From Mr. Bell's Herald article:
Yeah, I have to agree with RhondaGC on this one. I see more scathing indictments of American television in the American press every day.

Eeek! Yes you do get a gold star, NYCynthia! *PING!* I totally missed that one.

Heh. Perhaps the "coiffured (sic) ceilings" were a snide reference to The Hair?

PeacefulWoman:
I went way up thread, read your prior post and wanted to print it out because there was so much there that was so thought-provoking. I thought I had already reached all my conclusions, but your impact was eloquent and searing.

I think you should be expanding your words into a magazine article and, in fact, beyond into other avenues of expression. You should be part of the national debate of which The Apprentice is just a small part.

Roeper:


What makes the people in the examples above more compelling than the people already cast? Going to jail and getting divorced does not make for compelling anything.

One thing I like about the show now is we don't have to deal with the "baggage" and the focus is on how to get the job. Yes, some people this season are there to be a famewhore, but for the most part, I like knowing the bare minimum about their personal lives.

Not everyone on the show has a degree, success, etc..
So should there be a certain number of people who are divorced, on parole, etc. to make the show compelling?

Just because you take a longer road to get your life together doesn't mean you are more worthy of anything.

Would I like to see a divorced mom trying to re-enter the workplace after 15 years out of the game on the show?

Hell No! I want to see people who are there because of their proven business sense, not because they look like a good charity case.

Yeah, on refection I think you have a point there oldbabe. One only wonders what he would write upon seeing the crew from Season 2.

On the other things, though, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. But that's one of the great things about TWOP!

Just as focusing your entire life on your career doesn't mean you are the only one capable of filling an executive position.

Running a household is not all that different from running a company. And many stay-at-home parents had very high-powered careers before choosing to concentrate on their families -- some probably have resumes more impressive than those of the Apprenti. If Trump could give an opportunity to someone who is looking to reenter the work force, why not? If they aren't capable, they'll be weeded out.

Me too! And someday The Apprentice might cast some.

Because Trump, like most top men concerned with the bottom line, probably would view persons reentering the workforce after, say 12 years gone, as having several strikes against them, whether or not any of these perceived strikes are valid. He may think they're not up on the latest industry news/standards/expectations. He might be concerned their attention could be divided should a work & family crisis hit simultaneously ( & setting aside the PC chat many bosses like to spout about how they insist that their staff make family a priority, they want their teams 100% committed when a crisis hits.) Finally -- & I bring this up because DT once alluded to this -- the person reentering the workforce may be, in the eyes of the Trump organization, too old.

Not pretty, not PC. But honest.

I won't jump into the debate about whether any one "group" is more worthy to be on the show because being a "successful" person can be reached by so many avenues and IMHO "success" is measured in so many individual ways.

What I believe about the "college degree" criteria for upper level positions is what one of my college professors told me. And, I must say that I have seen the results of this in my business life.

"Using 'a college degree' in any subject as a minimum requirement for some positions is valid to ensure that at least the person has perservered to learn many skills they will need for the job. Following thru to attain a goal, meeting deadlines, working with a team to achieve results, writing skills, time management, meeting and working with people from other cultures (usually), and other positive qualities can be gained from the completion of a four-year program of study...even if that degree is in 'Underwater Basketweaving'!"

Now, I know the degreed Apexiennes have totally blown this concept (except for JennM), but I do believe that it does have a valid basis if you have an upper level management position and need a starting point for elimination of candidates. I know there are some really brilliant and deserving ppl out there with less formal education but there are many, many companies that use this as a basic requirement.

I actually have a point to make about this...if someone has been out of the professional workforce for, say, 12 years, there's a decent chance that they've missed a good portion of the personal computer revolution. That's a sea change in business, there's no denying that.
Sure, that person may have wonderful skills, but they're certainly not going to be ready and up to speed with the necessary tools of today's workplace. Especially in the executive suite.
Unless they want to be like my old boss, who made his exec asst print out his emails and fax them to him on the road.

No, it's not PC, but I agree with lonelyteardrop that it's honest at least.

Well, mswestern, you have a point, but IMHO, not a good one. This is supposed to be a 15 week job interview. I have been in business for 30+ years and have never seen a company even consider a resume (for a management position) unless the applicant had mucho experience "coming up through the ranks" or a sheepskin. It is not fair, it is just reality.

Donald Trump will be on Late Night with David Letterman tomorrow (Thursday) night.

One of Fast Company's bloggers is up in arms about the upcoming Fox show, My Big Fat Obnoxious Boss. He mentions TA in his commentary.

