It may be a combination of his "earthsight" and his airbender sensitivity to air currents. Put those two together, and you would get someone very difficult to sneak up on. Plus, Combustion Man isn't exactly the stealthiest guy around, what with him being six foot plus with a metal arm and leg.

Oddly the thing that stood out the most to me was that Katara was going to be feeding Appa for the next five days if she intended to bend his entire meal into his mouth.


I thought the show was going to go there, actually. I've read so many short stories where the rock-hard-natured earth elemental discovers their softer/nurturing/feminine and beautiful or whatever side that I was actually thrown when they didn't go there.

I found myself asking, "Why was Toph able to sense where the green stone was while it was in mid-air?" I have a sneaking suspicion that this is actually an idiotic question to which the answer is "It's a stone!!!"


I was okay with this. They can reach truce and even friendship, but their basic personalities aren't going to change. You have the same fights over and over with family members, spouses, etc... I'd expect more clashes in the future even, though they probably won't devote any more entire episodes to them.

I loved that they brought back Toph's special stone tent for the occasion.


All animals in the Avatar world seem to be sentient. I wondered about this myself until Sokka's hawk actually shook its head "no" at one point.

This is brilliant. Vicious, but brilliant. :-) But would it hurt a firebender? Could they, like, push the flames away from their skin? If a waterbender can technically separate the water out of a living body...

I loved how, rough as it was, it totally looked like her when Sokka lowered it. Same pose, expression... I had just been thinking "See, if that's the quality of Fire Nation art, no wonder Zuko can go incognito..."

Actually I found the whole episode ridiculously touching. I am getting way oversentimental here. Drat you, Avatar.

Zuko is living proof that Firebenders are not immune to being burned. Also, I think the suddenness of an explosion of that magnitude would probably catch all those Firebenders off-guard so that they couldn't concentrate enough to Firebend; Zuko has also shown that a lack of focus while Firebending makes things blow up in your face real good.

There's also probably a difference between trying to bend a preexisting flame that's in midair or away from you and a flame that's, like, consuming you. Between Azula, Avatar Roku, and Sozin, we've seen two Firebending techniques designed to defend against opposing Firebending - using hand and arm motions to conduct incoming fire away from you, and intercepting the flames with an equal or superior blast of fire. Neither technique is really applicable to the napalm/oil bath scenario, as far as I can see. You might be able to extinguish yourself if on fire by displacing the heat, a la Sozin and the volcano, but that seemed like another intense concentration moment, for which "AAAAAAH I'M BURNING" would probably be too much of a distraction.

Another Elfquest fan?! My regard for you has increased tenfold.

Ty Lee’s difficulties seem ridiculously mild when compared to what Zuko has been through, but I do think that small issues can become very serious over time. If Ty Lee didn’t have a way of talking about her issues with her family, I can see how it might build up inside.

I doubt Yu and Xin Fu could be involved in this: even if they somehow knew that Toph had gone into the Fire Nation, I doubt they'd be willing or able to follow her there for any amount of money. It's not like they can just stroll into the enemy homeland, especially with hundreds of miles of enemy-occupied Earth Kingdom in the way, much less arrange with local law enforcement to but a bounty on somebody. The Fire Nation imprisons Earthbenders in concentration camps on sight, after all. (Also, those two wouldn't need to think up a new pseudonym for Toph. They already know her real name and her existing nickname. And it was the police who were offering the reward... getting Toph arrested wouldn't help Yu and Xin Fu out any.)

More likely, in my opinion, is that the locals got wise to Toph's scams and put the word out that an unidentified blind girl of such and such description (codenamed "The Runaway" because they didn't know her actual name) was defrauding their populace. Combustion Man then showed up and warned the locals of Toph's capabilities (so they'd put her in a wooden cell instead of a metal one) and probably inflated the bounty... although whether that was because he thought it would actually result in someone capturing Toph (unlikely, as he has to know that no amateur bounty hunter is likely to be able to capture a member of the Avatar's team), or done to draw attention to them so he can track them through tipsters after the reward, or because he anticipated that it would tempt them to try and pull a bait-and-switch on the clearly overmatched locals, who can say?




The writers on this show are very good, but they're no strangers to coincidence. (Although "fate" is probably the word they'd use.) What were the odds that Katara's angry hand motions would split open the iceburg that just happened to contain a frozen Avatar? Or that Zuko would be nearby when it happened? Or that one of the childhood friends Azula was gathering would be in Omashu at the same time that the Gaang was there? Or that everybody would wind up at Ba Sing Se at the same time?

But in this case, I think there might be something else going on. How did Combustion Man know before The Beach to look for Aang in the Fire Nation, rather than the Earth Kingdom? How did he know to have his bird intercept the one messager hawk carrying news of the Avatar's survival? He must have at least been in the general area at the time. I still think that there's some significance to his tattoo being over the chakra of insight. I think he may have a way of knowing things.




Actually, Toph was the first to sense his approach the previous time. She woke everyone else up, and then they all saw CM at about the same time (after the moonlight reflecting off his metal arm shined in Aang's eyes). Aang was the first to react to block the first shot, though, possibly because he's a speed specialist with the crazy reflexes of both the young and the tiny (shorter limbs means shorter distances for nerve impulses to travel, although at 120 m/s that's a pretty hairline distinction).


Regarding Combustion Man, am I right in the impression I've been getting that his metal hand doesn't ever change position? So it's just a solid piece of metal, not articulated in any way? Interesting.




