7th Heaven is a show that has strong religious overtones, yet it's not really about religion. The show is peculiar in that way.

Christianity is the undercurrent of the show. But there were episodes that had to do with Islam and Judaism. What I found really amusing was the season when Matt was getting married to a Jewish woman. There was some subtle and not-so-subtle comparison and contrast between Christianity and Judaism (at least the writers attempt at it).

That season, a Jewish rabbi was introduced to the show. I don't know if it was the intention of the writers for Rabbi Glass to be partially played for laughs, but I couldn't help but be amused by how Richard Lewis played the role. I'm not an expert on Judaism, but there seemed to have been a shtick-like quality to the character. A lot of the time, I found Rabbi Glass and the Camden's (Christians) lack of understanding of Judaism to be comic relief.

I remember Matt's sister, Ruthie, asked when Matt was going to get circumcized, since afterall he had decided to convert to Judaism. In a way, the show made Judaism seem like a religion that is well suited for comedians.

I don't know what the writers were trying to accomplish, but I thought there was a comical quality to the way, the whole Matt is marrying into Judaism storyline, was presented.

Customoflife Sunita is Hindu. She just has a Hindu hendo before her nonwedding to Ciaran.

One of the things I've noticed over the years about Everybody Loves Raymond is that religion (specifically Roman Catholic) is something that is shown being a major part of the adult Barone's lives, both for laughs and a more serious way. That maybe since they belong to an ethnic group, that makes it easier to present religion in a more prominent way than it would be possible with a more typical WASP-y family.

[/QUOTE]In a way, the show made Judaism seem like a religion that is well suited for comedians.[QUOTE]

That reminded me of an ep from Seinfeld in which Jerry believes that Tim Whatley (a dentist) converted to Judaism solely for the jokes. And when Jerry went to see a priest (Roman Catholic?) in confession, he said that it offended him as a comedian, not as a Jew.

Since both Judaism and Islam stricly forbid any depictions of God, the show is already incorrect on that score.


Because 99% of the time whenever you see a Jew on tv it's played for laughs. Either that or it's used as a Life Lesson. Now, I do find Richard Lewis funny, and much of his humor draws directly from his Jewishness. But this also plays into the stereotype that exists on American television that Jews are comedy relief. Just about the only serious episode that used Jewish characters that comes to mind is Kaddish from the X-Files. There's got to be 40-50 million non-Christians in this country, but you'd never be able to tell from television.

I didn't know that. But, I don't think it's trying to be Jewish or Islamic or Christian, in so far as following the rules of the religions. Just that the God portrayed is a monodeity(is that a word?) and there were references to the Bible and the Koran. Although, who knows they may expand, since it is a faith based show, not a religious one. IMO.

Didn't Thirtysomething portray Jewish characters? I don't know if accurately, but I don't think for laughs.

Vermicious Knid, did you ever watch with any regularity Northern Exposure? That was a hard-to-classify program that more or less, at least if you discount "M*A*S*H" as being too remote in time, gave birth to the "dramedy" notion in television which is currently represented by descendants Gilmore Girls, Everwood, and Joan of Arcadia. There have been other avatars of the little-understood program type, but those are currently alive. You could stretch a bit and put Tru Calling in there as well.

Reason for asking is that the basic structure of the program was "fish out of water." Dr. Joel Fleischmann, a doc who had borrowed the money he needed to get through an Ivy League Med School from the State of Alaska, since he couldn't pay for it himself and his parents couldn't, has to put in some time in Alaska as a local doc in repayment. He is, as one would likely surmise from his name, Jewish.

That forms a central part of the Emmy-winning show that ran for 106 episodes (and would have run longer but for the contract-walking of a principal actor, but that's not the point here) on CBS. There are not many Jews in Alaska. In New York City where Dr. Fleischmann grew up, there are proportionally and absolutely quite a few more. Joel's Jewishness is a constant, but usually low-key, presence in the show. Sometimes it would be played for laughs (he tells his receptionist one time to look in the phone book [for the county; the town is too small to have one] for "Jewish names," and she asks what those would be, so he lists some, and finds that there are exactly none except his), but more often it's just played straight. Joel Fleischmann hadn't been enormously observant before coming to Alaska, but being isolated there heightens his awareness of his heritage.

