I'm glad Kelly lost, only because I won't have to listen to JOH's cry baby pee pee pants anymore. Talk about a poor looser. Wahhhhh call the wambulance already. I believe that if JOH won the first time around there would have been NO dance off.

Remember when this was just a fun silly summer show and we all loved it because it was fun and silly? I think ABC really blew it by having this dance off. They went for blood and money, and may have ruined the show.

It would be cool to see Loni Anderson on the show in the future. I loved her from waaaay back, when she played "Jennifer" on "WKRP in Cincinnati." Artem was seen in the audience, too...do you think maybe they'll bring him in for next time? There are going to be nine couples, so that means we'll see at least three new pro faces next time around. Well, at least two, since I've heard that Anya Trebunskaya will be one of the pros. But of course that's just a rumor so who knows for sure.

It would be kind of amusing to see Alec paired with someone TOTALLY different next time around, like Bea Arthur. I'm serious (in a somewhat snarky way, though). :-)

Word.

I think the reason why there was a dance-off in the first place was because it was Kelly (who's an ABC star) who won the competition. JOH started to cry foul, his fans cried foul...wah, wah, wah.

So, I think ABC felt that in order to keep the credibility of the show, they needed to have a "dance-off" to let the audience decide.

To me, I think Kelly's fans figured, "meh, she won the first time, I'm not going to phone in a vote," which is what, I think, caused the loss. A shame, really.

John would have cried if anyone won the show except him. He would have had the same shitfit if Joey won the show because of his "built in boyband fanbase" - even though said boyband was over 15 years ago.

If Rachel had won he would have complained about her years of ballet training and that he couldn't compete against Jonathan Roberts who is a Pro-Am Champion.

If Trista won he would have made the same ABC accusation.

I loved Loni Anderson on WKRP. Hell, I loved all the characters on that show. Let's just chalk it up to a weakness for great writing.

Artem was sitting next to Mary Murphy, one of the SYTYCD judges, his biggest cheerleader, and likely his entree into the DWtS audience. Does he have enough experience to choreograph, train and lead a novice dance partner to a win? That I don't know. Would I follow him anywhere just to watch him dance? You betcha. In fact, I'm writing a Diet Coke commercial for him right now. I'll print it in the SYTYCD forum and the Coke company is welcome to it, as long as Artem gets the gig.

You know, what I'm focusing on? Those last few seconds of the results program. John went over to Kelly, swept her up in his arms and twirled her around like a feather in a strong gust of wind. For her part, Kelly laughed and stretched her arms and legs out like she was floating on a cloud of dreams. I didn't see any rancour. I didn't see any egos run amuck. I saw two people celebrating the end of a great run and ready to move on to whatever comes next.

What every person I know who's been closely involved with the industry has told me and what I have to believe is this: it's just television. Enjoy it for what it is. Don't try and make it into something it's not. If you do, you'll just wind up bitter and frustrated. Life's too short and there's a much bigger percentage in looking for the best in the world.

Artem has got pretty much the same experience as Alec had. Alec danced in amateur events in the US until mid-August of 2004. He and Edyta turned "pro" right after the 2004 Nationals. At that Nationals, Artem & Giselle were third, and Alec & Edyta were sixth.

It is very common and allowed for elite-level amateurs like Alec, Edyta, Artem, and Giselle to teach while they are still competing as amateurs. All four of them have been heavily involved in teaching youth dancers. Prior to "Dancing with the Stars," neither Alec nor Edyta had much experience teaching adult beginners, whereas Jonathan Roberts has had a very successful career doing so. Louis and Charlotte both have had vast experience teaching everyone from young prodigies to adult beginners to top professional competitors. I'm not sure what Ashly's background was in terms of teaching, but I can well imagine that she was teaching youths in Utah, as youth dancing is very popular there and that is where she was based.

I just had a thought, though: I wonder if Artem is under some kind of contract to Fox or at least to Nigel's production company, which would prevent him from appearing in a dance show created by a competing company/network.

I'd love to see a former-Soviet-Republic-Latin-hottie showdown (Alec -- Belarus, Artem -- Russia). I can think of some other pros who would be lovely on the show: for instance, Nik Kosovich, who danced with Charlotte on the show the other night. (By the way, I believe that one of Kosovich's ex-partners is none other than the actual Tina Sparkle from "Strictly Ballroom.")

There will be fun to be had when this rolls around again for a new series. I guess if we're lucky we'll start getting meaty rumors come December -- if they're going to air in January, then they'll have to start training the next generation of "stars" in December.

I loved Tina Sparkle and her fruity rumba! Sonia Kruger, the dancer who played Tina, is the cohost of the Aussie DWTS.

Yes, they get Tina, and we get Lisa Canning. Life is just not fair sometimes.

Congratulations, John!

No, not for winning the dance-off, but for being able to dance quite nicely despite having a stick up your ass.

I was really quite surprised how, in the short time after the original finale, I went from being primarily a Kelly-fan who nevertheless would've been satisfied had John won, to wanting to smack a bitch whenever he smugged up the camera.

(And yes, I'm judging personality in addition to the dancing itself, but last I heard John and Kelly weren't vying for a potentially life-altering break into the world of professional dance so I don't feel too bad about it.)

