Okay, so here's the deal, I'm opening this topic 30 mins early because the timelock isn't working and I will be on my commute home when the episode ends. Other mods have been great about ensuring that my threads open on time but it isn't fair to make them keep policing this.

If anyone posts in this thread during the episode, you will be banned.

Well I'll be damned. Dub'ya is a Romulan spy.

In retrospect, that just sounds so right.

Good lord, can't these idiots keep their hands off the canon Trek? Romulans? Vulcans in league and meeting with Romulans?

Will the insanity ever stop?

Oh yeah. THIS episode? Feh. This is supposed to be the start of the glorious Federation? A whiny little religious conflict, the King of all MacGuffins, and a fleet battle with like... 10 ships?

Oh.

Wow.

Oh. SHIT. Now that's an ending. I haven't exclaimed "Holy Shit" since Best of Both Worlds. (Well, I guess Azati Prime counts too, if only for the 'Enterprise Gets the Shit Beat Out of It' factor) But this? Me likey! If only the local UPN affiliate wasn't run by CRACK WHORES who couldn't figure out how to get both the sound and video working.



Well, this isn't really the start of the Federation. It's more like a retconning of what really happened to the Vulcans on the way to the Federation. I think the religious conflict is a bit more than just religious--it's about changing exactly who the Vulcans are. Prior to the Kir'shara, Vulcans claimed logic, but really didn't follow the path. The discovery of Surak's teachings will put the Vulcans on the path to being the Vulcans we all know and love (well, Sisko's Vulcan rival notwithstanding).

What was with the ridges on the Romulan's head? Is he half Klingon? I missed the first 15 min. I have to say that I hate how they have ruined the Vulcans. I hate that Archer got to do the move. Didn't keckler write that the katra doesn't make you into you know a Vulcan? Why must they ruin this?

I don't see a canon problem. In fact it kind of ties in with the discussion of Spock's expression in Balance of Terror. I liked this ep, but did you catch the pout Malcolm gave when he caught Trip and Soval alone? ;-)

ETA The Romulans grew ridges from their first TNG appearance, as I recall.

Hey the Romulans are back! How cool! Maybe we'll get to see some Tal Shiar action.

So Archer can kick 5 vulcans butts huh. Yeah...next he'll find himself in the middle of a street fighting 100 vulcans shortly after consulting with the oracle. May as well. Nice to see the writers pay no attention to Keckler's comment about McCoy not being able to 'Nerve Pinch' the alien btw.

Wonder how Archer is going to pay Shran back twice. At least this indicates Shran will be back later on.

'Our forces are committed! We can't turn back now!!' Thanks for hitting us over the head with your political views people.

Anyone know who the generic old man was? If they need years to under stand the Kir'Shara, why give it to someone who is just gonna croak in a few years?[ETA: Assuming Surak's Katra is needed to understand the Kir'Shara but the same question applies to Surak's Katra] Btw, anyone else think some sort of goofy message was gonna come up when Archer(of course it was him) unlocked the Kir'Shara. Click, click, click....'Drink Coke, play again'.

Good episode, though i was a tad disappointed. First episode of the arc...building up, second episode of the arc....building up even more, third episode of the arc...umm that's it? Meh...maybe when the romulans have their unification arc in feburary or so it'll shed more light on this episode.

ETA: See above

Nice jaw-dropper on the ending, certainly. I for one had not seen it coming, but probably should have (I guess I'm just not that cynical).



No, he's a TNG Romulan. Remember, no TOS species had ridges! That all came later, with better latex and bigger budgets.

ETA: No spoilers, please, shadow81dan...

Shran!

Lirpas!

Nerve pinches!

Romulans!

What's not to like about this episode for every overweening, couch-concaving, canon-quoting fan????

As far as i know i didn't spoil anything. The romulan mentioned unification and i would guess it wasn't for no reason. Besides...i doubt they've even written anything for feburary..i only said it b/c it would be a good way to generate ratings for sweeps.