This becomes particularly clear when his uncle in the Bronx (or maybe Brooklyn; I can't remember everything) dies. And he wants to have a Kaddish. But there are not enough Jews around to do it. The episode is called, duh, "Kaddish for Uncle Manny." It ends up with his accepting the folk of his town (which is called Cicely, Alaska) as sufficiently "family" to have the ceremony. It is quite moving, if theologically incorrect. There are other instances in the series, having to do with Christmas and Christmas trees and other culture clashes, which illustrate dealing with the cultural problems of being Jewish in overwhelmingly Christian America.

So, there has been at least one show that dealt with being Jewish in America on a fairly serious level, regularly, over a fairly good run on a major network.

Statistically, I found this:

"During 2001-FEB to APR, the Graduate Center of the City University of New York conducted an American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS). It was a massive poll, questioning 50,281 American adults about their religious affiliations during 2001-FEB to APR. 2. Results included: 76.5% of American adults are Christian (52% Protestant; 24.5% Catholic).
14.1% do not follow any organized religion; they are Agnostics, Atheists, Humanists, Secularists, or have no religious affiliation.
1.3% are Jewish.
0.5% are Muslim, followers of Islam.
0.5% are Buddhist.
0.4% are Hindu.
0.3% are Unitarian Universalist.
0.1% are Neopagan (Druids, Pagans, Wiccans, etc)
There are many more small religions, each of whom are followed by fewer than 0.1% of American adults."

That would lead to 12.3 million religious practitioners in the country, more or less (assuming a population of 300,000,000), who are not Christian. If you add those who practice no religion, you get 54.6 million. You pays your money, you takes your choice. Everyone can do their own numbers on individual religions.

That's one of the things I loved about both the show and Joel's character. Yes, there were humorous elements, but when his faith was part of the plot, it was given dignity. It was a beautiful thing to see.

I completely agree. Joel was so blatently Jewish, but it was unsaid. And it blended in with his NYC fish out of water element, Ed's Inuit mysticism and Chris' acceptance of all possibilities that it really didn't make a ripple with me. But at the same time I recognized that they were showing a Jewish character without beating me over the head with it that I somehow was impressed. I guess I'm trying to say I loved the lack of anvil.

dearandgp, I didn't watch a lot of Northern Exposure, but I do remember Kaddish for Uncle Manny.

Here's something I've noticed -- even on the shows that are overtly supposed to be Christian (7th Heaven, I'm looking at you) -- whenever the Christian religion is discussed it's always in an ambiguous and vague way. Jesus is never mentioned (despite being a rather central part of the faith). Instead, characters talk about God, careful to be really nonspecific. I don't think the networks are brave enough to put the faith out there in its full extent. As a Christian, this always kind of bugged me.

That's interesting, because I tend to enjoy the spiritually-oriented shows more when they're inclusive. For example, I was never a regular viewer of "Touched By An Angel", but when I did watch it I always enjoyed it, and one of the reasons was they avoided the - IMO - pitfall of making it seem that if you weren't a Christian you were unworthy of God's attention or love.

See, that would be an incorrect depiction of Christianity also. There are very few shows/movies that have dealt with Christianity well, mostly because I think TPTB are just doing what they do well, which is try to write a show/storyline without much research. I'm thinking also of the pastor on Everwood, who annoys the heck out of me (esp. in the "pray for sight" episode -- what pastor would say "let's test God!"?)

If it's going to be a show about faith, fine, be as ambiguous as you want to be. But if you're going to be a show about Christianity, you should make some references to Christ. That's all I'm saying.

Exactly. Not everything on tv has to be all inclusive, and to have a show with Christians, but never mention Christ is unrealistic. Especially a show where the main characters are a minister and his family.

Interesting observations here, from all directions, but I'm going to go for the cheap shot.

I think that one of the main difficulties with getting a thoughtful, intelligent portrayal of any religion is that doing so presupposes intelligent, thoughtful, skilled writers; writing for intelligent, thoughtful, willing-to-take-a-risk PTB; and aiming at an intelligent, thoughtful, somewhat-higher-than-the-least-common-denominator audience. Carnivale and Joan of Arcadia seem to have figured this out, as did Northern Exposure, but for most of the other shows out there, it seems that at least one aspect, and often two or all three are missing.

Touched by an Angel hads the writers, and it may have had the audience, but TPTB didn't seem to trust that audience to think, so things that could have been handled subtly and left in shades of grey were instead drawn with broad strokes of black and white. What could have been a Durer print became a page from a coloring book.

The family in AMERICAN DREAMS is portrayed as specifically Catholic, and they do a fairly good job of addressing not just faith issues but the challenges of balancing the teaching of the faith and growing secular pressures. Granted, it's portrayed as more of a 60's thing as opposed to a religious thing, but it's still there.

