Anyone else want to grumble about how there is STILL no dvd set??

Me! Waves Hand I love me some Thirtysomething, although I haven't seen an episode since Bravo briefly ran it at a reasonable hour. Even though I am a good ten years younger than the characters and Southern, I could somehow relate to those elitist, whiny Yankees. Except Hope. Hate her. Anyone with me?

Hope, schmope. She was an overgrown teenager. Self-absorbed and self-righteous. I still miss Miles, even though he did turn despicable during the last few episodes.

Doesn't that apply to all the characters? Except Janie.

Seriously, this show was cancelled way too soon. And you're right, Knowlt Hoheimer, the lack of the DVD set is a travesty.

Couldn't TNT find a place for this just once a week in place of one of the infinite L&O reruns? No? All right, then. Never mind.

I wanted to be Mrs. Gary Shepherd. We could have read books together, he would have written me sweet poems while I brushed his hair. It would have been beautiful.

I agree, everyone was self-absorbed, self-righteous and whiny. I still want the entire series on DVD though.

How many seasons were there? I can't recall. I wasn't a fanatic about watching, but I would love to see the series again now that I'm "thirtysomething." Maybe it would make them less annoying.

How many years did this show run? I don't think Janey ever got out from underneath that table. Does anyone remember who portrayed Janey? I wonder if those kids ever got more work. The kid who plays Sam's son on ER reminds me of Ethan, but the real Ethan would be much older now.

Four seasons, IIRC. The last one (when Gary died) was way goofy.

I also can't believe and am seriously annoyed that there is no DVD yet. I was in my 30s when the show was originally on, and even though I am also southern, I could identify with the characters and situations. Hope occasionally annoyed me, but I thought she captured perfectly the guilt women go through with the stay-at-home-with-the-baby option vs. need-to-go-back-to-work-or-my-head-will-explode feeling. The character I just hated was Susannah, Gary's wife, who seemed like a judgmental bitch on wheels and married Gary, when he was supposed to be my husband, with whom I would curl up by the fire and read poetry.

There were 4 seasons, IIRC. And I want the entire series on DVD yesterday, along with every other series that Herskovitz and Zwick were involved in: Family, My So-Called Life, and Once and Again. I have never found any team better at creating multi-dimensional characters and situations. With thirtysomething, they did an extraordinary job of capturing the dynamics of family, friends, and workplace. I had the entire series on videotape, but my tapes have gotten so old they no longer work, and I am in serious withdrawal.

Twins Brittany and Lacey Craven played Janey and thirtysomething is their only acting credit. I guess their parents were't as pushy as Mr. and Mrs. Olsen....

Ethan was played by Luke Rossi and he would be in his mid-twenties by now. I think I remember reading in People magazine that he's in a band or something.

My reaction to this show can pretty much be summed up in the phrase "Mmm...Michael."

And yes, I want dvds.

BookWoman56, my tapes are running out of steam too! I thought I read somewhere that there were issues with music licensing, and that's why the show wasn't being released on home video. Whatever the problem is, I hope they work it out soon.

By the way, I loved Hope!! Yeah, she was kind of preachy at times, but I think she meant well... **hiding from any tomatoes coming my way!**

Knowlt Hoheimer, no tomatoes from me! ITA that Hope could be preachy at times, but she meant well. I've also read about the music licensing issues, and seriously hope it gets resolved soon. I'm just hoping they don't do what they did with Once and Again, which was to release the first season only on DVD, and then say that sales were too low to justify releasing the other seasons. I am not interested in buying just one season; I want the whole series as a package.

Even though this show has been off the air forever, there are still so many scenes that stick in my mind:

• Nancy, when she had cancer, telling Hope that she felt ok about Ethan, but that if she died now, Brittany wouldn't remember her. I can still tear up just thinking about that scene.
• Michael talking to Elliot about the way the babysitter and her boyfriend were looking at each other, and admitting that nobody is ever going to look at him that way again. Realizing you're never going to feel that intense teenage lust again can hit pretty hard.
• Hope hearing that her first lover has died (in an accident IIRC) and telling Michael how he came to her window one night, and asked her to go away with him. There was a line she said, something like, "How many times does that happen in your life," that just got to me.

Anyone else have favorite memories?

Favorite moments:

Ellyn telling Billy about her relationship with Jeffrey. "He left his wife for me. Turned out he's the kind of guy that just .. leaves."

Nancy telling Elliot the good news from her surgery. I loved Elliot's silent reaction.

Melissa's crying at the piano after Gary died. The raw sobbing, with Michael sitting beside her absolutely helpless. Elliot's reaction, coming down with a sickening thud from the joy of Nancy's good news. Hope's comment to Ellyn about how you're somewhat ready for it to be your parents, but something like this didn't make sense.

