I'm feeling a little old, here. I'm thinking this is a generational thing to some extent. I don't know how long ago NC-17 replaced the X rating, but I'm thinking for the younger viewers, XXX would relate more to the action movie, while for older viewers who remember the days of movies, book stores, topless bars, and strip clubs being touted as XXX-rated would be more likely to think porn.
I saw the red flyer with the big XXX as an ad for a porn store or something. [/quote]
I think XXX is not a generational thing, it's an age thing. Porno is porno, you know it when you see it and it's described in three terms, soft-core, hard-core, and XXX. What falls into those 3 terms has changed and will continue to change - both conservative and liberal.
The youngster XXX in terms of action movies is a newer trend, but I find the 'play on terms' interesting.
That being said, the XXX does bring us to new meaning in terms of our understanding of the term. I think that XXX to a 12 year old (YO) probably means something different than XXX to a 22 YO and again to a 32 (YO). I think that a 12 year hearing adults talk about zoning laws regulating a XXX movie theater (thinking action flick), may be very different than a 22 YO fresh out of college and in a rental community (probably some knowledge), which is still different from a 32 YO with a mortgage going not-in-my-backyard.
Going back to the flyers, you point out that the different terminology could turn some of your potential customer base way off (porn). To others, they may relate and respond to action (current action movies). Kristi may even have saw movies advertised in the neighborhood that used XXX (movie way) and thought to tie in. Unfortunately, what was missed is the double connotation and the ultimate unknown - how would your potential customer interpret?? Actually, stating that, I'm really surprised that Bally's let the campaign go forward. That is, assuming they had ultimate authority on the marketing (since it was held at their facility, it makes sense - insurance purposes).
Yes, I know she was hella abrasive, but they only needed one more customer to win - she could've pitched to some of the men in the gym instead of scaring off the awful easily-intimidated women. I suspect she does get along better with men, not because women are intimidated by her and men aren't, but because she's probably just a little nicer to men. I also suspect that she will never in a million years connect the disparity between how she gets along with men and how she gets along with women to her own treatment of them.
[/quote]
The more I think about this show and episode, I almost wish it would have been a multiple-firing/double losing team episode. Kristi and Melissa both deserved to be fired, both teams should have been hauled in for the horrific marketing (tactics and messaging) and I finally have a true LOL - Donald hand-picked these people!
Kristi deserved to be fired more-so for poor management than poor marketing. She failed to turn a negative into a positive in this instance. At the beginning of the show, there are so many people. Recognizing Melissa's problem with the campaign, she should have said - fine, here's 50 flyer's go market inside Bally's and the rest of the team would market outside. That way, Melissa couldn't complain (and has the opportunity to look like a hero), she removes the disruptive element from her team, and, if need be, could later say, we lost by $11 Melissa was so bent on this alley, if she showed the same effort on the street with the rest of the team, we would have won.
Melissa deserved to be fired because instead of the whining and complaining, she could have said, give me 50 flyers and 90 minutes inside Bally's. Let me gauge the interest/registration and report back. That's another problem with this show - one directional minds.
You have to work towards one goal (management - Kristi) and you can have two rights (inside/outside recruitment) but the key is turning those two rights into a client approval (Trump's).
Again, looking back, it was 51-49 either way (and Kristi won the gamble). I think Melissa's biggest challenge to overcome - she think's she can't work with women (for who cares the reason) and therefore goes out her way to ensure women can't work with her. I loved the clear arguments made by some of the team in the BR, but would prefer to see them earlier in the task. Perhaps, that would make the difference.
TwistTie
Sep 25, 2005 @ 12:56 pm
I suggest that as a memorial to Mellissa, we begin each sentence with "At the end of the day...[/quote]
I'm surprised she didn't pull out the ol' "She didn't walk the walk" BS. If I can ever go through at least one episode of TA without hearing "at the end of the day" I'm be a happy gal. These are supposed to be briliant business people. Surely they can be brilliant enough not to fall into cliche.
I'm sure that phrase is part of an Apprentice drinking game somewhere. If not it should be.
Philyra
Sep 25, 2005 @ 1:04 pm
A big deal was made over the fact that the men's team got first dibs and chose the gym in the "nicer", more affluent neighborhood, yet they still only won by $11, one sale. The men's team was just as poorly managed, if not worse, than the women's team. They won more by luck and the other team imploding than anything else, and I'm glad PM exemption's not a given anymore.