Let me just throw two more shows into the discussion. The Simpsons actually gets a fair amount of positive press for its willingness to include religious characters. Ned Flanders is perhaps abnormally nice, but he's definitely the nicest character anywhere on the show. Even Homer and Marge, for all of their hijinxs, go to church, pray to some higher power, and generally acknowledge religious matters more often than their other TV colleagues. Reverend Lovejoy isn't a particularly great religious rolemodel, but the show itself does more than just tip its hat at religion.

In terms of another Jewish character that no one mentions, did anyone else watch Babylon 5? Susan Ivanova, the second in command, was Jewish. This wasn't often brought up, but I seem to remember her celebrating Hannukah as well as sitting Kaddish at some point in the series, and a religious context informed some of her moral decision-making.

Homicide: Life on the Street had a "Kaddish" episode as well, which was about Munch (Richard Beltzer)'s background. It portrayed him as more ethnically than religiously Jewish, which fit well with the character, and fed a lot of information to the audience in what I felt was a non-patronizing way-- Munch had been paired with Kellerman, the blond Irish cop, and had to explain a bunch of stuff. I think at one point he snaps, "Could you be any more Irish?" in irritation...

I agree that Northern Exposure did a nice job with Jewishness-- when they were laughs, they were more culture clash laughs than 'boy, these Jews are funny.' Joel was probably the biggest straight man on that show.

Excellent points, Rabrab. To take a completely different tack, one of the things I truly loved about Brimstone was its internally consistent theology-- you knew why people landed in Hell and you knew why they were going back there. That was a show that treated its viewers like adults-- and it lasted, what, 12 episodes. Damn, I hate Fox.

I did watch Northern Exposure, up until the last season were everything got frelled up. I sometimes feel like I'm living that, being from the NY metro area and currently in the midwest where I'm the only Jew at work. They did an interesting version of It's a Wonderful Life that was set during Yom Kippur and Joel's Rabbi played the role of the angel.

Watched B5 too and practically cheered when the rabbi showed up to try and persuade Ivanova to sit shiva for her father.

Sometimes I think if there weren't so many Jews in the entertainment business, you'd almost never see any mention on tv.

Anvil-less portrayals of non-Christians are preferable to the shows that try to teach a Life Lesson and practically go "This is a Jew/Muslim/Hindu/etc. See, they aren't so bad -insert variation of Shylock's speech-can't we all get along?"

Somebody's been watching 7th Heaven or if you hadn't you definitely shouldn't.

I believe Buffy said it best with: "Note to self: Religion scary." (Or something to that effect).

It was actually "Not to self: Religion freaky."

Are there any portrayals of Muslims on tv?

There were quite a number of Muslims on Oz. That show did a pretty good job of dealing with religious issues, also.

The first show that came to mind for me when I read this quote was Little House on the Prairie. They were a very religious family and town, very grounded in Christianity. They prayed regularly and referred to both God and Jesus. But, they never portrayed any of the characters as bigoted, closeminded or naive do-gooders.

Also, Edith on All in the Family was most definitely a church-going, religious individual but her faith was never portrayed to be humorous - even when Archie and Mike would talk about the negatives of religion. They even had one show where Edith questioned her faith because of the death of a friend (a transvestite who was beaten to death).

Since the majority of the U.S. is Christian (in one form or another) as dearandgp noted, it is not surprising that the majority of characters on television are Christian. It just maybe harder today than twenty or thirty years ago to portray a character who is religious and/or grounded in a faith and make them human. In today's world we are so busy being politically correct that TPTB may be afraid to step on any one's toes. Therefore, unless it is specific to the story-line (like Touched by an Angel) or to a joke (making religion seem like a joke), they push it into the background. Now, you have shows like Gilmore Girls that don't specify one way or the other.

Frankly, I don't see anything wrong with that. That seems more like real-life to me. It has been my experience that religion is personal and usually does stay that way. Rarely do I get into a discussion about my personal religious beliefs, especially at work. Co-workers may know I am of a particular religion and ask specific questions about that religion, but that is it. So, why should it be significantly different on television?

I've thought for some time that one of the more interesting if largely unexplored aspects of Gilmore Girls is the religious sidebar. The Girls (limiting that to the core of Rory and Lorelai) are clearly not practicing religious anything. We can pretty safely assume that Emily and Richard are Episcopalian, although the show hasn't specified and other possibilities would be consistent with the backstory. Luke would seem unlikely to have ever set foot in a religious institution, although, again, we can't be sure. And the rest of the principal/secondary characters, excluding the Kim family, are in a similar limbo.

