On AI, the judges don't vote.....

djork

First of all, what is pure art?

Are we all going to agree what's meant by that?

Is it the same as "pure opinion"?

Character of the music is not artistic or abstract either.

Character of the music means if you have waltz music - skater Sasha Cohen used it a few years ago - the character of your program should evoke a waltz. You skate in that 4/4 or 2/4 rhythm that's waltzlike (whatever the waltz rhythm is) You don't move along the ice as you would to "Nessum Dorma".

Character of the music doesn't mean embody the music in some nebulous way emotionally or with your spirit - it's how you are moving. If you are skating to flamenco music your movements are crisp, staccato, sharp, if you've got something with a long melodic line you're not boogying down the ice, the lines of your body and the quality (not calibre, but "type of") of your movement is in harmony with the type of music.

IOW, it's not abstract. It's another pretty basic technical criteria. It puts the burdon on the skater to design and skate according to the music they've chosen. Character of the music means "kind of music".

Character of the music was easiest to understand and explained best on this show in the talk about the Paso Doble - that's easy music to explain and connect to how movement should express its character.
Don't shimmy and bop to "Moonlight Sonata" and don't make like Giselle when "Rock Around the Clock" is your music.

The problem with the judging was that the judges, going on their assumption that J/C were going to win their vote, overscored them for a routine that wasn't terribly full of steps and dancing. When K/A came out and performed a routine that was pretty full, and did it to their apparent liking, they had nothing to do register that but give them 10s. J/C still beat K/A in the first dance of the evening, which people tend to be forgetting.

I think the fact that Carrie Ann preferred K/A's samba when Kelly couldn't extend her arms over the one where she was actually doing arm movements should say something for that "intangibles" were always a big factor in their judging. She liked Kelly's working through the strap breaking and carrying on so well, and awarded it higher scores when Kelly later performed it more technically correct. The judging just isn't anything terribly consistent.

Though on AI the judges don't vote, obviously on DWTS the judges' votes mean very little, as the audience vote is the tiebreak -- no matter what, K/A were going to win the night, before any dancing. I guess that's why I don't understand the big beef. J/C were the "losers" since after their foxtrot and paso.

My point in comparing the judging of the two shows was that getting good reviews on one night does not mean that contestant is going to win it all, esp. win it all comes down to what the audience likes.


Unless, of course, you aren't given the paso song to connect your movements to, and you're having to express the character of "Bambaleo" or "Eye of the Tiger," not the proper song. Hee.

I don't think they overscored J&C though, and a lot of other people don't either. There's no agreement on that. If one thinks J&C were overscored and K/A were better, then there's no judging issue - they had to have tens to score higher than J&C.

But there is far from agreement on both those things, and people who don't agree with both of those conclusions are questioning the judging. I'm one of them, obviously, cause I don't think K/A were better.

And Carrie Ann said that they used different criteria for the finale - I read that she said this on Larry King or another show - if I'm wrong, then obviously forget this particular point. Intangibles, to me, was a cop out brought into service for the finale.

Thank GOD! I thought I was the only one who realized that the 'I'm going to Disneyland' bit is a piece of freakin' pop culture. Or was the 49ers wins back in the day all a set up by ABC to prop THEIR chosen team. Joe Montana wasn't one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time, it was all smoke and mirrors created by the mouse and those rabid soap fans!

CONSPIRACY!

This is just foul. God, way to take a fun, silly show and ruin it because it didn't go your way. Poor Kelly, she's back to being the most hated woman on television... before it really was limited to a fraction of the viewing audience... now it seems to be everybody.

How dare she! How dare she steal that trophy away from John and Charlotte! How dare she malign the pristine reputation of an afterthought summer show by winning. It's like the Paul Hamm thing in the Olympics last year. Everyone bitching so much about the stunning results that it takes away the lustre of the win.

With all of this venom being spewed her way, I'm wondering what celebrity would want to set themselves up for this? At least in the soap world she was already used to being hated.

Nyree
No, I still will agree that K/A's routine was not "10"-worthy, if 10s indicate perfection. Is your contention that the judges, at some point before the freestyle dances were danced, colluded or were approached to give K/A 10s, regardless of their performance? So that no matter what K/A did, they were going to get a 30?

*Threw a fit backstage*, did he?!?

1st lesson learned...take this one with a LARGE grain of salt. Nobody knows who Fonseca's *source* was to begin with...so unless John himself says that he did indeed do that, or said source makes EVERYTHING about the incident in question public....

Then I'm inclined to believe that said source is full of....*insert choice word here*

As I said before, training and competing like this is just as big an emotional and mental investment as it is a monetary or physical one. Maybe even more so. Imagine - week after week you earn both high marks and praise from the judges...whether you want to believe it or not, talk like that puts you on a pretty high pedestal - and eventually, thoughts of winning the whole thing can and DO creep into your head. When it happens, let's face it. You can't help but feel great.

The inverse is also true. To take that kind of a fall in one moment, in front of 20+ million people can leave one feeling pretty rotten no matter how you try to sugar coat it. I know. It's happened to me as well. That night, at our biggest competition ever (at the time) I may have had a smile on my face while accepting a silver medal...

