I just got done watching the 2nd episode of ABC's Eyes, and I've decided that I love it because Tim Daly's character, Harlan Judd, is such a total bastard.

It made me think of how unusual I feel in that I'm a big fan of what's called the Anti-Hero, but Maw and Paw Nielson never seem in tune with me on that.

Are there other people out there who have loved Dabney Coleman every single time he's played a son-of-a-bitch? Who want more shows about Grumpy Old Men who shake their fists at those darned kids and are unapologetic, or who enjoy it when their heroes lie, cheat, and steal... as long as they do so charmingly and without major injury to an innocent?

C'mon fans of the anti-hero, speak up! Also, help me remember a few more anti-heroes who actually made it to TV.

Wikipedia on anti-heroes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-hero

I like the idea of the antihero (though that's not always the right word -- sometimes he's just a dislikable character with nothing heroic about him; and the Tim Daly character is actually on the side of good in general, he's just totally unsentimental in how he goes about it), but we seldom get it on American TV.

For instance, all the Dabney Coleman characters (whether Buffalo Bill, or Slap Maxwell, or the Madman of the People) have been softened, showing that he has a "warmer" side or whatever, and that's when I start losing interest. If you're going to have someone like that, let him be what he is. The best examples of the genre in the US that I can think of are the Bundys on Married with Children, who were pretty irredeemable (and one reason I was glad that show was on the air, even though I never felt like watching it), and perhaps the Bluths on Arrested Development, though it's hard to cite anyone in the ensemble as the hero (Michael comes closest, as he means well but isn't very good at it).

British TV does far better with this sort of thing. It's given us Basil Fawlty, David Brent (of The Office), and Gordon Brittas.

My favorite anti-hero on TV today: Al Swearengen on Deadwood. A more venal, repulsive character never existed (or so I thought after watching the first few episodes), but by this point in the series I watch in admiration. Had you told me back then that I would approve of him suffocating a man (the brain tumor-impaired minister) I would have thought you were nuts. And I am rooting for him to smash the opposition filtering into town. The genius of Ian McShane and of the writers of Deadwood is just amazing.
Dabney Coleman has always been a favorite of mine, too.

Oooooh, cool topic. Just wandered over here from the Eyes board....

Submitted for your anti-approval:

Dr. Gregory House (my current fave), and Dr. Doug Ross (who was really unlikeable, albeit terribly charming, during those first two seasons of ER).

House is a great example. In some ways, so is his girlie competition over on UPN, Veronica Mars, because as many people on that board have pointed out, she often does some pretty unscruplous things to solve her cases, and the show is better for it.

Heck, same timeslot--Dr. Cox on Scrubs (although he's arguably only a supporting character).

Tuesday at 9PM is kind of anti-hero central.

My vote goes to Ken Titus, the father from the show Titus.

Stacy Keach took the character and portrayed him as a magnificent bastard you just had to love. God, I miss that show!

I'd add Jaye Tyler from the dear, departed Wonderfalls. She was so prickly, particularly in those first episodes. I think she would've gotten less anti and more hero had the show gone on beyond its first season. As it was, even in the unaired episodes, she was doing things less by compulsion and more of her own free will.

Edmund Blackadder. I could go on all day, but a good example is the time he tried to fire his loyal servant, Baldrick... Baldrick protested "But I've been in your service since I was two and a half!", to which Blackadder replied "That must be why I'm so utterly sick of the sight of you."

Ah, Blackadder. What a magnificent bastard.

Once again trying to fire Baldrick:

Baldrick: But I've been in your family since 1557.
Blackadder: So has syphilis. Now get out.

A big "word" to House, but you know who I thought of when I read the thread title? George Constanza. I mean, he'd be doing the most despicable things, and you just wanted him to get away with it.

I submit, for the record, Jack Bristow.

Someone's hurting your daughter? Plug 'em. (see also: Haladki, Steven and Derevko, Irina)

Someone's life in danger? Beat 'em. (see also, Tippen, Will)

Someone in the sights of a possibly evil, deadly, supercovert government organization? Kill 'im. For a bit. (see also: Sloane, Arvin)

I'm just sayin'.