Ever try to lead a partner? It's much harder than it looks--especially at the amateur level. You have to use every muscle in your upper body to get your partner to go where she needs to go in order to execute her part properly, and if it doesn't work, it's like dancing with a brick wall. I had forgotten just how difficult leading is until I started going back to ballroom dancing recently after having been away from it for 20 years, and I was surprised at how much of my upper body I had to use to get my partner (an extremely experienced dancer) to do what she needed to do. Your posture has to be perfect at all times, and you have to maintain close body contact at all times, especially in the Standard dances; again, if it's not there, it's like dancing with a brick wall, and it's confusing for the lady as well. With the Latin there is a little more visual lead, but a lot of it is still physical--and done through the arms--spaghetti arms won't cut it.

John had the most difficulty in terms of what he had to do with his entire body--Kelly only had to follow what Alec wanted her to do with her feet.

By the way, let's not forget the real reason that this dance-off took place. John's fans wouldn't have had so much of a problem with the results of the original competition had Kelly not gotten three 10s for a mistake-ridden freestyle that was nowhere near a "10" in terms of either artistry or technical merit--I myself counted at least five gross errors, including a near-disastrous lift attempt at the end. There are those who argue that those 10s were merely ordinals and not meant as an indication of the true quality of her dancing, but if those 10s (on a scale of 1 to 10) didn't denote perfect dancing, then what would have--a 12? What set John's fans off wasn't the fact that she won the popular vote--that was always considered a given--but that she won the judges' vote when she clearly didn't deserve to, solely to reach and rubber-stamp what appeared to be a pre-ordained result. Now, contrast that scenario with the 10s that John and Charlotte got for their Waltz in the dance-off, and tell me that those 10s weren't meant to indicate perfection and that they weren't deserved. If you can convince me of that, then I'll go along with all the "bittercakes" arguments that have been leveled against John.

Kelly and Alec's original finale freestyle may have been riddled with mistakes. I'm no expert, so I can't speak adequately about that. But to my untrained eye, and apparently to the judge's trained ones since they waxed so rhapsodic about it, their freestyle was better than John and Charlotte's. Since John and Charlotte got three nines, the only way to show that they preferred Kelly and Alec's was to give them 10s. Maybe John and Charlotte would have one if they had stuck to their strengths and done a more elegant freestyle. But they didn't, and they lost. I personally didn't think that John seemed bitter until he said that nobody deserved three tens. Whether he believed that or not, it was ungracious, and I didn't see him rushing to give his three tens back in the dance-off.

As for the leading v. following, I personally think that it evens out. John had to learn to how lead well and Kelly had to risk getting dropped on her head and breaking a hip. I'd say they're about even.

I know the judges loved all of John's "different" characters, but they all looked the same to me, and they all looked like the one he named "Fernando". I thought that Joey did a better job at characterizing his dances.

I like to think that if JO'H was bitter about the loss that maybe he wasn't bitter about Kelly personally. That part where he picked her up was pretty cute (and I'd like to think that it was not just for the cameras on both their parts) and the only time during the dance-off that John didn't get on my nerves, and they actually had a good rapport during the ABC daytime segments they did together. It's possible that the "rivalry" and John just overplayed it a little.

Re the Larry King appearance, I had a completely different take on it. They were all joking around, no animosity was apparent, and I don't think John took center stage at all. I guess it's all about perspective. If we already don't like someone, we're going to see negativity in everything they do. It seemed to me that everyone had an equal amount of airtime, and I don't remember any griping or complaining at all. They all appeared to be very happy with the huge success of the show since none of them had expected it.

I still maintain that Kelly was everywhere on TV after she won, and was snotty on nearly every show. She did a lot of daytime - Tony Danza, Regis & Kelly, etc. It seemed she was on everything all day long, and I think I saw John maybe once. I watch and tape a lot of TV (for reasons too long to go into), and from what I saw, she was much more hungry for publicity than he was. Which is fine - after all, she was the winner and anyone in that situation would milk it for what it's worth. But she had an attitude that annoyed me every time, and my main point is that I didn't see John as being a publicity whore at all while Kelly was there every time I turned on my TV.

And big WORD to the Joey supporters. I thought he was fantastic and should have won the whole thing.

Why should he have? He earned his three 10s by doing a flawless Waltz. Again, if "10" on a scale of 1 to 10 isn't meant to denote a perfect routine (as it does in every other sport that uses the same scoring system), what number would you use if you wanted to denote said perfect routine--a 12 or a 14, maybe? Kelly should have gotten 7s or 8s at best for her freestyle, and the judges were rightly blasted for not scoring her honestly and consistently, the way they had been doing up until that point, and the inconsistent and illogical judges' score for Kelly's freestyle was what really set everyone off, not her win according to the popular vote. That result, as I said earlier, was actually conceded as a given, even by the most die-hard John fans.

As for the popular vote itself, I do think Len made an excellent point when he told a disappointed viewer, "Don't moan if you didn't phone," which is why no one really had a problem with Kelly's winning the popular vote; the John fans themselves recognized this when they finally realized that, had they not wasted votes early on by throwing charity votes to Evander, Joey, and Rachel instead of voting for John because they felt that John "didn't need the votes" (and not a few of them admitted to having done just that), John would have never landed in the bottom two with a diluted vote to begin with, and might have won the popular vote in the end as well.

Edited to clarify an ambiguous pronoun reference, because correct grammar counts, and so does correct spelling.

That would have made me very happy!


Very true.....

I disagree. I both have led and followed. Yes, leading is very difficult, but let's not minimize the skill needed to follow properly. Following is also very difficult -- and it is difficult for shared and different reasons. True leading and following both take a lot of skill.

And really in the context of this show, all the performances are highly, highly choreographed. Not only that, there were a lot of instances when John's leading was assisted by Charlotte or when Charlotte compensated for his mistakes. I do not take anything away from John, I think he is a very good beginner dancer. But comparing leading to following is like comparing apples and oranges.