But inside, I was crushed. And angry. I knew my partner and I had aced this routine - don't ask me how, just felt it. :) Now, did I *throw a fit* in anger once I got backstage? Despite being angry, no I didn't. I just waited until I could be by myself and only then did I emotionally fall apart. Nothing wrong with that at all...especially considering the intense nature of competition and the personalities within it (Hey, I'm Irish Canadian, so that may have had a lot to do with it too! :) *LOL* ) you're bound to have an emotionally heated moment in there someplace.

Sometimes, you get vibes about people. The vibe I got from John is that no, as for throwing a fit...he wouldn't go that far. Get emotional? Perhaps. It's hard not to when in the moment you can't see a tangible return on the investment you made. Is he upset? Every indication so far has said to some extent, yes. I for one think he's done a pretty good job keeping himself in check. Feelings themselves are never wrong. It's how we choose to express them and/or act on them that makes it a real issue. Coming from a man who's conduct AWAY from the dance floor has been just as graceful as his dancing ON it - I wouldn't crucify him for the one moment in time that his emotions may have got the better of him. It happens to everybody....

I understand that. But the judge's scoring, no matter if you disagree with it, did not in the end determine anything. Based upon the audience votes for their dancing in Week 5, Kelly and Alec won. That was the system John and Kelly agreed to participate under. So being so unhappy with the judges' scores, to me, is rather pointless.

Out of all of J/C's great routines, I did not think that that freestyle deserved to be voted the highest of them all. It was slow, it didn't have a lot in it, and it didn't showcase their best assets. I think both freestyles were overscored.

Don't ever alk about my Joe like that, even in jest !!! :-)

Hi Nyree, I was just curious what their take on the category of "Expression of the character of the music" and why I wanted to read the excerpt. I was only stating my initial interpretation of the category.

More so, the category states "Expression of the character of the music", not just character of the music. I definitely agree with your definition of character of the music.

But my personal opinion, "Expression of the character of the music" requires more than just performing flamenco to flamenco music, or a quick, crisp step pattern to a staccato music sequence. I think there is emotion involve, being able to express real meaningful emotion. And this is where artistry comes in for me.

I am of the belief that artistry is more than just the sum of technical qualities you can objectively analyze. Artistry to me involes emotion, and an expression of emotion that creates a synergy with everything else.

ETA How do you perceive emotion is I think a good question to ask. I think to some people they can break it down to a contortion of the facial muscles, a squint of the eye, a furrow of the forehead, the breadth of the smile. Others will describe it as palpable energy, you feel it or you don't.

I'm not crucifying John or anything. But I am sick to death of all of these nay-sayers taking the piss out of Kelly for working just as hard as everyone else did on that show.

If a conspiracy was, in fact, happening, it sure as hell didn't start with her so villifying her the way these articles continue to do is ridiculous. And these articles are also not helping John's situation despite the fact that they want to paint him as the one who was robbed. They're making him look like a prima donna who throws a tantrum after not getting his way just as much as they're making Kelly out to be some evil whore for shaking her ta-tas and being ABC's chosen IT girl.

It's ridiculous. These conspiracy articles might as well start accusing Kelly of smuggling state secrets in her cleavage. All of this drama over a fun summer show? What the hell?

John wasn't going to be happy unless he won the whole damn thing but he didn't so he needs to shut up. He was already bitching on Larry King that he only had his 13 nieces and nephews to vote for him while Kelly had her soap fans. The reason he got all the face time on the show is because he used to golf with Larry. Larry had it in for Kelly with all those bullshit questions he asked her.


Everybody knows that when you win any sporting event or competition on tv you usually say you are going to Disneyland or DisneyWorld after the win. Would it have been better if she said she was going to Six Flags.




I agree with this. I thought John's freestyle sucked. They had to give Kelly a higher score to say they liked her routine better. Since John scored 27 they had no choice but to go higher. She could have scored 29 to tie and still won on the audience vote and people would still bitch.

That's very true, but they praised John and Charlotte almost every night. And Bruno did the same to Rachel. I'm just guessing they started to believe it, and have some hope for themselves. Well , you know, built up to be let let down.

I am not saying any of this aftermath is right, but I think I understand some of the hurt feelings. I think they all worked hard and all of them improved from when they started.

Word to the nth. This show was light, it was fun, it was cheesy, it was puff. It was entertaining and a guilty pleasure. I'm a little surprised at the intensity of anti-Kelly feeling that all these internet and newspaper writers seem to have. From reading all those articles, you'd think the woman ate all the babies in L.A.

This was a fun and entertaining show that showed "celebrities" doing something that you're not used to seeing them do. Nobody expected the show to garner the amount of attention it did. It's unfortunate that some of the media writers seem to be taking it so seriously.

And what is really annoying is that these writers/commentators that are fomenting all this pissiness against Kelly apparently don't understand that there was no point for ABC to have "rigged" the final judges' vote. I guess they didn't read where the audience vote was the tie-break, and if the brass at ABC knew Kelly had won the audience vote well in advance of the finals, there was absolutely no need for any "fixing" of the judges' votes. So do some research. Kelly and Alec won based upon the audience vote for Week 5, not the judges' vote on the freestyle.

John and Charlotte started faltering with their Tango and faltered even more with their Samba, where *gasp* they placed BELOW Kelly and Alec. They ended up in the bottom 2. That should have been John's wakeup call that things might not go as he had hoped. There was a very real possiblity that a few points one way or another may have resulted in John and Charlotte going home before the finale, especially in the semi-final when Joey needed just 2 more points and J&C would have more than likely been going home.