So with you folks on both Edmund Blackadder and Veronica Mars.

Blackadder has no conscience whatsoever and is comletely lacking in the milk of human kindness. He's deliciously wrong. He cheats, he lies, he mistreats his servant and insults his friends to their faces. His wit is painfully accurate and he never ever gets the girl. I adore Blackadder.

Veronica Mars is another brilliant character, if a more serious one. She's smart, she's funny, she's determined, she's loyal, she's generous and she's brave. There's so much to admire about her. OTOH, she's insecure, devious, slightly ruthless, resentful, and inclined to use her friends as minions. She flouts authority at every turn. Her determination sometimes tumbles over the cliff into pure stubbornness. And that chip on her shoulder is going to take someone's eye out, someday. I'm crazy about the girl!

Hyde from That 70's Show. To me he's always been kind of an ass especially to Eric and Kelso but I liked him until he started dating Jackie. UNFORGIVEABLE!

Word on George Constanza, Ken Titus and Dr. Cox (genius!) And Doug Ross. Oh, I forgot the best one, Lex.

Here's a second (or third, fourth, whatever) to Dr. Greg House. He is/has done/will be:

- Extremely rude to patients (his own and others), fellow doctors, and his superiors.
- Addicted to Vicodin, which he has admitted and has no intentions of quitting.
- Sexually harasses his female colleague and boss on a regular basis. He even joked about sexually harassing a male colleague on the most recent new episode.
- Makes occasional racial epithets to his African-American colleague.
- Loves soap operas and his Gameboy almost to a fault.
- Many of his medical decisions are borderline or outright unethical.
- Personal grooming is at a bare minimum (but oddly, this adds to his appeal).
- Lied to a transplant committee about a patient's buliemia to get her on a transplant list.
- Accepted a vintage Corvette as a "thank-you" from the mob after "forgetting" to note a patient's diagnosis of Hepatitis C on his chart.

But the guy is funny as hell and, to those of us who work with the public, says to his patients exactly what's on his mind and oftentimes, exactly what they deserve.

syone26

Is the Lex you meant the one from The Tribe? If so, I utterly agree. He treats women appallingly, he sells contraband (well anything he can find), and he's had just quite a few wives.

And he's not even 21 yet!!


I love him.

(and if that's not the Lex you meant, then I add him to the list!)

I'd say HBO has a lock on the anti-heros.

You've got Tony Soprano and friends- a bunch of greedy, racist, sexist, murderers who've become pop-culture icons.
Even the women are a bunch of hypocritical delusional gold-diggers, often with a rosary in one hand and a "fell off a truck" diamond bracelet in the other.
But yet many of the characters are smart, loyal, loving, and sympathetic.

Keller and many of the OZ guys are another example.

Hell, don't stop with George, everyone on Seinfeld qualifies!

JR Ewing is another one. He's often classified as a pure villain. However, the deep love he has for his family and the lengths he'll go to to help them out, even when the help isn't wanted, pulls him up to anti-hero for me.

I would like to nominate Sheriff Lucas Buck of the sorely missed "American Gothic".


I admire Veronica Mars for all of the above mentioned attributes but would love her solely for her ability to triumph over the nasty girls.


I did a five day marathon of the first season of "Deadwood". Al is amazing and awful.

It's interesting that "Eyes" started this thread, because one of my favorite anti-heroes was Adrian Pasdar in "Profit" which was created by one of the producers of "Eyes"'

Tim Daly's character is Mother Theresa compared to Jim Profit. My other nominee would be Jay Mohr's Peter Dragon in "Action." Not only did he have no redeeming qualities, he knew it and reveled in it.

Desperate Housewives' Gabrielle.

She's an adulteress. She's technically a pedophile. She's partly responsible for the death of her mother-in-law. And damn it, I just want her to be happy.

Heck, DH's Bree qualifies too.