Not knowing or being John, I can only speculate on why he felt the need to say that nobody deserved three tens (Actually, I'm pretty surewhat he said was even worse, that "nobody deserved one ten, let alone three" but not having it on tape I don't remember exactly). Giving him the benefit of the doubt (that he was not being a sore loser), I'd have to assume that what he meant was that nobody did a perfect job, which as I see it is to be expected since all the slebs were amateurs. So then, as good as his waltz was--and I did think it was good-- I highly doubt it was absolutely perfect just because obviously he didn't have the experience or the training for it to be completely without flaw, particularly after seeing the pros with their real partners. Ipso facto, he didn't deserve his three tens either.

Personally, I think both teams deserved both of their perfect scores within the context of this particular format.

The difference, though, is at least one of the judges (Carrie Ann, to be exact) expressly stated that John's Waltz was flawless. Not once did she, Len, or Bruno ever use that word, or any synonym thereof, in describing Kelly's freestyle during the final round of the regular competition. Also, when John said that "no one deserved a 30," he was clearly referring to the 10s that were awarded to Kelly for her freestyle dance, not to the 10s awarded to him for the Waltz. The other significant thing about that statement was that he didn't say that Kelly didn't deserve a 30 for her freestyle, but he did for his--he said that no one--including himself--deserved a 30 for the freestyle. Subsequent scores awarded in a different competition are irrelevant to the meaning of John's statement.

Edited to remove a redundant "the."

Beg to differ, legaleagle. I distinctly recall John saying that no one from their group deserved a ten, let alone three. He did not simply mean the scores given for Kelly's or his freestyle. But just the general score of 10 for any dance that any of the celebs ever did on the show. Of course, he did make that statement before he found himself being given 3 10's as well, now, didn't he?

With Kelly being the only one getting a score of 10, let alone a 30, I agree that he was clearly alluding to Kelly and Alec's performance. But, the way John said that statement also felt like he was, quite frankly, dissing K/A's performance. This was the exact part of the dance-off when I got totally turned off and utterly annoyed by JOH that he was just dead to me. Whining like a 6-year-old from a man his age (on national tv to boot) is just not appealing and is downright distasteful. YMMV, of course.

Okay, that's probably enough back and forth analyzing a single comment. Let's move along. Thanks.

I caught Oprah when I was on the treadmill yesterday and John/Charlotte opened the show with their Freestyle from the Dance-Off. I can't imagine why they chose to do that dance instead of their highly-lauded Waltz, but it was a disaster. There were all kinds of obvious mistakes and John almost dropped Charlotte twice. The good news is that their costumes were a great improvement over the spandex/velour pantsuit with cut-outs that they wore on the Dance-Off. They both wore all-black and looked very nice.

I have to give big props to Oprah because she was equally complimentary to both Kelly/Alec and John/Charlotte and she did not dwell on the controversy or ask John any leading questions about feeling vindicated. Also, she actually included Charlotte in the interview and asked her several questions. Take notes, Lisa Canning!

As for John, he seemed so much calmer and more gracious in this interview, so I presume that winning the Dance-Off has been a big weight off his shoulders and he's taking the high road now. He made some jokes that were pretty funny (he said that there was no spandex left in CA after they made his costume for the Dance-Off.) And he said that there were no hard feelings between him and Kelly. In fact, before the D-O started on Tuesday night, he took her by the shoulders and said, "Let's just enjoy this."

So, let's hope that this is the last we'll hear of this in the press. And that both Kelly and John can go back to their lives, satisfied with how much they both achieved and accomplished on DWtS. I, for one, am totally ready to move on and am looking forward to the next series.

Somehow I doubt John found leading Charlotte so difficult!

As for the supposedly flawless waltz, someone explain to me which manual John's head positions came from. They were distracting me, and it's usual the ladies' (strictly ballroom) head and neck lines that annoy me.

Anyway, at least it's over and, now that he's won his dance-off, we can move on to better things. I'm just surprised that so many TWoPpers have followed the same path I have: from supporters of JOH as celebrity dancer to totally turned off by his attitude. Before DWTS, I had never heard of him (or Kelly or Trista, for that matter), and now I hope never to hear or see him again.

I'm fairly cheerful today, because I realized that John's mouthing off at ABC and basically accusing them of being involved in a fix means he has no chance of hosting the next edition of DWTS.

Exactly. I won't try to convince people who think John's freestyle was better than Kelly's in the original finale that Kelly's was better, but at least some people thought Kelly's was better, the judges agreed, and the had no choice but to give them three tens. No huge conspiracy, just math.

I don't know what Charlotte's thinking when she choreographs her freestyles, but both were subpar for them. This "storytelling" thing that she and John go for is stupid and distracting -- just dance, and dance your strengths, which is not dancing comedy. This isn't a vaudeville competition, or Bobby Hill's Dance Fever. Stick to being funny off the floor, and elegant on it. But trying to be young, hip, sexy, funny doesn't work for them.

As for the post-show publicity, I think it was fairly even. Everywhere John went, he listed off all his new projects he's gotten b/c people love him so much now. All I recall Kelly saying is that she's staying with GH and exploring other possibilities. I didn't see Danza, but that was last week, and it was in the run-up to the Dance Off, so if Kelly had attitude, I assume it was in preparation for having to defend her title, and not b/c she's rubbing John's face in her win.