Hee! I'm the exec asst to the owner of a consulting company, who has a Ph.D. from Yale, and that's exactly what I do for him!! He lives in NYC and I live in another part of the country. He's an extremely intelligent and creative person, but when it comes to computers, he had to be dragged into the modern world. Until a few years ago, he wouldn't even use his computer -- I prepared documents from his handwritten notes, including his publications (oy!). He has made progress, though, since he now uses Word. Maybe in another 5 years he'll be up to speed on e-mail!

However, TA is an unusual way of finding an apprentice. For me, it would be more interesting to see a few more candidates who have promise, even though they don't fit the mold of what most companies are seeking. In such a different corporate setting, why not go beyond the usually accepted ideas?

Damn, I said I wouldn't comment any further on this! I hope I'm not coming down with Jennifer C. flapping gum disease.

I think we'd all be amazed at how many older, male Bosses are in this same boat. But, I agree with NYCynthia that they don't really want to HIRE someone who is as computer-phobic/computer-illiterate as they are.

Sometimes the sheepskin can be a problem for older folks, of course -- Papa Tiger went to IBM programming school in 1967, has taught college-level computing classes and has a resume so deep I don't even understand what most of it means, and yet he doesn't have a degree himself -- the degree didn't exist when he started in computers. And yet even with all his experience, sometimes he runs up against contract requirements insisting on a degree, no "experience in lieu of." So it can cut both ways, harm as well as help.

I don't have any problem with casting folks reentering the workforce if they've kept up on things in the meantime. I know stay-at-home moms who can run rings around me with computers, while within the last year I knew a woman in a law office who actually hit enter at the end of every line because she didn't realize word-wrapping exists. Oy.

I just wish they'd cast some people who actually have some honest-to-goodness skills instead of all the pretty famewhores. Im more than willing to sacrifice looks for competence.

I think it depends on context. My boss has people working for him who are just as clueless with computers as he is, but they have unique skills that he values more than computer literacy. So those people have assistants who do that kind of work for them.



ITA Mama Tiger. Mr. Babe doesn't have a degree, but was trained in the Air Force during the '60s in advanced electronics/computers. His resume has substantial breadth and depth of experience in technology, sales, and management, but he can still get dinged for lack of degree.

There was a CEO of a major Wall Street stock broker, during the '90s, who only had a 2-year associates degree from a Florida junior college. He had worked his way up the organization, outstanding in sales, very business-savvy, personable with employees and clients. His track record of success earned him the top spot, while the descendant of one of the founders of the firm had a "for appearances only" title. I don't know if he's retired.

Sounds like Mr. Babe and Papa Tiger may have worked together -- he went in the Air Force in about 1970 (after getting that lovely draft notice) and, after a year or two as a medic, found a flight surgeon who medically disqualified him for any career except data processing. Hee.

I transcribe a lot of depositions of senior executives for large national firms who are being looked at by the SEC, and I'm constantly surprised at how many of them don't have a college degree. These days they probably couldn't get their foot in the door, but they're managing billions of dollars of assets. So experience can be a great substitute.

Look at Troy. I don't think Trump fired him because of anything he did wrong -- I think Trump fired him so he'd go back to school and get that sheepskin that he really needs today as an entree into the upper levels of management where he almost definitely belongs. The education that Trump is paying for. I'd give you good odds that Troy will be working for Trump after he graduates.

This is what I mean. I do understand that there are several strikes against the typical heading-back-into-the-workforce candidate, but honestly? I know several stay-at-home parents who, despite the gap in their resume, have better credentials than, say, Andy.

edited because Mama Tiger beat me to the mention of Troy!

Oy.

This thread really isn't supposed to be a catch-all thread for discussion of all things Apprentice. It's kind of swallowing the entire forum right now, and I think that needs to come down a little.

When you're discussing a media article here, your post should really be about the media article itself, not rehashing of a show topic that's entirely covered elsewhere, discussed here only because it was mentioned in a media article. Aside from comments on the quality of the writing of the piece and things of that sort, this thread should be made up primarily of links. In other words, this is the thread to discuss the articles themselves, including perhaps the arguments made by the writer, but your post should always go back to a specific article, and it should always be clear what article you're talking about. As I said, it's turning into an undifferentiated discussion blob, and it's kind of smothering the section.

And in other news, it isn't necessarily necessary to post every single mention of the show or anyone on it that you find anywhere. Post links because you think they're interesting or worthwhile (or interestingly stupid or whatever). If people want an absolute catalog of every mention of the show that goes by, they can get themselves a Google news alert or something.

