This is just how he came across to me. I love him madly.

Awww I am so glad to hear Charlotte say this. I was watching E! and they talked to John after he lost and he was saying that even though he was smiling on the outside his heart was broken that he didn't win. That just reinforced my hate for Kelly/Alec and the judges. I think it's going to take one or two celebs that I LOVE for me to watch the show again.

I just happened to catch an appearance by John O'Hurley on today's Good Morning America.

That unexpected sighting just lit me up with a grinning and giddy happiness that would not quit.

He and Charlotte were apparently judging some GMA dance contest. Both of them were looking great. I so hope that John's time on DWtS will eventually result in the opportunity for leading man roles. And for Joey McIntyre, too. There also will, no doubt, be many new doors opening for the talents of Charlotte and Ashly and Rachel so YaY!

Just caught John and Charlotte on The View. He was obviously disappointed but was, as usual, charming and gracious. They did a dance, and talked about the characters they used each week for the different dances.

Despite the exposure, I don't think John O'Hurley will ever be a leading man. Unless they are looking for an Inspector Clouseau-like bumbling comic figure. I know he honed his dramatic skills on soaps, but he's played the Peterman guy for too long and that seems to be all he does now. He had the Peterman style mugging all throughout DwtS.

He's in that one commercial. I have no idea what it is even for because it's All! About! Him! With mugging. It's funny, but I think he was a poor choice for the commercial because obviously I can't remember anything about it except his funny faces and deadpan style of talking.

Unfortunately, I don't see John as a leading man for any movie or TV show. He's a silver fox and all, but not in the age range that Hollywood likes. I think he'd do well in character roles, however, and he could be asked to host something like DwtS, or continue stage work, which doesn't seem to practice ageism as much.

I'm sure John, like any actor, would be glad of the work. He's a great comic/character actor and should certainly get more attention as a result of his exposure on this show. Which would be great not only for him, but for the new fans he's gained!

This ageism with O'Hurley is sad. The guy chooses not to dye his hair, so he's an old man? The guy is 49 years old--he's 14 years younger than Harrison Ford, 12 years younger than Michael Douglas, and a mere 6 years older than Tom Cruise!

I don't think it's just the white hair. I think it's the attitude and demeanor. Add to that the fact that he excelled best at the traditional ballroom dances, which people seem to associate more with the older set than the younger, suxier Latin dances.

Steve Martin had white hair very early on in life as well, and I didn't think he was considered an "old man". It's all about the attitude.

I wouldn't count John O'Hurley out of the leading man sweepstakes. The kind of intensity of enthusiasm he inspired among many of the Dancing With the Stars audience and their unabashed ardency of affection are not what is usually relegated to the supporting character actor.

Also from what I've read and heard in actual comments, his good looks and appeal are intergenerational and span a lot of age demographics. The fact that he thankfully hasn't messed with his looks (surgery etc.) and hair give him even more masculine appeal -- in a Richard Gere sort of way. (Although I think a permanent personal trainer and a bit more weight loss, if I may be so bold, would be good.)

And his humor is an added bonus that cannot be overestimated, IMO. It brings zing to his very presence and is something that could be a signature for taking his career in a particular direction if that were what he wanted.

Watching videos and dvds and being able to look back at the work of such big personality/charismatic actors such as Cary Grant and Jimmy Stewart etc. just makes me want to be able to see John O'Hurley get the opportunity to work and make an impact up there on the big screen.

Baby boomers apparently still have the biggest numbers population wise. Maybe he could bring some of them back into the movie theatres which have recently been experiencing a shrinking attendance. Along with the much younger fans he has acquired. Especially if he were paired up with a younger actress -- as Gere was in Unfaithful (Diane Lane) and Shall we Dance (Jennifer Lopez).

I realized when watching John and Charlotte on GMA (which I thought was rather odd, considering the winners had not had their spot rescheduled), that I find O'Hurley's on-screen persona, at least the limited amount of it I have seen in relation to DWTS, to be kind of grating. On DWTS, it seemed to me much of his dancing was a big act, centered on mugging for the camera until he got back to the microphone and the jokes.

I know ballroom is majorly dramatic (i.e., Alec and Kelly's on-floor faux-love), but there's theatrical and then there's camp, and I sort of think O'Hurley was a bit too much on the camp side while dancing.