As for the romulans having ridges. I seem to remember the klingons looking like the TNG era klingons, the ferengi looking like the late TNG, early DS9 era ferengi, so why not have the romulans break contuinity in like fashion?

Thanks for the info guys. I feel better about the ep now.

Dude. *Cartman voice* That ending was sweeeeet. Of course he's a Romulan sympathizer.


And that was the best episode yet this season. Keep on doing what you doing, guys......

Another week of Continuity Porn....and god, I am so glad they have finally resolved the Pa'nar thingie. Though my hope that the T'Pau meld would have removed all the CRACK WHOREage was sadly mistaken.

Why can't we kill Archer and have Captain Trip for the rest of the series....please?
-He's smart, he considers all sides, and he doesn't react to criticism with yelling. I loved that scene with Malcolm and how it switched back and forth from "Trip and Malcolm" to "Captain and Lieutenant." And Trip confiding in Soval...
-He can be damn intimidating when he wants to.
And he has the loyalty of his crew. True, they looked uneasy when he plopped them in the middle of the crossfire, but they knew he had a plan. Though that was a great comedic moment when the firing suddenly stopped and Archer comes over the Comm....."What the hell is going on?

Shran!!!!!!!! Oh how I wish it could be the Trip, Soval and Shran Show. "Tell Archer that's two he owes me." And how Jeffrey Coombs can make me sympathize with him while he's torturing another character I like, I don't know. ( On the subject, brava to Gary Graham...that's was hard to watch.)

Though I basically put up with the SuperArcher scenes to get to the next ship scene, I did like T'Pau. Co'lin Po'well was pretty cool too. And the story's eventual resolution...or was it?

I am actually anticipating the next episode....that's a very nice feeling.

It sounds like I missed quite the episode. Unfortunately, my UPN affiliate decided to be a moron and show a basketball game. You know, maybe this show would get better ratings if people could actually watch it when they wanted to. Eh, my mom taped it for me back home. At least, from most of your comments, I have something to look forward to.

Wow, what an ending.

In the scene where Soval tells Trip "That's what Captain Archer would do," and Trip responds with "That's what..." I SWEAR I thought he was going to say "I'm afraid of." So much so that I was genuinely surprised to hear him finish with "I keep telling myself."

T'Pau really seemed to warm up to Archer, and she really shouldn't have.

I also liked the scene between Trip & Mal, and how they got very professional and distanced with each other ... and then later on the bridge, there was no evidence of it. They're friends and professionals, and act like it.

In other words, GOD I wish Trip was Captain.

Even worse, he can beat them on the surface of Vulcan, where Kirk had trouble simply beating ONE Vulcan--and he was hopped up on drugs.

Feh. Again. Couldn't they have at least showed Phlox giving Cap'n Furrows a magic shot before going down to the surface?

That ending was pretty cool. My inner monologue went something like this:

"There's the fade to black. Huh. I guess that Prime Minister guy wasn't a Romulan. There's more?..........A HA!"

He may not actually be a Romulan, but he's the next best thing. Beggars can't be choosers.

As for the rest of the episode: Shran and Soval rocked all over the place, Trip continued to win me over, and the Kir'Shara had pretty visual effects. The Andorian transporter beam though? Not so much.

I don't see how Shram insists this is two that Archer owes him two now. As far as I can see, Enterprise risked itself by going to Andoria, saved his people from galactic warfare, then went the extra distance to actually show up for the fight itself. That sounded like decent payback to me. If anything, Shram owes them.

I wonder if it was my TV or ears but Trip lost the accent during a scene? Did anyone notice?

Nice ending, and for once, a nice twist ending (although I'm worried about ANOTHER arc involving Quantum trying to stop a war).

Just some random less-than-elegant thoughts:

-Dub’ya and the RepubliVulcans, going to war over bad information. No, they’re not hitting us over the head with metaphors from current events at all, are they?

-I still like Captain Trip, especially after Soval tells him he’s doing what he thinks Quantum would do. Trip just had a look of “Well, crap. Maybe this isn’t such a good idea after all.”