Thanks, I think. Everything I know about devious prior planning, I learned from tabletop role-playing games. :-)

I'd been trying to figure out under what conditions a prisoner exchange with the Fire Nation would be feasible, considering that Azula's default strategy for hostage negotiations is to sacrifice the hostage and attack the negotiator. Dousing the Fire Nation contingent in oil (which would double as a deadman switch for some hidden barrels of blasting jelly) was the only way I could see it working. Clearly, I have entirely too much free time to waste thinking about Avatar. :-P




That is an advantage to the "immolation" plan: it's hard for bad guys to kill you with their magical superpowers when they're distracted by being on fire. Wasn't on my mind this time, but it has been when I've used this strategy in RPGs.

I like the idea that the Combustion Man (or SSBM, 'cause that name is awesome) has a way of just knowing where his targets are - which is why he *is* so good at what he does.:) I don't want to have to get too in-depth on his character, since we're chock full o' characters on this show already, but I'd love to get to know more about exactly how his powers work, and how he wound up with that awesome metallic leg and (clawed!) arm.

TheNarrator - as for the Firelord timeline, even though Azula calls Sozin "ancient," there are actually two sources for an exact age at which he died - 102. Bryan Konietzko himself says this, and it's also on Nick.com. If Sozin died at 102, there's no way Azulon could have ruled only 23 years. This is just one of those cases where we're given conflicting evidence, and as far as I can tell we have to assume that the time of Azulon's rule in "Zuko Alone" is just plain wrong. Maybe the sages screwed up? I mean, Bryan says Azulon ruled 75 years, which is a heck of a lot longer than 23, maybe the sages had a bit too much fire water on the day of his funeral.;)

Dang double-post!;)

Hmm... I was not aware of that. I guess there is a discrepancy.

You guys are hard to keep up with. I just now had enough time to catch up after a week without access...
BTW is it cheating to watch the UK episodes if i'm in the US?
Okay someone mentioned votes for such and such catagories for episodes and here's my votes:
Favorite so far: Bitter Work actually, I really loved it.
Least Favorite: Ocuh hard to pick between The Great Divide, Imprisoned (may be wrong title), and the Painted Lady.
Best One Liner: Appa's in charge.
Worst One Liner: I really don't know, but most of the ones I can think of come in first season, before the story really got started.
Creepiest Moment: In 3-8 Watching Hamma's veins bulging as she talked about the ultimate technique. I'd been sure of what it was and that confirmed it for me before she said the words. That was just plain freaky.
Most Moving Scene: Watching the walls of Ba Sing Se be brought down.
Most Moving Episode: Crossroads of Destiny.
Best Training Scene: I love the dance in The Headband, that was the best job of training without letting it be obvious I've ever scene in any show. You can just see where the different movements would be directing their elements. Very good animation and creativity.
Least Favorite thing they've done: Had Katara impersonate Aang's mother and then turn around and have her show a hint of Love interest. <Twitches>
Best Villian Award: Azula, out of any animated show I've ever seen she takes the cake, she's just it.
Best Hero: Sokka, mostly refence this series but he's like 3rd on my all time list.
Funniest Scene: FufuCuddlyPoops and Sokka, all of the little mini scenes.
Okay I think that's my list for now.
On the topic of bending animals, didn't the serpent back on Kyoshi Island use a big jet of water, not quite bending but still.
I figure the dragons were probly raised by fire benders who found and/or took the eggs, it said on the Nick site that Roku hand raised Fang. It didn't say how Sozin got his, only that his was as wicked as he was.
As far as the time line discrepency goes has anyone considered that the firelord might have the option of something like retirement when he or rather his child/heir reaches a certian age? Maybe the ruling times are squed cause Sozin let his son take over early or something. Just and idea.
As far as Mai's age being off I'm really not sure how much it matters at this point, we know that she Ty lee, Azula and Zuko were all within 3 years of eachother and that the girls went to the same school where their individual skills and knowledges were expanded for their future roles in life. Lets not forget just cause we don't know her family's standing that Ty lee has to be from a nobel or at least rich family cause she went to the academy that the others did. That in itself says she's more then she seems. Maybe grooming their girls to be just as effective in combat as their boys is normal for the FN.
We see alot of homeland enforcers as women, perhaps the ladies in a family have to have a strong presence for when/if their husband is called to war.
I'm wondering how Hamma went several years without being found, I mean doing the things she did, and so opening teaching Katara. I was expecting a bit more stealth I guess...
You know as far as shipping goes, it's all a fan things, it doesn't have to make sense. I admit some ships are just a NO as far as I'm concerned, some I like to laugh at and others I can see. My favorite ship is no where near canon, but I think the two would be opposite and yet alike enough to pull it off. Also is it just me or is Ty lee showing interest in Zuko off handedly? I mean the way she said 'I know you' so defeatedly in beach is one thing but she just generally seems to be concerned. Maybe I'm seeing something that's not there, I wouldn't even consider it a ship, it's not the one I favor, but it does seem potential. Maybe I'm just tied of seeing Maiko, they are being hung by the red thread not strangled, broken. It's cute when you think back to the fountain thing and the comic was funny, but still they could only stand eachother so long I think.
I'm not terribly sure that the Gaang did all their scamming in the same place. After all they arrived at the rondevu 3 days early. So maybe the trap was being set up in a wider area then we think. Could be wrong.
One last thing on Kataang I don't like it but given I don't like any pairings that Katara has had that's not saying much. Zutara was fun at first, but they're just not like that. Someday they may back eachother up as allies but not as romantic interest. I think Zuko would have a better chance with Suki then Katara at this point and they've not even really meet.
It's good to be back.