She's shallowly obsessed with propriety--of the fake annoying Stepford variety. She makes an art form of being overly prim. She's militant and often stereotypically extreme in her conservatism. She covered up her son's role in what, technically, might still be termed manslaughter, even if Mama Solis kind of died after waking back up. She's capable of being pretty cruel, when it suits her. And yet, she's also the best character on the show.

I know it's painfully unoriginal coming from me, but Firefly really had some great anti-heroes. They even had a preacher who shot people in the kneecaps. The best out of all the characters was Jayne. He was driven by money and his sex drive, didn't care about anyone but himself, and even tried to sell out two of his crew members. I think Mal would have been far more anti-hero if FOX didn't freak out over the idea of a main character who was lacking in the morality department.

Along with aforementioned Jaye Tyler from Wonderfalls I'd also like to make an honorable mention of Basil Fawlty form Fawlty Towers. I guess you could call him the "hero" since he does run the place...hmmmm or would that be Sybil?

Marshall from Alias!

How in sin does Marshall Flinkman qualify as an anti-hero? Unless he's changed a LOT since the end of Season Two (roughly the point at which that show's plotlines stretched my credulity past it's breaking point).

Kerr Avon from Blake's 7. He tried to kill his own crewmate (Vila) in order to lighten the load on a starship that was having trouble reaching escape velocity. He did kill his former leader (Blake) when he thought the man had betrayed him. He didn't give a damn about anything if it didn't further his own plans. And yet, somehow in the end, he still managed to make the universe a better place.

syone26 are you talking about Lex Luthor? True he is an anti-hero in that he tries to do good in decidedly anti-heroic ways. And you knew that he'd never end up the hero in the end but you rooted for the woobie anyway. But, his father Lionel is truly the magnificent bastard for which you seek. Now, granted, I've not watched Smallville for quite some time now due the the rampant Mary Sue-ish!PinkPwinceth!Lana but those two were the ones I watched for. Lionel's relish of evil was truly delicious.

I wonder if there are categories of anti-hero?

You've got...
...the amoral opportunists/rat bastards who are nevertheless charming and funny......
...the grumpy curmudgeons who's world weariness sparks something in us...
...the (barely) reformed criminals who are forced to work for the good guys...
...[variant of last] the damned soul who is shooting for redemption...
...the "good people who do bad things for good reasons"...

Am I missing any? Of course there's a lot of crossover.

Here's a nice article on the best anti-heroes of all time, the nastiest of the bunch being Tyr from Andromeda.

http://www.roguecinema.com/article178.html

The problem with Tyr is that he was busy being stuck on a crappy show.

Yes, I meant Lex Luthor. Word, on Lucas Black (loved him!). Word, on Bree!

I gotta add Archie Bunker, I hated and loved him at the same time. I hated him because he was a total ass to his wife, he's a racist and a total homophobe. Yet, I couldn't help but love him because he was so delusional and he said what was on his mind. I admire that.



Even though he is supposed to be the a straight-up hero, I think Clark Kent of Smallville has become one of the above. I still love him even though he can be a total ass sometimes.

Well, I think the prototypical "good person who does bad things for good reasons" of the past few years would have to be Jack Bristow. Think of JUST the last episode of Alias. He lies to, uses and manipulates his own daughter seemingly without conscience, but then he risks (and possibly ends, sooner or later) his own life her her. Go back in time a bit to when she was a child, and he was willing to have her programmed like a bloody robot, but at the same time when he DOES save her life this last time he doesn't even take credit--he INSISTS on it being a secret.

That's an anti-hero.

Benito, I agree that there are most definitely anti-hero categories. Simply by using the wikipedia definition you offered when you created this thread, you could mix and match heroic and non-heroic qualities to come up with lots of anti-hero hybrids. Of your five categories I think the last three are the strongest; those all feature characters who are consciously choosing to do or be good on a consistent basis.

The other two categories? Not so sure. Is being "charming and funny" really enough to offset a character's amorality or rat bastardliness? In other words, are "charming and funny" really heroic qualities? Or do they just make a character entertaining to watch?