-I’m still game for The Shran Show! even if he likes to mentally torture dudes. Or maybe because of it. Jeffery Coombs is fun in whatever alien make-up they stick him in. I wonder how TNG would have turned out if Coombs ended up getting the role of William Riker instead of Jonathan Frakes, as I read earlier this week.

-Why the hell did they edit the hot girl-on-girl mind-melding action? That scene was just getting good. Still, as far as I can tell, that’s a nice continuity patch-up job with the melding. Except for...

-So it’s not enough that Quantum has SURAK’S FUCKING KATRA, and the FUCKING KIR’SHARA, he gets the FUCKING NERVE-PINCH too?! Oh, come on. And I’m sorry, but Vulcans are still WAY STRONGER than humans. Quantum can’t take out three of them. Give. It. Up.

-The ending with Dub’ya in the cave: my initial response was “Oh, no. Not Shower Guy. Please don’t let it be Shower Guy. FOR THE LOVE OF KAH’LESS, DO. NOT. LET. IT. BE. SHO- - oh, a Romulan. Oh, okay that’s cool.”

-I thought they wrapped the arc quite nicely. And I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again, it’s fun watching Star Trek. They just need to lose the catsuits and That Damn Song.

I don't remember the Andorians being so crabby in TOS. Hm. Too bad for Koss, he could have gotten some Vulcan nookie before he left! ;P

T'Pol remind anyone else of 7 of 9 in this episode? Or is my mind slowly slipping?

R-r-r-r-omulans have R-r-r-r-idges! (Sorry, I couldn't r-r-r-r-esist.)

My thoughts exactly.

I thought the scene between Archer and T'Pol immediately after he had been a condescending asshole ("If you want to rest, you should say so.") was really well done. I know everyone here hates the Captain, but I maintain that Bakula can act when he's given halfway decent material to work with.

There were plotholes you could fly a starship through (For example, only Quantum, T'Pol, and T'Pau knew they had found the Kir'Shara. How come the captured Syrannites were able to tell the High Command?) but it was still a pretty good episode. However, T'Pol being cured of her P'Naar Syndrome and being released from her marriage both smacked of Deus ex Machina.

The torture scenes went on too long, or there were too many of them or something. They became repetitious.

I thought it was pretty amazing that an artifact that had been lying in a dusty cave for 1800 years still worked. Also, Vulcans had holographic technology that long ago? Shouldn't they have really super-duper technology by now? It doesn't seem all that much more advanced than Earth's.

With all it's flaws, I still liked it.

Positives:



I loved that scene. I even loved the "rest" line (my take on it was that Archer was teasing T'Pol).

Other positive: SHRAN!!!! (As always.)

Negative:

My f*cking DVD recorder CUT OFF THE ENDING!!! Can someone please tell me what happened? (From the thread, I take it was a major twist.)

God, I hate Quantum. God, I hate Quantum. God, I hate Quantum. God, I hate Quantum. God, I hate Quantum. God, I hate Quantum. God, I hate Quantum. God, I hate Quantum. God, I hate Quantum. God, I hate Quantum. God, I hate Quantum. God, I hate Quantum. God, I hate Quantum. I hate every single second wasted on him.

Moving on to the positive which, for once, far outweighed the negative.

It was revealed that Dub'ya is either a Romulan or Romulan sympathizer. He met with a real live Romulan in a cave (of course!) and tried to get off of the planet. The Romulan told him it was too risky for Dub'ya do disappear now and the current situation was only a minor delay. To quote the Romulan, "The reunification of our people is only a matter of time."

Oh, word! I was thinking to myself that the ending really sucked as the screen faded to black (tricky David Livingston!) but then we ended up in the cave. When the Romulan started to talk I automatically knew he was a Romulan, but I was too afraid to actually believe it. And then they showed his face. And then I jumped up and down on my sofa. Shut up.