I do think he'd be good as a host of the show, though, since he could very well do what Tom does, and would have some experience of being a competitor to make it interesting.

Just my opinion...

I find John charming and fun. I second KittyBiddie's suggestion that he host the next season of DWTS. He has much more stage presence than the current host and maybe he'll even grace us with a dance.

I think John is cute and adorable and charming but romantic leading man a la Richard Gere? I don't think so. Gere has a long career as sexy hunk behind him. I don't get the same vibe at all with John -- and actually I was pretty squicked out by his straddlin' freestyle with Charlotte. I'd totally buy him as a fatherly type or wacky sidekick.

Absolutely. JOH is no Richard Gere or Harrison Ford. He is however a Steve Martin type. I could see him in something along the lines of "Father of the Bride".

Did anyone catch the real wardrobe malfunction on GMA when JOH was judging the dance contest? The second couple up had this girl wearing a unitard and when she did her last move (leg up over the shoulder and back bend ala Ashly's last move in the jive), her breast came out of her top.

I wished I could have caught that GMA segment today! Did anyone watch Live with Regis and Kelly? Kelly Monaco was the guest today.

I taped Regis and Kelly today, and unless I fast-forwarded too much, I didn't see any Kelly Monaco.

Kelly will be on next Monday the 18th.

I turned 29 last week, and since I'm now too old to prattle on, I'll keep this brief:

Alec is DISGUSTING. Like every guido who oozed Drakkar through the links of his gold chain necklace with his pumped-up low-rider blasting out its bass in my hometown in Jersey in '93.

John? *swoon* He's charming, attractive, hot (hotter still when he lost that weight!) and debonair. And did you see how Charlotte gazed at him during and after every dance? Talk about a ship... She made it easy to see how a gorgeous, young thing would be smitten with him onscreen.

So: John. Romantic lead. Whether it's goofy against Sandra Bullock or passionate May-December against Kate Bosworth, I am All. Over. It.

Random "caught it on the replay" moment - Check out Evander in the background when Joey and Ashly are doing their dance in the finale. Evander's just groovin' it up - it's soooo cute!!!

I would watch anything that had John as a romantic lead in it. I'm kind of tired of pretty boy leads who are way too young for me.

I spent my morning watching the fan made videos of Kelly & Alec over and over!

I agree HillMama, they generate so much heat and passion between and for each other like they're just about to have a torrid affair on the dance floor. I mean they have better chemistry than some of the pro's I've seen! Not that those people couldn't generate heat, but more like they're individually hot and you're watching two hot people dance.

But with Kelly & Alec you have the extra element of palpable unresolved sexual tension! I am such a fangirl of the angsting, aching and longing of Kelly & Alec forbidden love! Squeeee!

I also love the music video of the rehearsal footage. I didn't realize how much time they spent falling on top of each other.

Kelly: Look I lost my balance, let me grab you all over your body so I can fall all over you!
Alec: Good idea! Let me wrap my arms around you so when you fall to the floor, I'll just fall right on top of you.

Hee-hee. I've played this game before, you silly lovers.

I think the ultimate fangirl rehersal moment is in the finale. It's the part where Kelly is playing "duck, duck, goose" and Alec reaches out to kinda grab/tickle her waist and Kelly pulls away. It was totally flirty and then followed by Kelly flashing us all with her rainbow bright boy shorts.

And yes, Kelly Alec and I are all 7th graders again. [/fangirl]

Whenever I saw Alec I had the urge to sing "Rico Suave". He just looked THAT creepy and nasty! I would LOVE to see John in something else as well(I would love it to have dancing involved) oh and can Charlotte be his leading lady(I mean she's pretty enough) and I loved their chemistry.

See, that's what I loved about Evander and why I voted for him while he was still in the competition - he knew he wasn't ever going to be the greatest dancer in the competition, I think, but he just wanted to get his groove on and have fun with a pretty lady who's gyrating all around him. He was just so happy all the time. He just made me smile a lot watching him and Edyta.

Then followed by a big grin from Alec who had the best view ;)

I also love all their ending segments. My favorite by far is the ending to the Rumba when he nuzzles her from behind, burries his face in her hair, then when the music ended, you can see him partially offscreen kissing her hand.