Ellyn's scene with Hope in the first episode where she admitted being angered by Hope's involvement with Janey taking away from their relationship. Ellyn admitted she was being a little irrational, and Hope saw that she had neglecting her friend.

Susannah's scene with Hope when Hope accused her of hating Gary's friends. "Did it ever occur to you that I'm just shy?" It made sense, Susannah feeling a bit like an outsider in that tight little circle, not yet having a place. It was great how Hope softened towards her, ending with Susannah taking a hot bath there.

Ellyn and Gary making the Thanksgiving stuffing together, talking about being friends of friends, but not yet being friends themselves. "Gary, Hi! Thud." "Ellyn, how's the job? Snore." Gary suggested they get through the evening without talking about "Hmmph" or "Mmmphl." And Ellyn called him "Bjorn."

As a single twentysomething when the show aired, I always related the most to Ellyn. I still do, as I'm still single and a latethirtysomething and still haven't found my Billy.

Man, it this ever true. So many nice little moments like this. I'm terrible at remembering them, but you guys are doing a great job reminding me. Thanks.

Something else I liked about the show was the way they addressed seeing yourself as an adult, coming to terms with your parents, and having an adult relationship with them. Ellyn observed in the Thanksgiving debacle episode that how, when you go "home" for the holidays, it's like saying where you live isn't really home.

Hope's relationship with her parents was interesting, especially when Hope and Michael went to visit them in Arizona for the 40th anniversary party. She was driven crazy by her mother, and yet she was almost a carbon copy in some ways - caretaker, nurturer, perfectionist, a bit of a martyr complex. She also didn't understand her parents' relationship, or how her father lived with her mother's ways, but came to accept it more on the trip and started seeing her parents as people rather than just her parents.

Michael took care of his father at the end, and that affected him deeply. He also had to see his mother happy with another man who was very different from Michael's father, and try to build a relationship with him.

Elliot's relationship with his mother was rather poignant, as it was addressed while Nancy was battling cancer. She was an alcoholic when he was growing up, but had gotten sober when he was an adult. I remember him sniffing her glass once when she went out of the room, which showed just how much it had affected him that he was scared to trust her sobriety. The visit with his mother was also a spiritual awakening for him, as he began re-exploring the Catholicism he'd abandoned.

Ellyn had grown up in a home where the parents had stayed together for her sake, and for appearances. She didn't have much of a chance to learn about what makes a good relationship. When her mother suddenly decided to divorce her father, it threw her for a loop and left her feeling very scared and insecure. That was when her life went into crisis - she cheated on and lost Woodman, and developed an ulcer. And her father couldn't even be bothered to come to her wedding to Billy.

Gary had a lot of unresolved anger at his father, and took it out on his mother in the episode where she comes to see Emma for the first time.

Nancy seemed to have the most adult relationship with her mother, but got frustrated by her mother's inability to really move on with her life, or create an identity for herself, after Nancy's father died.

Excellent points, Ms Chicklet. There was just so much that was good about this series, head and shoulders above so many other tv shows. Another well done aspect of the show was dealing with issues of mortality, which somehow just seems more noticeable when you're in your 30s than it had been earlier. In S1 Michael had to deal with learning that his father was terminally ill, and then cope with his actual death and the aftermath of that, including the squabbles with a sibling that all too often arise when the parent is no longer there as a buffer. While my own parents are still alive and I'm now in my late 40s, during my 30s I had friends who suddenly were faced with a parent's serious illness or death. Watching Michael handle this situation gave me huge insight into what my friends were going through, and also served as a reminder that eventually most of us have to face the death of our parents.

Later in the series, of course, came dealing with the serious illness or death of a spouse or friend. I really liked the fact that Nancy's cancer wasn't the typical tv character arc of a 3-episode illness: is the character sick; the character is sick; everybody rallies around the character and the character is cured. Nancy's illness was more drawn-out, sometimes very visible and sometimes in the background. Elliot didn't become a perfect husband overnight, and Nancy didn't behave like a saint during the entire illness. They had very human reactions, including Elliot attempting to reconnect to his religious upbringing. It seemed incredibly on point also that Nancy was worried that Brittany wouldn't remember her, which seemed half her feeling guilty that she wouldn't be there to be a good mother and half sorrow that her own child wouldn't remember how close they were.

The night when Hope got the call about her former boyfriend was very poignant. I believe it was a New Year's party or something similar, and she stayed quiet until later when Michael cornered her to ask what was wrong. That scene still gets to me, because it captured so well that sense of loss for someone from her adolescence. When this episode aired, I had also just recently learned that a former lover had just died in an accident, and I remember crying buckets during this scene. Learning that someone with whom you've been intimate is dead is just a weird blow to the psyche, and Mel Harris conveyed that dual sense of disbelief and sorrow just perfectly.