ETA: Oops, just read Miss Alli's post.

Arizona Republic review of Episode 4. It doesn't have Condie's byline or any byline. It reads like Condie, however. Some good snark.

'Apprentice' men outlasting women. Cincinnati Enquirer. The usual Enquirer commentaries from business folk in re: Episode 4. Meh-ish.

The inside scoop: 'Apprentice' ice cream . . . get it while it's cold. Richmond Times-Dispatch. Folks in Maria's neck of the woods can get Ciao Bella goodies. Yay! Now if only I could get the mentioned pistachio gelato down here... *grumble grumble grump grump*

Reality TV gets a big dose of...guess what. USA Today. Discusses the decline in ratings for TA2 and other shows.

Hey Goobaletta, what ever happened to Black Enterprise.com? Did they stop running the Apprentice review? I thought that one was a good read. I might not always agreed with the guy, but he'd make some good points at times too even I don't agreed with him. If he canceled his column, it's too bad.

No, Edmonds is still doing his commentary, something for which I am grateful. Like you I don't always agree with him, but I enjoy his writing. I posted the link on Monday afternoon but it got lost along the way. CLICK HERE and you'll get to it and some other Monday links.


A few more items for your Thursday morning--

Remember the NY Post's who should play TD in the drama series poll? Here are the results.

One of the better interviews I've seen with Bill. Lexington Herald-Leader. Bill's going to be in Georgetown and Lexington, Kentucky on Friday for booksignings.

About Kwame's visit to Bentley College. Bentley Vanguard. Lots of background information about Kwame, some new to me so it may be new to you. One of the more thorough articles about him I've seen. Possible need for free registration, but worth your effort.

There is a website called TheFishbowl.com that covers the opinions and activities of a wide variety of people who've been on reality-TV shows. They have an online radio show that has done interviews with a number of people from Season 1 of this show: Katrina, Amy, Omarosa, and Nick is scheduled to do one on Friday (it happens every Friday at 1PM PST).

I tried to get the MP3 files to play on my home computer, but it's not working too well thus far. So if anyone is listening to those interviews and can tell me if there's anything of interest being said by the TA1 group, please let me know.

Driving in to work today, a billboard caught my eye. Something about getting mortgages approved and to call 1-XXX-CALL-TROY and a big picture of Troy from TA1. Cool. :o) Guess he's doing marketing for Pinnacle Investments, or something like that - print was too small to read from the freeway.

Anybody else catch this typo from the Black Enterprise article? Maybe this is the source of the debauchery of which JenC spoke.

Did anyone else happen to catch The Donald on Don Imus this morning?

He gave his opinions on the war and he branded Staci J. a cuckoo again!
Why does he hate Stacie J so much?
I don't see how he's still defending those firings!

Perhaps it is easier to hate her than to admit he made a yooge mistake.

StacieJ. has been really vocal in interviews about how she feels Trump did her wrong by firing her. She also is in talks to work as a spokesperson for a casino that competes with Trump's. So Trump is just expressing sour grapes....or sour Magic Eightballs in this case.

I think this is true. Trump's ego would never allow him to admit that he made an error in the way he handled Stacie J's firing. Just like he can't admit to the possibility that The Amazing Race is a better show than The Apprentice.

I've never seen The Amazing Race, but I've heard that it is a wonderfully edited, exciting show, and really deserved the Emmy. Trump would come off better if he wasn't so petty and mean-spirited sometimes.

And it's not too late to start watching The Amazing Race, blocked writer -- the next Race should be starting early in November. Because it really is the best reality show, bar none. [/shameless plug]

Trump's ego towers higher than his buildings, I think.

People keep telling me that about The Amazing Race, Mama Tiger, so I might just have to start watching. I am curious to see what all the fuss is about.

As far as Trump and the media, you'd think that after all these years, he'd be a bit more savvy in his comments. He's squandering some of the goodwill he built up lastyear, IMO.

Just saw The Donald on David Letterman. He didn't say much he hasn't said elsewhere, but confirmed that Bill was a wise choice.

What was an interesting comment is that the apprentices are with him for about 7 weeks and he gets to know them pretty well in that timeframe. That boils down to about two tasks and two firings per week.

Okay Raj fans, NBCUMV has bestowed a gift upon you. Click HERE and also HERE. Hee!

'APPRENTICE' SERVES CRAZY TWIST. NY Post. Episode review.

Pam punished. Edmonton Sun

MSNBC's short recap of the episode by Gael.