John's detractors will interpret things one way, and Kelly's detractors will interpret them another. It's just very subjective. I didn't really have an anti-John bent until after Larry King. I had never seen such poor sportsmanship by an adult (and rarely from a teenager) in my life, let alone one that has been groomed about PR. I don't recall hearing Kelly ever say anything as cutting to John as he has said about her, about her "built-in fanbase," and about how the voting system is flawed, and the show is flawed, b/c of the results. That is not cool, no matter how you cut it. And he should know there are some things better not to joke about -- comedians can gauge that very well. And joking about Kelly's big fan base is just not something to joke about (if he was joking, which I kind of think he wasn't; I think it was a barbed comment) the day after the show, on Larry King, with Kelly and Alec sitting there, having to listen to their showmate make the same comments rife on message boards and media articles. He could have taken the opportunity to put to bed some of the criticism of Kelly, but instead, he fed into it. Not cool, in my book.


Wow -- that's so big of him! John is quite the magnanimous guy. It may be a bit hard to "just enjoy this" when "this" is the culmination of weeks of bitching about her win, some of it by John, and she's having to cram dancing training in around her already hectic schedule to have to prove something she shouldn't have to prove. Yeah, no pressure!

That's what the man said, but from what I saw and heard, no one enjoyed the Dance-Off. Both sets of fans are annoyed and disgruntled, Charlotte and Alec looked like they'd rather be anywhere else, Kelly looked miserable, and John, well, whatever.

I was thinking, in the future, could ABC include some kind of clause in the celebs' contracts, that they will abide by whatever decision is made by the judges and fans and not call into question any facet of the show's rules or voting procedures? I know nothing about entertainment law, but surely, there are loyalty or non-disclosure clauses in the contracts that most reality show contestants sign? I would just hate to see a repeat of what went down this season. The controversy has created so much bad will about the show.

I agree, BrainyBlonde. I don't think anyone really enjoyed the Dance Off, save maybe John, as it was his shot at vindication. I think Charlotte and Alec were totally stressed out having to choreograph three dances, learn the dances themselves well enough to carry their celeb partners, and then teach the dances... all in three weeks. Kelly alternated between looking trepidatious, nervous, and defensive in between dances. I enjoyed the dancing again, but I would have enjoyed it more if I hadn't been fussing with voting during the show.

I don't know that ABC will have to worry about future celebs acting as John did. Celebs are usually more image-conscious and take the Joey MacIntire route of being understandably unhappy about their loss, but not discrediting the efforts of success of others. There is a certain modicum of grace that John lacked that was quite surprising to me.

Although Carrie-Ann is generally a decent judge and commentator for "Dancing with the Stars," she is not trained as a ballroom judge (there is a certification process they have to go through) or dancer. She either neglected to see or neglected to mention John's head. Of course, the judges, even Len, have neglected to see and/or neglected to mention a lot of faults from all the dancers during the course of the original series and the Dance Off.

I didn't see most of the post original media, so whatever John said or didn't say, I've only read here. But ABC did the danceoff because the president of ABC Entertainment got his head handed to him by a roomful of TV critics who had gotten tons of feedback by their readers who felt John should have won. Lots of comments, lots of press, means "hey, we'll get some ratings!" The fact it really didn't means that next time, there won't be a danceoff.

Not to imply that producers should be only focus-group driven but there was almost universal agreement by the posters here that the dance off was a bad idea. And this conclusion and the reasons given in support of it have proven to be overwhelmingly correct.

I guess there was such bravado about the high ratings DWtS had generated, they just couldn't pass up the opportunity to try and capitalize on it. Which is understandable. But rather than go with a feel-good exhibition type of show with a lot of dancing by the experts and some playful back and forth between John and Kelly to show that there were no hard feelings, they apparently chose the path of greed.

An exhition type show would have been only a one nighter. By going for another actual competion, they were able to get 2 nights out of it. I think ABC could care less about John's so-called disgruntled voters. To me it was just a convenient ploy around which to build another episode.

I think John was used but to his discredit he allowed himself to be. IMO, the producers went out of their way to elicit his bitter comments and to make sure he looked as spandexed awful as possible. And Kelly was again made into the little bloody-toed wonder child.

John may have been more than a little overinvested in prevailing but he is also a very witty with self-deprecating charm type of guy. None of that was apparent here. What? Did it all of a sudden somehow disappear? IMO, all of his wit was edited out and suffocated under ridiculous white suiting and blue spandex.

They all came out of the original show in a position of strength. ABC, all of the contestants (with the exception of Trista) and all of the pros. The show and everyone associated with it had generated goodwill and a certain mystique.

But with the dance-off, I think both John and ABC took a hit. Mostly John. Kelly will probably be offered a role in nighttime so she'll be the actual winner and by January, maybe the negative danceoff memories will have faded and the audience will again be pumped for another DWtS. But our beloved John should probably start doing some mop up damage control. Although, hopefully, he too will eventually come out of all of this a winner.

*Exactamundo, culturevulture73*

So I'm finally watching the Dance Off. Here are some comments on the judges' parting comments.

Len on John: Your hold, your posture, your elegance was great.
Len on Kelly: Your hip action, your rhythm, fantastic.

What is interesting here, of course, is what was not said. Len is right, of course, but what he didn't say is that one can have great posture but turn their head the wrong way. One can have hip action and rhythm, but can still be off time and use their legs in a sort of crouchy manner.

Carrie-Ann on Kelly: You are you.
Carrie-Ann on John: You bring characters to life, but character was overdone a bit.