There were a few other instances of close calls, such as when Hope was in a car accident and Michael just froze when he saw the wrecked car. Ditto when Michael and Elliot were on the plane returning from a Minnesota Brands visit, and the plane suddenly lost altitude. Both times there was that sense of it just being luck that nothing worse happened.

Gary's death needs a separate post, preferably by someone else because I'm still in denial about it.

BookWoman56:



I remember Elliot talking to Michael after Gary's funeral and commenting on, as how you get older, it becomes more and more about "filling the time between the funerals." Which, as he said, could be pretty depressing or kind of sweet. He pointed out that death was going to be with all of them in some form or another for the rest of their lives.

One of Elliot's best lines ever was right after the plane recovered from the nose dive, when he looked at Michael and said, "I crushed your nuts" as he held up the packet of airplane peanuts Michael had given him right before the malfunction.

That scene made me laugh, especially after the tension of the rapid descent. When I was watching the malfunction, I remember thinking that surely they couldn't kill off two major characters. But then they turned the event into a way to show the different reactions to a near-miss with death. IIRC, Michael was just sort of stunned, while Elliot went home and he and Nancy had sex.

A lot of what appealed to me about the show was how characters reacted realistically to events and to what other characters were doing. For example, Melissa got pissed off (and rightfully so) when Michael and Elliot kept treating her as constantly available for photo work with no notice. Another thing was that Hope had serious problems with Ellyn having an affair with Jeffrey while he was still married. Her reaction wasn't the typical sitcom "express 2 minutes of moralistic concern and then just accept it as no big deal" character arc. Eventually Hope was able to deal with it, but it was very clear that she didn't condone Ellyn's behavior. It didn't upset her enough to end the friendship, but she thought Ellyn was way out of line. And that viewpoint seemed entirely in keeping with Hope's character.

Hope was my favorite. Anyone with me?

<crickets chirping>

I'm partial to Melissa (and any episode with David Marshall Grant!) but I always liked Hope.

I got the biggest laugh from the silly game show dream. When showcasing the collected works of Stephen King prize, Hope & Nancy had the most hilarious facial expressions.

Of the female characters, Hope was my favorite. She seemed well-balanced as a person, although I definitely liked her better after the first season when she was constantly obsessing over every aspect of parenthood. The impression I got from Hope was that she always tried to do the right thing. I also liked Melissa and Nancy, with Ellyn coming in fourth on the love-train. Just hated Susannah and really wished she had died instead of Gary.

For the male characters, Michael was the best husband, hands down. But Gary would be right up there for weekends of hot sex, poetry readings, and good discussions. Elliott was ok for humor on an occasional basis. And for some reason I found Miles sexy in a creepy way.

I always liked Nancy best, and (don't laugh) would gladly have raided her closet. All those long sweeping skirts, pretty boots, sweaters, and all that denim. A bit dated now perhaps, but at the time she looked like perpetual Autumn, and that's my favorite season.

Favorite episode was when she joined that support group for cancer patients and met that woman who kept trying to lead her astray. It just forced you to look at the situation from so many different perspectives. Nancy's new friend with her "I have cancer, hear me roar" attitude. She was great. The whole episode was. I liked the way Elliot called Nancy on how he felt she was shutting out the family. General rule is to let the sick person do what they want because they may not have long to be around, but the rules must be adjusted when you're a mom. Good episode.

I liked Nancy, but the way she screeched "ETHAN!" was scary.

I was always a Melissa fan. Having played the character of "Sandy" so well on "Rhoda" it was amazing how much she changed physically as well as personality wise. I remember that the actress--Melanie Maynard?--lost the weight quickly along with most of her hair. By the time thirtysomething came along she was a waif.

The episode that haunts me was the one where Hope finds the diary of a former owner of her house written in the 1940's. It was tied up in the woman's loss of a pregnancy and fear that she'd be widowed by the war along with Hope's qualms about becoming pregnant again. (The diary: "Mama says hope, and Mama says wait...")

In the end the spectre of the long ago war bride showed Hope her pregnant belly and Hope yanked Michael into the rose garden for some fertile thumping.

Schmaltzy, yes. But well done. I still see Gary and Melissa dancing to "Stardust"...

I've really enjoyed reading all the posts in this thread! Excellent analysis and thoughts from everyone.


One of my favorite memories is when Melissa was showing Janey the picture of Micheal on the day she was born so "She would always know how happy he was", and Hope immediately knowing Melissa should have custody if something ever happened to her and Micheal. Such a sweet little detail. It inspired me to do that with both my brother and sister.

Other scenes running through my head:

Elliott explaining to Ethan that he was always the father no matter where he was and anything he said would go no matter what as Nancy listened behind the door.