Alec also looked mighty hot at the ending for the Paso Doble -- they look like the cover of a Harlequin novel, and the ending side by side split for the Foxtrot (those buns!). [shamed]Sorry Alec, I know you're a Berkeley graduate and not just a piece of meat.[/shamed]


I totally see your point Enigmatics! Though I myself love the pretty boys, I appreciate John's appeal and the fangirl love for him :)

You know that's why John & Char always remind me of those regal couples from old Hollywood movies. John is a lot like those leading men back in the day, when they were not the pretty boys, but mature men with an air of sophistication, debonaire and smooth. They know how to hold a woman and dance with her across the floor in elegant style.

John also has the old school leading man built, with the manly barrel-chest and the strong jaw. It's interesting how the leading man body has changed throughout the years -- i.e. Tarzan for instance.

Well, Sandra Bullock maybe but Kate Bosworth? Kate Bosworth is 22 years old. I mean, I know the Tony Randall/Anna Nicole stuff happens in real life but my reaction is still just ... yuck.

All this time I just assumed Alec was gay, at least that's the vibe I got.

Alec is hot but those comments were so worth choking on my bagel.



Well, I wouldn't want Evander as my dancing partner for a show like this. But I bet he would be a blast at clubs and weddings. At least he's got rhythm compared to other guys I know.

Whoever teamed up Alec with Kelly, and John with Charlotte, was brilliant. They should hopefully do as well pairing up people for the next edition. Alec is hot without his awful makeup, IMO...plus he's got a great smile when he shows it. His face is so much better when not staring stone cold into the camera.

I have to say I REALLY enjoyed the chemistry between Ashleigh and Joey they were cute together and I loved that she went to visit his family.

And this was refreshing to watch, and was in stark contrast to Louis (who gave me the creeps).



Oh, WORD to all of this!



Sniff. Same here. I'm not committing to not watching the show again, but I'm going to just have to wait and see who the 'celebs' are next time around. Overall, I love the show, but I was really disappointed with the ending. Ah, well. Sniff.

This came from a gossip site:



This makes alot of sense - ABC you bastards

I just don't buy all of the consipracy theories or what was attributed to John, Charlotte, and Rachel in the above gossip post was said at all.

To address the conspiracy theory: IMHO Kelly did improve. Also if there was a problem in the judging in my opinion it was the judges giving John and Charlotte all 9's for their freestyle (I was rooting for J&C until that beyond awful freestyle). That wasn't an all 9's dance. Neither was Kelly and Alec's an all 10's dance but I felt their freestyle was better than John and Charlotte's so when J&C got all 9's there was nothing left to give Kelly and Alex but all 10's. Honestly if any of this gossip is true it makes me look at Charlotte and John in a bad light - not Kelly and Alec. Because in that gossip they come off as very sore losers who are trying to promote a conspiracy theory in order to justify their loss. Same with Rachel Hunter. Also as someone pointed out the judges vote didn't matter in the last episode anyway (as someone who is close to the show should know which puts into doubt the whole post). The viewer vote would have been the tie breaker and Kelly & Alex won that - whether they got more phone or internet votes doesn't matter because they won the viewer vote. If John and Charlotte won the viewer vote they would have been the ones who won the competition. Finally whoever wrote that lost me at daytime soap sows. Just because someone watches a daytime drama doesn't make then a cow or a sow or any other number of derogatory terms.

By the way - no woman is a star on GH. They all are there just to serve Sonny, Jason and Luke.

One other thing - I imagine the odds of the couples tying on just the viewer vote are not good at all. One of them would have won it if it was just by one vote. I also doubt that all phone votes went John and Charlotte while all internet votes went to Alec & Kelly. It may have leaned that way but that is a pretty big generalization which also makes me doubt the veracity of this gossip especially since this gossip has no sources but contestants who lost supposedly crying conspiracy (not that I believe they did but if they did then what proof is that beyond their take on things?) Now if the sources was an ABC memo that said promote this girl then that might have some merit but the losers' opinion (again if they said those things at all) is just that an opinion of someone who lost and felt they should have won which is hardly an unbiased source

Wait a second, so who exactly wrote the "tell all" two posts above this one? Is it just another viewer on another site? Because it's awfully biased and I don't think it's something that should be immediately accepted as fact. Especially if it comes from a gossip site and it's all based on thirdhand "friend of a friend" knowledge.