Once again, I find Carrie-Ann to be on target. Even though she's not trained/certfied as a ballroom judge, I think she does know what fundamental movement and performance skills look like. Kelly did always come out dancing as herself, and I think that appealed to a lot of people.

Bruno on John: Beautiful turns, lovely line, great rise and fall.
Bruno on Kelly: Sometimes you're a bit nervous, you didn't quite finish your lines. You did incredibly well through the series.

Bruno's comment on line brings to mind something about the difference between Standard/Smooth and Latin dancing. With Standard/Smooth, I think the eye is more drawn to the overall picture, with emphasis on the lines from the waist up (back length and posture) and the lines the arms make in the dance hold. With Latin, I think the eye is more drawn to the leg lines. (Or at least mine is.) I've mentioned before that Kelly wasn't producing strong leg lines (compare her dancing to Edyta's). She looked a little crouchy when she was actually dancing. Some of her tricks (that split lift in the dance-off freestyle) looked nice, but she was inconsistent and sometimes her legs wouldn't be straight or her feet wouldn't be pointed and she'd look a bit stumpy. It's interesting that in the main series she interviewed that she was short and stumpy like an Ooompa Loompa. Part of that has to do with her basic carriage. If you look at Charlotte and Edyta just standing there, you'll see that they are long and stretched through their entire torsos, that their torsos are perfectly balanced and positioned over their pelvises, and that
their chests are lifted without being thrust out. Kelly has yet to achieve all this. It's not easy to retrain your body to do something like re-learn how to stand (let alone dance), and she had so much to deal with what with learning all those tricks and choreography. And she only had a couple of months to work on this, after all.

As far as John goes, I'm reminded of a comment that a former US Professional Smooth champion told me once on a coaching session: on this level (which at the time was pretty much like John's level), "I'm looking for three things: that you stand up straight, that you dance on time, and that you look good." By "looking good" he meant that you are having fun, don't look nervous or reserved, that sort of thing. John achieved that, not perfectly (who could be perfect with just a summer of training), but as a satisfying attempt.

In the end, both dancers did give satisfing attempts, and the difference came down to Standard/Smooth versus Latin, fundamentals versus flashy tricks, technique versus performance, personality differences, sex appeal differences, and personal taste.

My personal take is that John was the better dancer, and that may have really been because Charlotte was the better teacher. Her routines for John during the regular series were much more focussed on the basic figures of the each dance, with a few flashy moves thrown in. This enabled her to concentrate on developing some fundamental technique in John's dancing. Alec focussed on the trickier moves -- I noticed his samba with Edyta had all the same moves he taught Kelly, and I've pointed out here before that his Paso Doble had a lot of the same moves that the world champions have used in their showdance -- which is a gamble that paid off with greater performance excitement and audience appeal.

My own dance training comes into play (or gets in the way) when evaluating this: as someone who was not allowed to do the fancy stuff until I had developed some skill with the basics, I see what Alec did with Kelly as a lot of short-cut flash stuff, and feel that her actual dance ability was not developed. The pinnacle of this was that dance off quickstep, where there was very little quickstep at all in the choreography, and not a lot of dancing on Kelly's part at all.

Kelly's Latin performances were more exciting than John's Latin performances, and I think several things brought this about. First, Alec could do all kinds of fancy tricks with Kelly that John just couldn't do. She's small, he's leading, that's two major advantages right there. Secondly, Kelly (as Carrie-Ann pointed out) danced as herself, whereas John got hammy with the characters. However, looking at both dancers' basic techique, I thought that John looked awkward and a bit flat footed when he moved (see his dance-off rumba) and Kelly looked bow-legged and wobbly. Neither one was really all that wonderful executing the Latin dances. I think that John's Standard/Smooth dancing was a lot better than Kelly's, but that Kelly's overall Latin performances were definitely better than John's. The deciding factor for me was that the difference between John's Standard/Smooth and Kelly's was a lot greater than the difference between Kelly's Latin and John's.

edited to put the quote I was agreeing with in the post

So well put! I was cringing and trying not to cover my eyes through both of John and Charlotte's freestyles.

If they had insisted on some sort of storytelling device, I wish it had at least played to their strengths. Maybe something like starting up at the top of the stairs hanging onto what appear to be subway straps with both of them dressed in business suits and carrying briefcases.

Then Charlotte catches sight of John, apparently likes what she sees and plays out a fantasy. She opens her briefcase, takes out, I don't know, a tiara maybe, places it atop her head (or maybe skip the tiara -- she just removes the clasp from her upswept hair and allows her hair to fall to her shoulders) and steps out of her rip away dressed-for-blasting-through-the-glass-ceiling power suit. Underneath is some type of beautiful chifonny gown with a long flowing skirt that either somehow has been pinned up or she pulls a long wraparound skirt out of her briefcase, whirls around, floats down the stairs and then beckons up to John to join her.

John seems to momentarily lack confidence about doing this, so she dances back up the stairs, flings his briefcase aside and leads him down the stairs by his power tie.

And then he takes her into his arms and voila they dance together beautifully and elegantly. None of this straining for crude humor stuff that doesn't work for them.

And I too missed seeing more of Joey during the danceoff show. I thought he invaluable to making the show the success it had been. He was one of my favorites!

Now, there's a scenario I love--can TPTB please hire calli as a choreographer for next season? :)

Videos from the first night are up on Raphael Pungin's blog (link somewhere not too far upthread).

calli, that was beautiful.

I wonder if the producers had any influence over what the pros put together for their stars? 'Cause I've seen other "demonstration" (show dance) numbers that Charlotte has done, and none of them were like those Freestyles! Or maybe it was all just a chance for her & John to try something completely different?