Ethan desperately wanting Nancy's attention after she came home from Chemo. She turned and said, "I can't do this now" as Hope gave him one of the coldest looks I've ever seen. (BTW, he was such a good child actor, it really is a pity he never did anything else.)

Melissa entering Elliott's office as he is sobbing and quietly leaving without his knowledge. (Not sure with this sketchy brain, but wasn't one example of Nancy not being a saint when she went off the deep end about pizza cartons(maybe?), and Melissa comforted Elliot with the acknowledgement that she was being something of a bitch?)

Micheal and Elliott want Gary to meet Charles Barkeley, and Gary saying, "I'm nothing to that guy."

Miles (being Miles) telling Elliott why he hadn't been fired.

Clueless Hope running into Ellyn and Jeffrey at the book store.

Susannah (yes, she was a bitch) waiting in the cold in her car at the Steadmans' instead of inside after Gary died and Hope saying," She HATES US."

Just the general disdain Hope and Nancy had for each other's spouses.

Loved the ep where Melissa goes to California to work on a tv show (spoof of Murphy Brown?) as a change of pace.

Lots more, but this is getting long. Can't help but wonder if a part of the music licensing snafu is over the episode dealing with Hope's adolescent lover as it used IN MY LIFE as I had forgotten until reading the thread.

I'm 21, and I remember watching "thirtysomething" with my mom when I hadn't even started kindergarten yet, LOL. Then, when Bravo started airing the show in the summer of 2001 (right after I graduated from high school), I got to see the show again, and I really fell in love with it. It's still my favorite show. Television has become so crappy with all the so-called "reality" shows, but "thirtysomething" is more real than anything that dipwad Mark Burnett can come up with. I loved the characters because, despite their flaws and insecurities, they all had strong wills. Although it was tough to watch Michael fall apart during his war with Miles, I thought it showed the best and worst of the character, and it was probably my favorite storyline during the entire course of the series, with the exception of Michael and Elliot's business ending. I still don't understand how Ken Olin didn't get an Emmy for the DAA storyline.

I still want to see if a "thirtysomething" reunion can happen someday. I'd love to find out how the kids turned out. Ethan and Brittany are around my age, and they had very diverse personalities as children, so it would be cool to see how they'd be written now. The same goes for Janey, but more so because Hope is her mother. I could see Hope becoming an even bigger control freak as Janey approached college age, even if she had acknowledged her perfectionism and didn't want Janey to follow that path. Leo's in high school by this point, so I wonder how his personality has evolved. Is he anything like his father?

I think the religion issue in the Steadman household would also create an interesting dynamic if a reunion were to occur, as Michael often struggled with preserving the Jewish traditions. He's close to 50 (if not there already - Ken Olin turns 50 this month) and probably worried because his children are old enough to make their own choices concerning religion, and they may not honor the Jewish traditions when they're older. In addition, they're not really considered Jewish anyway (Jewish law states the mother must be Jewish for the children to be considered as such through the bloodline). I grew up in a similar household - father raised Jewish, mother not - and I never felt any pressure to be a certain religion. However, Michael seemed more afraid that his children would not know the Jewish religion, so I want to know if his views have changed.

Delightfully surprised to see this thread resurrected. And yes, the DVDs are long LONG overdue.

I could write a thesis on this show, there's so much to say, so many great moments. They don't make 'em like this anymore. I agree with everything written above (well, except for the Gary-love perhaps; but that's cause I ain't a gal, I suppose).

I loved guffawing at the technique of the sudden "fantasy" scenes"; has any show ever done it better? (I don't watch much t.v. so the question is NOT rhetorical): Robin Leach popping up from the back seat to the music of "Lifestyles otRaF" to give Hope and Michael "Worst Parents of the Year Award"; Michael plagued by the gnomes of failure, doom, and doubt (or whatever they were supposed to be) hopping all over his desk and office; Michael and Hope as Rob and Laura Petrie in that special Xmas show where Michael fears for Hope's life and wonders for the first time what he would do without her; Melissa and the slide show of the men in her life ("This one [Russell] is gay;{click) This one [Miles] ought to be"); oh, and how could I forget: Hope's Feminist Studies professor constantly popping up making sniffy snippy critical comments at her back during the funniest episode imo of the series, "Michael's Surprise Birthday Party".

David Clennon [Miles] was a windfall for the last 2 seasons, more Mephistopheles than Lucifer, as befits a cynical disillusioned psy-ops veteram from the Vietnam holocaust. His long speech to Michael " I thought you understood what we do here" when Michael tries to argue for keeping the Gulf War-protesting actor in the beer commerical campaign is chilling and breathtaking always (the ep was the favourite of Clennon who is involved in protest politics).

Most interesting character to me? Nancy. She gets not one but TWO great storyline arcs: finding herself via "The Separation" and developing tremendous "muscles of the spirit" and FINALLY becoming an adult woman and not an overgrown pathetic teenage daughter of her weak parents, which enables her to face the second great arc, Cancer.

