Djork:
A back walkover is not a lift.  It's gymnastics.  Lifts are fine in show dance as long as they don't take over the routine.  Dancers still have to spend time on the ground attempting quality movement and getting their weight over their feet and using their knees and ankles.  Lifts are not a part of ballroom or dancesport because you don't have to be able to dance to do them.  Mostly you need muscle tone/strength and courage (and maybe some knowledge of physics).  Mostly you need to be an acrobat rather than a dancer. 



Barkley:
What I saw was that hard work pays off if the producers and so-called judges finagle it for you to win. Kelly should have worked a little harder at learning to dance instead of just lifts.

Finally, IMO John's Latin was better than Kelly's Standard.

Sorry, the quote box and my reply are reversed.

Kelly's costumes were the teeniest once Edyta was out of the competition, I agree. I think that part of that is that Kelly had the body and petite size to pull them off, and it worked with their latin numbers. It would have looked kinda odd if Charlotte were wearing skimpy clothes while dancing with John, who was always very covered up (poor guy -- he must have been so hot in that garb and the lights and the dancing!).

I thought latin dancing is about sexuality and passion and seduction. Like Barkley said, other couples were doing "overt" and sexual moves. Most of the suxiness of Kelly and Alec, to me, was in the way they looked at each other, not any gratuitous groping.

As for Hef mansion parties, tons of celebrities never affiliated with the magazine go to them. It's become much more mainstream. Kelly has never mentioned or endorsed Playboy during her participation with DWTS, though, so I don't think it's terribly relevant to whether or not she's a bad influence to the young people watching her dance on TV.

I don't fault John for not attempting risky lifts, but I do think he left the door wide open for Kelly/Alec when he didn't fill his freestyle up with MORE of something. More dancing, more footwork, more whatever. There's a middle ground b/w doing Alec-level lifts and standing around. I don't care that he didn't do the fancy lifts, but I don't understand why he had the gaping intro of nothingness. It was cute, but it wasn't difficult.

I totally agree with you that the male stars are at a disadvantage, having to learn to lead and whatnot. But, I will say it isn't necessarily that easy being the "follower," and having to do everything backwards and in spikey heels (right, Ginger?). Hee.

How did the producers and judges finagle the win? B/c Kelly won by the audience vote, which the judges, other than usually endorsing John, had nothing to do with.

I saw a lot of dancing in Kelly's freestyle performance. I loved her chacha spins (or whatever they're called) and their side-by-side work. She also did some lifts. So she substituted lifts for the part of the performance John was standing still. What a slacker, hehe!

I love that we're still talking about the show!

One of them, she was balanced on poor Alex's head, which, AFAIK, is not part of the lift...

I can see this being like the Russians vs. the Canadians from 2002 that we're still hashing out on the skating lists. There is no good to be gained by a danceoff, so they should both do an exhibition to start the next season, as someone upthread suggested, and John should host. I'd even take Kelly as replacing Lisa Canning.

I just wanted to say that I have watched "Dancing with the Stars" from the beginning and I posted a few times on this thread. I have been out of town for a bit, but I was pleasantly surprised to see that this thread is still going strong long after the show has ended. I love that there are people out there who are equally amused with the show as I am and are willing to discuss it!

However, I am a bit bothered by the beating Kelly Monaco has taken in the media for winning a dance contest. Like many of you, I received my copy of TV Guide in the mail the other day and I was shocked to see that half the letters page was devoted to people decrying the outcome of the show, calling it "fixed", and disparaging Kelly for being a "soap star" and acting too sexy. Right now I am wondering if it would have made a difference if all the people who are angry at the outcome had voted during the show. I could be wrong, but it seems that people are suddenly shocked and angry that a show where HALF the total score is devoted to online/phone voting might be a popularity contest. I don't know if people did not understand how the scoring worked, or they were not interested in voting themselves, but I do not know why all the people who would rather have had John/Charlotte win (and it seems that they are a fairly large number!) did not vote and help propel them to victory. It is also strange that even though we use the exact same voting system as the Australian version of "Dancing with the Stars", ours is apparently flawed somehow.

As it stands, Kelly/Alec won the popular vote and the contest, and therefore it baffles me that Kelly Monaco must constantly have to justify her win. Instead of being able to enjoy her winning a dance contest - a contest teeming with awesome costumes and ridiculous music that introduced many people like me who had never watched a dancesport competition before to the sport - she has to spend all her defending herself. I felt so bad reading about her being slammed by the reporters at the ABC press junket. Why can't she just enjoy her win instead of being the symbol of some vast conspiracy by ABC and having her past and her costumes thrown in her face like some scarlet woman? Can't we all just enjoy the dancing and get along?!? ;-)

In order to step away from that dead horse, I thought it would be funny for us all to look back on the early days of the competition. After the first night, PittsburghDiva wrote:



Hee. Remember how stiff and awkward Kelly and Alec seemed around each other in the beginning? How quickly things change. We were quite young and innocent then. I am quite glad that the rumba changed it all around and initiated the "dance of the forbidden suxy lurve" between the two of them. Man, I really am 12...

Aww. I really hope ABC releases DWTS on DVD. I am really afraid they won't! And I totally didn't pay any attention to Kelly and Alec (sigh!) until way late in the season -- boo!

Dance is usually about love, amour whatnot... Latin is more atuned to the sensuality, flirting, seduction, passion aspect of love -- but you don't need to be a rocket scient -- er, I mean Playboy playmate, to be able to convey these emotions. Yes there is a broad spectrum, but the more dance experience you have, the greater your ability to tap into the more extremes of expression... there are dozens and dozens of competitors vying for the attention of only a handful of judges several feet away -- happy, content love usually does not cut it, kinda boring. Sometimes you need oomph and drama! We actually joke around, make names for, and even rehearse, the different sorts of 'love' you might see -- there's agression, animalistic lust, orgasmic heat, tortured pain, enraptured sadness, naughty teasing, tender eroticism, playful banter -- dancers try to pull off any one of these emotions interchangeably depending on the music and style they're dancing. But it's really just performance. If anything, Kelly's acting background is what helped her.