However, the Town of Stars Hollow has an interesting institution: a religious physical facility shared between the Jewish faith and some Christian sect (I should know what it is, and again want to say Episcopal, but that may be coming from the Episcopal priest in Everwood who went blind just before his wedding after his divorce, so I have to say that I don't recall). The Rabbi and the Christian head of church, whatever he might be, join against Taylor (the busybody officious townrunner without any clearly obvious political office but who runs the Town Meeting and has lots of chutzpah and money, and who has said that the protestor can't protest on town public land [clearly unconstitutionally]) to make their joint facility available to the Zen protestor who never lets it be known what he is protesting, only that he is protesting. There are a couple of other brief scenes involving the religious facility. Overall, I'd say that's a positive portrayal of religion, and even one somewhat in keeping with historical fact (in the sense of religious facilities as sanctuaries against the secular world, and even its laws).

Strange that tv has come so far with sex and violence, but it hesitates with religion. I don't need characters on tv to include me. It's their lives I'm interested in. I wonder if the same argument about being pc would be made for characters who are Hindu or Jewish or any other religion besides Christian?



But, it doesn't have to be people having discussions. It's been ages since I've seen Seventh Heaven, but have they ever mentioned Christ? Even in church? What about family shows? Why can't they have children dealing with issues regarding their faith (even questioning it) and have parents discussing it with them? It doesn't have to be every episode. But, there are episodes of shows that specifically show people being actively Jewish (and, I'm not knocking it. If the characters are Jewish, I think it should be shown) or even when they aren't religious, showing that it's something that's part of their history. I don't think every episode has to have people preaching or anything, but if there can be the Hanukkah/Kaddish episodes with Jewish characters, why can't they show a Christmas or Easter episode where a character attends church?

One show that I think did a good job of this was Any Day Now. It didn't beat anyone over the head with the main characters' religion, but it didn't shy away from it. And, it even went so far as to have the two families be of different faiths(Catholic and Baptist) and had an episode that actually dealt with it. Which, from my experience, especially since the main characters were young girls at the time, is very realistic. I was one of the few Protestants in a Catholic school, and I remember discussing the differences in beliefs with a friend of mine. I also found it nice that they did have a Christian family that wasn't Catholic, and you didn't just have to guess what they were. It's easy to have the markers of a Catholic character without having to do anything with it (show them lighting candles in a Very Special Episode, or show someone crossing themselves. Boom! Insta-Catholic).

People have mentioned in this thread many fairly recent television shows that depict religion in a good way (Any Day Now, Joan of Arcadia, Northern Exposure, etc.) So, it sounds as if television can depict religion in a good way.

My point was that, unless absolutely necessary, today TPTB are pointedly making religion or someone's religious affiliation vague. Yes, on Gilmore Girls, they have a rabbi and a minister, and they have MamaKim who is uber-religious and requires daily trips to the church for her daughter. But, they never have mentioned MamaKim's religious affiliation (other than Christian) and the few times we meet the minister and/or see him in church, they do not mention his affiliation either (they never mentioned it on that episode you referred to, dearandgp). The best we as the audience can do is assume based on a character's station in life and location in the U.S.

TPTB act as if they believe that everybody with a specific religious affiliation would be upset if their favorite character was not of their faith and would sue/protest/etc. because of it. I don't agree with their assessment and low opinion of the public, but I don't think it is a bad thing that television vagues up religion. I like the way the Gilmore Girls and other shows portray religion - it is there but it is not in my face. And just because a show does not have an episode that deals with a faith issue, etc. just means that it is not relevant to that type of show.

I hope I'm being clear. I'm just saying that shows shouldn't be forced or required to have some character go through a faith crisis or be seen in church/temple/etc. regularly just to say "we have religion on television". Do it if it is relevant to the characters and/or plot. If it's not, that's okay too. Accuracy when depicting or even just referring to a religion would be nice, but I understand this is fantasy world and if the show is good, I can ignore the descrepancies.

And, many shows do this. For example, we know that Briscoe on Law and Order is Jewish, but the plots of the shows do not need him to go through some crisis or be seen in temple.

I gave up on this show long ago. I was happy, as was my Christian friends, so see a show about a Minister’s family do well. But the characters are thoroughly unlikable.