Apex Makes Itself at Home in the 'Apprentice' Boardroom. Zap2it. Recap.

Small margin of error sends young apprentice packing. WCNC Free registration.

When good reality shows go bad - Will viewers stick around if deserving players don’t? MSNBC. Gael's commentary. POLL.

'The QVC Sell - Take Two' - Winning Team of NBC's 'The Apprentice' Returns to QVC For a Second Chance to Sell on the Network. PRNewswire via Yahoo!Finance. Press release about the October 11th reappearance of Mosaic on QVC.
BARING THE REAL TRUMP. NY Post. If only there was a photo... Well, maybe not.

Reality TV ruined my life - Fired in real life, ‘The Apprentice’s’ Jenn C. isn’t alone. MSNBC

Bill's speaking at the Women's Expo at the Indiana State Fairgounds on Saturday morning. IndyStar.com.

Watching Pamela on the Today show ...

She is so professional, and much more relaxed and personable than we saw on the show.

She said that she called Smeagol after seeing the way she spoke to her on the show. "I felt really bad about that. She's such a doll." (!!)

She also said, in a completely professional, understanding and thoughtful way, that she's managed groups of women, men and mixed, and has never dealt with issues such as those with the Apex women. She said, with what I thought was a great combination of understanding and regret, that she thought the problem was that the women's skill sets were weak to start with, and they were insecure -- leading to the behavior they've shown to date. She said she picked that up immediately, and that's why she ran to the men's team.

I liked her very much. She came across as intelligent, thoughtful, and completely, utterly professional.

Boy, did Trump blow it.

When she said this, I was like "Wait! Who in the what now? Stacy is a DOLL?"
Maybe it is Pixar, after all.

Hmmm, might be fear over any kind of Jenn C. type negative fallout. But if so, maybe she doesn't realize how many people don't like the troll and welcomed her smackdown of her.

Yeah... a Chucky doll.

Nevermind. Boilergal beat me to my punchline.

Bwah!!

I only shudder what happens when you pull on Stacy's string. A long-winded rant about her lawyering skills? A defensive diatribe? Some suggestions:

"Not one of us!"

"I'd LOVE to respond to that!"

"I've never been so scared in my life!"

They weren't going to hire Pam, but why, Donald, why? Stop the insanity!

Stacy is "a doll"? Uh, OK.

Pamela did come off well, though, I have to say. She even looked much better. Her hair was nice and she looked like she'd actually slept recently.

She did, however, say "skill set," so maybe it's just as well that she is gone.

She gave a good analysis of the "pricing" situation on last night's show, I thought. I'd certainly hire her.

Am watching the Today interview now. Something Pamela said about the spongey thing that hasn't been mentioned and that I didn't get from the show last night. They were selling a box of 30 sponges, not just a single sponge. The price makes a lot more sense to me now in light of that.

[shallow]Did you notice the shoes she wore? Bows at the ankles and high heels. And her skirt was pretty short too and the top was a peekaboo keyhole neckline. Methinks she spent too much time with fashionista Maria in the loser hotel.[/shallow]

Here are highlights from today's Entertainment Weekly recap for those of you sans subscription:




(Whitney Pastorek spends a paragraph rhapsodizing on Raj in his boxers before ending:)

Awesome! I would *so* tune in for that!

I heard Pamela's "doll" comment wrt Smeagol on the Imus in the Morning show. (I don't listen...I was scanning for tunes. I swear!)

She actually expanded on that by adding that Smeagol was "great to party with" and "a doll," but "hell to work with."

When asked why she went on "The Apprentice," she joked "temporary insanity."

In a more serious vein, she added that she wanted to prove that most businesswomen could be competent, intelligent, and not over-emotional. She added that it wasn't the case among the coven. (Heh!)

She still runs her own business (investment firm Crimson Holdings) and is back to work doing that.

Truthfully, not sure I'd want to work for Pamazon, but if I was hiring someone, I'd definitely want her. She sounded smart, organized, sane (v.v.important), and most of all her reasoning on the pricing wasn't completely insane either, so I think she's definitely got it. At least judging on the post-fire interviews.

Still, she and Stacie J do strike me as classy ladies. Maybe weird in their own unique ways, but definitely class all the way.

TV Barn's review of Episode 5.

Pamela's on The View this morning.

I saw Pamela on the View. She came across very well, and a lot softer and prettier than on the show. I think she just has an earthy snarky sense of humor. She also praised Carolyn as being "very nice" and was in general very classy. I'm glad Pamela doesn't have to work for The Hair. She deserves better.