I don't really remember anything overtly sexual in any of the moves... barkley did enumerate quite well the various intances that can be considered sexual, and all the couples are pretty guilty of that though they are not at all far from norm in Latin. Lol, Charlotte did leap onto John and straddled him, legs around his waist then arched her back, and Rachel mostly had her leg wrapped around Jonathan, not to mention he split open her legs...

barkley I rememder Edyta bumping & grinding on Evander, but when the heck did our love birds bumped & grind? What did this shipper miss out on? I think anytime they ever moved their hips together they have considerable distance apart, no contact whatsoever. For me, Kelly & Alec were most erotic when they would gaze at each other, when she would caress his face and when he nuzzled her hair -- totally PG-13, but when you have chemistry, can give a semblance of an R-rating, hee! Seriously, how the heck does hair sniffing raise the temperature of one's apartment?!?

ETA rumbawalks you can try typing the open & close tags: [quote_]Quoted text hear.[/quote_] but without the underscore_. Hope that works.

hmmmm, now that you mention it... I don't think they ever really did bump and grind like Edyta and Evander or J/C. I'll have to go back and watch the episodes again. (Thank you TiVo). There might have been contact in the last Samba after the coffee grinder move. Kelly and Alec had me after the first 3 bars of the Rumba. Alec did an amazing job with that song - he had the mood of it down perfectly.

Sleeping Beauty, Word to your entire post.

djork:

Thanks for the help with the quotations. ;-)

I believe the producers and judges engineered her win. First the judges (CI and BT) were unduly harsh in their comments to her on the first three shows. Even though she danced badly, real judges would never have spoken to her in that manner on or off TV. I believe the judges were asked/told to treat her rudely. The unfairness grated and galvanized many who then voted for her out of pity. On the ABC message boards, I read many posts where her soap fans and her new DWTS fans cited this as the reason they voted for her.

Aside: I've read interviews where Kelly is quoted as saying that Seinfeld had more viewers than GH, and therefore she didn't have an advantage in the fan department. However, the networks execs have also been quoted as saying that her fans pretty much keep her at the top of the audience vote every week. One said something to the effect that her fans tended to vote more frequently. Some of her fans on the ABC message board bragged that they voted for her more than 50 - 80 times per week, some even resorting to borrowing cell phones from friends and voting from pay phones. Seems to me that the sympathy vote ploy worked.

Second, I believe the strap on her Samba costume was sabotaged. All costumes that have been made for me by professionals have been very well sewn. Seamstresses who make a living sewing for dancers know where the stress points are and how to sew straps on securely. Usually it's the homemade costumes that fall apart. Doesn't say much for Designs to Shine. I would never buy a costume from them if I thought they couldn't sew a strap on properly.

Third, the judges penalized Joey for a Foxtrot that wasn't fox enough for them (I disagree), yet gave Kelly high marks for a Paso that Alec didn't deliver. If the mute button had been on, I wouldn't have recognized it as a Paso. There is no hip action in Paso. I believe the producers wanted to get rid of Joey and keep John, so they asked/told the judges to mark him low so that his audience vote couldn't save him.

Fourth, the three dramatic tens for Kelly so that she would beat John by one point in the judges' vote and the lame excuse that they had to give her 10's because they had already given John 9's. Not very smart for three so-called professional judges with experience. Especially because up until the free dance, John was "the one to beat". It made me wonder how the order of dance had been decided. I believe the producers wanted her to win the judges' votes because they thought it would look bad for ABC if John won by the judges, yet Kelly won only the audience vote.

My fifth reason is that I didn't see Kelly dance better than John in the free dance. I didn't judge the choreography, only their posture and how they moved and whether or not they were being carried by the pro. Following is not a passive role, but rather a responsive role. The follower has to actively follow and not be dragged or pushed. John did a better job of leading than Kelly did of following.

Perhaps the producers don't think of this as dishonest; they perhaps see it as merely following a story line. This was the first reality show that I had followed only because it was ballroom dancing, and I wasn't expecting any more dishonesty here than I would at any competition judged by certified/qualified judges, Len in particular. Now I see that the judges were actors, and perhaps the participants were as well. IMO, neither the judges nor the show has any credibility left to warrant either a dance-off or a second season as a reality show.

I doubt you'll ever see any prize money to charity on this show. ABC is safe in creating and following "story lines" as long as no money is involved. Once money is involved, the authorities watch more closely for irregularities.

Kelly would have won with or without the judges' vote. That groundwork was laid in weeks one to five with the help of the judges.

IMO, Kelly should be proud of her fan base and keep taking dance lessons.

I think she'll be justifying and defending the win for as long as people remember this show because she won a popularity contest, but not the dance contest for many of us. John, Rachel and Joey could outdance her any day and did. I'm not surprised that the reporters slammed her and ABC. When you win something the way she did, don't expect to enjoy it. I just would rather that people critique her dancing rather than her costumes, which were nothing out of the ordinary, or her past, which is also nothing out of the ordinary for starlets.

Sleeping Beauty:
DWTS was not an accurate representation of Dancesport. In Dancesport, both partners are of equal caliber and can, therefore, do much more in the way of dancing. PBS used to televise the Ohio Star Ball, but hasn't for a few years. The Snowball (Vancouver) was televised a couple of years ago on WTN (I think), but wasn't renewed because of low viewership. Ditto for various other attempts to televise Dancesport. However, I have heard that this year's Ohio Star Ball will televised probably in Jan or Feb. But it won't be the same as DWTS because you won't feel as invested in the dancers even though it will be far better dancing.

