I'll open this a little before 11. Talk about previews for next week's episode in the speculation topic. Thanks!

ETA: Make that a little before 11:30. Since the show starts at 10:30. They're trying to confuse me.

Lee shoots He scores!! Was that not a twisty fun ride through the tunnels!

Love how they totally had everyone going (including me!) and then pulled it out and brought it. Starbuck is da bomb!!

The Trench Run! Always a winner.

Was that the UK version of the theme this week?

That well and truly rocked overall.

Thoughts on the President's vision of snakes as a fulfillment of prophecy: twelve snakes = twelve models of Cylon? A snake in the grass is a hidden enemy. Also the prophecy seems to indicate success for the mission. If she believes it, that's her own death but an important role as leader. Does this mean we can be confident that the humans will succeed eventually?

Ooh, is CapriBoomer pregnant? I have no real reason to think that. But she just barfed and that's sometimes code for pregnancy on TV shows.

I really liked the scene where Starbuck was lifting weights and EJO showed her in no uncertain terms that her knee didn't have the strength enough to fly. Also EJO moving her up into leadership position because of her injury. If she could fight, she'd be fighting, but they're finding a new use for her and it requires much more from her. Nice.

The battle plan sounded like it was actually an ideal Cylon plan (leaving Galactica totally vulnerable)... except for the secret vipers. I'm writing this live and it's making me very tense. Apollo is acting very very calm. Chuckles is gone and so is panicky girl. Ack! I am stressing, completely stressing. Is Lee on a suicide mission?

And there we go. Boom.

Wow, that was really awesome. It seems to me that the Cylons knew the plan except for the "need to know" section, meaning that their spy (spies) weren't in that inner circle. Nice bit with the return of the lighter. And the religious conversion of Baltar seems complete...although I still think the 12 snakes are the Cylons and not the vipers. There will be no living with Baltar now.

The premise and the delivery made for one of my favorite episodes so far this season, but there are several nitpicks to get out of the way.

"I routinely restrict tactical details to those who need to know." Translation? "Well, Madam President, it's much more suspenseful this way, since the viewers didn't know about our secret plan." Keeping the real plan of attack a secret was farfetched, but it wouldn't have been so bad if there hadn't been so many deliberate attempts to mislead us. If we'd never seen Starbuck explaining her plan and had to figure it out as it went along, they still would have had the suspense factor without having to throw us so many red herrings. Starbuck's frustration when the first batch of Cylons makes a move for Galactica makes no sense since that's exactly what she wanted to happen, but her barely noticeable smug reaction when the entire force abandons the "decoy" was. Too much deliberately misleading information that didn't make a lick of sense. I've come to expect better of BSG in the logic department. They could have misled us by witholding information, rather than by decieving us outright.

What was the President doing on Galactica during the battle? Besides giving the writers an excuse to keep up the charade of what the plan of attack actually was, of course.

Why weren't the pilots of Strike Force One ready to go in their fighters? They knew they were going to be launched, yet there seemed to be quite a scramble when Adama gave the order to launch Strike Force One. (The "one" there was a nice subtle touch that I wish the rest of the plan had done justice to.)

Why weren't they in CIC during the battle? Isn't the whole point of having a Combat Information Center so you can get information? Like, about ongoing combat?

That being said, there were more than enough great character moments to make up for the flaws. The Adama/Starbuck scene in the weight room. The confrontation between Starbuck and Apollo. The lighter scene with Adama and Apollo. "You better, or I'll kick your ass. It's a good lighter." Starbuck's frustration at being stuck away from the action, and Adama's pointed comment about her attitude towards Apollo and his abilities. Baltar's panic when the Cylons were incoming to Galactica and his "Oh, shit" expression when he had his back to Tigh and Starbuck. Starbuck's reaction when her students were getting blown out of the sky, powerless to help them. Baltar asking if Apollo's "gone raving mad" (takes one to know one). Apollo's awesome flight through the refinery (the Force is strong with this one...). Starbuck spontaneously groping the Prez. The tie-in between the 12 snakes and the 12 Vipers. Baltar's self-congratulatory rationalization at the end.