Libby5645
Sep 25, 2005 @ 1:16 pm
Keupi, I love your idea of giving proper feedback to the teams. It makes a bit of a nonsense of the idea of this being about business tasks when one team is said to have lost miserably when they have only lost by £11/one ticket. Yes of course there has to be a loser, but with a proper examination of the techniques etc we could ALL learn something and the weasels would have an opportunity to atually improve and learn from the experts. Mind you, we don't want to miss the opportunity for more 'So Carolyn, aren't YOU intimidated by my glory?'
LolaLilaLilly
Sep 25, 2005 @ 1:59 pm
I hated Melissa's little, "I'm Hispanic so I know what they'll pay for a class..." little tirade.
As if all Hispanics are geneticaly pre-programed to spend no more than $15 for a fitness class.
Also hated her little "skit" of acting out like Hispanic walking out the door, "Pssht, that was a waste of money..." turns around to walk the other way, "Pfft. Don't do that in there...", etc.
And Melissa?
You're not that pretty. Get over yourself.
deejoy
Sep 25, 2005 @ 4:24 pm
And "Team Excel" will forever in my mind be "Team Spreadsheet". [/quote]
I thought the same thing. I had a sudden urge to construct a spreadsheet on my computer.The name is pretty lame.
Yes they do. I used to teach at Bally's....it would have worked a little better if they would have marketed inside the class. Made an announcement to the club. [/quote]
True. Because everytime I see a Bally's rep out on the street, I run in the opposite direction LOL.
Black Knight
Sep 25, 2005 @ 5:15 pm
I don't know how long ago NC-17 replaced the X rating, but I'm thinking for the younger viewers, XXX would relate more to the action movie, while for older viewers who remember the days of movies, book stores, topless bars, and strip clubs being touted as XXX-rated would be more likely to think porn.[/quote]
(Pedant alert!) NC-17 didn't replace the X rating. It was created as an alternative to the X rating because it was considered unfair that your average mindless hardcore porn flick was being grouped under the same tarnished rating as more substantial movies that included heavy sex in them. The critics wanted a rating for the latter that wouldn't be automatic box office poison, and I believe Henry and June was the first movie to receive the NC-17 rating. (Watching that movie nowadays, I really don't understand why it's a NC-17 instead of a R, except maybe lesbian sex was still taboo for a non-porn movie at that time.) Unfortunately NC-17 has failed in that it's still box office poison.
I think it might be more of a gender and geographical/travel thing than an age thing. Men are heavier consumers of porn than women, so the connotation of XXX is likelier to be known to them. And people who have ever gone through a red light neighborhood will also be aware - so, city dwellers, travellers to places like Las Vegas, etc. are going to know. I still see XXX on strip clubs' signs; it's still very much in use.
Team Capital Edge should be eternally grateful that Trump found out Excel's name first. I think that's the only reason why he reacted positively to Capital Edge, another stupid name, but at least one that doesn't call to mind a Microsoft spreadsheet program.
Bassari99
Sep 25, 2005 @ 5:21 pm
Perhaps, Melissa was being a bit presumptuous in assuming she had a leg up in understanding how best to market to potential Ballys' clients in Spanish Harlem. Apparently, Melissa is a self-defined Hispanic or Latina, but that encompasses an awful lot of people from very diverse cultural backgrounds. From my memory growing up in NYC in the 60s and 70s, most of the residents of Spanish Harlem back then were of Puerto Rican ancestry and poor to working class. I don't know the majority ethnic makeup of that community today, nor its preponderant socioeconomic demographic. What is Melissa's specific ethnic background? Is she of Puerto Rican descent? Cuban? Colombian? Dominican? Mexican? Some other ethnicity? A mixture? I imagine it makes a difference. Does she even speak Spanish? It would appear Melissa did not grow up in Spanish Harlem (her bio says she's from Tampa, Fla.), so unless she had some prior experience with the residents of that community, it was, in retrospect, perhaps inappropriate for her to be so emphatic in her judgements about what they would or would not spend on an exercise class.
alzwife
Sep 25, 2005 @ 5:39 pm
As someone of Puerto Rican decent, I found Melissa and her assumptions very presumptuous. Spanish Harlem is a diverse community. Melissa and her assumptions reminded me of Tara in TA3 and her wanting to make a statement on the billboard for "The Community", because she "knows".
I enjoyed the start of TA4 and look foward to a great season. I don't think Krisi was that bad a leader. She was as good or maybe better than Markus. Markus won't be around much longer. I think even Trump had enough of him. Trump fired the right person this week.
Edited because you are so right Magsi2.