I have never watched General Hospital, and I registered on ABC.com just so I could vote for Rachel Hunter. When Rachel went out, I voted for Kelly. I guess I don't fit the pattern of "all the soap fans are already on the ABC site". It's not that hard to register.

I don't believe all the conspiracy that ABC wanted to make Kelly win. If ABC really wanted to promote a person, I don't understand why it wouldn't have been Trista. They have bent over backwards so many times for this woman. She's been on at least three of their shows (Bachelor I, Bachelorette I, the horrid Wedding). She was the only one who was allowed to pimp their spouse during the training segments. She was the only one whose spouse was shown in the audience in the early episodes. If ABC were going to rig anything, they would have rigged it in favor of the supposed America's Sweetheart. At least that makes more sense to me.

I think if this report is true, then Charlotte comes across as a very sour sore loser. It's a bit dramatic for her to tell Carrie Ann, Len and Bruno that they have diminished her as a dancer, don't you think? She knew exactly what she would be getting into when she agreed to serve as a partner for this show. What if she had been paired with Evander and they went out first? Seems to me that she is pretty high maintenance if her complaint is that they made her look bad. The only way she would have been happy is if she and Peterman had won.

I also thought that Kelly vastly improved as a dancer. Look at her first dance and that awkward way in which she leaned back for a dip. Then look at her freestyle dance and the way she approaches moves with confidence and sux.

To me Kelly was as sloppy on her last dance as she was on one of the first dances she did. Also at the end Alec dropped her and you can clearly see that she needed to look at Alec to catch up and follow the moves. To me Kelly and Alec weren't Suxy they were SUCKY.

I agree that if the above post is true it makes John and Charlotte look like sore losers and diminishes their reputations, not Kelly and Alec's.

The reason John lost is because his FANS sat on their hands and didn't vote - and that's THEIR fault, not Kelly's, not ABC's, and not the judges.

I'm more than tired of the conspiracy bullshit. If ABC wanted to promote Kelly Monaco so damn much maybe they'd give her something to do on the show she's actually on... but that might require them to actually DO something about the sorry state of their favored daytime show (losing ratings every week is not a good thing at all.) Not to mention that her character is not a big favorite on the show anyway. It took a good year and a half to get her to a point where they didn't loathe the sight of her. Yes, Caleb/Livvie was a huge popular couple on Port Charles but that show has long been cancelled.

Now, since our friends in the know here have mentioned repeatedly that actual ballroom competitions are pretty much all political can somone explain the logic that by playing a political game on DwtS the judges have ruined their credibility on the dance circuit? One would think they just cemented it by this article's line of thinking.

Also previously it had been mentioned that Charlotte had signed on with DwtS because it was anti-ballroom establishment and meant to be light and airy and fun so her going up to anyone and saying that her own credibility as a dancer and a coach was tarnished after this is equally ludicrous.

As for Kelly's overwhelming online popularity... the ABC boards were basically suggesting she was trading sexual favors in order to get better scores from the judges so I don't see that particular group being the ones that made her the consistent winner. And several people here have explained why they liked or didn't like certain couples or dances and why they voted the way they did.

Is it really that hard to believe that some people liked Kelly and Alec because they liked their chemistry and the way they danced? I was thrilled with the last show. Either way it may have gone I would have been happy. I loved John/Charlotte and loved Kelly/Alec. In my opinion, it's all this post series whining about conspiracies and the "ABC princess" (yeah right she's popular with the brass now I'm sure but she wasn't that much of a favored one beforehand) is really taking the lustre off of a fun show.

It was fun and horrible costumes and even worse music and dancing and glitter and elegance and suxiness. This is cheap gossip and doesn't make anyone look good.

I'm taking that unsubstantiated gossip as fan-fic. During the glimpses I've had of John's and Charlottes's media appearances following the finale, they've been nothing but smiling and upbeat and happy about the experience. They've also been very complimentary toward the other contestants.

Being competitive is to be commended, but being a sore loser is something else. I don't think such shabby behavior would be characteristic of either John or Charlotte.

I would have very much wanted them to win but congrats and good wishes to Kelly and Alec. Hopefully, everyone associated with the show will go on to reap rewards from their participation.

That's how I'm taking it, too, calli, until I hear with my own two ears otherwise.

Binks,blackwing,barkley,Dandesun word to your posts.