Talk about scores that weren't deserved, that Paso Doble was a mess and a disaster for J&C. John wasn't dancing, he was mostly walking and not "dance" walking, "walking" walking. When he did "dance", his footwork was shuffly and messy, and he almost landed on his ass during the final move. If the judges were trying to rig anything, it was to keep Joey out of the finals and John in.
If you compare Joey and Ashly 's Paso to John's, Joey should have blown John out of the water and gotten 9's or even a 10 for his performance.

Yes, I understand that it's heartbreaking to train so hard and have the judges all say how wonderful you are and think you nailed your last routine, but part of competing is learning how to lose gracefully, and John hasn't done that at all. You paste that smile on your face and grin until your cheeks hurt. You don't ever make the winners feel like shit and you don't become a detriment to your sport (or show).

Alec's is such a hottie.

Ooops, where did that come from?
Oh yeah, I agree it was light, cheesy fun!

Do you think if they add new pros to the upcoming season, they would be disadvantaged since the former pros have audience familiarity?

It would be kinda funny if Alec won with his celeb again. People might realize they were barking at the wrong tree ;)

barkley I agree with you. I was just rewatching the Paso's and I thought Joey's Paso was the best of the night technically and in execution. That is quite something of Joey for me to have noticed during a night when Alec was half-nekkid! I definitely thought it was better than John's.

One thing though, John has is incredibly good upper body carriage, I think it captures the eye well that it attracts attention away from his sometimes sloppy footwork. I usually don't catch it myself until I rewatch the shows. I'm gonna say it again, John tends to get flatfooted and doesn't roll to the ball of his foot enough, he is also a bit backweighted so his footwork has an abruptness and shuffliness to it.

ETA ziglettospal I am a Slavik fangirl, I think will just turn into goo if he shows up on DwtS 2. That's a gorgeous pic of him BTW! Great article. Slavik, I don't think you were cast for you Standard dancing, hee-hee.

That's what I thought when I was watching, and I was suprised to see people ripping into John for it here. I guess this is proof that people will hear what they want to hear: I heard it as above, and I prefer John's dancing to Kelly's. People who have the opposite preference heard it as a slam against the current show. Like I said upthread, this is getting to be like religion and politics.

As for Disneyland -- the first time, when the 49er's won, it really was a heartfelt thing. But later on Disney picked it up as an advertising scheme -- most notably with the whole Nancy Kerrigan debacle when she reportedly had to say it for contractual reasons ("Nancy Kerrigan, you've just won the hearts of millions, what are you going to do now?" "I'm going to Disneyland"). The debacle came when she actually went to Disneyland (or maybe it was Disney World) to be in a parade there, and was caught on camera saying something to the effect that it was hokey and for little kids and wasn't exactly her idea of a good time.

But I digress.

You all are SO READY to be dancesport super fans. All this debate about what should be judged, how it should be judged, and who is better and why...all this snarking and arguing and drama...all of it is quite authentic!

Side note: people who watch a decent amount of high-level professional Latin will recognize that a number of Alec's moves (including the whole bit of using "Bombaleo" for a Paso Doble number) have previously been done by Slavik Kryklyvyy & Karina Smirnoff -- multi-time world Professional Latin Finalists and role model to thousands of dancers. Slavik also appeared in the english-language version of Shall We Dance. Here's a photo and interview, and a slew of photographs.

To me, his tone didn't indicate he meant that next season will be as great as this season. He preceded that comment by 1) saying he didn't have the fanbase and 2) the show needs "tweaking," it's a "perfect template for a great show."* Meaning this season it was not a great show, to me. But yeah, better to just say "I'm so happy for Kelly and Alec, and I enjoyed being able to be on this great show, and dance with a great partner."

*Not an exact quote; don't have the time to look over the transcript right now!


I hope he comes back again. I hope all the dancers who want to come back do, especially those that didn't get as much exposure b/c of early exits. I think Alec had great stage presence, and something about his expressions while dancing translated really well on the screen.

Meaning that if Alec won DwtS a second time that would somehow prove that he was a better teacher and dancer than Charlotte? That's comparing apples to oranges: His specialty is Latin, and he's very good at it but he's not been a world champion or even a US champion. Charlotte's specialty is Standard, and she has been an amateur world champion, and runner-up to the professional world champion.

Or meaning that if Alec won DwtS a second time that would somehow prove that Kelly was a better student and dancer than John? Now that's a bit of a non-sequitor.

All it would prove is that Alec can turn on the kinds of performances and turn out the kinds of students that the general public loves to vote for. Which is the whole point of the show anyway.

WORD on wanting to see more of the pros who had early exits. I think Louis is a bit, ahem, dramatic, but that is the style of dancesport I guess. I thought Edyta was so dynamic, and I hated to see her leave! It'll be interesting to see them partnered with different celebs.

I can't believe this thread is still going strong!

It's obvious that we miss seeing dance on primetime tv - maybe Fox's new show will fill in the gap, although I think I will miss DwtS more.

But most people aren't just mad that K/A scored a 30. They're mad that they won. And they're using the 30 as "proof" that the competition was fixed. But as many people have mentioned time and again, the judges' scores for the finale did not matter at all. It's fine to be upset with the 30 if you simply felt that J/C's freestyle was better. But a lot of people are complaining as if the 30 was indicative of a tainted victory for K/A. The J/C fans should be mad that more of them didn't vote instead of cook up some silly conspiracy theory.