If you have ever seen an episode of the BBC version, the judges were even harsher there than almost anything they said on the American version. Len, Bruno, and the other two were brutal over there - to the point of giving one of the couples a "1" on their first dance. There was no instruction needed, it was par for the course with this show and for at least 2 of the judges.

There's an awful lot of things in the conspiracy theory that had to fall exactly into place in order to make it work, but maybe the simplest explanation is that people just liked Kelly better and John's fans didn't vote as much.

Charlotte also had a wardrobe malfunction, except her's occurred during dress rehearsal, so I think that Kelly's costume being sabotaged is suspect at best. It would be pretty hard to sabotage a costume so that it broke at exactly the right moment - during the live countdown immediately before the dance started, because that's when the first strap broke - not during the split move as is commonly thought. After all, it had to make it all the way through dress rehearsal and most of the show before it snapped - while she was standing still. The costumers were working on an extremely tight schedule with 8 female costumes to make for that week alone (since there were 2 dances that night).



It was never meant to be an accurate representation of Dancesport. It was meant to be Dancing with the Stars - a popularity contest with some dancing.

After DWTS, I wouldn't trust the British, Australian, Polish, Danish or any other versions of the show, especially if Len and Bruno are "judging". My one piece of advice for ABC is if you're going to fix it for a celeb to win, pick one that can dance.


I believe the costume was sabotaged after the dress rehearsal and before the performance. The point was for the strap to break sometime during the broadcast and not necessarily during the countdown.


Professionals have no excuse for shoddy sewing. Chrisanne probably wouldn't do the show for free, so they offered it to Designs to Shine for the exposure. ;-) pun intended.



Of course it wasn't. I just didn't expect it to be so far off the mark. But the good side is if we all agree it was just a popularity contest, then Kelly doesn't need to be defensive when reporters challenge her. She can just say, "Yeah, I know it doesn't mean I can dance. It just means I have loyal fans."



I think ABC had contigency plans to make it all work somehow.

I can't see ABC going to this much trouble to prop a soap star who isn't even one of the leads on her show.



I think to a lot of people it was exactly what they thought and expected - a fun summer show that didn't involve eating bugs with pretty, pretty costumes.

Just wait and see how much more you'll see her on your screen. But she won't be on mine because I intend to avoid her - not because I have any opinion about her acting ability, but because of the negative connotations she now carries. Some in entertainment believe that any publicity is good publicity, but I don't subscribe to that view.

Just teasing - but do you mean that the bugs were wearing pretty, pretty costumes? ;-)

Anytime a show airs where the audience votes counts for half and serves as the tiebreaker, it's a popularity show, regardless of whether it's Dancing With the Stars, Cooking With the Stars, Discussing Physics With the Stars, Naval Gazing With the Stars, Defusing a Nuclear Bomb With the Stars, Playing Tiddlywinks With the Stars or Which Stars Are Most Fuckable.

I'm glad Kelly won. I'm more glad she posed for Playboy and that I have that issue. I'm even more glad that John O'HeavyMcHurley is bent out of shape over the results. A pox on him and his sissyfied bitching over the results.

I've never watched General Hospital, but voted for Kelly from Day One of the competition. To me, she was the sexiest...and that's what I based my vote on. I couldn't care less about the intricacies of the rumba, foxtrot, electric bougaloo or whatever.

As discussed above, Ashley and Alec were given non-Paso songs to choreograph to, and both had to implement samba moves to deal with the poor music selection. If anything, the couple who got the actual paso song should be considered to have some sort of favoritism by TPTB, b/c everyone recongizes what song the paso should be danced to. Plus, it made it impossible for J/A and K/A to do straight up pasos with the tempos/beats of their songs.

That's the way it's supposed to work -- fans call in and support their favorite couple to ensure that couple remains on the show! There's a difference b/w a lot of people seeing this show and voting for her and this "vast built-in fanbase conspiracy" that is going on. I never knew Kelly from Adam before this show began (or O'Hurley, actually). Of my group of 4-5 friends who watched the show together, only one had heard of Kelly. This idea that she won based purely on rabid soap fans doesn't add up -- there was a cap on voting, something AI doesn't even bother with. And if John's fans didn't vote for him, well, that's not Kelly's, or ABC's fault. In a show like this, people will vote for the performance they like best, the personalities they like best, the sexiest, the prettiest, the most compelling backstory, etc. That's just the way these things work, as Former Olympian pointed out. Competitors and the audience kind of have to accept it and just have fun with it. This show was about entertaining the audience, and based upon the votes, Kelly was successful in entertaining and inspiring the most people to vote. And Alec (sigh!). I think John and Kelly also benefited from people calling in in support of Charlotte and Alec.

You're never going to get celebs with "equal" fan bases. I would have thought Joey Mac would have won, given how many women in my demographic were obsessed with NKOTB as children/teens. I never imagined a final with a soap star and this O'Hurley guy I'd never heard of, two of the arguably "lesser" stars. On Leno, I think Kelly even joked that the dressing rooms for the show were in order of fame, and hers was at the bottom end. There's never going to be an equal "built-in fanbase." That's just what goes hand in hand with celebrity.

I tend to think of it not as a lame excuse and just, you know, what happened? The judges were used to salivating all over J/C, and gave them their usual high marks for their performance, thinking K/A couldn't do better. Then K/A came out with a performance that could be seen as superior, and was by many people.

