Just thought I should let any of the fans among you know that the American DVD rights for Sailor Moon will end by the later part of this year, so the present DVDs will likely go out of circulation.

Anyways, another guilty pleasure and a gateway anime drug. My favorites included Jupiter and Venus.

Yeah, the first season box (possibly even the second, I can't remember) stopped being made in April, so they're going to get harder to get. I still can't decide to buy them or not.

I used to watch on Cartoon Network.

I've only seen the U.S. Version. I heard one of the season one villains (Zoicite, I think) is a gay man in the Japan version, so they changed him to a her for the U.S.

Is that true?

True indeed. Zoicite is a man in the original, and in love with Malachite. One of the season four (SuperS) villains was also changed -- Fisheye is a cross-dressing man in the original, but made a girl in the dub. And of course, the infamous change of making Sailor Uranus and Neptune into cousins in order to get around the lesbain overtones of the original. The US version of Sailor Moon got some good butchering.

I didn't know there was a cross-dressing man, or lesbian undertones.

This is what I get for losing intrest when it was on CN.

Don't forget about the Sailor Starlights, and their gender-bending ways. I still wish we could get a legit release of Sailor Stars.

I didn't mention them since that season never ended up on TV. Ditto with the wishing for a release of it, though. I think the problem is that Sailor Moon has declined in popularity in the States, so no figured it was worth it to bring SailorStars over. Though I imagine a TV dub of it would've just been bad -- they could have done what they did in Italy, which was to explain the gender-bending by claiming that when the Starlights transformed they were replaced by their twin sisters.

There's been some speculation about FUNimation buying the rights to Sailor Moon. They've got some big announcement coming up, so some fans think that the timing of the announcement and the recent yanking of the US rights are connected. I highly doubt it's true (I personally think that FUNi will be announcing that they have licensed Prince of Tennis, Fullmetal Alchemist or One Piece), but it's an interesting thought, to say the least.

*pets her pretty VKLL fansubs*

Actually I'd read that SailorStars would never get released here in the U.S. because the creators/copyright owners felt it was too dark of a series because of all the characters dying at the end, and that it wouldn't be well-received here and might mean the end of the SM popularity. So I doubt it'll be licensed over here any time soon unless some company makes an outrageously high offer, which probably won't happen due to the already-decreased SM popularity.

As I understand it, seasons 1 and 2's licenses were over in April, and Geneon's licences on the movies expire at the end of the year and seasons 3 and 4 sometime in 2005. Geneon is re-releasing Season 3 in June and Season 4 in August in boxsets with thinpacks. Season 3/S is my favorite, because I love Neptune and Uranus when they first come in. I've been afraid on Season 4/SuperS because of the supposedly high Chibi-usa factor.

Funimation? That would be interesting, but Toei seems to be holding onto this show for some reason.

Wow! This is weird, I just discovered this thread today. Sailormoon that was just so long time ago. First anime ever for me. Ah, memories.

I have a website that explain in detail all the changes that were placed in Sailormoon S and Sailormoon SuperS. Let me try to find it.

That's interesting, never knew that.

As for the dark factor with the deaths of the senshi, but the fact is that the they are revive at the end, doesn't that take away the dark factor?

ETA: Anyone read SM fanfics?

Wow!! Is this a new thread?! There was a lot of changes to the American version of Sailormoon. Not only did they make uranus and neptune cousins, the starlight bending genders, etc.

There is..
-Rei's father not being a perv.
-All the panty shot sceens were cut out along with all the nudity.
-Attack names and power were changed.
-They called her "serena" throughout the whole series, not usagi.
-"Originally, to make Sailor Moon more "safe" or "moral", I guess, a "Sailor Says" was tacked on at the end of every episode saying some silly, cliche lesson of the day, like "Eat healthy" or "Don't do crazy diets" or "Be nice to everyone". This was NOT in the original anime at all."

also you can read more about this here.

SafetyGirl wow its a small world! you do serve in hush and sm.

NySoul, Sailor Moon does seem to be the "gateway drug" of many an anime fan... I remember catching it on TV when it was on, and wondering if I was seeing the same episode over and over. It's what really got me hooked on anime last year - I got the movies on VHS, subtitled, $5 at a con, and really enjoyed them. R is fun for the HoYay!

And yes, sakurafied, I serve many places, depending on whim.

Well, I'm not much into anime anymore. I seemed to have every anime that are out right now in Japan, but I never really watch them.

SafetyGirl, you only got the movies on subtitled, but have you seem all the subtitled of all the season? My favorite season has to be Sailormoon S (Outer Senshi) - the Japanese version. I never saw the dub version and never want to.

What are the spoiler rules in here - I know the general spoiler rules, but each thread might have different rules. It seemed like everything after Sailor Super S is considered spoilers right, it just that the Live Action series haven't air here, but it not considered spoilers in here.

