work.
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