Magsi2
Sep 25, 2005 @ 5:46 pm
Melissa and her assumptions reminded me of Tanya in TA3 and her wanting to make a statement on the billboard for "The Community", because she "knows".[/quote]
I think you mean Tara not Tanya. It was the episode about the game advertisement/billboard that she tried to make a mural/work of art instead of advertising the game with "bling" like Alex did with his mini-focus group.
Ashforth
Sep 25, 2005 @ 7:39 pm
Another minus (IIRC) is that by focusing on this group, they never asked a key question - what time of day would work best for this class?[/quote]
At one point they showed the men discussing how long the class should be and saying that if the class was shorter, they could have more of them. So I think it was a series of classes, not just one. Besides, the ones they showed didn't have very many people in them, so they had to have had more than one class per team.
As for the women's team, there seems to be an assumption that just because Melissa said that the only marketing done was on the street, that's the truth. If the women weren't marketing to the club members, why was there even a discussion of what the members would pay for a class? Clearly they did both.
Recognizing Melissa's problem with the campaign, she should have said - fine, here's 50 flyer's go market inside Bally's and the rest of the team would market outside. That way, Melissa couldn't complain (and has the opportunity to look like a hero), she removes the disruptive element from her team...[/quote]
I respectfully disagree. Kristi had already seen Melissa's obnoxious behavior and belittling attitude toward the club's members. Getting Melissa away from the "inside" marketing was smart. If she's haranguing people on the street about how stupid her manager is, she is at least not contaminating your main customer base. Don't forget, they were inside the club when Kristi had to take Melissa aside to tell her to tone it down in front of the customers. Melissa ranting to a bunch of disinterested passersby is much better than that.
Peg Amy
Sep 25, 2005 @ 8:38 pm
Perhaps, Melissa was being a bit presumptuous in assuming she had a leg up in understanding how best to market to potential Ballys' clients in Spanish Harlem.[/quote]
ITA. I took ballet in Spanish Harlem and the girls in my class and I paid much more for our classes than the women were suggesting for an exercise class. There's no law about what Hispanics will pay. Good grief.
Chaka
Sep 25, 2005 @ 10:28 pm
New! The Apprentice! Now with less dignity than ever!
One thing I will say for these people is that they are better-looking than last season's withered crop. And apparently marginally more together, which brings them all the way up to tie-your-own-shoelace level.
So, was there no one named "Jen" in this group? What? Who dropped the ball in casting?
I knew I hated Melissa when she was standing all snotty in front of a confused customer during the market-research (riiiiight) phase and she squawked at him: "Okay, what's your number? Your number? The highest number you'll pay?" I was sitting there, thinking "Bitch, what's your high number? How much would it cost us to shut you the fuck up?"
So Donald Trump can just put that on my tab.
IMO Kristie looked like one of the vampire extras from "Buffy," especially with that half-lidded "I vant to suck your blud" smile at the end. I expect she'll survive for some time on the scholarship from Donald Trump's Special Exemption Fund for Incompetent but Marginally Attractive Blondes.
Markus should shut up. But also: so should Donald Trump.
tiggeril
Sep 25, 2005 @ 11:11 pm
So, was there no one named "Jen" in this group? What? Who dropped the ball in casting?[/quote]
Heh. We have two Jennifers again this season. One's an ex beauty queen. The other... well... they're both invisible so far.
tvmovielover
Sep 26, 2005 @ 7:05 am
I think you are right Black Knight that XXX may be a gender/geographical thing. My husband over 50 and several younger males in the family from the New York City area were all familiar with XXX as porn. The females? Less so.
I wonder if it has been posted where in Spanish Harlem the Bally's was located? Was it really a mostly Hispanic neighborhood or a transitional one with a cross-section of New Yorkers?
On the extras, the men are shown dropping the price to $10 so neither neighborhood was willing to pay very much whether inside or on the street. The win seems like good luck to me with that information instead of better business skills.
Trader Joe
Sep 26, 2005 @ 8:10 am
I hated both team names, Capital Edge? Is it a credit card or a bank or a razor? LOTUS would have been a better spreadsheet team name.....
I think Apex was the best team names so far, although I cant remember what the names were in season 1.
Cicero
Sep 26, 2005 @ 9:30 am
The thing about the XXX flyer....to me, and I was bummed that even Carolyn missed this...it's not so much about the idea of porn. It's the idea that it looked like everything else passed out on the streets of NYC. I've walked down the streets of NYC many a time trying to avoid being invited to some exotic dancing club, given away free jewlery if I paid a billion dollars, etc.
Putting XXX on it made no one who got it want to read it.