D'OH!! *whacks self in own head mutliple times for the dumb*

Since I was wee. :-D

From way back: The wooden cell is such a terrible idea in a nation of firebenders that I can't believe it's coincidence.

Yeah, but remember she isn't as screwed up as Zuko or Azula. Being an attention seeker and not having any real connections to her family (running off to join the circus is a bit extreme in and of itself) is all she's been really shown, and it matches her story.

(Oh, and Nar? You don't happen to frequent the KP Slash Haven, do you?)



But it is cheaper than a metal one, especially in a country that probably rations metal for the war effort, and not everyone is a bender. They might not have had any clue she could bend earth, but had simply known she couldn't bend fire.

But couldn't firebenders melt some measly metal bars? (Whoo, lotsa alliteration there.) At least the hinge pins. They would be pretty hard to hold in any type of cell, actually. I would have guessed they would just stick with hand-cuffs and a guard...

I'm not saying that it doesn't match what we've seen of her. I'm just saying that it doesn't warrant a "Do you have any idea what my home life was like?", especially considering who she's talking to. That's a loaded phrase. It writes a check that Ty Lee's backstory can't cash. (And most especially it's not a phrase appropriate for speaking to someone with a more traumatic childhood than you. Does Zuko have any idea what it's like to not get enough parental attention? Yeah, he kind of does. He also knows what it's like to have his own father burn half his face off, and I sort of doubt Ty Lee could have forgotten that.)




Hadn't even heard of it. Slash really isn't my cup of tea. Why do you ask?




You'd need a pretty hot fire to melt steel (about 1370 degrees Celsius, depending on the particular alloy). The red and orange fires of most firebenders probably range from 525 to 1200 degrees Celsius. Normal firebenders, if they even could, would probably need a long time to burn through steel, and would get caught by the guards before they got very far. Azula's much hotter blue fire is close to the same color (and thus temperature) as a welding torch, so she could probably cut steel a lot faster. Powerful firebenders and ones with good control (who can concentrate the heat) can probably get the temperatures needed to cut steel, although it's still going to be hard to cut a hole big enough to escape through before a guard notices. A cutting torch takes time.



EDIT: For some reason, a few of the recent discussions are giving me the notion to write a "Things I'm No Longer Allowed To Do..." list for Avatar. Does anybody actually think that's a good idea? 'Cause it's cracking me up thinking about it.

I think it sounds like it would be very funny, so you should go for it!:)

Another dopey thing - when Katara and Toph are in the wooden cell, Katara first suggests that Toph bend her bracelet to make a saw to get them out of there, but of course, Toph left it back at camp. This leads to the awesome scene of Katara getting creative and bending her sweat.;) But what I'm thinking is - ok, so Toph didn't have her metal bracelet, but both she and Katara are wearing metal hairpieces, and Katara has two metal armbands, in addition to two metal cuffs she's wearing. Wouldn't that have been enough to do the trick?

Good point. The space metal seems to be very easy for Toph to bend; she seemed able to manipulate it as easy as a water bender bends water.

Maybe the metal they did have on them is just too 'strong' for Toph to bend/mix into a saw.

Or more likely in the stress of the moment, it just slipped their minds. They are still kids and even many adults wouldn't even think of what else they had on hand.

I think the concern, too, is that Toph does not have the same kind of fine-tuned control over metal that she does over earth. Thus far, what she's done to metal objects is mainly distort and crush them. The unworked meteor rock, while being a special type of rock for sure, seems more flexible and adaptible than your average piece of iron.

There was a metal cell in there too. When they were coming into the jail, they showed the metal one (to fake you out and think they might get away with the scam) and then they kept going and threw her in the wooden one. I agree with the other people that figure they'd probably keep the wooden one around in case any furriners showed up.
Although on a similar point, I'm still mildly amazed that there seem to be so many wooden structures in the Fire Nation in general just cause of the whole *fire hazard* thing, although I guess it was probably safer for them than stone ones when the Earth Kingdom was more of a concern.

Well the ep a couple of weeks ago surprised me with how GREEN the Fire Kingdom was before the war started. Now that they've been at war for a generation or so, the Fire Kingdom is showing signs of wear. Wooden structures are probably more common just because they are easier to put up and still look somewhat nice, especially if you have the Army breathing down your neck to meet your production quotas.

Plus not EVERYONE in the fire nation is a bender. For most people, I doubt the fire risk is any greater than it would be for anyone else in a similar era.

Building with would could even be encouraged, as a way to ensure obedience to the Palace. If you start revolting, you can watch everything you own go up in flame with a wave of a soldier's hand.

I do like that we're getting to see more female Fire Nation types this season. Seems like they're pretty much Homeland Security, huh?;) Say what you will about the Fire Nation, but it seems to have the biggest amount of gender equity. Well, at least they got one thing right.

Maybe the plain animals are smarter and more tame that the hybrid animals. Appa, Momo, Hawky and the Earth King’s bear have all turned out to be really good pets. The majority of animal in the Avatar world are the hybrids like the turtle-ducks or moose-lions which are never seen as pets.

Although aren't Appa and Momo basically hybrid animals, too?;)

They are both hybrids, yes. Appa is half-manatee, half-bison, and Momo is half-lemur, half-bat.