I don't think it's phenomenal leading to stand for 30 seconds while your "following" partner circles you. Leading is made considerably easier by walking with your "following" partner wrapped around your waist. I mean, the idea that John's freestyle was the ultimate in dancing greatness kind of surprises me. I thought it was his weakest dance of the series, which disappointed me, b/c he usually had such good routines.

Word.

I don't know that ABC would have risked the huge fines associated with that FCC violation. I know there's a five-second delay, but still, it would have been a gamble.

Well, speaking as a professional seamstress, yes, we know the stress points if we're any good.

But that strap had to fasten somewhere to go around her neck, either at an end or in the back. And the fasteners are the weak spot, since both hooks and snaps can come undone if they aren't closed properly, and velco isn't worth the time it takes to sew it on, except for tear-aways.

As to it being engineered to break without someone giving it a tug? That's seriously hard, and would pretty much require that the costume was made (or modified) after the seamstress/designer had seen and analysed the choreography.

SleepingBeauty hee! I wonder how many shippers were born that day? I was definitely a Rachel fan back then (still is!) but after that Rumba my inner 7th-grader squeed these two should just go off and make babies, he-heh. That and dreamy mmmmmmAlec -- I would play the video over and tell my bf you need to learn to dance so you can hold me just like that!!

Anyway, thanks for inspiring me to go check out the posts at the beginning when it all started (not that I don't spend enough time already on this board, lol)... it was freakin' hilarious to read people's thoughts in hindsight, there were definitely some choice quotes.

Hee. Btw, I think if you see more of Kelly or of John, it's because other shows are jumping on the bandwagon. If this 6-episode summer replacement cheesefest fizzled, all these semi-celebs -- excluding Evander, would've just crawled back into anonimity -- except Trista, you'd probably have to drag her back.

ETA
Ditto. Btw, I like the references to the Scarlet Letter and Hester Prynne -- very apropo Re: Kelly... it used to boggle my mind all the preoccupation with her costume and if she even moved her hips.

I haven't seen someone mention this, so if I've missed it, sorry.

I think what made the scoring at least look like the fix was in, was the THREE 10's.

John/Charlotte got three 9's. If Carrie Ann had given K/A a 10 and Len and Bruno gave them 9's....K/A still would have won, but it wouldn't have seemed so "set up" (whether it was, in reality, set up or not).

The judges had done many other scorings where contestants received the same score as someone else--they weren't ranking them relative to each other and reflecting that in the scores.

The other thing some of the three judges should have done, if the judging was really honest, is to simply say that, wonderful as J/C were throughout the show, on that last night K/A "were superior" for reasons A,B,C....

When they -don't- use interview opportunities to say that (like Carrie Ann didn't say it on LKL), it looks like they chose them for some other reason.

Even if J/C were best throughout the competition, if they weren't the best on the final night, they would be the losers, fair and square.

The judges never seemed to have a lack of confidence in their opinions befpre, so it's just a little odd that they haven't more strongly backed Kelly/Alec's win on the final night--especially as they were appparently all three in total agreement that it was superior.

They really should stand up for their choice, if the judges' vote was fairly done. And if judges and ABC are going to be so intimidated by fans, then the judges are useless and DWTS will wind up (sadly) like AI.

But the judges don't discuss their scores, and they shouldn't, they're suppose to score independently. That would technically be asking them to discuss and adjust their scores just to make John's fans happy and so the scores wouldn't seem "set-up", when in effect doing so would actually constitute collusion. Btw, you see them entering their scores after each dance before they even give out comments.

I disagree. A similar score would indicate one's performance is on par with another. A higher score would indicate one's performance was better than another. Relative scoring is the only basis for judging they had available -- they had no standard for deductions and merits, they have to make a gross judgement of the whole performance.

Yes, but that's not the way they'd been doing it. Many times the same judge gave consecutive 7's, etc.

Yes, but my point is that either the three 10's were a result of judges talking and deciding that, yes, K/A should win (the collusion theory) or the three 10's were just because, independently, each judge felt K/A were the best.

If it was collusion, they should have done it better (9,9, 10)

If it was honest and independent scoring of the best couple of the night? Then it's insulting and ridiculous to talk about a rematch. The judges/ABC shouldn't be bullied by fans. They should say, "K/A were the best dancers on the final night, the judges and the fans agreed. End of discussion."

My interpretation of the scoring is that each judge independently liked John's performance enough to give it a 9. Then each judge independently was wowed by Kelly and wanted to reflect that Kelly was better than John. I don't think there was any collusion at all. If Kelly had gone first, she probably would have gotten straight 9's, and John would have gotten straight 8's.

They were comparing John to Kelly, and all three preferred Kelly. I don't see any evidence of collusion. They mark something on a piece of paper, but I don't think it influences each other. There was one dance where there was a two point difference - I think Kelly's first one on final night? Someone gave her a 7 and someone gave her a 9?

That same judge thought one couple's overall performance is just as good as the previous. Not entirely worse, not entirely better.

Exactly. I completely agree!

I don't know. I'm not really sure it has survived. Because otherwise when Madonna, now aging and looking for new ways to market herself, showed up shopping a proposal for a Children's???! book, any reputable publisher would have laughed in her face rather than rolling out the red carpet. And there would have been no soccer moms lining up in Barnes and Noble to get the Material Ho to sign their copy.

Re: Kelly In regards to the controversy some of the press seems to see in the public's voting as opposed to the judges', I don't get it. If among Kelly's voters, the soap fan base portion was especially enthusiastic and very conscientious in supporting her, I think that is to her credit. And their's. Being able to inspire that kind of loyalty that also goes out and tries to maximize its impact by casting every possible vote is a good thing. There has been no hint that anything has been done outside of the rules, so I don't understand where there could be any problem.