Not that anyone in NYC reads the flyers (which is why flyers NEVER work on this show)...but you get the idea.
ConanGrammarian
Sep 26, 2005 @ 11:20 am
Wow, Trump must have a thing for Southern women. It seems like quite a few of them had a twangy accent.[/quote]
Most "Yankee" men do. They fall for the "magnolia and molasses" and think Southern women are compliant and wispy. Southern men know different.
I think Trumpy is surrounded by New Yawk women and the accent thing is a turn-on because it's different.
The thing about the XXX flyer....to me, and I was bummed that even Carolyn missed this...it's not so much about the idea of porn. It's the idea that it looked like everything else passed out on the streets of NYC. [/quote]
Agreed Cicero. There was nothing about it that said "Read me if you're interested in fitness."
And why a flyer? Haven't they seen how badly working the streets with flyers bombed in TAs 1-3?
If I'm wandering the streets of NYC without my gym clothes, why would I go into Bally's on the spur of the moment and take a class? The men (forgot the less-than-memorable team names already) had the right idea - market to people who already have their gym clothes with them.
Doesn't anyone remember Kendra's winning strategies last season?
Why not grab Bally's e-mail list and send a notice of the class to the members?
mistahtrump
Sep 26, 2005 @ 12:46 pm
I'm sure that phrase is part of an Apprentice drinking game somewhere. If not it should be.[/quote]
Bwah! Well played, TwistTie!, Somewhere in a land far, far away (it's a yoooge distance), the hairs on the freshly bleached combover are rustling, 'must…patent…idea…for…game…to…compensate…for…bankrupt…businesses…'
Brachiator
Sep 26, 2005 @ 1:23 pm
(Pedant alert!) NC-17 didn't replace the X rating. It was created as an alternative to the X rating because it was considered unfair that your average mindless hardcore porn flick was being grouped under the same tarnished rating as more substantial movies that included heavy sex in them.[/quote]
Double pedant alert,
Black Knight! The porn industry purloined the X rating because the MPAA failed to trademark it, and the rating soon became such a kiss of death that many newspapers would not carry ads for X rated films even if they had serious themes.
But I’ve also seen XXX used to advertise adult stores and products throughout the country, so I don’t think it’s a regional thing, although males probably
do recognize it as porn-related more than do women. That said, the flyer practically screamed, “inappropriate, ineffective, unimaginative.”
Doesn't anyone remember Kendra's winning strategies last season?[/quote]
Word, ConanGrammarian. The Donald may have personally selected these candidates, but they are not showing much talent or creativity in the first task.
BTW, I am not a big fan of the teams being separated by gender. Melissa might not have self-destructed so quickly had she been on a co-ed team, and she might have had chance to either moderate her views or take them to an even more obnoxious extreme.
AlmondEyes
Sep 26, 2005 @ 4:15 pm
As far as trite Apprentice phrases go, I'm waiting for someone to bust out the "taking accountability" line that always seems to make an appearance.
There is actually a blonde Jennifer M. this season, too. And Trump personally picked most of this cast. Geez, is he still having wet dreams about last season's Jennifer M? Way to be overly obvious there, dude.
scarletsmith
Sep 26, 2005 @ 5:01 pm
I'm watching the Yahoo Extended footage. Wow, Melissa was awful. And Alla nailed it--Melissa has a tremendous capability for deluding herself. Melissa kept trying to deny that her entire team thought she should go home, falling back on repeating "No, they said I was negative" while Trump was trying to make the point that she herself had admitted that she could not work with women. It was really, really scary.
EMPulse
Sep 26, 2005 @ 5:48 pm
The only thing missing from the mad-dash-across-the-golf-course scene is Trump and a rifle...hunting the apprentii for sport. And maybe George saying (in a mock British accent), "I say! Good show, sir!"
musichic2000
Sep 26, 2005 @ 6:20 pm
...
intrepide
Sep 26, 2005 @ 10:54 pm
As far as trite Apprentice phrases go, I'm waiting for someone to bust out the "taking accountability" line that always seems to make an appearance.
Yeah, really. They've already started with the use of "unorganized."[/quote]
I'm waiting for "s/he needs adult supervision." My bet is that it's more likely to come up on Martha's show, particularly referring to "Hateful Jim."
BuonGiorno
Sep 27, 2005 @ 1:00 am
The only thing missing from the mad-dash-across-the-golf-course scene is Trump and a rifle...hunting the apprentii for sport. And maybe George saying (in a mock British accent), "I say! Good show, sir!" [/quote]
That's a good one. But the scene won't be complete without always-so-straight forward-and-so-dignified Carolyn putting her two manicured fingers in her thin-lipped mouth and producing a deafenning whistle and screaming: Lovely, very lovely, Donald, sir! And then, of course, praising Donald more.