It’s funny, as a Christian I actually think the Buffy (and Angel) motif is closer to my life experiance as well as many others I know. The flawed-hero who wants to do good but messes up along the way. I’ve had to deal with the eye-roll when I told someone I loved the show, but I maintain that it was very smart until about Season Six. Joss definitely has some religious issues and some father issues – both seem to go hand-in-hand in my experience. But he has unknowingly potrayed religion/faith in a better light than he realized.

I really appreciate this story-line. First of all I love that Edith loved ‘B” [forgetted the characters name – it started with a “B”], even if she didn’t “approve” or understand her life choices. One of the best episodes on one of the best television shows ever.

See, Sex = Freedom and Rebellion. Religion=Tradition and repression, at least in Hollywood. Violence I guess is just suppose to be a part of life.

I know ya'll are discussing religion on tv in a fairly serious way, and I'm really appreciating the discussion. But I have to say that the best thing I've seen on tv in a while regarding a specific religion was the episode of South Park where the Mormon family moved to town. South Park's taken on organized religion a lot, sometimes successfully ("Jewbilee", for instance) and sometimes not so much, but at least they are equal opportunity mockers, and honestly this one was priceless. As someone who grew up in a community with a huge LDS population, I know enough about the core beliefs to know that South Park's representation of the founding of the religion was basically accurate, if, you know, way over the top. The whole show they pretty much rip the foundation of the LDS church to shreds by pointing out how ridiculous it can sound. And then at the end the little Mormon kid basically says "I don't care if they made it all up, I like my religion, so screw you." I know it doesn't really fit in with the more considered and mainstream things we're talking about here, but I still thought it was great.

Lane had a flyer from the Seventh Day Adventist college that her mother was sending her to. That is one specific mention I can think of. I don't know if the MamaKim's behavior is accurate or not for that religion.

JenEx, my husband was telling me about that episode not that long ago. He actually thought it was pretty funny in the end, as well, and we're Mormon. He thought the Mormon kid telling off the SP bunch was funny. Anyhoo, my issue with the South Park creators is that they bring up Mormonism often but don't really have a clear grasp of the doctorine or what it's really about. When Orgasmo came out a few years ago I heard a few times that one of the creators dated a Mormon girl and that's where he learned all of his info. They had some lines that I thought were pretty funny because they were just so wrong!

Of course I don't think I've ever seen the LDS church represented very positively or correctly on tv anyway. Even in news programs they tend to slant things or give incorrect facts. I think Mike Wallace's interview with church president Gordon B. Hinckley was one of the few exceptions. I was just watching the City Confidential (A&E) on Salt Lake City the other day. I know they were totally trying to slant it in order to create more drama, and I could tell why they were doing it, but it still bugged. The church having a hit squad was the most hilarious thing I've heard of in years.

Any Mormon characters I've seen are usually portrayed as naive, backwards, and narrowminded. Now, that may be true for some that I know of, but there are also highly successful businessmen, medical professionals, entertainers, etc. You know, we're pretty much just like most people - there are naive and narrowminded people, there are major self-righteous jerks and even evil people, but there are a lot of good normal people, too, just trying to live good lives and follow their beliefs.

Note: Mormons don't practice polygamy nor is it legal in Utah. It is true that throughout the West (Utah, Arizona, Idaho, Colorado, Wyoming, etc) there are polygamist communities but they are fundamentalists and truly viewed by the Mormon population as weird and even sick (marrying your 14 year-old niece!!!) So I get really tired of Utah/Mormon polygamy jokes. Seriously, they are so old and trite to us here and they only merit a gigantic eyeroll from me now since I'm too weary to even get upset over them anymore. It's like the only time they ever mention Utah or Mormons on tv it's for a (cheap) polygamy joke.

I haven't seen Babylon 5 but I have caught a few episodes of Deep Space Nine, where religion - and the relationship between religion/power/politics - is delved into prettty deeply. It's a good example of how science fiction can often do a better job than other genres of talking about Serious Issues.

I'm not Christian & even I found the lack of Christ on 7th Heaven to be a bit disturbing. But then it quickly devolved into utter camp & I'm glad it keeps away from anything but vagueness when it comes to religion. It is offensive enough already.



Me too. I think David E. Kelley & his variety of law shows are among the worst at this lazy stereotyping.



Pembleton on H:LoTS was deeply religious & talked quite a bit about his Jesuit education. Very interesting.