Yes, I remember that Hope/Nancy scene where she talks about Brittany and how moving it was, but for me the most poignant part is where she tells Ethan, who has already suffered hell from his parents' separation and who now senses something is seriously wrong, "I can't hide the truth from you; we know each other too well/ There IS something wrong with me". It was the most exquisite mother/son moment I can ever remember seeing, and even more powerful because it did not come out of the blue but as a natural result of the deep closeness they had gained during The Separation and collaborating on their book.

Runner-up interesting character(s): MichaelandGary's Friendship. As will not surprise you, I couldn't feel a loss at Gary's death; it was how it affected the survivors that brought tears to my eyes, esp. The Mourning of Michael. That ep. where Gary is literally haunting him (Susannah even states it for Michael: "He's haunting you".) and Montefiore (can't remember his first name) gets fired by Miles for insubordination and we find out that Monte has just gotten a "HIV+" test result and tells Michael, who has hunted all over for him to persuade him to come back and finds him eating soup in the diner. Monte looks at Michael with gentle wonder and affection, saying that Michael really isn't at home in the occupation he has chosen and is so good at; that there is a Don Quixote inside of Michael. "Not many people know that about you, Michael, do they? But Gary knew".

Well, that had me through the floor. In the end, Michael returns to Miles and asks him to take Monte back and Miles tells him that Monte has already seen him and explained everything and suggests the agency do a little HIV pro bono work. The episode ends with everyone gathering around the returned Monte, and Michael sitting on the stairs to contemplate it all, when Gary appears. "I know why you're here, Gary". "Yes. It's time to say good-bye, Michael." Gary disappears forever (well, almost: one quick appearance to Michael at Ellen's wedding just to reassure Michael that Melissa WILL be happy, with Lee) leaving Michael with tears streaming down his face, desperately trying not to bawl.

I tear up thinking about this. Every time.

It's easy to ridicule this show (and someday I MUST get the MAD Magazine issue with the cover "Thirty-Suffering". And did anyone here ever see that priceless SNL "commercial" for Thirtysomething Cereal?)

But it's not easy to forget it.

Definitely a good idea. Don't forget Emma either. I think Gary the Ghost told Micheal that Melissa and Lee were gonna have a great kid. Wonder if Ellyn had any kids.

I remember one jump to the future where Micheal came home and asked Leo if his mom and sister were still fighting. Hee.

I could so picture Hope and Janey's relationship being like Hope and her mother's. Hope was born of, and raised as, a controlling perfectionist. It shaped her, as much as she hated it, and it would have shaped her raising of and relationship with Janey.

I always felt a bit sorry for Susannah. Here's this independent woman who is kind of a loner. And all of a sudden, she's in a relationship. And she doesn't just get Gary, she gets the whole gang - including an ex-girlfriend - who are always in each others' business. She probably felt surrounded by jackals ready to tear her apart.

I'm with you, MsChicklet. I didn't much care for S. (or Gary for that matter) but I DID sympathize with her having to try to fit in to Gary's "family". Glad she and Hope finally connected on some level.

I adore this series, start to finish. Many drama shows have said that they're going to be about "real people" and find drama in the small things of everyday life (which is where we all indeed find it, right?)... but this is about the only one that ever actually did it, without resorting to national crises or making someone world-famous or whatever. They did a fine job, as did the actors -- recognizable human beings with all their good points and flaws, such that I can't "hate" any of them. Sure, some had their annoying sides, but so do my lifelong friends (and so do I).

Perhaps the most amazing of all the fine actors was (for me) Patricia Wettig. For the first half-season I took her at face value as a mousy nonentity and assumed that she was like that herself. And then I discovered that it was all an acting choice, and she was embarked on this incredible 4-season story arc.

As an inspired counterpoint to the "mundane everyday life" premise, fantasy or parody or something unreal popped up in every episode, always to apposite effect ("The Mike Van Dyke Show," anyone?). Some of my own favorite moments that haven't yet been mentioned are:

The "Rashomon"-style episode early in season 1, four divergent memories of an embarrassing evening out for the Steadmans and Westons.

The ongoing subplot of trying to get the renovations done on the Steadmans' rapidly decaying old house. (And for once, a house on TV with a realistic amount of clutter in every room!)

Watching the details of Ethan dealing, in just moments in one episode after another, with his parents' separation and his mom's cancer. He must have been one of the best child actors ever.

The end of "The Michael and Elliot Company," which I cheered as a piece of realism -- because a little business like that WILL fail most of the time, and yet most series would let it stay unrealistically prosperous forever.