I'm pretty sure that the Fire Nation isn't clueless enough to keep Firebender prisoners in the wooden jail cell(s). As I posited before, the wooden cell is more than likely for Earthbender and Waterbender prisoners of the Earth Kingdom and Water Tribe. In theory, that might not be such a deterrent for a Plantbender from the Foggy Swamp Water Tribe, but they're such an obscure subgroup that the Fire Nation at large probably hasn't even heard of them, let alone designed prisons for them.

The Narrator


No, her back story doesn't meet expectations, but it does completely fit with the personality she's being presented with: dramatic and attention seeking. It pales to everyone else's story, but it exemplifies her. See your point, though.

And the KP Slash Haven thing, well, someone on their boards under the Avatar section said some things very similar to your post, and I know some of them are TWoPers and was wondering if I knew you from another site. As is, it looks like there's a thief. (Dun dun dun.)

Thanks for the info one the metal melting though. It was just random speculation on my part. But would heating it, even if not to the point of melting, weaken the metal at all? If you got a part that was small (like hinges, or even a few tumbler pins in the lock) could you heat them within the possible bending range and apply force to finish it? I'm starting to think I shouldn't have slept so much during chemistry...

Polter-Cow

Really? I knew the bison stuff, but I didn't suspect manatee. Is that canon?

I don't think it's ever been mentioned on the show, but I believe Mike and Bryan have said it.

Most of the Avatarverse animals are referred to as "Animal1"-"Animal2"; i.e. platypus-bear, ostrich-horse, etc. But Appa has always been called either "sky bison" or "flying bison" (which is ironic now that I think about it, as neither a bison nor a manatee can fly in real life), and never "manatee-bison". Ditto for Momo, who's always been a "flying lemur" and not a "bat-lemur".

Appa looks half-bison, half-pillbug to me.

Really cute pillbug, mind you.

Neither a badger nor a mole can earthbend, but badger-moles can. Flying bisons can fly because they airbend, and not because of anything about their physiology (unlike Momo, who actually has wings of a sort to glide with).

Appa is kind of manatee-like in terms of his overall body shape. It's got this curved shape like a manatee's. And of course, there's the tail. The six legs, on the other hand, I have no idea the origins of.




Most, but not all. The penguins are a sort of 4-flippered penguin/seal mix. The Komodo Rhino is a Komodo Dragon/Rhino/Triceratops. Whereas the elephant koi aren't elephant-like except in size.




Well, it gets malleable before it gets molten. Like how a blacksmith heats metal before pounding on it with a hammer. But heating the hinges or tumblers and then hitting them might just warp them so that they wouldn't be able to open at all. But it might be possible to weaken the metal with heat and then bust it. The question is, is it possible in the time the prisoner has before the guard comes back? You'd need skill, strength and either speed or subtlety to pull it off without getting caught.

So the metal cell would probably be able to hold most firebenders. Just not the badasses.



EDIT: Well, since somebody encouraged my sillyness I went ahead and got a start on a "Thing's You're Not Allowed To Do While Traveling With The Avatar" list. The jokes are probably a bit hit-or-miss, but the real fun with these is when lots of people start to contribute. So check it out here and make suggestions if you feel the urge.

Can I just point out that I only made this statement to show that I believe the wooden cell was purposed for Toph? Likely in cahoots with Blasty Forehead-Eyeball Man?

I am NOT trying to dispute the probability of Fire Nation people using wood in general. I am only saying that a prison cell, in particular, made completely of wood is a bad idea to imprison a rough sort who may bend fire or have firebender friends. (Unless there's some sort of magical "no firebenders commit crimes, or at least acts considered criminal in the Fire Nation" or political "all firebenders are impressed into the service of the Fire Lord and their misdemenors are taken care of by the military" sort of rule that I don't know about.) Not just because they could get out, but because that shite could take out a few city blocks.

The wooden cell actually reminded me a lot of the wooden prison cells used in feudal Japan. Given how many other feudal Japanese influences the Fire Nation seems to have, that's probably not a coincidence.

With most of the metal being earmarked for the war effort, more than one metal jail cell per town would probably be considered wasteful. And I'm sure any firebending prisoners would be shackled and watched like a hawk until they could be transferred into a proper dungeon.

What I was trying to point out was that neither bison nor manatees have anything to do with flying or air at all, which makes them an odd combination for the animal most associated with Airbending. Badgers and moles, meanwhile, are tunneling and burrowing creatures at least.

As for Appa's six legs, it's because flying bison are part bison, part manatee, and part Catbus from My Neighbor Totoro.

CM knew Toph was likely to get turned in and would have told the Fire Nation guards to prepare the suitable cell. I didn't even consider the general use of wood in the Fire Nation. Thought the use was quite self-evident with the context...

I want new Avatar!

Tangent -- an anecdote that made me smug.

A friend of mine was watching "Avatar" recently with his three-year-old nephew -- he'd heard me talk about it but had never seen it. Nephew is watching the show, and in order to answer the kid's fifteen million questions, my friend is on Wikipedia.


Nephew: *points to Appa* "Is that the monster?"
My Friend: *Googles "six-legged hamster monster with teeth"* *finds nothing*
Nephew: *points to Zuko* "Is that the monster?"
Friend: *Googles*
Nephew: *sees dragon* "Is THAT the monster????"
Friend: *continues to unsuccessfully Google*

So you can all probably imagine how satisfying it was for me to tell him, later, no, there is no monster in Avatar. Just characters. That's what makes it good.