Yes. It's surprising that the portrayal on that show of the Nation of Islam was thoughtful & respectful while simultaneously portraying the Muslims as just one of many gangs in the prison - and while drawing a whole lot of parallels between the leader of the Muslims and the leader of the White Supremicist group. It's one of the few aspects of Oz (which I really liked) that wasn't completely over-the-top & gratuitious.

Another HBO show: the first season of Six Feet Under had a major plotline about David becoming a deacon in the Episcopalian church. I remember a whole lot of folks on the boards here - including myself - being a little confused by the church scenes at first. Never realized how closely Episcopalianism resembles Catholicism. Anyway, the show did a good job at both portraying the importance of faith in people's lives and also at showing the mundane, petty politics that can be found in just about any church. Very realistic.

gradtg, I think it's probably true that Mormons are considered fairly "safe" to pick on as far as portrayal in the media goes. Few people outside the religion know much about it beyond the "this message brought to you by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" commercials that were on a few years ago and were pretty widely made fun of -- the "it's bad to lie" spots and etc. And South Park has done a couple of really mean bits -- I had wondered if the one of creators were, like, picked on by a mean kid who happened to be Mormon when he were little, or something, because there's definitely a grudge there. One I remember is when a bunch of people are in hell, and are wondering why they're they because they were good Catholics or Protestants or whatever, and it turned out the only the Mormons were right. So then they go up to heaven and it's populated by a bunch of unnaturally cheerful blond people in white robes. That's often the public perception, I think -- very whitebread, straightlaced, conservative, family- and home-oriented to the point of being completely out of touch. That's why I thought is was great in the end when they had the little Mormon kid tell the others off for giving him a hard time.

It's basically an extension of what others have mentioned -- rarely are Christians portrayed as normal people who exist across a wide spectrum of good, bad, and average. Either they're narrow-minded bigots, or occasionally they are shown as learning how not to be a narrow-minded bigot by being taught an Important Lesson by someone who is gay or Jewish or whatever.

PTzop, David E. Kelley may be guilty of religious stereotyping sometimes, especially where Mormons are concerned, but he has also done some thoughtful exploration of religious themes, particularly on "Picket Fences". Roy Dotrice's portrayal of Father Barrett, a deeply human, flawed, but essentially good person and community leader, was always a standout for me, and the ongoing discussions of the nature of faith and religion among the members of the Brock family were marvelous.

I agree with you about the intriguing and balanced portrayal of Muslims on "Oz", but then again, Kareem Said was my favorite character on that show. Watching him strive to be a moral leader, seeing him do terrible things for what he saw as the right reasons, seeing him struggle with his faith, with the faithful and their own concepts of what their leader should be, the power struggles within and without his community, and his own awareness that he liked power just a little too much... and yet there was an essential humanity to him. He was a true friend to Beecher, even when it cost him, and he really did try to reach men like Jefferson Keane and Adelbesi, to reach their souls. It mattered to him. And so he mattered to us.

I think "Joan of Arcadia" does a good job with religion. It isn't just the 'God' visitations, which some of you have criticized for being too generic. It's the way they examine the [specific] Catholicism of the Girardi family. Will, raised Catholic, has pulled away, cynically, from organized religion, while his wife still believes in the Church. The children are struggling with their own spiritual beliefs. A priest and a rabbi [and no, this is not the prelude to a joke] are presented as intelligent, kind people who offer help and advice when it is requested. I look forward, btw, to learning more about Grace Polk's home life and how her 'rebellion' was shaped...

There is more and more religion on tv, apart from the religious-oriented networks, and I think there will be even more. The important thing is that they be respectful of us as a pluralistic society. JMHO

Hee! I can't stop giggling about this.

For those who might not know, Utah has an extremely high percentage of Scandinavian ancestory coupled with a lot of people marrying others from the state and staying here so there are a LOT of fair blondies here (alas, myself included). Carmen from American Idol and Neleh from Survivor: Marqueses are extremely typical looking Utahns.

Re: The Practice - I forgot about that one! I didn't see it but my co-worker was telling me about the most recent episode. I think I pulled an eye muscle.

I'm one who really likes episodes of tv shows where a character explores their faith or has conflicts about their faith, whatever it may be. For example, episodes of the X-Files where Scully had to questions her religious beliefs against what she had seen or learned at work were really well done. For me, it adds depth to the characters and is something to which I can relate.

I agree. I think God is supposed to be generic, and I don't mind that. But, the way the show deals with the Girardi's religious beliefs (or lack of, in Will's case) is very well done.