I also thought it was obvious that she was struggling for something to say, and rambled off the first thing that popped into her head.

And as a side note, the waltz is in 3/4. Think "Blue Danube".

Hi ziglettospal I think you took my comment the wrong way. Think 7th grade! And utter shallowness.

I was just teasing that instead of people pinning Kelly's win on her being sexy and wearing revealing clothes, they might have been barking at the wrong tree all that time. It was a joke that people might have been voting to keep Alec on their tv instead.

Yikes, all this vitriol for a fluff show! That EW article is just plain silly. I would have preferred a different outcome too but to suggest a conspiracy on the part of ABC is ridiculous.

ziglettospal writes:


Hee! Thanks, we are all doing our best. :)

Didn't the two couples tie in the combined judges vote? I believe John and Charlotte got 54 (27 each time) and Alec and Kelly got 54 (24 the first time and 30 the second). I could be wrong about that but I thought that was the case.

Alec and Kelly beat them by 1. 55 vs 54.

ITA. The first two weeks of the show, one of the problems for K&A (IMO) was that he hadn't figured out how to choreograph for her yet. (Another was that she hadn't learned to trust him yet.) With her ear damage leaving Kelly with equilibrium problems, choreographing to compensate for that would be particularly tricky. What I noticed was that there seemed to be a correlation between Kelly's growing "trust" during their performances, and Alec's beginning to choreograph routines in a way that she was provided with support and an opportunity to recover following spins/turns. That was also when their performances started getting positive feedback and higher scores.

Ahh, I get it! Hee hee, yeah, there is that. Just like how people were going on about how they'd miss Edyta (or, more specifically, Edyta's abs) when Evander got voted off. The two of them do look very very very h-o-t, no doubt there.

I mentioned a rumor a while back that Anya Trebunskaya, who is Jonathan Roberts' wife, was promised a slot in the next run. She is the striking redhead who was dancing the Latin "demonstration clips" with Louis Van Amstel on DwtS. Anya is quite a good teacher, and has some nifty titles behind her to back up her dancesport cred -- in both Standard and Latin. The star who gets paired with her will be a fortunate guy!

And to tell you the truth, I'd kind of like to see Ashly again. I thought she did some good stuff that just wasn't taken well by the judges, specifically that Foxtrot that Len & Bruno harshed on, and that Paso Doble to "Eye of the Tiger." She's just so cute and bubbly.

ETA:



Interesting. So instead of people getting all huffed up about the whole thing, can't we all just hug and say "heck, it was only one point!" And don't bring John or Kelly into this, because I think there's too much slanted interpretation of what people think they mean or imply when they say things :-) :-)

If this were a regular dancesport comp and one couple beat another favorite couple by one point, the fans wouln't be snarking on the dancers or their remarks that much, but rather would be hunting down the judges to see who made the difference and arguing about that, cooking up consipracy theories, exposing old dirt about how that one judge once lived with one of the winners and so was doing a personal favor, and all kinds of dramatic stuff like that. The dancers seem to remain relatively blameless when there's a big contravesey. Unlike figure skating, dancesport judges are ex competitors who became coaches, and who coach the couples currently competing -- even judging competitions that their pupils are dancing in! Now THAT'S fertile ground for lots of fun argument.

Since we got Patrick Swayze for a cameo this season, can we get Kevin Bacon for next?

I just love watching that man walk, he always has a certain swing to his stride. FOOTLOOSE!

One quick comment on why the 10's bugged me. If the judging is on a scale of 1 to 10, then by definition, 10 is "as good as you can possibly be". And that's not really any different from "perfect".

Now, to why I do think that the scoring system needs to be tweaked:

<bad sports analogy time> Using one aspect of the existing total score as the tiebreaker is a lot like saying that a baseball game that's tied at the end of the ninth doesn't go into extra innings, but instead, the team that scored the most runs in the ninth wins. Those runs (scores) have already been counted. Why should they (and they alone) count double?

Yep. Or I suspect it.

Yes, it's your personal opinion and that's what we all base our DWTS votes upon, but it's just not what the judges base it upon. It's not there, not permitted. All of these criteria have specific definitions and there's no real "meaningful emotion" in there as a criteria. It's not something any rulebook could begin to quantify/identify so that the judges could be held up to scrutiny - which they are. Judges have to defend their scores in a way that conforms to the technical standards set out in the rules - and there is no way to establish what "real, meaningful" emotion is in any objective way, and it's not an acceptable scoring defense.

It makes sense, because there's no way to "judge" a judge if that ever became permissible. How could I judge you? I don't see a thing you see in terms of emotion communicated in DWTs -- is that because you're right and I'm wrong? You don't see what I see -- how do you judge if I'm right or not?

The answer to "real, meaningful emotion" lies a lot more with the observer than the performer, in terms of keeping it honest. You can't "prove" real, meaningful emotion happened. You can prove a leg was straight, the steps were in sync, the hold was proper, the spins were the correct number, there were a variety of steps, etc.

Not like you can say - that's speed and that's slow, that leg is straight and that isn't, that beat is ba da DUM and that is da da da da da da da.