(Also, I think I've made a convert.)


ETA, on reflection -- Perhaps Eyeball of Doom Man is meant for a monster? :-D

On the subject of Ty Lee writing a dysfunctional-family check her ass can't cash...I think it's possible that we can interpret it differently. Obviously Zuko's life is fucked up, but maybe her point is that he angsts all the time and doesn't realize that other people do have problems; they might not be as severe as his but it's wrong to assume that just because Ty Lee wears pink and has boobies and talks about makeup, she's in love with life and the world. The question "Do you have any idea what my home life was like?" could maybe be asking just that; that Zuko, Azula and Mai have absolutely no idea what her home life was like and can't pass judgment. Zuko and Azula's family histories are way more well-publicized, but dude, I didn't know Ty Lee was a quintuplet or whatever either.

Very good point and also in keeping with the fact that Ty Lee seemed to be trying to get through to Zuko.

But I also think we weren't getting anyone's full story on the beach. Or maybe I'm just hoping that's the case, but Mai's background just doesn't make sense. I saw no reason that she would disconnect from her emotions like that just because her mom was controlling out of worry for her father's career. (I would have thought that sort of home life would either make you rebel or nearly kill yourself trying to live up to some impossibe ideal.) I was expecting something more... Like she's actually the child from her father's first marriage which makes her feel like an outsider or gender coming into play when she is suddenly overshadowed by a much desired male heir. I just was expecting something more... emotionally painful. Because why else would you close off all emotions?

Perhaps not everyone reacts to situations the same way. Someone like Toph is put into such a situation and she rebels, but Toph is Toph. Mai seemed like she was a pretty quiet kid who was in her own head a lot anyways, add to that a family life that encourages conformity and you get current Mai, who is disconnected from life and manifest this by appearing bored.

Things I'm No Longer Allowed to do on Avatar:

I can no longer give Zuko free samples for concealer or face creams. Avon books also fall into this category.

He is also uninterested when the next Clinique special is occurring.

Jun does not moonlight as a stripper, and she isn't for hire for bachelor parties.

Don't ask Azula to roast marshmallows for you.

If she by chance does, make sure not to complain about it being too crispy.



Wow, that list is incredibly topical... I haven't seen a Redwall reference since I was in middle school!

Okay I can see Mai's reaction pretty easy. In my home town my father and pretty much all the elder members of my family were in public eye alot, which made me have a small town political influence. If I dared to make a C on even a progess report in school much less on my honest to god report card I was grounded, flat bloody grounded. I was not allowed to go out without adult escort until 15, at all, even to walk my dog. (Good thing I favor cats, but still I had a dog from 4-17.) I had siblings, but all were either significantly older and out of the house, or half siblings I've only seen a few times in my life. I began to hate gatherings of any kind because if I was there there would be pictures and talk and lord only knew what else that would fly around a town so small. My reaction to this was to do two things, three if you look at it a certian way. I had a different protocal of actions to follow given where I was and with who. When with my family I was very aloof and honestly almost exactly like Mai. Being neutral was being a good girl, showing affection in too large a way to anyone was bad, and being angry or negative was forbidden, esspecially in public. When in a public situation I would socialliteness to please those I spoke with so no words that would be bad could return to my mother thru the grape wine. Finally I had the real me, the one that only my closet circle of friends saw. I am not proper in my speech I am rather cold and calculating and above all else I don't hold back unless it's to spare them pain. I'm not openly insulting to anyone unless I'm mad, but I don't watch my words or actions with those I trust. The way Azula acts around her group is more how I am, she just says things how she see them, acts the way she wants to act, if that's reserved so be it if that's blunt and rash same for that. Mai's reserve is understandable if you've ever been the youngest member of a strict family where anything you say or do out of line would result in potential punishment. Sit quietly and read while mum and dad talk with these people now dear. My antisocial (no other term for it) habits were great for my mother when I was young, but when I turned teen she wanted to make me a real social go getter, she wanted me to go to all these events and things that just were everything I avoided. She said I wasn't normal (wonder why) and she wanted me to care about normal things like makeup and cloths not what was the newest video game that I could take to my room and hide with. Mai's reaction isn't abnormal, it's just not the norm or todays society. No wonder she fleed when given the chance. The thing is when I left my mother's home I didn't go wild like Toph, that was too much of a risk the way I saw it. I wanted simple things, I didn't feel the need to go try out all the things I missed, I'd opted to miss them as much as been kept from them. Mai is looking for a quiet place where what she does is not judged. Where she can just be another pretty face in the crowd and not have to be careful of every step breath and word she takes. She wants to be left alone so she can relax for a change. Even Azula's bossiness has to be better then just being told to shut up and sit still all the time to look like a living statue next to the rest of the family. I've been there, and I'd rather have a drill sergent breathing down my neck to clean the floor faster then have to smile pretty and fake nice words to another person I don't know or care about but have to impress for the sake of public image. It's miserable, lonely, and depressing to be the center of a crowd of people just cause of who's kid you are and not who you are. They don't even have to know your name much less you theirs but if they know you're this families such and such it can be a problem. I don't know about how I'd feel in Ty lee's place, but my home life was basically a cross of Toph's seclusion and Mai's politics, combine that with someone who's over all take on the world is like Azula's as far as approach (I'd rather not rule, but I can damn well have an opinion on what I'd do if I did get there.) and that's what you have writing this. It's not as tramatic as being scared physically or otherwise abused in that way, but the mental abuse of it is not easily over looked. I've spent years studing psychology now and understand that you can't just look at one thing when someone says what their life was like. Mom was controlling can mean alot more then it sounds like, so can I didn't get enough attention, and I don't know what I want. Problems don't have to sound or seem equal to measure up in the long run. They are still problems.