I always get a kick out of the vipers' manueverability. Overall a great episode IMO.


I was thinking the same thing, Chicharraj.

AKA "How Gaeta Got His Groove Back". Didja see him go for it?

10:48 p.m., my place: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Don't tell Baltar! Frak.

Thank you, BSG, for having Starbuck's knee give out at 4 instead of 2.

Thank you, Helo, for kissing Boomer on the forehead instead of the mouth. You know what I mean.

No, I won't give in to the bagpipe music and get teary-eyed. OK, I will. Dammit.

Don't worry, Lee, I believe in you.

Thank you, BSG, for making Starbuck not-so-perfect at something. Oh, nevermind.

"Until then..." Please. Don't. Say. It. "...we wait." Frak.

Thank you, Commander Adama, for Starbuck's attitude adjustment.

Farewell, Chuckles, we hardly knew ye.

Is a conveyor tunnel like a waste chute? Haven't I seen this movie before?

Can Adama & Adama just go to family counseling and be done with it?

Oh, Baltar, I knew that messianic epiphany was coming.

I LOVE this episode. Love love love love love. I can put up with a "Tigh Me Up" anytime, if I know the payoff is going to be this good.

I love Apollo's viper bunny-hopping around the tylium mine. I love the vipers being upside down and the camera spinning around b/c there IS NO UPSIDE DOWN IN SPACE. The spaceships just ROCK in this eppy.

I love Starbuck moving up into command. I love Adama piling on the weights and crushing her leg--even though I thought that vipers should be a little more high tech than that. Heck, even my first car had power steering. I can fanwank it with the need to be low tech to avoid Cylon viruses.

I love Starbuck hugging the Prez. I love the Prez hugging Starbuck back even more.

I love Adama getting weepy eyed b/c his boy is okay, and then hiding it b/c he's the boss.

I love Baltar once again wondering if everyone else--and Apollo especially--is crazy. It's so much fun to see him being the voice of reason.

I love the Priest claiming the 12 snakes the Prez sees are the fulfillment of prophesy and how Six claims it's the Vipers Mark II and Mark 10. Because prophesies are tricky things, even if you believe them, and Roslyn really shouldn't just rely on them to lead the last of humanity.

Most of all, I love that whether Six is a chip in Baltar's head or just his guilty subconscious mind is now moot, because Baltar is now certifiably batsh!t crazy ! James Callis just has the most amazing expressions in his eyes.

(Speaking of eyes, is EJO wearing blue contacts? Or is he getting cataracts?)

scotti wondered:



No, it was new stuff. The UK theme is a bit like the US theme but more vocal-oriented -- if you look up the BSG soundtrack on any site that has a "listen-before-you-buy" option, it's Track 1. This week's theme is something else. I wonder if it's a permanent change or if they'll be switching themes every few weeks or so? Personally, I preferred the old theme -- but I did love that they were rocking the bagpipes this week!

ETA: Upon second viewing I think the music is from uilleann pipes (Irish bagpipes).

I was thinking pregnant also.

Wheeee! What a rush! Apollo's zippy flight moves were awesome. Glad he finally got a chance to show off his chops. And it's a small thing, but I loved that Cally hugged him when he got out of his viper. Aww. Also loved that Adama called Starbuck on questioning Lee. He seems to know her quite well.

I really liked that we weren't let in on the entire battle plan to start, because it had me wondering "where's Apollo? why don't I hear his voice? WTF is going on!?" during that first strike. Overall I loved it, and the special effects were rad.

I wonder why they changed it? I absolutely love the US version.

I thought he wore blue-colored contacts.

Diddo on the preggers speculation thing. I sure hope not.

I thought most of the episode was pretty bad, espiecally that cheesy, cliched scene with Alda and son and the lighter. It seemed like a scene from a bad war movie...or a bad war television show. I also didn't dig all the celebration, it seemed a little exssesive with all the bad irish music and beer bottles et al.

Baltar is becoming more and more bat shit. I hope he becomes the villain of the series or something, next to the cylons that is.