Now, JoA is a network show, and so was Homicide (both which do/did well with issues of religion) but I wonder if cable is able to do a better job? I've never seen Oz, and wouldn't know an accurate portrayal of Islam if it hit me in the face, but cable has been able to deal with other issues more realistically than the networks. Possibly because they aren't worried about being pc?

I think because they don't even try to please everyone like the traditional networks do. They know they only reach a fraction of the viewers, and they sure won't be able to please all of them.

I think traditional networks usually follow the advice of "Never talk about religion or politics." It's a shame, because those are two of the most interesting topics I can think of. They are topics that people hold closely and get very emotional about. But that's all the more reason to talk about them.

I agree that someone on the South Park staff must have a grudge against Mormonism for some reason.

David Kelley worked on "Picket Fences"? I never would have guessed. That was a good show.

He not only worked on it he created it.

I agree with bungle3358 that on cable you are not so reliant on ad revenues you can take more chances because people are not likely to cancel their subscription because of just one episode of one show, so story, whereas that is not the case with people organizing boycotts of other shows that offend them.

Talking of that, I think the West Wing always did a pretty good job with the president's Catholicism and Josh and Toby's (differing levels of) Judaism. The character's faiths aren't something that you're constantly being beaten over the head with, but they're not conveniently forgotten about, either. I think Take This Sabbath Day in particular was a fascinating examination of faith, as President Bartlet has to wrestle with the question of whether to stop an execution, weighing his personal moral and religious beliefs against his duty to the office. I think the whole question was handled exceptionally well, and the ending to that episode really stuck with me. As did the scene between Toby and his rabbi.

I also loved this exchange in season four where Josh gets frustrated with Toby for pulling a "more Jewish than thou" attitude on him. I'd love them to revisit that thread, although with Sorkin no longer writing the show I'm not holding my breath for it.

I'm ashamed to admit that I forgot about "West Wing". Yes, they do a wonderful job of dealing with religion, especially the President's occasional bouts of wrestling within himself over his religious beliefs vs. the needs of his job - something people in less exalted positions do all the time - and the differentiation between Josh's secular Judaism and Toby's more observant approach, which is handled very believably and realistically.

I've always like how "The Simpsons' portrayed religion. In the episode where Homer forsakes church, a Christian (Flanders), a Jew(Krusty) and a Hindu(Apu) save him from his burning house.Lisa also explored being a Bhuddist in one episode with Richard Gere as a guest star. Flanders is super duper extra religious but he's so diddly happy.I'd like to see more of Hinduim and I can see a Muslim character being introduced.

I wasn't a faithful viewer "Touched by Angel" but the episodes I did watch were entertaining.

The "South Park" episode about the orgins of the LDS religion and modern practices was good because at the end the little boy said he loved his family and his religion and if they didn't, they could go suck his balls. After that, Cartman said he was cool. Two young female cast members on reality shows,"The Real World New Orleans" and "Starting Over" refered to themselves as Molly Mormons and said they were under pressure to be perfect daughters.On "Starting Over", PJ is 19 and exploring other religions. Although she's a restless teen, I have a feeling she'll go back to the LDS faith.

Ew, Julie from Real World: New Orleans. If we're going to make her the model for Mormons on TV, we might as well throw Carmen Rasmusen in there, too.

SFU's done a lot with David and his religous beliefs throughout the series. Some good stories about who David thinks he is, his struggles to be what he thinks God wants him to be, and IIRC, he met Keith through church as well.

And also a good amount of religous discussion with the families of the dead in various episodes.

Episcopalian and Lutheran practices are both very similar to Catholic practices. With very few exceptions, I've found that churches on the East Coast tend to handle worship in a more traditional way, while the style of worship becomes more televangelist-with-a-microphone closer to the West Coast. I suspect that I haven't seen many Lutherans because traditional Lutheran worship practices are so close to the late medieval style that it's too complicated for Hollywood to even try.

That said, Woody Harrelson's character on Cheers was Lutheran and ran up against an obstacle that only Lutherans would understand. He wanted to marry a lovely Lutheran lady, but one of them was Missouri Synod and the other was not. (One was a fundamentalist and the other was not.) I heard about this second-hand, so I don't know how well the writers handled it, but it's certainly a situation deserving of plenty of jokes. If I couldn't laugh at my church, I'd cringe.

Ally Walker's character Sam on Profiler was Baptist. The show handled it matter-of-factly, rather than browbeating its viewers. When someone offered her a drink, she'd simply say, "I don't drink. I'm Baptist."