Okay, looking forward to next series...

Other than making the consequences of the voting system clearer to everyone (so that it doesn't take someone like Sgt Becktar to figure it all out for us), what would we like to see next series? I'll start:

* a different hostess than Lisa Canning. Even if it's Lisa again.

* let the pros talk a little more on the interviews.

* have there be demonstration clips from the pros so that people can see the ideal of what everyone is shooting for.

* here's one that I don't think has been mentioned yet: more group competitive numbers, so the dancers can be evaluated side-by-side doing the same dance at the same time -- like they did with that Viennese Waltz that time.

I'm no expert, but on the second time watching the dance-off (yeah, I'm that bored), I still don't know why Len was ripping on Kelly so hard. I thought her quickstep was awesome. It's a classic ballroom dance, and I didn't think it would be her style, but she totally made it her own (or rather, Alec did) and all of her footwork was spot on. She didn't miss a beat. And you could tell she was having fun with it!

And though I loved their first freestyle, their second freestyle was much cleaner. Len criticized them for not doing as many lifts and tricks, but that, in my opinion is where K&A usually get in over their head. I think Alec is too big and strong and Kelly is too teeny and he usually ends up whipping her around out of control.

So, yeah, I'm pissed John won, it was a close contest, but he was being such a pissy crybaby about it.

(De-lecture-fying...my zeal is more about sharing knowledge than trying to change opinions, but I've already posted three times today anyway, so I'll just chill out now. ;-) )

The tone of this thread is getting kind of lecture-y again, with a lot of "I'm sorry, but your opinion is wrong" going on. Even if you are an "expert" on ballroom dancing, you're going to have to let other people disagree with you about what's good and what's bad, period. (This is not directed at any one person; there's a fair amount of it going on.)

The topic is the show, and people are going to disagree about what they like. Remember, it really is just a show about celebrities dancing around. It shouldn't be contentious, you know? Thanks.

I second all of your recommendations, and add a couple of my own:

* leave the other couples in the competition for longer, maybe for the whole thing. That would give us a longer time to evaluate improvement.

* have the scores be cumulative or at least partially cumulative. I think what got so many people about the 1st finale results was that they felt that John had been better overall throughout the series, regardless of whether he was best that final night or not. To me, the winner should be the best overall.

* have different awards. Most improved, best technique, best Latin, best Standard, most fun to watch.

* have a demo where the celebs dance together! It would have been interesting (at least to me) to see how Joey would dance with Kelly and John with Rachel. And heh, Evander in a train wreck with Trista.

* can Lisa and get rid of the kiss-and-cry room interviews, or whatever you call that

* better music. Please people! It needs to be something enjoyable to dance to.

* rotate partners? What would John have learned differently from Edyta than he did from Charlotte? And Kelly from Louis?

I definitely feel like they should do the same dances on the same night with a mix of Latin and Ballroom.

It was always difficult for me to say "oh John's better than Kelly" when they were doing separate things. If all couples do the same dance it would be easier to compare.

Show the audience a demo and give a TRUE breakdown of what one should be looking for in these dances. I don't know the difference between a samba and a paso doble. And telling me it's a bull and a matador? Doesn't help.

OK, I haven't posted since the results show so, first here are my thoughts about that:

I'm dissappointed (surprised?). But most of my dissappointment is a direct result of seeing Kelly's reaction. She looked so hurt and I felt really bad for her. It must suck to have won something and have it taken from you, especially in this stupid way. I wouldn't have minded so much if JOH won but watching KM visibly trying to hold her emotions in as she graciously answered Canning's question bummed me out even more and then watching that Access Hollywood interview where she got emotional and dissappeared for 20 minutes to compose herself proved my suspicions. It also fueled my Suxy induced dillusions because it happened right after Alec said it was the last time they were going to dance together. It was too much for her! Me too, Kel ;) I'll miss the Suxy. I'll be waiting eagerly for the DVD - I wanna see that football helmet (and more ass slapping). Sigh, maybe we'll see KM supporting her suxy partner by being in the audience on the 2nd season.

Off topic rant: Honestly, why do they insist on interviewing the loser at any competition? If I was a loser at some game I played, the last thing I'd want to do is do an interview where I have to be gracious. Oh well, nevermind.

I agree with everyone who said that this should've been just an exhibition. Heck, it wasnt too late, after Katrina happening, they could've changed the slated dance-off to an exhibition to raise money for charity (the "winner" being the one who got more $ per vote without really crowning an official winner, but we'd all know who "won" anyway). ABC sux - no "y" for you, dumbass. I mean, the reason DWTS was so popular was because of the lack of bitter competetiveness(sp?) as KM said on Larry King.

Thanks Miss Ali for being a diligent moderator - I thought the Did-she-deserve-10s argument was put to rest long ago. Hopefully this dance-off will finally put that to rest.

I laughed at the post comparing JOH to Bobby "I'll stand on my cutting board because I'm a stupid idiot and all I'm good for is barbecueing" Flay. But as funny as that is, please don't insult JOH that way :)

ITA with the no suxy for Edyta. She's quite sexy as well but sorry. Also, seeing her standing next to KM, I couldn't help but think that she's like a super sized version of KM. KM is like her mini me. Maybe the lack of suxy between real life bf, Alec has to do with that same phenomenom about actors who are real life couples, appearing on-screen together.