The whole New Years Eve episode from season 4, a kind of riff on Joyce's "The Dead" what with the houseparty in the snow and the news of the death of a boyfriend from long ago -- and with all the supporting characters showing up to interact. (I think there was also a bit of a tease of the loyal audience in this one: by this time "they're going to have Gary die" rumors were floating around, and he disappeared without explanation in the middle of this one, and then turned up again just as we were starting to worry.)

So many of the wonderful continuing actors who filled out the world of the show: Terry Kinney, David Marshall Grant, Peter Frechette, Corey Parker, Erich Anderson, and of course David Clennon.

The hilarious and poignant "Michael's Surprise Birthday" episode late in the series, with Hope facing up to her perfectionism and the way she's passing it on to Janey; and with memorable guest appearances by Debra Mooney (her uncompromising college professor), Andy Lauer (the seemingly dorky intern, who turns out to save the day when he spouts fluent Japanese), and Renée Taylor (the caterer-psychic).

Melissa's trip to LA shortly before the end, when she realizes that she has the power to reinvent herself if she wishes, and she needn't always be "Michael's eccentric pitiful cousin."

Man, I'm getting nostalgic now. I think I'm still credited as coauthor of one of the episode guides for the show that floats around the internet (though last time I checked, several years ago, some copies were of a discarded early draft -- that's the downside of 'net immportality). DVDs please!!

Rinaldo:



I liked that, too. Melissa was able to step out and have others see her on her own, without knowing anything about her. It's that possibility of reinvention that is so seductive about Hollywood. But Melissa turned it into more of a re-discovery of herself outside of the gang, a place/role she may have gotten too comfortable with.

I'm so glad there's an active thread for thirtysomething. It's still my favorite show ever (and my tapes are wearing out as well - we need DVDs pronto!)

There are so many moments that stand out for me - Elliott and Nancy watching the fireworks from the convertible on Nancy's birthday, the "time going backwards" technique when Susannah gave birth to Emma, Michael's steps toward infidelity with Emily, but then turning back ("There are other people....who I love...."), Melissa's face when Gary realizes Michael - not Andy Aaronson - submitted her pictures to the gallery....

My weird favorite is "Michael Writes a Story," with the juxtaposition of his dealings with Miles while seeking work and his struggles with writing. The ending - with lightening flashing from the samari's sword - was just so perfect, and I'll never forget how he apologized to Hope, saying he could never write a sentence that would mean as much to him as she does....

And I guess I'm a real oddity - a Hope fan who genuinely liked Susannah, and has a teeny crush on Lee!

!

Notthat odd, IMHO, or maybe we're odd together. I particularly liked the moment in "I'm Nobody, Who Are You?" when Hope and Susannah started out in confrontation mode, gained some understanding about each other, and ended up in a really lovely, warm moment [complete with Susannah in a bubble bath!]

Some of my other favorite episodes were "Michael Writes a Story" [love Miles Drentell], "The Mike Van Dyke Show" [great use of sitcom conventions to tell a very different story and to reveal some important information about how Michael's mind and soul work, plus that chilling line 'Hope isn't coming home. Ever.'] "Mr. Right", the one where Russell and Peter get together, and, of course, the pivotal episode where Nancy learns that she will live, and everyone learns of Gary's random death [I don't remember episode names for those last two].

"Thirtysomething" was mocked, regularly and mercilessly, in the media, but it was actually a daring, well-constructed, well-acted and sometimes resonant show.

Even more mind-numbing: he was never nominated for an Emmy, not once in TS's 4-year run.

That's often the fate of the "protagonist" character, the central one around whom the others revolve -- to go unnoticed and unappreciated. But he did an awesome job conveying this guy who was trying to do good according to his lights, but was as deeply screwed up as any of us (the determination to keep any money or employment worries hidden from Hope, because that kind of protection of his loved ones is "a man's job"; the overreaction to slights and hypocrisies at work). Oh -- I just recalled Stanley Tucci as his supervisor in a couple of the early DAA episodes, wonderfully hateful.

TudorQueen mentioned "I'm Nobody, Who Are You?", and that's a favorite of mine too. The myriad little details of how Gary and Susannah feel like they have nothing (reduced to buying a replacement light bulb for the refrigerator), while trying to care for a new baby and all the worries about little illnesses; and then seeing how much Hope and Michael have, and weighing gratitude for their generosity against resentment of it. Hope has two humidifiers, and a babysitter, and masses of huge fluffy towels that fall out of her linen closet. And what a wonderful final showdown between her and Susannah, who starts again to talk about her own straitened circumstances (with that hint of moral superiority because of it), until Hope snaps, and snarls, "Oh, shut. up." And eventually the rapprochement, with a hot bath and glasses of wine. And a great thematic fadeout in Michael's office, where Gary, left alone for a moment, has to answer the phone, and says "Who am I? Oh, nobody..." as we fade out. (And the usual flawless casting: Mary Beth Hurt as Emily Dickinson.)