All this conspiracy shit is getting on my last damn nerve. Kelly won. Get the hell over it. That gossip post is bullshit. If anyone has ever ventured over to the ABC board prior to DWTS you would have clearly saw that posters have a field day making lewd comments and hateful posts about Kelly day in and day out. No way in hell did those same people turn around and vote for her to stay in the competition.

If she won the internet vote then I would also assume she won the phone vote as well. Why would her fans just stick to the online voting when they could vote for her at least 5 times by phone. I have read on other boards where people voted for her on house phones and cell phones numerous times and then voted for her online. The same could be said for the other contestants as well.

If the brass at ABC just wanted to showcase Kelly from the start then they did a bad job of it. Kelly didn't even want to be on the show. They had a hard time getting anybody to agree to do the thing in the first place. Why ruin it by fixing it? Like we have pointed out numerous times already, Kelly would have won regardless of what scores she got on the finale show. Kelly brought in the viewers just like John. People just seemed to like her better so they voted more often for her. That isn't her fault.

I thought I had heard/read previously that Kelly was a last-minute replacement for another star who had pulled out shortly before the show started. Anyone else hear that?

Ditto to Binks' post. The judges had painted themselves into a corner, discounting what Kelly and Alec could/would do, when they gave John and Charlotte all 9s. The scoring is all messed up and fallible and the standards are awfully amorphous: they aren't judging based upon standard ballroom rules, as I understand, and were they to do that, all of the couples would be getting much lower scores than 8-10s. Plus (and this has been a disappointment to me in the series), the couples don't do much in the way of basic steps -- so much of the dancing is just showy moves, spins, lifts, gymnastics, and shimmying to disguise not being able to get the basics down well. You couldn't really tell one dance from another (to my unexpert eyes). So I don't even know how you begin judging these routines. There is a lot of "well, they're doing as good as can be expected" fudging of scores going on. And it has that element of diving/gymnastics-scoring in it as well -- should a more technically difficult, but sloppier routine get higher marks than an easier routine that is performed more nearly flawlessly? Is one couple's much slower-than-required footwork worthy of a higher score than another couple's bobble on a landing from a difficult lift? Do you judge the performance of the couple as a whole, or just the performnace of the "star"?

I'm in the camp that think John/Charlotte gave an entertaining last dance, but I wasn't "wowed," largely b/c I didn't see much fancy footwork. Kelly/Alec had a much more energetic and "show-stopping" performance, I thought. Better choreography, better moves. And unless they cast a young man "star" with some dancing/gymnastics experience, I think a woman celeb will always have a better chance of winning, b/c what her partner (lifts, spins) can do will make the routine more impressive.



Charlotte's fame and reputation has undoubtedly been greatly enhanced by being on this show, and by being on it for six weeks. I had never heard of her before. But now, she's been making the talk show rounds and has gained a modicum of celebrity in her own right, outside the ballroom dancing world. So she has much broader fame than ever. Plus, I seriously doubt the high-caliber ballroom dancing competitors she teaches give any amount of legitimacy or weight to DWTS results. They can see the shows and judge for themselves, and not take Carrie and Bruno's word for it, as they have no ballroom background.


Plus, I find it odd that ABC's PR machine, in scheming their Machiavellian promotion of their "princess" couldn't bother to rechedule her GMA appearance, esp. in the week devoted to the GMA dance competition. John and Charlotte were there Monday, being interviewed, dancing, and judging the competition. Kelly/Alec weren't on Regis, and Kelly won't be there until next week. As I know, Leno is the extent of their post-win publicity tour.

Kelly was the last one added to the show, and I think she was pressured into it by her bosses at ABC because they couldn't find anyone else. One celeb had dropped out and they needed someone. The same for Evander. He was also a last minute addition.

If ABC wanted to showcase Kelly, she would have been the first one on board. They would have run promos during the soaps even if there had been no soap star on the show.

I feel really sorry for Kelly. She's been trashed and I don't think she deserves it.

I don't think Kelly deserves to be trashed at all. She's not even the most popular cast member of GH so why should ABC promote her above Trista? ABC thought they just had a fluffy show to throw on the air and fill up space. I can't believe that people took the gossip seriously. When you have any case of audience voting you will always get a popularity contest going on. People who bother to vote online or phone in tend to be in the younger demographic who are used to doing it for American Idol. Plus, that gossip doesn't do credit to John and Charlotte's reputations as classy people. I don't believe that "friend of a friend told so-and-so".