Viewers voting in vote on that type of stuff, judges don't. Definitely not in figure skating because there is no agreed upon standard like there is for what movement style suits what music, what different steps look like, what a good spiral edge looks like, what good ice coverage is.

A lot of skating competition where the legend is so-and-so won the judges with their emotion, there is a real, defensible technical basis for the win.

Judges can be absolutely honest and still come up with different scores. With Lipinski/Kwan, there's a decent argument for either skater as the winner. I think Kwan is ninety times the skater Lipinski is, and a lot of observers would put her first, but I wouldn't because she was so damn slow. She was incredibly slow that night, from the tape I have, and Lipinski was fast, spun fast, and had greater jump difficulty even if her jumps weren't technically perfect (she goes off the wrong edge on her lutz)

Judges evaluate everything - someone like me would go - okay, Kwan was skating very slowly, spun like mollasses, but everything was more or less technically par.

Lipinski skated like a bat out of hell, spun like a dervish, and this or that jump was cheated.

I add up all of Lipinski's pluses, and all of Kwan's, and I come up with Lipinski. Lipinski doesn't get all the points she might if her jumps were perfect, but she did a lot of other stuff really well. And Kwan doesn't get the same scores she'd get if she did what she did with good speed and attack, especially in those spins. Someone else adds it up using the same rules and standards I do, and Kwan comes out a little higher. Both are fair. But Lipinski's "joy on the ice" isn't a factor. Her SPEED and confidence on the ice (as reflected in her speed and her lack of "stalking" her jump launches) is a factor.

But two of the judges were not ballroom dance judges and this was never meant to be a professional ballroom dance competition. If I wanted to see someone nitpick footwork and the exact angle someone held their head, I'd tune into DanceSport, not Dancing with the Stars.

According to the dance experts, there is no such rulebook of technicalities in ballroom dancing as their appears to be in figure skating, so I guess the analogy doesn't hold.

O'Hurley should be out there trying to calm the rumors and being a gracious gentleman that I had always assumed he was until this show. He does a lot of voice work for Disney, so maybe the conspiracy was to promote him and the judges refused to play along? It reminds me of when the Pistons played the Lakers in the NBA finals. According to the experts and the media, there was no reason to even play the games, just hand the trophy over to Kobe and Shaq. This scrappy group of nobodies didn't even deserve to step on the same floor as the high and mighty Lakers. Well, we all know how that turned out. As the sports cliche goes... "that's why we play the games".

John went in the favorite - ABC billed him that way in the promos leading up to the finals. Kelly was the underdog. The point is - it didn't matter one whit if they stood there picking their nose the entire time, the winner had already been selected by the audience votes. It would have been better television for Kelly and Alec to have tied or been behind with the judges votes, because most people probably had an inkling that Kelly's fan vote was pretty strong based on the fact that she had never been n the bottom 2 of the voting even when her judges votes were low.

But the judges were THERE to nitpick. If DWTS didn't want them to be judging, and just to react emotionally a la the viewers, they shouldn't have had them. But they did, and regardless of their background, all of the judges established a certain set of criteria and standards for judging what was in front of them.

Until the finale when they threw it out the window for K/A. THAT's the problem. They switched up. And they didn't tell the audience this time the criteria was different.

Before, the show was honest. Cheesy, taking huge liberties with real dancesport and dancesport music, the vocabulary of criticism, and the whole thing. But it was honest on its own terms. There was no point in having three fans up there - there were plenty of fans watching at home. They had judges, who changed the rules at the end and became fans/ABC shills (not because Kelly's employed by ABC, but because I suspect that was not honest scoring and it was scored that way to make the "story" line up neatly with the outcome ABC already knew - that Kelly had it.)

Here's what I think happened. ABC knew Kelly had it in the bag no matter which couple won the evening. And they couldn't resist the story they'd have if they made everything pat. They told the judges the situation and encouraged the judges to ratify, if at all possible (if K/A didn't fall on their faces) the result.

Rather than mark down J&C to make this happen, and hurt THEM, the judges gave them the nines. Then they swooped in with the happy tens for K/A, figuring they're not shortchanging J&C that way AND tens make a boffo finish.

It was so pat, so "made for TV" and so fake, IMO, it set off the controversey. ABC got way too cute.

I've watched other versions of this show, and the judges in the US version were acting the exact same way they did in all the other versions. They were actually harsher on the contestants and slung with more personal and hurtful comments that had nothing to do with the dancing in the British version.

Here's exactly what Carrie Ann said about the judging on LKL



The unidentified male in the above transcript was Joey.

I guess then, my response is what for? Why bother "rigging" when TPTB already knew K/A had won the audience vote, and would be champions? The 30 had pretty much no bearing on the final outcome whatsoever.


I'd say they threw it out for J/C as well. That freestyle was NOT J/C's best performance, by a long shot, but it was their best score. Could you imagine what would have been said had K/A spent 25 secs of their routine standing/walking? It worked for the little play J/C were putting on, and the judge's liked it. That was an intangible. They found it charming, and I think it influenced them in giving them a score higher than any other they'd ever received.

that's my point - that's why I think ABC should have left it alone.

I think they got cute, they overreached, they decided having the judges concord with the popular vote would make a fabulous story - not only did Kelly win hearts by being the fighting underdog, but she also won over those picky judges and went from the lowest to the highest of the series. Woohoo. What a story!