Whew. I can't stop talking once I get started about this show.

I totally agree. It's a shame he didn't do much acting after 30?. Do we know what he's doing now? Herskovitz and Zwick (and/or their casting teams) certainly have an eye for talent, particularly young talent. All their shows have been cast with such brilliantly talented young actors.

This was nicely done. It was clearly Herkovitz and Zwick (I have such a temptation to use minuscules for the initial letters of those names, I can't even tell you) doing homage to Joyce's The Dead, but imitation, as the man said, is the sincerest form of flattery, and Harris and Olin did a great job with it. ETAAgain, Rinaldo pegged this already. Note to self: Read more carefully, self.

I really loved Hope. I think she was my favourite character on the show. Reading over this thread has been a lot of fun, as thirtysomething was really the first show I could not miss. The characters seemed very real and rounded to me. I didn't really get the criticism of the show that they were too whiny. (Although I did like Paul Reiser’s one-line description later of Mad About You - "like thirtysomething, but with laughs." This was a sad, sad show, people. Possibly one of the most consistently sad shows on television. (And therein, I think, lay its true ground-breaking quality - its refusal of happy endings.) Oh, who am I kidding? I loved them all. ::sniff::

So many of you have made comments I'd like to agree with or comment on further; one thing did strike me, above, though, and that's the idea that Nancy and Hope had disdain for each other’s spouses. I never got that from Hope, actually: after all, when Michael was being dense and uncommunicative with Elliot in the one of the early episodes, it's Hope who points out "He loves you, you idiot!" (Hmm. Maybe everyone had a certain disdain for Michael? Hee.) The idea that Nancy was disdainful of Michael is sort of funny, of course, Olin and Wetting being married.

Melissa and Gary broke my heart almost as much as Hope and Michael did. I find I still use Melissa's "Happy Pagan Ritual, everybody" at holiday time.

I eventually grew to like Susannah more than I thought I would, but I liked the fact that she never quite lost her sharpness, and never entirely became comfortable among Gary's friends. That seemed real. I loved, loved, loved Georgann Johnson as Gary's take-no-crap mom. Shirley Knight as Hope's mom was equally well cast, being much like Hope in ways neither of them acknowledged.

David Clennon still creeps me the hell out, to this day. The fact that Clennon returned as the viperous Miles Drentell in Once and Again? Wonderfully scary.

Also? Elliott's line about "Who, that? Uh, that was Michael's evil twin, Brick Steadman" still makes me laugh. "Brick Steadman" is, of course, the perfect name for an evil twin, and I sometimes throw a reference to my evil twin "Brick" into conversation, just to see who's paying attention.

And I thought Hope disliked Elliot more than Nancy disliked Michael. Hope did seem against the Westons' reconciliation, didn't she? Maybe the short period of living with Elliot gave her a taste of what Nancy dealt with (plus Hope always seemed to side with women).

Nancy, on the other hand, seemed to genuinely like Michael. Even when he used the watch (in "Michael Writes A Story") and hurt her, she came to terms with it - and him (in a great scene between Mr. and Mrs. Olin!).

Of course, Elliot was "Most Improved" during the series, I think. He did go through changes, struggled with inner demons, and finally came into his own. In short, by the end of the series Elliot was finally worthy of Nancy.

Just MHO, natch.

Hope's judgemental streak (unacknowledged by herself, most of the time) was an ongoing theme. She didn't make much allowance for compromises and human imperfections. (Remember how much swallowing of her initial reactions she had to do, before she could manage to not condemn Ellyn for being involved with a married man.)

To her point of view, "he left Nancy" = "Nancy should ever ever take him back." I remember a wonderful conversation the two women had (on the Steadman porch is where I picture it), where Hope is appalled that Nancy is even tentatively considering getting back together with Elliot. And Nancy smiles and says something like, "Oh Hope, everything seems so simple to you. But I guarantee that someday Michael is going to do something that is going to shake you to the core of your being." I haven't got the wording quite right, because it wasn't condemnatory of Michael -- the idea was that maybe Hope would be the one, equally likely, and the message was that choices are complicated.

I remember the tone of the scene you mention, Rinaldo, though not many of its specifics. Hope could be very judgmental, it's true; it's equally true that she had a hard time recognizing this aspect of her nature. But it made her a very believable character. The positive side of this quality, I think, was Hope's capacity for loyalty. She honestly believed that certain things could (and should) be unshakeable; this often meant, though, that the rest of the world, including those she loved, disappointed her, failing to live up to her standards.