I do wish though that, just on general principle, ABC as should every other network, would in the future put the public voting in the hands of an independent body whose integrity is unquestionable and can be verified.

Like perhaps by a prestigious accounting & auditing firm like Arthur Anderson -- oops, they're not around anymore :) Sorry, I couldn't help myself, ever since Enron, everytime they say an election was verified by this or that firm I just roll my eyes and giggle.

Perhaps audience participation type shows will continue to boom and you might have to enter your social security number to vote, hee!

Before DwtS, I'd never heard of Kelly Monaco, never watched GH, and yet I voted for her. I think a lot of people did the same. I don't believe that all fans of the network soaps voted either. I think all these conspiracy theories and allegations of judging collusions ARE ridiculous and hysterical.

DWTS is exactly like AI. Merely a popularity contest. Reminds me of high school. Barkley said it best


And some of us think they are glaringly obvious.


My costume straps all fasten in two or three places so that if one gives out the others hold.


Yes, between the dress and the broadcast.

If you've ever watched the original versions of Trading Spaces (Changing Rooms) or What Not to Wear on BBC America, you'll discover that the Brits are generally much harsher and more critical than their American counterparts. I think British TV audiences are more accepting of this and maybe even expect it.
I think it's a cultural thing rather than specific to this show.

Considering the amount of PR mileage Kelly has gotten out of winning as well as the attention given to GH, I don't think it is at all unlikely that ABC didn't know that a soap star would win the popular vote handily and that that wasn't part of their strategy. There was precedent from foreign versions of the show, as well as their vote totals available to the suits which could've lead them to expect that any soap star, even one playing an unpopular character on a lousy show, would kick the butt of any non-soap star in a popularity contest. That's what market research is all about. I think they could've plugged any soap starlet into Kelly's role and gotten the same result.

I also agree there was something fishy about the wardrobe malfunction. Sure it was live TV, all the more reason NOT to perform when there's a significant chance of showing boobage. I find it hard to believe that it wasn't in everyone's best interest to cut to commercial right then, change the order of performance, or cut to an interview so that the problem could be addressed. Every live show, even televised sports, has contingency plans in case something goes wrong. Are we to believe that no one associated with the show had thought it was possible that they'd need to have a backup in case of emergency, that the only option was to let the tits fall where they may? Instead, we got Kelly clutching her maracas through the whole thing. I don't think she would've done it if she had thought there was any real possibility of flashing the audience and it only added to her growing legend as the feisty Little Engine that Could.


Not entirely. At least AI doesn't pretend to be anything other than a popularity contest and its judges don't pretend that they have any control over the final result. AI is at least honest about what it is and doesn't pretend to be what it is not. I'd be happier if DWtS would follow suit and drop the judges' scores entirely, let them comment and then let the audience vote. It would also be nice if DWtS could release limited info about the voting results as AI does. Tell us the total number of votes, what margin the leader has over second place. The fact that they still haven't done this after weeks of controversy only adds fuel to the fire.


It is unless she was cast for the show because it was known that this was exactly what would happen, that, as a soap star, her voting base would be so large and unwavering that she would win no matter how she performed since no one would be able to garner enough votes for their dancing to overcome those she got for being on a soap. I don;t think Kelly is the problem here, nor do I think her fans are any better than any other soap star's. I do think, however, that soap opera fans may be more likely to cast votes in this sort of contest and that their votes won't have anything to do with their favorite's actual abilities. And I think TPTB knew this from the beginning.


Actually, the audience never voted on the final performances.

Yes but when a network televises a competition for which it also hires "story" editors and is itself responsible for counting the votes for that story/competition, then, imo, that is also problematical.

I would prefer a separate entity to handle the votes and that they be open to verification.

Re: wardrobe malfunction
I lay the blame on Alec. Personally, I think the suxy love birds just got a little playful preshow and Alec just forgot one too many fasteners. Ooops. Hee. Yes, I am constantly 12 years old.

The conspiracy theories are just that, I think we're just gonna all have to let go... we've already hashed out every plot detail, I don't think we're gonna change each other's minds. We have buried the poor dead horse several pages ago. Miss Alli might not be too happy if she has to bury it again.

Of the winners of the UK and Aus versions I could find information on, none of them were daytime soap opera actors:
- Strictly Come Dancing Series One: Winner was Natasha Kaplinsky, morning show presenter (think Katie Couric)
- SCD Series Two: Winner was Jill Halfpenny, star of a hugely popular, long-running evening Dallas/Dynasty-type show, EastEnders. It is shown every night at 10pm, and run again on BBC 3. Not the equivalent of an American soap. Again, as had been said before, if you're a television star in Britain, you're more likely than not affiliated with BBC, the channel that also runs SCD.
- DWTS Aus: Latest winner was Tom Williams, extreme sports guy, radio personality, and presenter on several different shows (The Great Outdoors, Room for Improvement).

I just don't see how it was a foregone conclusion that a soap opera actress would win it all, based upon the previous winners. There aren't that many people who watch soaps. More people have watched Seinfeld (or watch -- it's on in syndication at least three times a day where I live), or the Holyfield-Tyson fight (or any of Holyfield's fights), or Trista's wedding, or rocked out to NKOTB back in the day.

The reason I brought this up was that part of the consipiracy theory is that the judges were told to be extra hard on Kelly the first night in order to cement the underdog image. My point is that the judges were already harsh and didn't need prompting ato be extra harsh. In fact, I think they were trying to be extra nice to people like Evander and Kelly because if you take what they said on the BBC show on the first night and compared it with the comments from DWTS, the two don't even compare. What they said to Kelly was like a walk in the park compared with what they say on the BBC show.

I like the "suxy lovebirds" out of control theory for the wardrobe malfunction as well. That was also the night of Alec doing the little dance behind Kelly right before they went to commercial.