I think ABC couldn't resist what they thought was the marketing appeal of that - that Kelly did a rags-to-riches achievement from being disdained by the judges to being glorified. See what pluck and and never-say-die can do?

Not the same story with just the popular vote - she's had that since the first round of voting. I think ABC thought it would be a great story for her to win over the judges who'd called her funeral face, as long as she was going to be the winner anyhow, why not make it a better STORY. Better for DWT, more dramatic for the audience.

So they thought, *I* think.

I also think if K/A deserved 10's for their performance, J&C deserved 13's for theirs, so I have no problem with the nines. I think the judges preferred to overmark K/A to get the story ABC wanted, rather than penalize J&C to set up K/A.

This is all dependant on how we view the quality of dancing and the different couples. K/A fans are going to see a straightforward story and maybe be p.o.'d at JOH.

People not as enchanted w/K/A are going to see it differently, and question stuff, and that's what's happening.

Since it's a competition, I think questioning, complaining, challenging, pointing out inconsistencies, mistakes, technical standards, etc. are as valid as any other competition - even a cheesefest.

Actually, J/C's freestyle score of 27 was the same as they received for their foxtrot, paso doble, and quickstep II, and only 1 higher than their quickstep I. It was completely in line with their previous scores.

And do you think their freestyle was of the same quality of the other dances, in which they, you know, danced the whole time?

My deal is this: the scoring is going to be indulgent and screwy. J/C were good, but did they deserve all those near perfect marks? What is a perfect 10 in the context of this competition? If not dancing for the first 1/3 of a brief performance is a 9, then that means a 10 is a far cry from perfection.

I agree that the judges already knew the outcome and their scores and especially their remarks were meant to complete Kelly's coronation, her rise from worst to first. For the plucky little underdog, maligned by the judges in the first weeks to then not only get perfect scores but to have the judges proclaim her dance routine the best of the series carries the Cinderella storyline to its natural conclusion, the one that, in the opinion of ABC's execs, makes the best TV I'll bet. Just as many, including me, thought the judges were unduly harsh on Kelly initially, it seemed to me they were unduly lavish in their praise of her dancing in the finale. I don't have nearly as much trouble with the 10's in light of J/C's scores as I do with the ridiculous assertion that the K/A freestyle routine was the best of the series. The whole thing was way too sloppy to be called even the best of that evening, IMO.

Kinda makes me wonder if ABC didn't do some advance research and figure out that Kelly might be able to fit into the 'rags to riches' storyline that so many TV gameshows like to exploit. It might help explain why the judges were so hard on her at first, even the posts here indicated that many people voted for her out of sympathy for her perhaps undeserved low marks. With ABC proclaiming John as the favorite despite the fact that they knew he wasn't getting the audience votes, it seems to me that they needed a 'plot' for Kelly and the 'feisty underdog wins the day' theme is what they went for. The whole thing was a little too choreographed for me, I do think it was planned to try to manipulate the audience into rooting for her since ABC knew she was winning the popularity contest.

Life is not fair wha wha wha (Rob and Amber kept the plane conspiracy going), this just looks like people who don't like O'Hurley will say anything negative about him because he is not doing what anybody wants. Why should O'Hurley try to calm rumors when he is not even creating them, plus he is not being asked about the conspiracy so he has no reason to bring it up. Fans and naysayers are. O'Hurley is being a gracious loser because he is not calling up every news source and saying he was robbed. People are basing these ideas that O'Hurley is not a gracious loser on rumors that we don't know are true.

Let's have a little fun and be positive....it's hot enough here at home and I really don't need all the extra heat! ;) *LOL*

First Challenge - there were 6 couples in DWTS. And yes, people in general have spent an inordinate amount of time slinging mud and insults in every direction possible. Why not try and find at least one POSITIVE thing to say about each one? Since I ran my mouth first...*LOL*

Evander and Edyta - John was right on this one. Evander's heart was as big as the rest of his body. Kudos to Edyta for her seemingly infinite energy and having it in her to take the ball and run, even in the face of some long odds.

Trista and Louis - Louis' reputation as a legend in the world of Latin dance is one well earned. And it was nice to see Trista overcome that initial uncertainty during the finale to produce a performance in the Rumba that painted a more accurate picture of her potential as a dancer.

Jonathan and Rachel - It was a pleasant surprise to see Jonathan's overall skill as a dancer given the fact that he is more a latin stylist. That tango routine - it was anything but "Toxic" and to this day, it still gives me a shiver. And what a fun Samba, blue feathers and all! (I've been down to Rio during Carnivale, and I can tell you that what Rachel wore that night is actually very TAME in comparison to some of what I saw...;)) The depth of ballet training shows well in Rachel- especially in relation to body lines, carriage and presentation.

Joey and Ashly - Sure, they may have not followed every suggestion the judges gave them. And they were more content in doing their own thing. But sometimes, it's the innovators, the dancers who follow their own lead that leave the biggest marks on their craft in the long run. THAT takes a lot of guts.

Kelly and Alec - I know a lot of people that have said that dancers are anything BUT athletes. They must have been on something when they said it, or just full of garbage to begin with. :) In terms of sheer athleticism and power, Kelly and Alec were simply in their own universe. Hey, her DANCING may not have been my cup of tea, but regardless of conflicting styles or philosophies I fell in love with and have a lot of respect for Kelly's pitbull, tie-a-knot-and-hang-on-tight, no surrender attitude.