Same thing with "the grumpy curmudgeons who's world weariness sparks something in us." To qualify as an authentic anti-hero, the grumpiness/curmudgeonliness/world weariness has to be augmented by some other truly heroic quality. In Dr. House's case, he saves lives! Jack Bristow? He saves lives, too -- while, um, sometimes taking them in grisly ways -- and, we hope, is working for the safety of the free world. Veronica Mars? A truth-seeker who's trying to solve the murder of her best friend.

But George Costanza? Hard for me to think of any consistent heroic traits he displays (or extraordinary heroic acts he performs). Gabrielle or Bree on Desperate Housewives? Hmmm. Bree, maybe, because she's genuinely tried to take care of her husband and son, despite their nearly unforgiveable mistakes. But Gabi? Come on. And Marshall? He's more of a comedic supporting hero, isn't he? (Have we ever seen him do anything remotely bad/evil?)

Ah, forgive the rant, but I like this thread a lot and just wanted to add my clarifying two cents. Plus, I'm an English teacher, so I kind of live for this stuff.

What? We're three pages into this and no one has mentioned Vic Mackey from The Shield? He killed a fellow officer in the pilot, in S1 and S2 ran the drug trade in Farmington, and robbed the Armenian money train at the end of S2 setting up a shitstorm in S3. With the exception of his killing a cop, I'm okay with the guy: Who gives a rat's ass if he's stealing from people less scrupulous than he is? This is an oversimplification but I think y'all get the picture. Great show.

I do believe that some of the choices here are less anti-hero and more villians we love to hate, or simply love.

Most notably, George Costanza. An anti-hero should be someone who ultimately does the right thing, and Costanza doesn't fit this bill at all. He is totally selfish and without any redeeming characteristics. But he is fun to watch.

The classic anti-hero is Humphrey Bogart as Rick in Casablanca. Here is a guy who is out for number one. He is a smooth, lone-wolf operator who is only cares about himself and does what he does to benefit himself. He was a true believer who was disillusioned and now is cynical and wary of everyone. But ultimately there is still good left in him and it will prevail.

Another, less nuanced but still great, version of this character is Han Solo, who is my favorite anti-hero.

Those two are movie characters, so who fits the bill on TV?

Currently the best anti-hero on tv is Sawyer on Lost.

Historically? I would say Hawkeye and Trapper John in the early years of MASH. These two were portrayed as seemingly juvenile, indulgent hedonists who flaunted the rules of the military and took a very serious situation, the Korean War, in a less than serious manner. However, they were talented surgeons dedicated to saving lives and did challenge authority when they thought it was being abused. Admittedly in a comedic way, but they still took on authority.

I would also cast a vote for James Garner, in Maverick and the Rockford Files.

Grumpy curmudgeon anti-hero?

Fred Sandford.

I mean how could you EVER count Fred as a villain? He's not only the protagonist, but he's also got good reasons for being so grumpy--he's surrounded by idiots.

Basil Fawlty too.

Does an anti-hero really have to do the right thing? The problem is that "right things" are very subjective. The real question is whether or not a hero has to be selfless. I mean, big bad Jack Bristow is ultimately pretty selfless, even if that is wrapped up in lots of pretty bad behavior. Why is he scheming with Sloane? You just KNOW there's ultimately a good reason for it. But swing over to George Costanza. As has been pointed out, he doesn't really care, on any level, what's good for anyone other than himself. He's probably the most selfish person ever on T.V. What makes us identify enough with him then, that by and large we don't want someone to mow him down with a machine gun?

I think it's the fact that the way he's "drawn" we identify with him. That's a key component I think in that line between this kind of character and others. Superman is a lousy hero, by and large, because he's damn inaccessible to just about everyone. Why do a lot of people like Batman better? Because we can identify with his moods--they represent us better.

So anti-hero might be a bad word for the George Costanzas of the TV world, not that there are many who fall into George's special category. As for the Fred Sandfords? In Fred's case, I think we genuinely want him to be happy. If he's not actively being heroic, at least the WAY we identify with him ensures that we want him to win. He's not as extreme as George, where part of the fun might be watching him lose.

I think Archie Bunker might qualify for this group.