Hee! Thank you for that suxy-licious visual, djork! My 12-year-old self is giggling like mad. I love it! I bet the suxy duo just had so much "fun" with those straps. ;)

Oh, and WORD to the posts about the conspiracy theories on DwtS. The horse has long since died and been buried six feet under. The carcass has long been feasted on by worms and maggoty things. There's not much sense in digging it up to beat at the bones anymore. Can't we all just agree to disagree and let it rest?

At least, until the second season of DwtS begins next year. Heh. I just hope no reality teevee "star" gets cast. Except for Colby of Survivor... I bet that cowboy would look mighty fine in those pants that fit snugly in just the right places!

annlaw78:

In response to your responses of this morning to my posts of last night. I've been working some weird hours and this is the first chance I've had to respond.


Actually, I didn't see any Samba in Ashley's Paso; I saw legitimate syllabus Paso such as Sur Place, Appel, Chasses, Separation, Promenades, Coup de Pique and some very good attempts at shaping from Joey. I was very pleased to see that Ashly wasn't afraid to choreograph a good basic Paso routine that Joey could do a credible job of. My estimation of her talent and judgment sky-rocketed after the Paso.


You may be right. I didn't think of it before, but maybe the Bamboleo music that K/A got stuck with was to reinforce the "poor little underdog" story line.


It certainly wasn't impossible; Ashly did a fabulous job (see above). What was Alec's problem?
If he has passed his tests to teach, surely he is familiar with syllabus Paso.


However, if you read some other message boards, you would see that the cap was not enforced to any significant degree. People made up multiple email addresses, voted on multiple phone lines (including friends' cell phones and pay phones). And I agree with you that Kelly didn't win based purely on rabid soap fans. She, as well as Joey and John, had plenty of new and equally rabid DWTS fans. In addition, some of Kelly's new fans were courtesy of CI and BT picking on her.


Ah, but many people didn't think her free dance was superior if you check the poll on a dance site that records 70% of respondents believe the outcome was fixed/rigged. Furthermore the audience did not vote on the free dance, only the judges did. The final audience vote was for the Fox and Paso, in neither of which she beat John. Although she probably would have won the audience vote for her free dance, she didn't because it was never counted. Let's face it, this whole tempest is because many people don't believe she did a superior job, regardless of the judges paddles.


Here is where we have different eyes. I don't consider the choreography when I evaluate how someone dances. I can separate choreography from execution. Let me put it this way - when John leads, he does a better job than Kelly does when she follows.


It was never a gamble. Her top was not in danger of falling off. It was too tight and probably taped inside. However, the false alarm did create a delicious ratings grab buzz.

Annlaw, I'm curious. How many of the competitors on those other version were affliated with the airing network?

I understand that it's difficult to be on TV in Britain and not be affliated with the Beeb, but how many of the stars were non-TV people? What about Australia? How many non-TV stars? how many non-sponsoring network TV stars? how many sponsoring-network TV stars?

I like that you used the word "strategy," peppypen. I was thinking just this morning that it is a much better descriptor than "conspiracy." I doubt the ABC execs view what they did (or at least, appear to have done in the eyes of lots of people) as a "conspiracy" because to them it was all part of a "strategy" to promote their daytime star. "And all's fair in love and advertising/programming, right?" [/network exec] Anyone wanna bet that Kelly's guest turn on DH will be timed to coincide with DWTS2? Cross-promotion is the name of the game.

Great point! I hadn't even considered that. Had the director really thought there was a danger of excess boobage, why wouldn't he/she cut to commercial, or at least focus the cameras on Alec exclusively? But as you (or was it rumbawalks?) point out, they all probably knew there wasn't any real chance of flashing and just chose to play it up for the extra "drama."

Word. That's exactly what bugs me about the AI/DWTS comparison. It's apples vs. oranges. The very *point* of AI is to annoint the next "idol" -- that is, the person who, regardless of actual talent :) , can inspire such fan devotion that he/she will garner the most votes. Becoming the most popular is the very essence of that show. Whereas ABC presented DWTS as something different. Veteran reality-show watchers were probably not fooled, but some of us (like me) who do not watch reality shows were not expecting the kind of "bait and switch" that ABC pulled.

Rumbawalks-- I understand about the weird posting hours, so no worries about it. Glad you post when you can!

To be honest, my knowledge of the paso is limited to what Fran's grandmother taught Scott in "Strictly Ballroom," so I will defer to your greater knowledge of the dance. Alec had commented that not having had the paso song made choreographing a strict paso difficult, and at least with their song, he had to add in non-paso moves to make it work. So I take his word for it, as he's, you know, the pro!

I know, but at least there was some attempt to limit voting by voting machines and one person making 100 calls (unless one person has 20 phone lines).

And you could probably check another poll that says otherwise. All I meant by "many think her freestyle was superior" is that there are people, such as here on this board, that agree with the judges that Kelly's freestyle was better.

How was this showcased as something other than "hey, tune in and see these minor celebs/has-beens try to dance (maybe someone will have a minor fall?!), and vote for the couples you like." The judges were there to help provide some sort of "expert" guidance on who danced well, but at the end of the day, it was up to the people who watched the show to vote for who stayed on. I have no training in ballroom dancing -- all I can do is vote for the couple I subjectively found most entertaining on the dance floor. It all comes down to an audience vote, and the audience isn't going to be infallible or experts. There's no way around that unless you eliminate the audience vote. But then, when the majority's fave couple is voted off, then the majority might decide not to tune in again. That's just basics economics -- keep a supply of what is in demand -- not baiting and switching, IMO.