bluirinka
I do like the idea of somebody finally calling Zuko on his tendency to to be so busy angsting about his own problems that he doesn't notice or care about anybody else's. Zuko's a bit light in the empathy department and doesn't tend to think about how what he does affects other people. It's the same attitude that led him to steal an ostrich-horse from people who'd helped him, to contemplate stealing food from refugees, and to destroy the lives of hundreds of thousands of people for a pat on the head from his father. Zuko's a long way from being a psychopath like Azula, but he is kind of an asshole. (But then, it wouldn't be much of a redemption if he was a decent person to begin with.)


Quagmire
I'd always kind of wondered if that was why Mai was so casual about sacrificing her brother when Azula broke off the prisoner exchange: because she'd always resented him for being the one who'll inherit all the power just because he had a Y chromosome. But it's just speculation.

Quagmire
Ty Lee's reaction to Azula coming back into her life in Return to Omashu (not wanting to go with Azula, the look of fear on her face when Azula said she was staying for the show, being threatened into complying) gave me the impression that being Azula's childhood friend was not a pleasant experience, which is why I always took to the theory that Ty Lee's and Mai's personalities were reactions to Azula's psychopathy. (But on the other hand, Mai joins Azula's team without hesitation and with as much eagerness as she ever expresses.) They've gone back to the "parental issues" well so many times on this show that I guess I felt disappointed that they'd done so again... but that's just my personal tastes, I guess. The dialogue still seems anvilicious to me, though.


Novus Questus
Heh. I especially like the one about offering Zuko concealer. I'll add 'em to the list.

Novus Questus
I was quite the fan of Redwall books in elementary school. It's still the first thing that springs to mind whenever anybody tries to make a sword out of a meteor.

The pop culture wisecracks come way too easily. I had to make an effort to stop myself at only seven Fire Lord Ozai/Luke Skywalker jokes.




Ashfire, I want to thank you for your candor and your willingness to share such private information about your life. I concede the point.

I do like the idea of Mai being pissed off about TomTom b/c he's the male heir. HOWEVER I'm not sure it actually fits with the Fire Nation - we've seen Azulon totally favor Azula as a prodigy over Zuko, when if gender were an issue that probably wouldn't happen. Also we've seen a lot of female Fire Nation soldiers. I think there's way more gender equality in the Fire Nation than, say, the Northern Water Tribe had, and it's possible that Mai is still the heiress in her family.

It leads to an interesting question though - do you think Azulon intends for Azula to succeed him as the Fire Lady? I mean...he did think of Zuko as a failure, probably unfit to inherit the empire.

The current Fire Lord and Azula and Zuko's father is Ozai; Azulon is Ozai and Iroh's father and the kids' grandfather, the previous Fire Lord.

And it's a bit of a tricky situation right now. Currently, Ozai is under the impression that Zuko slew the Avatar and pretty much redeemed himself in his eyes. It's entirely possible that after years of doting on Azula and more than likely grooming her to take the throne someday, Ozai's favor may have shifted over to Zuko. Of course, this situation would only last until Ozai finds out that Zuko did not, in fact, kill Aang - which more than likely is part of Azula's master plan.

This is one of the reasons I wish we'd seen more of Ozai/Zuko/Azula in their "normal lives" up to this point in Season 3. We've seen Ozai's face now, but the man himself is still a huge mystery. On the one hand, he tortured and banished his son (with what was no doubt expected to be permanent or at least indefinite exile -- NO one thought Zuko was actually going to find the Avatar after all this time), and then apparently after hearing that the Avatar was loose but Zuko hadn't caught him, he sends out Azula and a ship to take Zuko and Iroh prisoner and haul them back home.

In other words, he didn't appear to have any intention whatsoever at any time of allowing Zuko to redeem himself. First Zuko is sent on an impossible mission, then when the mission starts to look possible after all, Azula is sent out to capture him and keep him from completing it (probably so she can do it herself and earn the glory.)

So, yeah. I'd say that Ozai had discarded Zuko completely in favor of Azula for most of the series.

Which makes the real question, how sincere is his welcome-back of Zuko? I suspect it's not sincere at all, and Zuko's being set up for a permanent (deadly) fall, but with him being publicly known as the Avatar-killer thanks to Azula, Ozai can't make Zuko quietly disappear. So he has to treat him like the honored prince for a little while. While I doubt Azula EVER has Zuko's best interests at heart, she may have saved him from a politically convenient death with her little lie about him killing the Avatar. Bit of a spoiler for 309: That "war meeting invitation" Zuko never got...he might have been correct to be suspicious, and the whole "Come sit at my right hand my honored son" treatment he eventually gets a put-on meant to quiet his suspicions.

I suppose it's even remotely possible Ozai is, oh I dunno, setting things up to make it look like Aang kills Zuko during the DOBS (TOTAL speculation here, no spoilage involved) just in order to inflame more people against the Avatar. Get the "heroic prince returned from exile" conveniently killed during the fight and pin it on Aang, make him look evil. Or heck, just get Zuko "heroically killed" by ANYone. Get him out of the way with no political consequences and let Azula take the throne.