ETA: Am I the only one laughing really hard at the girl screaming "Chuckles! They got Chuckles!"?

Does anyone know how much weight was on Starbuck's knee? I was sad when Chuckles bought it. He reaches for his chest sees the blood and that's it. I so didn't see the connection with the 12 Vipers and the 12 snakes. I loved Tigh's comment about Starbucks War College experience. I can't get enough of their relationship. Character wise I loved the ep. Baltar is just insane. I love him but he's nuts.

ETA: Because it was Chuckles not Hotdog.

Don't forget, for those of you who tivo the episode to rewatch the episode with podcast.

I thought Hotdog was fine - that it was "Chuckles" who bought it. Hotdog wasn't flying with Apollo, he was in the Strike One formation. But it was sad to see anyone bite it, just because you know they don't have many left.

I edited my post. I got the callsigns mixed up. I hope they address their ever increasing number of down fightters. They need to start building more.

I watched it with the podcast tonight, and I have to say... eh. It was entertaining, but Moore droned on and on for minutes about the models on the Big Board and how they were originally going to be geometric shapes.

She answered something that I missed and winked at him. What did she say exactly?

It was even more painful to see pilots get blown because they were Starbuck's nuggets. A few hours before Adama had asked how they were doing and she seemed quite proud of them.

Am I the only one under the impression that Adama was teaching the Prez a lesson for spying on him and going behind his back a few days before? Something like: "You want to play the "I don't trust you" game? Okay". He wouldn't be above it.

Well, they didn't all bought the farm. Hotdog, probably the best of the nugget is still around, and he got at least 1 raider to up his kill total to 2 or 3.

I think it was the Mark II viper and the number (10?) that attacked the base which Baltar thinks is the connection.

Oh, what a great episode. It really laid out the possible trajectories of the major characters - Starbuck being groomed to be the "Old Man", Lee proving himself and finding his "place" amongst the pilots, and Baltar being converted to Cylonism.

I agree with some of the comments upstairs, though, you have to bench press that much weight everytime you fly a Viper in combat? How on earth did they pull those 300 hour shifts in the first episode?

I can't believe Chuckles and that poor girl died... exactly how many pilots do they have left??

I liked that moment when they're all trying to figure out a plan and Starbuck shoots it down. Lee stiffens a little, but doesn't act like an ass, he just asks what she would do differently. Love those little moments of professional jealousy between them, it makes their relationship that much more interesting.

I guess not that many people on board know that it was actually Apollo who saved humanity's ass in the first place, in the miniseries. And he did it first with an unconventional idea, and then with common sense. It's nice to see him get some validation from his peers.

The Roslin-Kara hug was sweet. And I'm really fascinated by the whole mythology surrounding the colonies and these scrolls and stuff. Usually I think it's boring crap, but damn, they have me hooked. But good lord, if Baltar is an instrument of God, they'd better start praying. Highly enjoyed his panic.

Well, I don't think they have to bench press that much weight all the time, just for certain combat maneuvers at certains speeds. I believe Adama was demonstrating the amount of strength she'd need for one move in particular. I love how she stubbornly tried to hold out for as long as she could, too.

I loved this episode, nitpicks be darned. The knee scene made me turn away, due to the number of times I've banged up my knees. All I could think of was, "Torn tendon, torn tendon, Starbuck'll never get better that way, Adama, you sadistic bastard!"

Liked the Shuffleboard of Military Strategy. Cylons: "You sunk my battleship!"

Oh, and about that 'Kamala'? Might it have any other names by chance, like, you know, LSD?

With every episode, I'm becoming more convinced the Cylons are playing the humans. The question is, what for? How could Baltar randomly pick the right location for the vipers to strike? I think whatever spot he picked, the vipers would MAKE into the right location.

I so didn't think of that but brilliant! That makes sense.

That's what Baltar thinks, but for me the number twelve immediately made me think of the rumor that there were twelve models of Cylon. Does anyone have the quote from the minister/priestess/religious leader about the prophecy? My impression was that the snakes were negative, but maybe I didn't hear it right....

"What's the matter, Colonel, married life not all that you expected?"