Benito, I think "flawed hero" might be a better term than "anti-hero" for many of the characters discussed in this thread. Calling someone "anti-hero" comes too close for my comfort to meaning that the character being referred to really deserves life imprisonment without hope of parole. And thus is really applicable to the first the categories you list above, and possibly not even them.

On the other hand I can see how "flawed hero" might be too nearly synonymous with "believable" or "realistic" hero, which would be a very broad category indeed. So perhaps it should be reserved for characters who are mostly good but could go *really* bad if they're not careful. Such as Veronica Mars, who is very admirable in many ways, but whose tendency to (without necessarily realizing she's doing so) assume that the end justifies the means is worrisome.

It is, of course, also possible that I'm simply getting too bent out of shape over semantics here. I have been known to do that in the past.
:-)

There's also General Hospital's Sonny and Carly Corinthos. And for that matter, Ric Lansing of the same show. Hell, half the characters on that show.

Bill McNeil on Newsradio, self-centered, snobbish, sexualy harases coworkers and has no journalistic ethics, but Phil Hartman played him so well.

Garcia on Reno 911! worst of a bad lot. In addition to being dangerously incompetant, he's and angry racist.

Charles Barkley, yeah I know he's real. He's a boar, prone to violence, egotisitical but I want to have a few beers with him.

Matt (I can't remember his Japanese name) from Digimon. His crest was friendship but he always seemed like a real loner. In later part of the first season he kept challenging the leader (Tai) and pushing everyone away. He kicked so much ass then.

It occured to me today as I was watching one of the movies on TV, but the Addams have got to be the quintessential anti-heroes. They were morbid, disturbing, and the biggest freaks ever to grace a television set, yet they were all likable and in their own twisted way, completely functional and happy. The way they took the traditional white bread American family and turned it on its head was really something else.

I dunno. I actually don't think there was much "anti" about the Addams. Is being weird enough? They were clearly good people, just weird.

Bill McNeil on the other hand...

The introduction of anime reminds me of Dragon Ball Z's Vegeta. He started out as a pure villain, then got drawn into an uneasy alliance with the heroes against an even more dangerous force. Even while he assisted them, the show never let us forgot that in the end he really only cared about them to the point where they could help him out, which added an extra dimension to that storyline's battles that was much appreciated.

How about Wesley on Angel? He was on the side of good, but he did some really questionable things...kidnapping Connor, keeping Justine tied up in a closet, having a relationship with Lilah when they both knew he was really in love with Fred, killing what he thought was his father...this list goes on.

Bender on Futurama. Ammoral, criminal, foul mouthed and damn do I love him!

I'd have to go with Brian Kinney from Queer as Folk as being my favorite antihero. Vain, arrogant, cynical, capable of being a complete asshole to anyone and everyone he meets, and has little to no interest in anything other than getting his dick sucked. Yet Brian is protective of his friends and watches out for them, even though he would never admit to caring about any of them.

E.R.'s "Rocket" Romano. Manipulative, (kind-of) sexist, insensitive, sarcastic, bullying, tyrannical, inappropriate, grudge-holding and ego-centric. Yet, at heart; honest,warm - and the only thing worth tuning in for on the show

I'll second this since he lives by a code of personal ethics despite his flaws. An example was when he almost "pimped himself out" to that older married advertising client, but refused when he saw that the guy was going to delay seeing his injured daughter in the hospital in order to tryst with Brian. He also tries to do what's best for his son.
I've only seen most of the first three seasons, and he seems to have a "gay nationalism/ separatist" attitude that's good when it comes to things like fighting that homophobic mayoral candidate (who was infringing on Brian's right to have his dick sucked- hee!) but can also be really divisive and isolating.

An awesome litany of adjectives, though I disagree that Romano was the only character worth watching on E.R. But he's an anti-hero, to be sure -- right down to his tragic, ridiculous death, which has permanently soured me on the show.

For all of Romano's cranky qualities, I remember his sweet, vulnerable scenes the most: his interactions with Lucy and Lizzie (especially in "All in the Family"), and that great episode where he operated on his dog!