Watching Alec and Charlotte dance with professionals was like watching a bird fly out of it's cage. Also, when Bergeron said that bit about Charlotte trading in her dance partner (JOH) for another, I thought he meant she was going to trade partners with Alec! Meaning she was going to dance with Kelly. I was like, "How? Wha-? Who's gonna lead?" I know, stupid but I have brain farts from time to time. Now that I think about it, it isn't such a bad thought :)

What I'd like to see next season, because I'm willing to give this show a 2nd chance:

First, I can't believe I sat there for 29 minutes watching complete garbage - I think DWTS just trumped American Idol in their waste of a time results show. Please, if this is any indication of what results shows will be like next season, don't do it because I won't be watching. The Jaywalking style segment about audience favorites? What a cheap ass segment. Stop trying to be AI for christ's sake - it's what made you better. Oh, great, now I'm talking to a show.

Keep Canning. She amuses me and it's so damn consistent. It gives us something else to talk, er... snark about the next day :) I don't want a hostess who only kisses the stars' asses. It's part of what made the summer show so great.

More professionals dancing together to demonstrate how it should be done before the stars butcher it.

Doing the same dance on the same night so we can compare.

I like the idea of no elimination and just crowning the winner in the end. It could be a tabulation of all their scores and weekly audience votes throughout the show's run.

Voters should be able to vote for the actual dance they saw on the same dang night. Idiot! [/Napoleon Dynamite]

Just stick with the entertaining and making the Gramps, teens and adults laugh instead of turning the show into another AI clone. Don't get me wrong, I like AI but the dance-off was like the 2nd season of Joe Millionaire. The first was great, the 2nd - sucked ass. Who knows, maybe DWTS the summer phenomenon was just a fluke (mainly due to timing and casting).

DWTS, stop it already with the identity crisis. Just be yourself - the one I loved so much during the summer. (Great, I'm talking to the show again. I think I'll go now lol)

ETA: Does anyone else find it ironic that JOH won this one because of fan voting when one of his gripes for losing was because of KM's "unfair" advantage over having this so-called built in rabid fan base who will vote for her no matter what? I hope this shows him and others who feel this way, that those built in fans weren't the only ones voting for her the last time - that there are actual people out there who can be objective even, gasp!, rabid soap fans.

Interesting, zigelettospal, because seeing the judges' comments written out, I realized they were more insightful (and more oblique) than I had noticed from just watching them.

I'm sure, btw, that I'm not the only person who looks forward to your posts. I find them thought-provoking and not at all lecture-y.

Most people seem to agree with you (I think I'm remembering correctly) that Kelly's relative strength is Latin, and John excels in Smooth/Standard. I also think that, in their areas of strength, John does the basic techniques of his area (S/S) better than Kelly does the basic techniques in hers.

But what about John's freestyle? Kelly goes for the showy and athleticism and, maybe not a lot of dance technique, but as Carrie Ann says, she does what she does.

In the Danceoff, I felt John was competing on Kelly's turf--going for the showy and athletic, as well as for his own touch of comical and (maybe) sexy--and that was a big mistake. Yes, it was difficult but...he wasn't smooth on the lifts and the choreography wasn't sexy or amusing (like the crotch reach)...it was often very tacky--just like their summer Freestyle.

re: voting. John was already very popular in summer. I voted the maximum number for John in summer, but I didn't vote for anyone this time. If I'd voted at all it would have been for Kelly. Its hard for me to imagine that the final dancing actually would change the results that much--or that John's dancing and comments on this last show would have won him substantially more fans. A puzzling outcome.

I hope they get rid of the fishiness of the phone scoring (and get contestants who can restore the lighthearted tone) before the new season starts.

I forgot to mention that the best thing about the finale was at the very end when the credits were rolling and John picked Kelly up, who I thought was at first running away from him :P, and he twirled her around while she stretched out her arms and tilted her head back. And it was so sweet seeing Alec and Charlotte watching on in delight.

See, that's what made the show so good, the sweetness of the stars and dancers and the lack of underhandedness that permeated the dance-off. And to make it worse, they friggin cut the best part short! The bastards. DWTS/ABC so wanted to promote this so-called rivalry and bad blood between KM and JOH, that they weren't even allowed to dance together (both couples dancing together for 5 seconds doesn't count).

I kind of doubt that the next season will have better or equal stars. Meaning stars that aren't in it for the money and fame (via publicity and such). The first season of most reality shows, I find are often better than the following seasons because in the first season, the contestants aren't as knowledgable and are more innocent, the show is less if not underhanded - they're there for the most part to actually gain whatever it is that show is promoting. In this case, a dance trophy and pride. There aren't contestants who deliberately trying to amp up the ratings with outrageous stunts. The following seasons of most reality shows become more extreme and less watchable to me because usually all I see are fame whores ready to do anything to be the talk of the town.

Maybe DWTS is different because it's contestants are "stars" and there really is no prize. Not! This is true of the first season when really, it was a risky career move. Why would any star of any list subject themselves to the cheesyness of a stupid dance show (my first thoughts when seeing promos over the summer). And we all saw that none of these contestants were looking to be more famous - it was to learn to dance and prove something to themselves. They actually had more to lose. And it was nice to see that they weren't all egomaniacs throwing tantrums and getting bitchy with their partners. Well, except for Trista and no one even remembers she was on the show. Ugh, it pains me to say that I think we're going to get more Tristas than Joeys next season.

I miss that fun summer show.

I did it, I actually did it! I tuned in to the 1st dance-off show, determined to enjoy the dancing & not care what the outcome was. I didn't even watch last Thursday to hear who "won" the dance-off, I heard who won on Saturday morning at my sons soccer game!