Not that I ever doubted her, but Keckler was 100% right to nickname whatshisname Dub'ya, wasn't she. That particular anvil was big enough to knock our civilization back to the Stone Age.

Did you guys see the look Malcolm shot Soval after Reed dismissed him? Me thinks Malcolm is a twee bit jealous of his lovah's new relationship with a certain Vulcan.

OMG, OMG, OMG, OMG, OMG, OMG, OMG, OMG! They mentioned T'Pol's Panar Syndrome! That makes me so much happier than it should!

I really liked the scene between T'Pol and T'Pau, especially when T'Pol apologized for letting her emotions erupt. Now if only she would apologize for all those other times.

The Vulcan cruisers dropping out of warp looked really cool.

Never mind.

Bless you, tothemax. I definitely need to watch the repeat airing over the weekend!

I guess I was the only one that wasn't excessively bothered by Super-Quantum kicking Vulcan tail. I fanwanked that Surak was probably a pretty harsh fighter, and was letting Quantum borrow his knowledge of lirpa techniques and Vulcan soft spots (nice shot to the heart when he was fighting the Homeland Security Vulcan there near the end. My roommate thought it was the kidney, but I know my Vulcan physiology, by golly!). I'm still working on fanwanking the whole nerve pinch thing - maybe the problem wasn't McCoy's strength, but his style? <shrug>

Hell yeah!! I was thinking how cool it was that the first step to Federation forming was being done by these three, especially how cool it was that it was Trip who was making the decisions (going to Andoria, putting the Enterprise in the middle) - and then they had to have fucking Quantum be the hero and save the day by bringing SURAK'S FUCKING KATRA into the High Command. Gah.



That they brought up the P'Naar thing was nice, that they cured it was good. I don't mind her being released from her marriage, that seemed obvious, but I don't really like that her [pause] husband would have released her. That seemed kind of passive. I think it would have been nice if she asked, politely and without recrimination, to end it.

I couldn't stand Quantum once again being the hero while T'Pol gets knocked out. I couldn't stand the nerve pinch. Basically, once again, I couldn't stand Quantum. He lost all the brownie points he earned from me last week.

I didn't mind T'Pau, but I don't have the TOS background like many of you. She seemed calm and superior, so Vulcanish enough for me!

I, too, thought it was Shower Guy at the end and went "Huh? A Romulan? What does this mean?" so I guess its off to ask about trekverse history canon stuff for me!!

There's no reason that Archer shouldn't be able to do a nerve pinch. It's a physical technique so why should only Vulcans be able to do it? McCoy probably just had a weak grip or something.

I also cringed at the martial art bits. It'd be one thing if Archer used techniques that turned an opponent's strength against him but straight-on punching and kicking with Vulcans? And this is just fan-wanking here but maybe Surak helped Archer suppressed the pain of the multiple hits he received.



Well, according to Spock's World (which may not be canon but seems pretty well-accepted) Vulcan was quite advanced but they were so violent that they kept almost destroying themselves, so it shouldn't be a surprise that it's taken a while to rebuild their technology. Also, it seems likely that they spent their time working on their mental disciplines and such rather than build ships.

There are problems but I think many problems that viewers had about how Vulcans are portrayed were fixed a little. Not all Vulcans followed Surak's teachings the same way or even agree what that way is so of course they don't all act like Spock. It's accepted that emotions should be controlled and that logic is important but apparently there are different degrees for each sect or whatever. This will probably change now though.

This? I loved. Forget Manny Coto, I'm going back to my first Enterprise-writer-love, Mike Sussman. Sussman, you rock.

Captain Trip was great. Shran, great as always. I really liked the scene where Archer and T'Pol talked. Just a great character moment for both of them. Just the fact that this whole incident makes Archer understand Vulcans better does so much for his character.

And the Romulan ending was so awesome.
Nothing in canon forbids that.