As for the nuggets, I presume Cat is still around as well -- we didn't see her get hit on the base attack.

I love this episode. Yeah, as Moore says in the podcast, it's like fast food, but it's really good fast food. I love the tricksy plan. I love the Star Wars homage, which is there but not too direct, at least for me. I love seeing the nuggets, and even love that they were willing to kill off Chuckles. I love that Roslin is beginning to get a bit weirded out by the religious significance of her hallucinations. I love the touching yet awkward scene between Adama and Apollo. I love the scene in the gym between her and Adama, and the fact that Starbuck doesn't get to go, and that the hotshot flight through the tunnel wasn't her. God help me, I even love the cheesy final shot of Baltar with his arms spread out Christ-like.

I love this episode.

I think the line was that the 12 gods of kobol would send the prophet/leader a sign of 12 snakes to alert them to the fact that they were the chosen one, which, I think would make it a positive.

Best episode for me. Beats out "33."

I loved Starbucks wink at Tigh after they did their verbal sparing. She's so good.

Great battle. I got chills when the female pilot bought it and screamed like she was on fire.

It's also awesome that if Baltar weren't insane enough, we now have to throw "Instrument of God" onto the list.

Me too! I think the two of them should hook up. So cute.

I am so tired of the Super!Starbuck crap. I wouldn't have minded one bit if she had been part of the team from the beginning and was throwing out her "out of the box" ideas and they ended up adopting them. That would have highlighted her skills without denigrating Lee and Tigh. But having her come in after they've come up with a plan and pass judgement on it with her snotty "textbook strategy that the Cylons will see right through" comments builds up her character by tearing down the others. Why is that necessary?

I also was put off by the "You'll do fine." "How do you know?" "Because you're my son." exchange. Huh. So, the only thing Lee has going for him is his bloodline? Couldn't Adama have said something like, "Because you're a damn good pilot and have excellent instincts". Jeez, no wonder the boy has self-confidence issues.

On the other hand, I loved the lighter. Was the grandfather's name Joseph Adama? I wonder if grandma was named Mary. Hee.

As if Baltar's ego wasn't big enough, now he's an instrument of God? His head isn't going to fit through doors pretty soon.

Poor Helo. Is he ever going to get a clue? Since throwing up is TV speak for a pregnancy, it looks like the Cylon's little Caprica experiment is a success.

Feel the Force, Luke.

Twice during this ep, Mr. Minette did that annoying thing where he calls out the big revelation a split second before I would have gotten it myself:
1 – CapBoomer looks sort of ill: “Preggers!”
2 – Baltar takes up pose along the railing in his dreamworld: “Christ figure!”
Grrrr. I think he’s right on both counts, though.

Misskiwi:

I was disappointed by this too. (Mr. Minette called this one too, of course: “There’s another strike force they’re not telling us about.”)


Yes, this bugged me too.

But nitpicks aside, I liked it a lot. I’m also hugely gratified that we finally have a more big-picture hint of what the Cylons are up to. There’s a prophecy (about the snakes, the dying leader, etc.). They believe in God (whatever God that would be), and believe that God wants them to fulfill the prophecy. So they are doing whatever they have to do to the humans to make that prophecy come true.

That’s my current interpretation, anyway.

Also, this is the first time I’ve thought Baltar was hot. May have something to do with the fact that his craziness was more subtle in this ep – also the fact that he looks awesome in that T-shirt (although he also looked awesome without it, when Six was giving him that massage).

Starbuck is looking fine, too. I think she’s better groomed these days than she was in the beginning.

I was wondering what people think of Gen Adama's choice of grooming Starbuck as his possible successor, instead of Lee. I don't think he brought her in just for her "out of the box" ideas, and to give her a sense of purpose while being decomissioned. I think he's seizing the opportunity to mentor her as well... no one knows when they will find earth, and Tigh certainly won't be the next general of the fleets.

I think it's great, of course, but I also think Lee has some qualities as well that would make him a great leader of the Galactica. Or maybe this means he has a different purpose?

"Use the FORCE, Apollo!" Wow, I was shouting at my TV.