John and Charlotte - Whether it's in general, or with the Standard routines in particular, Charlotte's abilities as a dancer and teacher are unsurpassed and really shone through. Combine that with John's seemingly innate ability to soak all that teaching up like a sponge and put it to use quickly, and what did I think I got? A gentle, yet powerfully flowing set of performances that left my jaw dropped and my mind wondering just where that undeniable chemistry came from. However, the term "No Fear" can apply just as well to them too. Honestly, how many people even thought that their freestyle routine was going to be what it turned out as? Way to take a step out of the box, and what a time to do it in.

See, I told y'all it wouldn't be that hard. ;) Give it a try, surprise me if you dare! *LOL*

BestOne76

PS- stay tuned for Part 2 of the Challenge! ;)

I second the motion that O'Hurley is fine keeping on keeping on.

Of COURSE K/A fans want him to make nice, but this is a network cheesefest that thrives on controversy, ABC - wittingly or un - stepped into a nice big one - all glitz, not substance, and I don't get why he should make nice. Why shouldn't he raise questions like every other reality show contestent, every other professional sports person? Lots of people who participate in performance sports and other sports bitch it up one side and down the other if they think anything fishy went on.

O'Hurley is just talking about what a LOT of people are thinking and saying. I don't think he's inciting anybody. If he made nice(er), I'd STILL think it's fishy, I'd still chat about it.

Not everybody is a big K/A fan, think they're adorable, found J&C subpar in the finale compared to K/A. In fact, a lot of not everybodys thought so. John O'H is not creating this disagreement.

Different participants can be called on a LOT of stuff. I question whether Trista really felt uptight about the rhumba, or if it was suggested to her because she's a famous "bride" and they wanted to bring her husband on camera, as they wanted to stick Evander in the ring, use Patrick Swayze as a gimmick, and have GH allow a crew and equipment into a GH rehearsal space. Which is to say, my main beef with Kelly is she's disingenous. She's totally married to this poor me, I have nothing but it won't get me down routine, even if it means not acknowledging certain things, like athleticism and flexibility - big advantages along with the size differential that she brought to the competition. As she talked about it, she brought nothing but disadvantages - we SAW that wasn't true. Because I saw that wasn't true, I expected more of her dancing. This "underdog all my life" has been a working actress since her early 20's, which is more than many people from PA and the Poconos can say. She was one of the few to segue from the defunct PC to many offers from other soap operas, so the underdog stuff seems to me to be a little suspect.

I think Kelly may have fallen on her face attempting even the first step J'O did in his freestyle dance. Don't know what it was called - lift the leg, angle the hip, pivot with the leg in that position, and then start a routine. John could not have done the acrobatics Kelly performed, but which has more to do with dancing? That's why I prefer John - in THIS event - and why many people are crying foul.

I'd rather watch Kelly act - if she had a good role - her GH role stinks. But this event, J'O was better throughout, including the end.

My take on the six "celeb" contestants is that J'Oh was the most complete package, Joey maybe had the most potential but he skated, and Kelly was kind of a hybrid - in the end she chose tricks over learning to dance. But she and Joey had a lot in common - both were more comfortable doing what they already knew how to do, and oriented their routines around that. John O'H actually learned something new, and did the thing he was competing in. He was the most authentic.

The three finalists, IMO, were lucky to be the best matches with their partners. Edyte had SO much energy - she's a female Alec - so sharp, fast, clean, strong - that it made Evander's not-unappealing mellow style look inept. Rachel had nice lines and was very strong, but IMO moved tentatively and slowly and her choreography wasn't challenging AND, worst of all, in heels she kind of overpowered her partner. Also, her partner was not the choreographer some others were. I LIKE Trista and I thought she was uptight beyond belief - not sexually, just a stiff mover. She had nice lines, but her back and neck were super tight when she moved, and she didn't know how to really move with the music - if the music stopped or shifted I think she'd have gritted that smile and kept on.

Alec was a super dancer - that was obvious, maybe too obvious vis a vis his partner, though he was also a canny choreographer. However, unlike Charlotte, who was a canny choreographer producing DANCE moves for her amateur other half, Alec was a canny choreographer who designed routines where Kelly didn't do a ton of dancing. I think despite his demeanor, SHE (Kelly) ran the show, and that's why their routines ended up as more stunt-driven or flexibility showcases than dance.

Ashley's paso doble rocked. The music for the Foxtrot wasn't great but it was do-able - more closed movements for them would have helped, but I don't know if they'd have won enough votes to make it to the finals, no matter what. Maybe Joey should have seemed more humble, more underdoggy, more nervous, instead of feeling - hey, I can KILL this competition.

John and Charlotte did the most, and to me, the best, dancing, and their routines made the most sense. Their paso was terrific, so was the Foxtrot (I LOVED their Foxtrot - it was gorgeous. Charlotte was right - they were in a zone that night)

Technically, not quite. Performance-wise, definitely. I enjoyed it tremendously and I give them props for not just stepping outside of their comfort zone, but absolutely crushing it underfoot. Obviously, YMMV.