I would think it would be easier, especially if they contain a lot of ritual. I think that's why it's easy to portray Judaism and Catholicism -note, I didn't say easier to portray them well. You have certain things that you can pinpoint, without having to go deep into it. Lighting candles in Mass. A man wearing a yarmukle. But, maybe Hollywood is worried about getting a detail wrong?



First, is there a rule against Baptists drinking? Sad to admit that my grandmother was Baptist, and I don't know the answer to that. Second, that's a great example. Simple, not heavyhanded.

Yep, Baptists think drinking is sinful or at least most of the Baptists I know say that is something the church teaches; however, some Baptists friends I have have never heard such a thing but we have decided that they are just bad Baptists but there is probably another reason.

In that case, a good, subtle Lutheran reference would put them in church, everybody singing, and one newbie flipping through the books muttering, "Page fifty-six, fifty— Where are the pages?"

Another fun idea would be a pastor or obviously Protestant gathering with lots of beer. I don't like beer and I often get teased for being a bad Lutheran.

Some Baptists believe you shouldn't drink alcohol; others think it's just fine. Each Baptist church more or less defines its own doctrine, though most choose to affiliate themselves with a "convention" of like-minded churches, such as the Southern Baptist Convention.

In a strictly Biblical sense, drunkeness is considered a sin (see, for example, Ephesians 5:18) but there are countless references to people -- Jesus included -- drinking wine.

On the DVD commentaries, the Simpsons writers say they always tried to make Flanders a real person instead of just an unlikable goody goody type, which has led to him being a favorite among Christian viewers. I knew there was a reason I liked those guys.

Stepping back to the Mormons for a bit, I think that they first became targets of opportunity for television "jokes" when the Osmonds came on the scene. They were presented as so squeaky-clean and wholesome and sweet just at a time that TV and music were seriously beginning to diversify and realize that 'edgy' and 'sharp' were not necessarily bad things.

Although at the time 'doing your own thing' was quite the way to go, somehow, they never felt like they were doing their own thing as much as they were about five years too late.

While their faith really had nothing to do with that, it was a convienent hook to hang jibes and jabs on, and then it's very easy to apply those jibes to all Mormons.

Could you clarify here? The times I've been to Lutheran services (generally weddings--I suppose that may make a difference?) they've seemed very spare and elegant; not what I would equate with Late Medieval, at all. For that, I'd look at the Eastern or Russian Orthodox, very lush and involved.

For some reason, even though I'm Roman Catholic, I tend to assume that an unspecified Christian on TV is Lutheran. Maybe because of my personal experience--I know Lutherans from all over the spectrum.

Dani, this is terribly funny. I do hope that you meant it as a joke.

Also , I've been trying to figure out just what the stereotypes of various faiths and religions are. The good presentations tend to avoid these stereotypes, or to use them as a starting point for charcter or plot exploration.
Here's what I've got so far:

• Jews/Judaism: either comic, leading to wacky hijinks; or humorless and culturally hidebound. They're also either extremely observant, or they're not observant at all.
• Catholics: practicing Catholics are conflicted; all non-conflicted Catholics are lapsed. Comic Catholics are, by default, Irish. Catholics don't know what to do about sex.
• Baptists: Uptight, intolerant, meddling, Mrs. Grundys who don't have any fun and don't want anyone else to. Is there even such a thing as a comic Baptist?
• Fundamentalists (of any religion): loud, obnoxious, hypocritical prosletyzers. They almost invariably are shown up and "get what they deserve".
• Islam: Muslims are fanatical about everything, and usually are terrorists, to boot. If they aren't terrorists, they're desperate refugees from a repressive regime. (Oz is the major exception to this.)
• "Eastern religions"; Could be Buddism, Hinduism, Shintoism, Zen, Sikhism, whatever. If it's not Judeo-Christian and it's not Islam and it's not Pagan, it's "Eastern". And it's a "religion", even if it's not. (Native American faith systems fall into this category.) Its practitioners are wise, serene, and calm pacifists, who want nothing more than to be left alone, until they must involve themselves in the world to right a wrong or teach an innocent. And they talk in koans or stories. A lot.
• Pagans/Neo-pagans: Almost always comic, tree-hugging and/or macrobiotic and/or vegan, loons who think that they can work magik. If not, they're involved in a dark (Satanic) cult, and are socio- and or psychopaths. Dark Pagans usually appear on cop shows--they always did it.

Additions? Comments? Corrections?