The only problem I had with this is that T'Pol never really suffered from it. So what was the point? She's diagnosed with it, no one ever mentions it again, until the day it's cured. I'd rather have seen them put it to some use. But I guess it's better that she's not suffering from both Panar and Trellium withdrawal. One thing at a time, please.
Archer is stronger than McCoy, and Surak's a better Vulcan than Spock, so I guess it's possible.

"Ah sijjest yew huury."

I would've given anything at that moment for Shran to whip out his sidearm, then have it plucked from him by Soval as he uses it to dispatch that acting-captain himself. Nevermind that Soval and Trip looked pretty, silent, standing together. Trip's only a marginally less irritating man than Furrows.

I am surprised they didn't kill off Soval for showing these people up. Even when CRACK WHORING under duress he's a million times more watchable than they are.



Word. Vulcan hunters are more than enough to bury him despite his ceaseless entitlement. I cheered at every rare strike that bashed into Furrows. The only other good thing was T'Pau showing off more effective moves, taking control, and watching him with unconcealed disdain when he insisted on "helping" her up before he stomped away. But, maybe not so much the parts where she kept him from taking blows.

A new...era. Gawd. HATE.

Why are these Vulcan "invasion" ships so weak and puny when we've seen their larger more powerful combat-cruisers? Is this TPTB's clever attempt to keep Enterprise from gloriously shattering?

Okay I have to admit I was jumping up and down at the end of the episode (partially because I called it halfway through). Bring on the Romulans!

This episode proved that, much like DS9, it's the supporting characters that I love on this show. Soval and Shran were probably the best parts of this episode. I also have to say I have finally come around to liking Trip. I know it took me a lot longer than others on the boards, but he rocked as acting captain in this episode. The Archer/T'Pol stuff wasn't as good.

Again, bring on the Romulans!

Would it not be awesome if the Remens from ST: Nemesis were involved. It would certainly be a cool continuity boost for the movie and, to me at least, be a pretty cool new species to really delve into. Maybe the Vulcans and Remens ally in some way?

Wishful thinking in all likelihood but I thought i'd toss that out.

The only problem is that the Romulans really have to be acting from the shadows otherwise it violates continuity (the Federation has no idea what the Romulans look like until Kirk's time, right?) So any plot with the Romulans has to be handled carefully. It would be neat though if Enterprise came up against the Remans and thought them to be Romulans or something,

Word to the Trip, Shran and Soval show...maybe if we started a petition...

Did anyone else love Trip switching from captain to engineer mode when they entered the nebula?

A very evil part of me was hoping the secret-shadow-man was Admiral Forrest...I mean, we never did see a body did we?

The humans have no idea. Whether or not the Vulcans know is open for interpretation. And "open for interpretation" means "open for Enterprise to establish". Also, just because V'Los knows doesn't mean Vulcan at large knows.
One of the earliest theories about Shower Guy was that he was a Romulan. It's possible we've just met Shower Guy and don't know it, and won't know it for years, if the show lasts that long.

So, not only am I annoyed with Quantum carrying (as keckler so eloquently put it) SURAK'S FUCKING KATRA, now he's performing a FUCKING VULCAN NERVE PINCH! Hate. Him. So. Much. Dump Archer and the Crack Whore, let's see Captain Trip.

From "Broken Bow" I had always assumed Shower Guy was really Admiral Forrest, which I guess is why he's known as "Evil Admiral Forrest." I was so sure of it, I kept looking for clues to his Shower Guyness every time he came on screen.

Forrest: "Good luck, Archer."

Me: "Oooooooh. What did he mean by that?"

I still find it hard to believe that he's even dead. So maybe now he has a new job as a Romulan.

I loved it but it was a bit of an anti-climax. The ending rocked though but all that stuff with Archer? Not so much. Is it wrong that I think I'm tuning in partly to see if he snuffs it every week?

As much as I do like Shran, why does Archer owe him two now? I mean, Enterprise just saved his planet from war.

T'Pau's State Fair Sehlat Calling technique had me rolling on the floor. I don't know why but it just seemed hilarious to me.

When they said vulcans were going to back off humanity at the end, I panicked. "Does this mean no more Soval?!" Because I got to really liking him in these three episodes.