Anyone else, when they started reciting the Pythian Prophecy, think "Oooh! So that's where the Cylons got their mysterious Plan!"

Because my immediate thought was to wonder if they calculated how many Presidential successors they'd have to kill before they got to the one who wouldn't live long enough to find Earth.

I don't think it's instead of Lee. I think he's grooming them both, which makes sense. Lee is already being groomed every day, he's the CAG, he's the presidential advisor. But there are so few of them and they risk their lives every day, so it's prudent to train several officers to higher functions. The Commander and the XO are not young, and the highest-ranking officers after that are Apollo and Starbuck. (Okay, she's not the only Lieutenant, but she's the most prominent one). What's more, they all have to fulfil several functions (see Starbuck as an interrogation officer) so they might as well be used to working at several levels.

Finally, it's Starbuck. We already know that Adama loves her, and seeing her injured probably reminded him that even if she lives, she won't always be able to be a pilot. He talked about his own experience when he had to stop flying and I think he was preparing her for that day. She needs to be really good at something else. Lee is already much more than a pilot, so I don't see him becoming half-crazy if he couldn't fly a Viper anymore. Starbuck? If it lasts much longer, she's going to beat everyone with her cane.

Yes, Adama is grooming for his own replacement, as he was once a viper pilot as well. More importantly, Apollo already had his command, and had appropriate course under his belt. Starbuck is up to this point, strictly a flight jockey. That's why Adama is slowing breaking her into the command position.

Sometimes it must really suck to be Apollo. Especially if your own father is trying to convince himself into believing in you. Being underestimated is seriously irritating.

I'm still blown away by how cool those combat scenes were. I was just filled with geeky joy watching it. And it sounds cold, but I love when people die - it just heightens the seriousness of the situation for me.

That's a good point, Rafaella, and I can totally see Starbuck going around hitting everyone with her cane, ha ha:)

But I also think by favoring Starbuck, Gen Adama is giving Apollo a "way out". So it's not just that he "likes" Starbuck that he's grooming her. I think it's strategic on many levels. Zak's death may have affected Gen Adama on a deeper level than he's showing, and it's wise to realize that there is a lot more to the context than becoming General. This really provides a sense of freedom to Lee, and is a really smart way of helping his son.

I thought they had to wait to launch until they were sure that the Cylons had taken the bait. So they didn't know how long it would be until the Raptors reported that the Cylons were off, and that there were enough Cylons flying to make the plan work.


See, that I interpreted as "Of course I know you'll do fine - you're my son and I know what you're capable of." Back to the idea that Adama understands his son, but Apollo doesn't understand his dad too well in return.

Also, I loved that their fuel is Tyllium. Another nod to old skool BSG.

They did have to wait, but the pilots could have waited seated in their ships, and maybe already in their tubes, instead of waiting somewhere else. I choose to think this is just a specific shot to show the crews running around all busy that I personally would have dropped for some other shot, but that worked out in this case.

I disagree. Adama has shown numerous times he doesn't really understand Apollo any more than vice versa, he just thinks he does. The problem with what he did here is that Apollo is caught between two things, he WANTS his father's approval and love, so Adama says that and Lee feels he's gotten it in some way BUT it doesn't say anything about his actual abilities. HIS abilities. Not to bring up dearly departed Zac, but he was Adama's son as well and we know he wasn't really all that capable but Adama was going to believe he was because he was his son, he just needed time for that inborn inherited talent to kick in, is all. So being told he believes in his because he's his son is a double edged sword.

Saying "I know you can do it because you're my son" is actually pretty self-centered. I wouldn't want one of my parents to say to me "I know you can do it because you're my daughter"--because that means the measure of my worth is through them, NOT in my own right. It's biased at the very least and thus not exactly believable.

To my mind this is another example of them being at cross purposes, when Lee needs a father, dad goes into professional mode, when he needs a commander, dad goes into dad mode. Now he's going to accept the "dad mode" because he wants that and so obviously anytime he gets it, it's going to mean something BUT he could have used a commander more in this case I think. Someone who said to him "I know you can do it because I know what YOU are capable of in your job" not because he's his son.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it wasn't a genuine bonding moment but in terms of Lee's "problem", it didn't really help with that.