ETA: Rabrab -- I'll take for example Series 2 of SCD (b/c I'm too lazy to try to look up all past contestants):
Carol Vorderman: presenter of game show "Countdown."
Quentin Willson: formerly on BBC's "Top Gear" programme and currently presents the series "Britain's Worst."
Esther Rantzen: presented BBC show "That's Life!" for over 20 years.
Diarmuld Gavin: presenter of "Home Front in the Garden"
Sarah Manners: actress on BBC show "Casualty," one of FHM's 100 sexiest women
Roger Black: Olympic athlete
Aled Jones: singer, presenter of BBC's "Songs of Praise"
Julian Clary: comedian, presenter of "Prickly Heat," "All Rise for Julian Clary," and guest spots on other shows.
Denise Lewis: Olympic athlete

So basically, most of the contestants on last season's SCD were television personalities, most of which had spent some part of their career, if not most, on the BBC. So it's not exactly a great model for ABC to follow. Just b/c one BBC star won that series... well, a BBC-affiliated star had a 6 out of 10 shot of winning the show.

Oh nevermind, I'll do SCD Series One, too, b/c I'm procrastinating:
Martin Offiah: rugby player
Lesley Garret: opera singer
David Dickinson: antiques expert and presenter of BBC's "Bargain Hunt"
Verona Joseph: actress on BBC's "Holby City"
Natasha Kaplinksy: presents BBC's "Breakfast News"
Christopher Parker: actor on BBC's "EastEnders"
Claire Sweeney: actress and presenter, most noted for role on "Brookside"
Jason Wood: singer/comedian

So there was a, 4 out of 10 chance that a BBC-affiliated star would win.

Not really. Had the judges not scored but only commented on the performances, then I'd agree with you. But they *did* give scores, and those scores did count right up until the finale. That, together with my recollection of ABC promoting this as a contest to determine which amateur celeb learned to dance better via a crash course with a pro, certainly left me (a reality-show novice) with the impression that skill did matter and that this was, you know, a real amateur dancing contest at least in part. Silly me.

rumbawalks just wanted to say that just as it might be easy for a rabid Kelly fan to make up multiple emails to vote, it is even much, much, much easier for a rabid John fan to hit a button that says rigged on an internet poll multiple times. Not only that, while the latter activity is quite easy to program the former one is a bit more tricky, but still feasible. Not saying that is what happened, just hard to gauge anything by the internet.

Great research annlaw78. BBC has a royal charter to broadcast radio and tv so they're connection there will be pervasive, they also have a historic influence in the music industry via their live sessions.

Anyway, it might be fun to play 6-degrees of Disney with our contestants...
- Trista - Bachelor/Bachelorette - ABC - Disney
- Kelly - Port Charles/GH - ABC - Disney
- John - Tarzan & Jane/Buzzlightyear - Disney; GH - ABC - Disney

I haven't figured out the other 3... my knowledge of shows is quite poor these days. Not to mention Disney has tentacles everywhere, some of which I didn't even know: Touchtone, Buena Vista and Miramax, as well as ESPN, ABC, Disney Channel, SOAPnet, and partly Lifetime, A&E and E! ABC might have a hard time finding celebs clear of the Disney brand, hee!

And, Rabrab, the cast of Australia's DWTS's latest series:
Sara-Marie Fedele: "Big Brother" housemate.
Jason Smith: actor, "Home and Away," "All Saints," "Ocean Star."
Ian Roberts: rugby player, stage actor.
Darryn Hinch: radio host, TV host ("Midday").
Shane Gould: Olympic swimmer.
Suzie Wilks: host of "Our House," "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner," "Bodywork," and "Changing Rooms."
Nikki Webster: actress/singer, on "Home and Away," "G.P.," and "Priscilla, Queen of the Desert.
Tom Williams (winner): extreme sportsman, radio personality, presenter on "The Great Outdoors."
Steven Bradbury: speed skater
Holly Brisley: host of "Agro's Cartoon Connection," "World's Craziest Videos;" actor of "Home and Away," "BeastMaster, "All Saints," "Mermaids," and "White Collar Blue." and movies.

Don't know much about Channel 7, but I do know that "All Saints," "The Great Outdoors," and "Home and Away" are shows on that channel. So a 4 out of 10 chance that a Channel 7-affiliated star would win the show.


Dominar, I see what you're saying, and I'm bummed you're disappointed in the show. I guess since I knew that ignorant schlubs like me, with no further qualifications than having a phone, were voting, then, well, it wasn't going to be all about the dancing!

ETA annlaw78, we might have to crown you 'research guru'! So judging by the history of DwtS, ABC's problem is not that they had ABC personalities in the show, it's that they didn't have enough of them! Crazy.

annlaw78 how long did it take you to do this research? Because if you could do it... why can't these so-called journalists and critics bother to do some background check about the history of the show before they go-on-and-on-and-on about their hooplah? Lazy butts. Grrr. Arrgh.

Djork, it took me about 20-30 minutes. Love the internet! Understandably, in the UK, most of the broadcast stations are BBC (at least they were last time I was ther). And in the US version, we had two ABC-affiliated stars, an NBC-affiiliated star, an athlete, a singer, and a model/TBS-affiliated star.

My point is that I don't think that ABC, by looking at the fact that a BBC-star, or a Channel 7 star/athlete won the past three seasons of DWTS's international cousins would necessarily be able to earmark Kelly as the winner.

However...a super-duper top pro Latin competitor who is famous the world over in dancesport circles (Slavik Kryklyvyy) has used that exact song in a showdance Paso+other things number. And some of the moves he had Kelly do had already been used by Slavvik's partner, Karina Smirnoff -- especially those ones where Kelly was standing balanced on one leg and stretching out her arm and other leg. So it's not like Alec was starting completely from scratch with something he'd never heard of, worked with, or seen before either.