On the other hand, if Ozai is a big enough monster to plot to kill his "disappointment" son and make way for his favored daughter, why hasn't he killed Iroh yet? Respected war leader older brother originally slated for the crown, now a proven traitor....why does Iroh still have his head?

I'd really like to get a better feel for what Ozai's deal is. Is he a decent man turned evil by ambition and bitterness? Or is he a total sociopath like his daughter right from the start? Or is he one of those rulers who thinks showing any sign of weakness, even toward his son, will give his political enemies too much leverage? We know so little about him, and some of what we know looks contradictory.

I actually apologize for ranting so, but because of the life I had everyone expected me to go as far as Toph has and that is personally insulting, it's like when I meet 'old friends' from high school the first question is how many kids do you have like they expected me to go out and do everything that walked in front of me. People are people they react differently given the same situation in different context, there are standard or 'normal' reactions for everything, but that doesn't mean they're absolute. I hadn't meet to go so in depth but it's one of my ticks. I thing Ty lee while interesting is a good example of normal reaction to her situation. Who wants to be basically a number in their family's mind? Which raises the question just what are the names of her siblings and where did she fall in the order. I think Ty lee's casualty about life is an excellent foil to Azula's intesity, Mai's aloofness, and Zuko's I hate to admit but emo tendencies.
I love Ty lee's character design and how she fits, what I don't understand is how she at the same time in my head is the example of a normal girl and pretty much a dnd Monk class at the same time. Anyone who's played dnd in my group she's watched a fight with Ty lee in it looks at here and sees the appidime of that class. I've favored that class cause it gets to be so great and versitile, but when I think about it it becomes I kind of ethereal thing where I can't really imagine a character in a show being that text book and I guess it de humanizes her in some way if that's the right term for it. She's more two dementional to me and yet she's supposed to be the most full of life character we've seen save maybe Toph. I was hoping for something to come out in her history that would make her unique and maybe a little more dramatic. Setting the picture in my head of 6 Ty lee's in a row all dressing in identical outfits save for color just makes her less of a character and more replaceable in some way, it is irritating. I wanted her to be special in some other way. I prefered the concept that she'd been given an arranged marriage and she ran away to the circus cause of it, that would fit her in a way and would have left room for a new character to appear in the series. There are all sorts of ways that they could have made her more, well I can't really discribe it but just more.

BTW I have something to add to the list of things that cannot be done:
Convince Aang to say to Zuko: "Zuko I am your great grandfather."
That may have been on the list already I've seen it somewhere else just can't remember where.

I think what the case may be about the idea of Azula taking the throne is that she would rather not be in the spotlight. She may have even talked this over with her father as cunning as she is. I think she would rather puppet the empire then run it directly, or run the military while not having to get involved politically. She doesn't seem the type for politics, she'd rather be fighting just for the sake of fighting. She probly caught her father's attention the first time when having her dolls fight or something and he saw potential. I'd like to tell myself that Ozai didn't see his daughter and automatically think to make her a killer. I really would.

One thing I'd like to add is that it is a bit premature for Ozai to be seriously considering his heir. Ozai is in the prime of his life and positioned to conquer the world when Sozin's Comet returns - he's not about to hand that kind of power over to either of his kids when even he hasn't had the opportunity to enjoy it yet. So while he's favored Azula for years, he's not exactly ready to install her as Fire Lady just yet. (This, of course, does not take into account any plans Azula herself may have to possibly depose her father before or during the return of Sozin's Comet.)

As for Zuko, I think Ozai doesn't quite know what to do with him right now. He's alternately tolerated and despised his son for years; remember the "born lucky/lucky to be born" story? Ozai has never had a reason to actually be proud of Zuko...until now. Azula conquered Ba Sing Se, sure, but Zuko allegedly killed the Avatar, which trumps even that. I think that if nothing else, Ozai is reevaluating his image of Zuko and any plans he's made for his son's future. I wouldn't put it past the show to throw the curveball of Ozai actually siding with Zuko against Azula, if Azula ever turns on her father outright.

Iroh, meanwhile, is an example of Ozai's complacency, I think. After the death of Lu Ten, Iroh lost the overt will to contest his brother for the throne and fight for his birthright. For years, he's been content to simply be General Iroh and left to his own devices while Ozai rules the Fire Nation. I suspect that Ozai hasn't seen his brother as an actual threat for years, and that's why he's been content to let Iroh live - barring trying to have him and Zuko captured and/or killed by Azula. Since Iroh has been reconditioning himself for all-out war while in prison, Ozai's writing Iroh off will undoubtedly come back to bite him in the ass later.

I have an odd question.
How many here think Iroh was buffing up long before his imprisonment?
It takes months, sometimes years to get a body like that. All the young pictures of him still have him with a belly, even as a soldier. Could he have been secretly preparing for this almost inevitable fight from say the moment they found Aang alive? That would have given him enough time, and being a refugee is one heck of a way to loose weight fast, you can look at Zuko and see visible changes in his figure, esspecially in his face, but Iroh tends to stay round about the same. How long has he been training himself. I mean really the couple of months at best he's been imprisoned there is just no way to pull it off, working 24/7 he couldn't. The look he gave him before starting the Rockyesk montoge sort of thing gave the impression that that was the first time he started working out. That just can't be possible. So has he been gearing up so to speak to kick his little brother's ass for alot longer then he's let on? I mean he has to have been working out quite some time right?