Hope was also very conflict-averse. I could see her as a "well-brought-up young lady," who was unwilling to discuss ugly topics in a public way. I remember one episode where she refers to "the Presbyterian sleep reaction" as a response to stress and conflict. Part of her definition of civilized behaviour (possibly passed along from her mother - not that I'm Blaming the Mother, mind you) seems to have been that part of her job is to mediate, to soothe, to get along. When natural mediators finally do get angry enough to upset the applecart - look out! (Just in case it's not plain as day, I speak from personal and ::ahem:: repeated experience.)

This display of TMI brought to you by the Sandman Foundation for the Regruntlement of Disgruntled Mediating Types, and for the Release of thirtysomething on DVD.

I agree with everything you just said, Sandman, and I too know all too well about the well-brought-up Presbyterian avoidance of conflict, that being my upbringing too. It isn't all bad, mind you (a lot of small avoidable conflicts go unignited and fade away), but as you said, when it all builds up to boiling point, look out!

They did marvelously well at showing how being screwed-up is the human norm, we just each have our own individual style: Michael with "shielding" his wife from work problems because that's what he was raised to think "the man" does; Hope with her lack of allowance for mistakes and imperfections; Melissa with building up her eccentricities into a self-fulfilling and -perpetuating routine; Gary with having to be Alternative Guy even when he really wants something different; and so on.

A favorite early episode is "therapy," where Elliot and Nancy see a therapist (Marshall Herskovitz, wonderful) and start shouting their tiny unexpressed resentments at each other, and it's just so damn real....

Oh, and I love thinking about The Parents. Michael: Steven Hill and Barbara Barrie (who then hooks up with Alan King). Hope: Shirley Knight and George Coe. Melissa: Phyllis Newman and Herb Edelman. And so on.

Rinaldo:



And the way Ellyn, as someone who grew up an only child in a loveless, stay-together-for-appearances-and-the-kid household, could fumble so badly in relationships and have a hard time opening herself to people. Elliot was a gold mine as the son of a ne'er do well father who never kept a promise and an alcoholic mother. Nancy had a classic "I do everything for my husband and kids" mom and thought her mom was the best, but struggled against that ideal and fought to keep from losing her identity, even when dealing with cancer.

Their flaws and virtues are realistic, and true to the characters.

Me, too. I loved all the "Christmas/Hannukah" struggle episodes. But that? Best. Line. Ever.

In addition to all the heart-wrenching stuff that's been mentioned, I have to add that when thirtysomething was funny, it was funny in a way no other show has quite matched:

The fight between Susannah and Hope that Mrs. Chicklet mentioned had me on the floor. Just a brilliant confrontation in every way.

I often quote a throw-away line of Ellyn's, in response to a Clinique-style saleswoman's question, "Are you familiar with our system?" Ellyn: "It's capitalism, right?"

The expressionist junior-college sequence in "I'm Nobody."

The Hope-and-Michael-decide-who'll-raise-their-daughter episode mentioned above, which featured fantasty sequences of Elliot and Nancy locked in Virginia-Woolf-like combat ("I need a scotch. A big one. Use the Flintstone glasses.") and Gary and Susannah as militant campus activists teaching Janey to throw grenades.

"Fighting the Cold" may be the greatest hour of TV ever for me. But even that is topped by the scene where Michael and Hope fight it out at the end of the Arizona episode. Do you remember?

Gotta chime in with Ellyn's response to the makeup lady when she and Melissa were passing through a department store: "Oh, we don't need our colors done. We know we're white girls; you should see us dance." (Maybe Melissa said some of that, but either way it was a funny throwaway.)

And the alternate realities of the horrible evening out with the Westons early on: As Elliot remembers it, when Nancy does her cheerleading routine she's practically going down on Michael right there, while in her own memory she's a hopeless embarrassing klutz. And toward the end we discover that Michael just kind of spaced out on most of it. No punchlines per se, but very funny insights on perceptions.

This is why I always found the "whining yuppie" critique so unfair. Funny, funny show. Even the parlaying of the "whining yuppie" critique into a focus-group complaint about one of Elliot and Michael's commercials was funny.

Favorite Miles Drentell line: "Now it's time to see what's on cable." Bwah!

Yeah, that knee-jerk description didn't track at all, did it? Let's see: a freelance photographer, a college instructor about to be denied tenure, a city employee, 2 stay-at-home moms with skills and experience that they occasionally get to use, and two guys whose self-owned company goes under -- yeah, they're all on the fast track for the high life for sure. After Michael and Elliot went to work for DAA there was slightly more validity to the yuppie description (for two out of seven), but the critics never seemed to get the level of aware self-mockery in people's complaints, the subtext always being "Yeah, of course we have it good in relation to most of the world, but at this moment I'm still bummed." When people wrote such complaints, I always wanted to investigate their own income levels and degree of contentment with life. I'm also reminded of my many college classmates who would sneer at so much drama and literature as "middle class" as if that wasn't exactly what they were themselves.