Personally, I think Ashly did the best job with the Paso. She didn't get a Paso song, and she didn't get a song that a fairly recent world champion is known for using either. She choreographed a recognizable Paso routine and also made it quite entertaining. It was Joey's best night by far...I wonder if he and Ashly had worked like that all through the series if he would have been in that final.

My deal with the paso doble thing is, either let all couples dance to the standard music, or don't let any of them. From a choreography/planning standpoint, I think it is unfair to let one couple have the benefit of the "standard" song (that they could have been choreographing a dance to weeks in advance), and make the others come up with a routine for a song they are less familiar with in less than a week.

Post Gazette -- Cherry on Kelly's involvement with Desperate Housewives (probably none)

You've expressed it well Dominar. I felt the show was dishonest whereas ABC probably sees their actions as strategy or story line. I took the term "reality" literally, but I know better now.


annlaw
Fran and her family taught Scott the Spanish national dance, Paso Doble, from which the Ballroom version is adapted. The ballroom version has evolved away from the Spanish Dance and that's why Fran's father laughed at Scott's Paso the first time they danced. So Strictly Ballroom wouldn't help you very much with understanding ballroom Paso in much the same way that Argentine Tango and Ballroom Tango are very different.


You are totally right, and with a set up like DWTS, it is reasonable that most of the audience will vote according to popularity or appearance. I have no problem with an audience vote that rewards for some other reason than dance ability. That is the nature of the animal. If someone posts that he/she votes for Kelly/Trista/Evander/Rachel/Joey/John because they're cute or sexy or feisty, that's fine by me because it's honest and doesn't pretend to be something more than it is. I don't expect people who have never taken a lesson or competed to see the same details as someone who has spent the time and money. (Believe me, dancesport is not cheap.) Even people who study ballet or jazz don't always know what to look for when they watch ballroom and vice versa.
However, I expected better from the judges (LG in particular). If we can't trust the judges, then we had all better go home and take up golf. IMO judges deserve respect if they are knowledgeable and consistent and unbiased. If not, they lose credibility forever. You can never trust a corruptible judge.
Like Dominar, I believe the promos for the show did suggest that dance ability was a major part of the contest. But after reading some of the message boards, I knew that dance ability was not going to be a factor in the audience vote. Nonetheless I think it was reasonable to expect the judges to do their job honestly.

Djork

I don't know if the poll I mentioned would accept multiple votes from the same email or IP because I would never do that. In fact, during the show I voted once each week by internet; I believe in one vote per person and that multiple voting was somehow silly and demeaning for me. People make their own decisions about stuff like that and do what is right for them. This topic came up on another board, and I was surprised by how many others also voted once per week.

Zigletto's Pal

ITA, Joey's poor frame and posture and lack of grounding annoyed me because somehow I could see that he was capable of better. Working into the floor is not an easy concept to absorb if you've always danced off of the floor. In his last week, I could see that he should have been a stronger challenge to John; he made a quantum leap in between weeks 4 and 5. Come to think of it, I think I would give him the title of most improved during the broadcast weeks (because we didn't see how much each celeb improved during the weeks before broadcast).

The thing is, annlaw78, that the "standard" paso song, Espani Cani, is actually quite difficult to choreograph. It's phrased unevenly and can be quite challenging to count, particularly for a newbie dancer. So it's quite possible that Ashly & Alec both were grateful to NOT have to use it, maybe even thought that having something else was an advantage.

I agree with you that dancing to an easily identifiable song could make the characterization of the dance much more accessible. After it all, it was the birthplace of "Fernando"...whether that makes you giggle or shudder is up to you!

I had forgotten about that. I had never had to count as much as I did when learning Paso to Espani Cani. I know I've heard other good Paso songs on dance CD's. I wonder why the music director didn't use some of those.

hi rumbawalks, sorry I didn't mean to imply that you would vote multiple times. I myself never voted at all during the run of this show... don't know why, I guess if I didn't bother to vote for Fantasia on AI there was nothing that would inspire me to vote. Anyway, I just wanted to point out that anyone so inclined to vote several times for any of their favorites could do so, whether it be for DwtS or some online poll -- even if the site monitors emails and IP addresses, and are not limited to Kelly fans. But mostly, I just intended to respond to this:

As some have already noted, people who don't care or are happy with the outcome tend not to search and respond to polls asking if the outcome was rigged. And some people who might be quite incensed could conceivably vote multiple times to drive their point across. I'm not sure if percentages are indicative of anything, only that some people were unhappy with the result.

Thanks djork

I understand what you are saying about the polls. The poll I mentioned was on a dance site, so the respondents would have been mostly dancers rather than the general public, in which case it's not surprising that the dissatisfaction rate would be high. Most (actually all) of the dancers to whom I will even admit that I watched the show could hardly believe that the judges thought Kelly deserved to place higher than John (or even Rachel or Joey). Popularity - yes, dance - no.

I guess when you spend so many of your waking hours thinking about technique (mostly your own) it's natural to look for it in others. I'm one of those people who would rather watch something simple done well, than something difficult done poorly. For me, watching someone struggle with a dance that's too hard is not entertaining in the least. In fact, I feel their pain. On the other hand, basic Rumba (Michael and Beata) or Foxtrot (Christopher and Hazel) performed by top couples is just so darn satisfying to experience.

Although judging dance or any art is highly subjective, I believe that it is also possible to be objective to some degree when technique is considered. IMO technique is very important to any artistic endeavor because it supports, enables and releases artistry. Since it would be unreasonable to expect artistry from beginners, I judged the celebs by how much technique they managed to learn and display in such a short time. Reading these message boards has helped me understand that people (myself included) see what they are able to see as well as what they want to see.