When did they have time to make those miniature Cylon raiders? They didnt know what the new ones looked like before the war.

Did you see Cally hugging Apollo when he came back? I think she wants him.

What's with the rejigged theme song in this episode?

Shit, man, the opening montage and the theme song were the things that my husband and I rewound at least three times before we actually watched the episode and then at least one more time after we watched it and before we deleted it from TiVo!

Yes, we're geeks. Shut up.

I hate it when they play around with good music and I'm really bummed by the change -- it's so much less powerful than the one they had been using for the nine previous episodes. It's all watered down now.

That's pretty much the reason that I don't think that Adama meant it that way nor did Apollo take it that way -- Apollo was troubled, Adama told him he knew that Apollo could do what needed to be done, and Apollo reacted as though he were comforted by that thought.

Had Adama meant it to be all about himself, I don't think that hypersensitive Apollo would have let it go and kept quiet. I don't think their one moment of father-son bonding ("We'd never have left") has repaired their relationship to that extent.

But it's nice to have a show where we have to guess at what people are thinking -- just like in real life -- rather than have the characters endlessly repeat their inner dialogue to us, over and over again.

Who doesn't? Ha. I think she'll have to fight Ellen Tigh for that priviledge, and I would pay to see that. But she probably has a bit of hero-worship for Apollo anyway, since he saved her on the prison ship.

Yeah, I don't get it. The original version was badass, I loved it so much I downloaded it and appended it to all my playlists. Very exciting and psyched me up to see the episode. What are they doing to it? Argh.

A-fucking-men to that. Plus I love that while what Adama said to Lee may not have the greatest thing to say, it was certainly in character for him to say it. Nobody's perfect on this ship.

I'm not sure that sure Adama was blind to Zac's abilities in the end. Lee's anger seemed more due to his father's definition of the ideal for them to live up to rather than any mistaken faith that Zac was some great pilot. Adama's said that Zac was qualified, not anything more.

The line tonight was great because of it's ambiguity. I believe Adama meant it in the sense that "I know (you well enough to know that) you'll do fine... (other's on the ship don't know that yet)." But it could certainly be taken by Lee as "I know you'll be fine (you can't fail) because you're my son (and you can't let me and my genes down)"

Watching it again - I love the moment when Adama busts out with the whole "we take the tylium from the cylons" plan, and the camera pans to Lee, whose expression clearly says "well, I'm fucked." Hee! I also love the little silence in the room after the President asks how many expected casualties - it's the elephant in the room, that Lee might not make it back. Excellent.

Plus, Roslin's hair looks fabulous. Glad she found a great stylist aboard. ;)

Yes, I loved this episode too. Loved the special effects in the attack on the Death Star, oops, I mean Cylon base. Loved Apollo's arms when he's leaning on the table in the battle-planning scene (what? I'm shallow). Loved the competing religious visions. Really loved the hugging and re-hugging between the Prez and Starbuck. And, yeah, loved the plot twist and the upside down space ships. I didn't mind the necessity for suspension of disbelief. The fun of the reveal of the Secret!Plan was totally worth it to me.

It looks like whoever said Chamalla is spice was right. So I guess we're in for three good seasons of Battlestar Galactica followed by a somewhat tiresome God-Emperor of Galactica.

That was a freaking great episode. Some minor problems people have already noted, the excessive celebration (particularly when they lost more than a few pilots) and the obvious "backup plan".

But the execution of this episode is just so far above what you normally see in scifi these days. And that badass trench run with Lee was just the shit.

I was disconcerted by the change to the music but its really not all that different, it feels more raw and primal. They should have just left it alone though.

When the prophecy stuff came up I immediately said to myself "Poor Strega, she just can't get away from those prophecies."

As with 33 this episode shows how well this show builds and holds tension, another rarity in TV. And this show gets really dark sometimes too, at times it reminds me of another great but short lived scifi show "Space: Above and Beyond".