Don't get me wrong, I got a little happy to hear that John had won, but I'd have been fine hearing that Kelly won again. I just don't know that any of it means anything (including who was 'more popular' with the fans, or who 'danced better').


Since I come from a golfing family, I've got this perspective on that issue:
-Golfers tend to have a lot of money. And they're people who love to think that the sport they love can be combined with charitable giving, so that they can kill two birds with one stone, as it were. They can be self-serving (spending lots of time on the golf course), business-serving (golfing with business partners, bonding), and also charity-serving (giving to those less fortunate, in one way or another) all at once.
And please don't misunderstand, I am not saying any of these things in a necessarily negative/derogatory manner.
-If someone can combine their loves/hobbies/careers with their charitable works, then all are served. And perhaps they get people to give (or to give more $$) than they would have otherwise. It works the same way for the telethons, the rock star events (for 9/11 victims, for farm families, for flood victims/survivors, etc).

Finally...
My husband HATES to golf, but he'll do it with his friends (ex pro athletes, financial traders, etc) for charitable events...because it's a way for him to spend time with friends he doesn't get to see all that much, and to help people out, too.

I also have family members who have cancer (as do most of us, I imagine), so whatever monies can be raised for cancer research/cures? I support & am thankful for. I don't really care if it's Chess Players for Cancer.

I have rewatched all the performances from the dance-off now up on Pungin's blog. My untrained opinions regarding the two celebrity contestants:

Kelly's cha-cha-cha and John's waltz were both very enjoyable. As for the rest, meh.

Meanwhile, I have watched Johnathan's and Anna's Foxtrot about five times now, and I am simply mesmerized each time. Nice choice of music, wonderful vocals, beautiful choreography and technique. Simply phenomenal.

NOW, I want to dance.

The only thing on my wish list for season 2 is please, please, please show us more of the experts dancing together.

Wait till Rafael Pungin puts up the one by Charlotte and Nick. She should definitely still be dancing, and not just on DWTS.

Well, Charlotte's no longer competing by her own choice. She had been competing since she was a little kid and retired prematurely, in my mind.

Still, IMHO, Jonathan and Anna's foxtrot was better than Nick and Charlotte's routine--more interestingly choregraphed...I was disappointed by Nick and Charlotte's routine because I thought it was kind of one-dimensional, though they are both excellent dancers.

Still, I am fascinated by the reaction to these two routines by non-dancers especially.. During the main run of the show, many posters on this board said they really weren't that interested in high quality dancing but were watching because of the celebs. Maybe, though, an appreciation for the dancing itself is starting to emerge.

I think the producers made a mistake in not occasionally featuring the pros themselves demonstrating how it should be done during the series. Maybe they'll be more of that next season.

I absolutely agree! And, like you, I hope that they include more of this next season.

I'm so curious to see which 'stars' they get for next season.

Stern did a mini-rant today about O'Hurley and DWTS. (Stern is a Kelly Monaco fan. No need to wonder why.)

He seemed to be particularly disturbed by the story JOH told on Oprah regarding a married couple of 70-year olds who emailed him about how they are now too decrepit to dance together like they did when they were young, but they would sit together and hold hands while they watched the series on TV and cry. I have to agree with Howard, it was just a bit much to be believed. But it is perfectly in keeping with John's cheesy nature, so whoever came up with the story for him to tell certainly matched it up well with his overall style. I didn't see the Oprah appearance at all, so perhaps someone else who watched it can give a different perspective.

Meanwhile, Stern mentioned that Kelly would not bash John on the air when she appeared on his show, but off the air, she did tell him that she thought John was going overboard with his whining about the finals. (I don't recall his exact words, so I'm trying to paraphrase without exaggerating the comments.) At any rate, I really don't blame Kelly for feeling that way, and respect that she never escalated the feud in the media.

I don't know where I read this but I read that the day after the dance-off finale, Kelly went back to work at GH and Alec and Edyta went to Florida. When I read that I was like "doh!" because Alec went on vaycay without his beloved Kelly - and with Edyta no less.

But I read this article that Alec and Edyta were in Florida judging a local Dancing with the Stars and they also danced a few numbers. I'm so relieved, Alec was just there to work - not like the "work" he and Kelly do, heh ;)

Considering that this is Howard Stern we're talking about, I would take his rant and his report of Kelly's remarks with a salt lick the size of the Bonneville Salt Flats. Howard Stern's credibilty gap, IMO, can best be measured in light-years.

Yes, I so agree. That performance and having it available for re-watching made the whole dance-off worthwhile.

I'm also glad that John and Charlotte's waltz has gotten a positive reception. Unfortunately for me, it was mostly this monochromatic blur. I couldn't tell if there were actually 2 people dancing or if that was just some white sheet flapping in the breeze off a clothesline in say maybe the Amish countryside where clotheslines rule!

Great call to have both John and Charlotte dressed in the exact same color. Another great call was having their dance begin with them scrunched up next to each other in an intimate reclining position. How do you build romantic tension from there?

I know that when the first scene in a movie is a couple waking up next to each other, I'm really captivated and beside myself with excitement by then getting to observe them sharing a kiss over the morning breakfast table.

I just had a revelation re-watching some of the performances. I wasn't a big John O'Hurley fan because I like him. (Although he's good and everything.)

I'm totally in love with Charlotte.

Then, Argillus, is there any possibility that you might be able to provide a link to the dance the exceptionally talented, always gracious and quite wonderful Charlotte did with Nick? Raphael Pungin does not have it up on his site and there are some, myself included, who may not have had the opportunity to have seen it during its original broadcast.