The link is broken, but someone once did a pixel challenge motivational poster ("Nudity: Not All Scars Are Physical") showing Zuko recoiling from the sight of a nude Iroh in a bath; Zuko still has his season 1 appearance, and Iroh is verifiably fat. So if Iroh was in training prior to this season, it would have been at some point after the episode that image came from.

That scene is way back from the "Winter Solstice, Part 1."

I believe the implication is that Iroh didn't start his bodybuilding regimen until his incarceration. While I'm sure being a wandering refugee would help melt off the pounds, I think that Iroh would have been perfectly happy to live out his days as Ba Sing Se’s most successful tea shop owner and let global politics take their course. It was only after events (and Zuko’s idiocy) forced his hand that he began gearing up for a one-man war. While it is a bit unrealistic for someone to be able to go all “300” in under two months, this is the same show where someone can become a master swordsman in 36 hours.

bluirinka
More gender equality than the NWT, sure, but I suspect it's still a long way from equal. We see women doing enforcement work on the homefront, but none serving overseas, which makes me wonder if they're filling in while so much of the male population is off fighting in the war... sort of a "Rosie the Riveter" thing (and certainly no one would call the 1940s gender-equitable). And the enforcers are always under the command of a male officer. There were no women in Ozai's war room. All five Fire Sages are male. The last four Fire Monarchs have been male. Stuff like that makes me think that while the Fire Nation may be ahead of its time in that regard, it's still got a long way to go. So it wouldn't surprise me if Mai's parents considered their male child their heir.


Well, Ozai stole the throne to begin with, so's probably not too attached to the usual rules of succession. Ultimately, he seems to consider it a sort of ruthless meritocracy: the strongest shall rule. And Azula's natural ability for firebending just so far eclipsed her brother, and her souless ruthlessness and manipulative mind so outclassed him, that Ozai probably thought Zuko looked like a wuss by comparison, even though he's pretty badass compared to most. Of course, now that Zuko's proved his chops by supposedly killing the Avatar, he may be reconsidering.



Redthorn
I've been sort of assuming that that was Azula's plan for the DOBS: let the Dai Li off Zuko while he's depowered and pin it on Aang or Toph, thus making sure that the throne is hers. I hadn't considered that Ozai might. Interesting thought.

Although, if I'm right that Ozai plans to give the throne to whichever child proves the stronger, then he won't try to off either of them. He'll sit back and let them try to take each other out, confident that the more worthy of the two will be the one to survive.



Ashfire
Wasn't on the list before, but I'll add it on the next update. :-)


I suspect that Ozai always intended both of his children to be killers, since it seems that Fire Nation royalty are expected to do military service. But as for when he started to favor Azula, I'd guess it would be when she started to demonstrate such an incredible natural talent for firebending. Maybe she started producing flame at an incredibly young age, or was already starting to produce blue flames. Come to think of it, Azula's the only firebender we've ever seen produce blue flame. Iroh, for all his incredible skill and power, doesn't. Sozin, who fought a volcano, didn't. Roku, the Avatar, didn't. There are likely firebenders more powerful than Azula through skill and experience, but I think the sheer amount of natural ability she has might be unprecendented. For the Fire Nation, producing blue flame might be like pulling the sword from the stone.


Yeah, but people being able to train themselves up in an absurdly short amount of time is something of a conceit of the genre. When Sokka trained with Suki, and again when he trained with Piandao, he made weeks or months worth of progress in a matter of days. Katara went from simplistic waterbending to being named a Waterbending Master in three months.

Chrysaor is right that Iroh was clearly carrying some extra weight back in Book 1. His rotund belly was definitely him and not padding, as it is now. But I suspect he hadn't let himself go entirely. He must have still managed to keep some decent muscle under the fat he gained from a relaxed post-military lifestyle of loving good food. It just wouldn't be possible for him to fight the way he did if he wasn't still in pretty good physical condition.

Besides, imprisonment in a dungeon with nothing to do but work out (and eating crappy prison food) probably really melts those pounds off.

I still haven't seen all of the older episodes, but has there been anything to hint that Ozai might have killed Lu Ten, just to dishearten him and put him out of the running for Fire Lord?

Oh, and on Iroh's journey from rotund to buff? Just 'cause he had a gut didn't mean there wasn't muscle beneath. He could have had a good deal of this muscle for a while (though not all of it obviously, or else he wouldn't need to be doing the exercises), and only needed to lose the blubber covering it. There are a lot of aging football players and the like who fit that profile. Formerly very athletic, still have the body type to suit activity, but have gone to seed with leisure.

Nothing specific. Nothing overt. But it's just so convenient, Lu Ten's death. So exactly what Ozai needed. I just can't shake the feeling that Ozai arranged it. And likewise for Azulon's death soon after.

Zuko Alone (Book 2, Chapter 7) features a number of flashbacks to around the time Lu Ten and Azulon died, from Zuko's perspective. And not long before Lu Ten's passing, Azula practically says, "So, if Uncle were to have some sort of 'tragic accident,' would Dad be Fire Lord?" And after Lu Ten's death, Ozai moves in to try and supplant Iroh without a moment's hesitation. And lots of people smelled shenanigans with Azulon's supposed "dying wishes" that Ozai succeed him. It just screams "assassination plot" to me, and a brilliantly devious one at that.