After this run to the helicopter, which was an incredibly humiliating scene, I don't think Carolyn has any rights to play a dignified person or just a lady....
SoTired
Sep 27, 2005 @ 7:17 am
Melissa kept trying to deny that her entire team thought she should go home[/quote]
Was it just me or did Marshawn seem to be on the fence about Melissa? Not that I think Melissa didn't need to go, but I got the feeling that not everyone agreed that she sould get the 'cobra strike'. I am basing this on her expression when the fur started flying about Melissa early on in the board room.
I think at that point Marshawn saw the way the wind was blowing and - quite rightly - did not step into the path of the freight train.
Trader Joe
Sep 27, 2005 @ 8:12 am
The first task and they have, what 14 people? They have enough people to market inside the gym, outside the gym, under the gym, on top the gym, EVERYWHERE, they really dont have to pick one or the other. What the first task NEVER has is a true leader, which is what it would take to get 14 people working on the same thing.
At the end when you have 3 people and one is exempt and you REALLY have to kick ass and make choices.
DeepInTheHeart
Sep 27, 2005 @ 1:27 pm
Bonus question- which moronic former contestant said this and got memorably fired in the same ep?[/quote]
That, I believe, was Michael -- "Trump dates only Eastern European models; I only date ... [etc.]"
Random thoughts:
1. George's cackle when Trump rather incredulously pointed at the phone and commented that "This guy (Markus) talks a lot" was rich.
2. Years ago, I remember being handed a flier in Times Square that looked much like the pathetic item that Capital Edge was handing out, but the flier I received also added, "Tenemos las mujeres de todas las nacionales." (We have women from everywhere). Might as well get straight to the point -- "We want to make you sweat" is just too subtle.
3. If Melissa had wanted to make herself useful to appeal to the hispanics in the area, she might have offered to develop some Spanish language marketing.
4. The moment I saw the women handing out fliers, I figured they were going to lose. That tactic is a kiss of death on this show.
5. I thought the Boardroom was pretty civilized. The women other than Melissa generally seemed to make sense.
6. Famous last words: "I won't let it happen again" (to let Kristi get under my skin). Anytime that a candidate comes up with this one, it's almost an automatic firing.
7. Rather than just voting on whether the PM should receive an exemption or not, I would opt to require the team to grant someone an exemption, but allow it to be anyone on the team. That would start a discussion on who was the MVP on the team. Some of the "reward" footage could be sacrificed in lieu of this feature.
8. Just my impression, but this one seems like Randal's to lose. Not a lock by any stretch of the imagination, but it wouldn't hurt the demographics of the winners for the articulate, highly educated black guy to be the next Apprentice. What is he doing on this show anyway?
9. Had she been given a bit more screen time, Carolyn would have shredded Melissa in the boardroom. A single look = thousand sarcastic criticisms.
NotTheBox
Sep 27, 2005 @ 5:29 pm
7. Rather than just voting on whether the PM should receive an exemption or not, I would opt to require the team to grant someone an exemption, but allow it to be anyone on the team. That would start a discussion on who was the MVP on the team. Some of the "reward" footage could be sacrificed in lieu of this feature.[/quote]
I like that idea. That would eliminate some of the - I am so sick of the term flying under the radar- but can't think of a better term so... It would encourage the non PMs to take more initiative in coming up with good ideas, instead of just sitting back and waiting for the PM to either implode or lead them to a victory where the non PM can get by just by being non confrontational and less of a fuckup than the fuckups. Maybe we'd actually see more innovative ideas, more creativity. I understand why the non PMs often resort to the FUR strategy, but dammit they're all supposed to be so bright- they certainly think highly of themselves, and it would be nice to let the viewers see some of it. Also, I hate the reward things. The reward is winning, and showing yourself to advantage on national tv, and your idea would help the GOOD players AND the audience.
druish princess
Sep 27, 2005 @ 6:12 pm
DeepintheHeart you get a sticker- it was Michael
ConanGrammarian
Sep 27, 2005 @ 6:20 pm
Interesting idea, DeepInTheHeart. ITA with NotTheBox's assessment of the impact.
Something to that effect might keep the JenM's from stealing credit for the ideas of the Ivana's - knowing the truth would come out at the MVP voting.
Imagine DT's face when he finds out his favorite blonde didn't invent the wheel - it was invented by the crazy Asian instead.
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