What's amazing to me is how some people are taking this show so seriously. So what if John/Charlotta got screwed? Is that 10 dollar disco-ball trophy so important?

Imagine if the internet existed back in the days of Battle of the Network Stars. There would have been hundreds of vitriolic posts from Lou Ferrigno fans bashing Michael Landon fans over the results of the Simon Says competition. "Lou Ferrigno is partially deaf! There's no way he could have clearly heard the instructions! This show was totally biased and I'm never watching again!!!!"

This rumor isn't worth stressing over, it is clearly the product of someone's imagination. First of all, the scoring system, weird though it was, has been in place since the first episode and I'm sure Charlotte and John were well aware that the audience vote was everything in this show. If we were able to figure that out, certainly the competitors did, hence Rachel's expressing worry that she wasn't popular with the audience. So Charlotte and John went into this knowing it was a popularity contest and only the non-expert opinions counted, so it's unlikely they would express dismay at the outcome when they knew the show was not so much about talent as popularity.

Kelly, by virtue of being seen on TV 5 days a week currently was bound to have a built-in fanbase that all of the others, not being in the public eye at present, would have to overcome. Even those who don't like her character on GH may have wanted to vote for her because they liked the actress or wanted to show support for ABC Daytime. All the others on the show who didn't have such a base were well aware that they'd have to overcome her established fans. Everyone went into this knowing that the fan vote was key, so complaining that one 'star' had more current fans to vote for them makes no sense.

Charlotte has a very long history of being a good competitor. This show has given her recognition that all her years of competitive ballroom dancing didn't. She's lost competitions before, ones that were not solely based on voting done by non-experts. Certainly she was a gracious loser in the past, it doesn't make sense that she would risk her newfound fame by being a poor sport about a competition that she knew was not under the judges' control, and over which she had very little control herself.


Finally, though we've never heard the totals for this show, all other shows which rely on both phone voting as well as internet indicate that phone votes are by far the most common. From the way the voting on this show was done, allowing only one internet vote per addy but 5 votes per telephone, it doesn't seem likely that Kelly would've been able to win the fan vote with only internet votes to back her.

Hee-hee. WORD peppypen and calli! One way you can tell someone's really bad fan-fic writing is that all the plot points just neatly fall into place!

Not only did the fly over hear John, it over heard Charlotte, and to top it all off it over heard the machinations of the ABC executives before, during and after the run of the series! And apparently have seen all the phone totals... The CIA should hire this friend of a friend of a friend ;)

Someone should tell that 'gossip-writer' a kid can write a more believable conspiracy theory! All the silly extrapolations at the end scream of fan-wanking. I love John and Charlotte too much to believe they would be such sore losers. I always see them as gracious people so this whole thing is really just undermining them more than anything. Everyone loves Charlotte, and I could not once imagine she would utter such diva-ish statements.

I already devoted too much time responding to this gobblygook, I rather bask in my Kelly/Alec ship and hop into my John/Char ship occasionally :)

I loved Battle of the Network Stars and you are exactly right. I remember Robert Conrad and Mr. T in the finals of the Simon Says and Robert Conrad had to knock the battery off of Mr. T's shoulder (it was a spoof of a battery commercial Conrad was in).

It's just kind of funny how the person who wrote this wanted to paint Kelly and ABC in a bad light and ended up hurting the people he was trying to "help", John and Charlotte.

ETA: Kelly, Alec, John, Charlotte, Carrie Ann, and Tom Bergeron will be on Larry King Live Wednesday Jul 13th.

Kelly along with Alec, Joey, John, Charlotta,Carrie Ann and Tom Bergeron will be guests on Larry King Live Wednesday July 13th.

You beat me barkley.

It looks like they are going to be on for the whole hour.

Sorry dr gailey - we get our news from the same source!

Darn I don't have CNN... grumble*grumble.

I hope one of you ladies can write a bit of synopsis when the show airs... pretty please :)

Maybe someone could suggest to ABC that they produce a special exhibition and bring back all our dance couples to perform! Something where they can just enjoy and not get too stressed about the competition. I think they will all dance much better in a relaxed atmosphere of an exhibition -- kinda like the encore but that was way too short.