If I were John, my deal with the 10s given to Kelly would be this:

I (that is, John) know the judges' scores have nothing to do with the final outcome. I am a pretty smart guy, after all. I know the rules and can do the math as well as anyone. So, what's left for me to strive for? What can I use as motivation? Why, winning the judges' vote perhaps? So, I work hard during the week and then go out there and give it my all. My partner and I do a great job on the quickstep, but then hear the judges start to lay the ground work for the "comeback kid" and start to become concerned about where this is headed. Still, we go out and just have fun with our freestyle. I am perhaps a bit surprised with the generous scores, but OK, it's not like we haven't received lots of 9s before so maybe the judges did really enjoy the performance as much as they said. But when the judges give a good, but obviously flawed, performance by my competitor straight 10s and gush over how *that* dance was the best of the series, I feel suckerpunched because it calls into question the validity of every score prior to that. I would wonder what the heck I had worked so hard for, if the judges' votes were predetermined to be in line with the "Rocky" story ABC had seemed so insistent on pushing.

So, yeah, I'd be a bit ticked -- not because I lost (because that was a foregone conclusion), but because it turned out that the show was never about dancing after all and that I, Joey, Rachel, Trista and Evander had been used simply as props in ABC's story.

[/channeling]*

*Again, this is just how *I* would have felt if it had happened to me.

I'll take up your challenge, BestOne76, but I can't comment on Trista and Evander because I never saw them :)

Rachel and Jonathan -- I loved Rachel's grace and posture. She was very elegant and Jonathan was so earnest and supportive. I think they really put a lot into developing the techniques that each dance required.

Joey and Ashley -- I found these two completely entertaining and too cute for words. I'd love to see them together on Broadway. They had tons of energy and enthusiasm. I think that with a bit of extra attention to posture, Joey could easily become a great ballroom dancer.

Kelly and Alec -- I give huge props to Kelly for setting her mind to the task and her determination. I admire Alec for never giving up on his partner. They had great chemistry and continued to adjust until they "fit" together as a strong team. They both are also too gorgeous for words.

John and Charlotte -- John threw himself 110% into this and I admire his ability to focus so completely on the task at hand. He could have simply relied on his strengths as a performer, but he chose to work extremely hard to learn not only to dance, but to lead a world champion partner smoothly and elegantly around the floor. Charlotte is simply an amazing teacher and a very classy lady who is full of warmth and humor. I'd love to hang with either of them. They made ballroom dancing look like *fun.*

Here it is....Part 2 of BestOne76's House of DWTS Fun!!

Imagine- you've just gotten lucky and have been told that YOU get to select the music for next season. (Hey, a girl can dream, can't she? ;)) What would be your song line-up?

BestOne's DWTS Music Mix

Waltz- "Something About the Way You Look Tonight" by Elton John

VWaltz- "Lady In Red" by Chris DeBurgh

Quickstep- Loved when John/Charlotte danced to "Let's Face the Music and Dance" and wouldn't change this one.

Tango- I don't know the name of the song, but the one they used during the famous tango scene in "Scent of A Woman" would be perfect.

ChaCha- "Smooth" by Rob Thomas and Carlos Santana

Samba- "Maria" by Ricky Martin

Rumba- "Have You Ever Really Loved A Woman?" by Bryan Adams

Paso Doble- Any orchestral arrangement of "Espana Cani" - but I'd let ALL couples use this one. :)

Jive- "Jump, Jive and Wail" by the Brian Setzer Orchestra

Foxtrot - "It Had to Be You" by Harry Connick Jr.

Personal Freestyle Choice - "What a Feeling" by Irene Cara - from the Flashdance soundtrack

Just thought I'd change the mood tonight and make it more light hearted fun. Let's try to have some fun with it, OK? :)

Later!
BestOne76

AND
Exactly.

Before the "10's", I think the audience enjoyed its role. Rachel? Bye bye. Sorry Bruno, she's going bye bye.

We're KEEPING Kelly and Alec. You judges can lump it.

BUT, we expected the judges to do their job and stay who they were, not suddenly try to take control from the audience. It was a buzz kill for many people (not K/A fans, obviously) It was pandering to the max, IMO, ABC deciding they had a story here, and encouraging the judges to fall in line.

The story backfired IMO. I think fans would have had more fun if the judges had been consistent, and awarded the best dancing as they had consistently throughout the comp (which means J&C) and then the audience came in with what THEY wanted.

The tens are what is making a lot of people p.o.'d. Not the win itself. It was ABC seizing control of the story back from the audience, co-opting the audience and pre-empting it. The audience was not going to "show up" the judges or DWTS, so DWTS beat the audience to the punch and pretended they would have crowned K/A no matter what the audience said. It backfired, IMO, and left a "feel bad" vibe instead of the plastic "feel good" artificial comeback kid narrative they were shaping.

Oh, please, can I change the conductor and "singer" (and I use that term very loosely) who botched this song so royally in the finale? Seriously. I haven't seen anyone else mention it, but the singer was so off key that I can't bear to watch the clip with the sound turned on. And the conductor dragged the tempo horribly. I give huge props to John for adjusting so well and staying with the music, even though the quickstep was supposed to be, you know, *quick* :P

I almost hope ABC's second run of DWTS tanks. What was a wonderful, fun, sparkly, cheesy, no-back-stabbing, entertainment pleasure has become a serious downer. Not because the audience chose Kelly and Alec, but because of the lack of good sportsmanship following defeat in a close contest.

Dominar - go ahead and change the orchestra if you like...:)

I'd just use the music by the artist who originally wrote it, the way they originally wrote it. ;)