And when the priest got the Katra out of Archer's head I thought they should have picked a younger priest. I know Vulcans live a long time, but that guy looked not all that hearty.

I love Trip being in charge. Just leave Archer on Vulcan, Trip! Get out while you can!

I think Soval will either return to his post as Ambassador to UE (I mean, just because Vulcan will stop treating Earth like a child doesn't mean it's cutting off all relations) or he will assume a larger role in the Vulcan government.

Speaking of which, I was confused when Soval announced to Archer the dissolution of the High Command. I mean, wasn't that the Vulcan government entity? Are they going to become some sort of "enlightened anarchy" now?



I'm all for having Romulans on the show, I've always wanted to know more about them and the little development they recieved in Nemesis just wetted my appetite wanting more. If they only didn't have that pesky thing about human not seeing Romulans until "Balance of Terror". Maybe they could use this opportunity to develop the story behind of Earth-Romulan relations from both points-of-view.

As a side note, when I saw the last scene the way the scene was lit, I immediately recognized the checkboard design of a (24th century) Romulan Navy uniform, which kinda took away the surprise factor for me. Was it just me? I missed the episode (pre-empted by high school football...yeah...) so I had downloaded the episode internet so this may something to do with it.

I was in Tokyo last week, and watched a ep from earlier in the series, where the mine gets attacked to the ship, and the Romulans keep showing up to order them to leave, and T'Pol said something along the lines that the Vulcans were aware of the Romulans existence, but didn't know what they actually even looked like. Or something along those lines, so I had always assumed that the Vulcans don't really know much about them.

gosh, trip and soval and shran are good.



i did, it was cute, his facial expression when he told malcolm he had the bridge and dashed off. multitasking captain! wooh!



It would only be a century after the founding of the Federation that they find out Romulans are actually Vulcan descendants. According to Canon, no humans and Vulcans ever saw a Romulan even during the 100 years war.

Yes! I thought it was cute too. And to an earlier post, I also noticed his accent dropped completely during a scene. Sometimes Trinneer does that when Trip is deadly serious about something, so I assumed that was what was going on.



This is friggin' hilarious.

There's a TOS episode where Kirk envies Spock for the nerve pinch, saying he wishes he could do that. Spock responds that he's tried to teach him. The implication is that humans couldn't get it together.



While the second point is spot on, phasers wouldn't work in The Geordi, so you had to bust out the low-tech.



Ah, but he played the Romulan second-in-command (Tal?) in "The Enterprise Incident" so I didn't care.

They were still in The Geordi, so energy weapons wouldn't work. Great excuse to bring in lirpas! Loved them.

They mentioned both the High Command and the High Council. I assumed the latter was the actual governing body, and the former the military branch of it, which was what they abolished. (Though they seemed rather interwined.)

I figured that since Shran saved the ship twice, even if Enterprise was trying to avert a war, Shran figures Archer owes.

I loved that Shran didn't respond when Soval announced himself, but did answer Trip. And I must also echo the love for the Trip and Malcolm scene. Can we please, please have Trip, Malcolm, Hoshi and Travis have their own ship. Oh, and Phlox too.

I loved Soval. It irks me, though, that we got such great character development for a recurring character than for one of the regulars. Can we please, please have an episode like Lower Decks with Travis and Hoshi? Please?

It seems many loved the Romulan twist at the end. I must admit, I was a little irritated with it. It seemed too, I don't know, forced. But, I guess they are trying to please their audience, so I'll give them that. And as soon as I saw that checkered fabric, I knew it was a Romulan, so the reveal didn't surprise me all that much. At least it explained Dub'ya's emotions.

The nerve pinch - Okay, so I can buy that Quantum got learned the technique from Surak, and as long as we don't see him using the pinch again, I'm happy.

The lightning caves - "Gallimite deposits" react electrically with metal, right? Then why didn't T'Pol and Archer's rank pips get zapped? Do they only look metallic?