S was my favorite season, too. Everything was great - the music, the villains, the Outer Senshi. Sailor Saturn is my favorite senshi. She has a kickass theme and a kickass weapon.

I don't watch the live-action series, but I've read summaries and seen pictures. I can't believe they made Luna into a senshi. Cheesetastic. I guess they needed a Chibi Usa substitute. I also really like what they've been doing with Minako. As a favorite of the Inner Senshi, I'm glad they're treating her character more seriously.

My favorite senshi are Neptune and Uranus. I love Haruka's flashback episode. Imo, that was the best episode of the season. Of course, Megumi Ogata voice for Haruka was simply amazing too.

Thinking of Haruka and Michiru and all the gay & lesbian undertone in other anime series makes me question why this is case? All Japanese more accepting when it comes to GLBT community than United States or other places?

I don't know if I can ever watch live-action series though, it just seemed so cheesy. I don't know if I can stomach it.

There was an article on yaoi and yuri in Animerica a few months ago. The Japanese have a different outlook on same-sex relationships. There's a consensus that early crushes or first loves between members of the same sex aren't anything to freak out about. Kids do tend to spend more time around members of their own gender, so it's natural. Also, such relationships are something that the Japanese think kids will grow out of. "Being out" is totally different, though. It's not exactly accepted, but there's less prejudice, which has more to do with a different worldview than with tolerance.

You know if with the "consensus that early crushes or first love between members of the same sex aren't anything to freak about," the first love on television shows aim at Japanese audiences including children and young teenagers aren't exactly first love - they are of gay and lesbian couples. I mean Haruka and Michiru aren't early crushes that will grow out of, but they are portray as couple who are destined to be forever in love and is meant to be together.

Given that - I probably should research more one this. I'm so out of touch with anime these day and Japanese culture in general. However, it still does surprise to some degree that a lot of anime has GLBT undertone, heck there is even Gravitation, shows that are clearly viewed by children. Yet, in the United States, when will there ever be a gay character in one of the Disney Channel shows or any other shows target toward children and young adult. Most shows are toward older teenagers and older audiences such as: Will & Grace, Friends, Queer Eyes for the Straight Guy. There are two that fully explore the lives of homosexuals including Queer as Folks and the L Word.

Why is this the case? Why it is acceptable for Haruka and Michiru to be lesbians in Japan, but cousins in the U.S.? What cause this differences where one culture has GLBT on shows that are clearly watched by kids while United States it is toward a older demographic?

I forgot to go into all of that in my earlier post; damn headache.

Our culture is passive-aggressive towards sex, while we revel in violence. In Japan, it's the opposite. Sex is just something people do, while violence is for adults only. It's that worldview that allows for Japanese television to have same-sex relationships in children's shows. There is literature about samurai forming incredibly close bonds with other samurai. Same-sex relationships in literature are nothing new to the Japanese.

Also, one of the core concepts in anime and manga is identity and acting out. The characters are somehow different from their peers, whether they're a magical girl, surrounded by hot alien babes or gay. Anime and manga allows the writers to discuss issues that can't be spoken about comfortably. Death, love, who am I, who do I love and why do I love, what's important to me.

Obviously some of it has to do with cashing in on sexual fantasies. But because manga and anime allows for so much expression of ideas, the Japanese GLBT community simply has their own manga, just as children do, just as women do, just as action-lovers do.

I'll look up more from the article if anyone wants. Right now, some ramen would be nice. Yum.

As usual, it all boils down to religion. We all know that the United States is a heavily Judeo-Christian society, which almost treats sex as a neccessary evil (and here I resist interjecting my own views on the... nevermind) and villifies homosexuality. In Japan, the top 2 religions are Shintoism and Buddhism, with Christianity coming in a distant third.

Shinto has a sex-positive ideology and many chaste Buddhist monks didn't regard sex with other males as breaking their vow, so other boys were fair game. And from that comes modern Japan's lax views on homosexuality. I might add that Japan is rather affection-shy, so a man and a woman kissing in public will probably get their share of stares, too. (Heh, I rhymed!)

Leanan, thank you very much for the thoughtful answer to my question. I guess, when it comes down to it, there is a certain sense of acceptability then. I mean, psychologically it says a lot when there are GLBT are such acceptable on everyday television shows. For children to see GLBT on T.V., imo, help the commmunity in it's acceptability, because children do take in they see and having those characters on television, to me, says GLBT are humans with basic human rights. They exist everyday.

That makes snese then. While in our culture, children has been desensitize to violence that nothing surprise them anymore. I mean how would parents and maybe even the FCC react if suddenly the next television has GLBT characters on T.V. interacting with straight members. Sorry if this is off topic, but it is interesting to me. However, I do think Japanese even with GLBT visiblility, they don't deal with the issues that GLBT faces.

Oh yes, I'm going to go make some ramen noodle now.

Also there was more cursing in the Japanese version, if I'm not mistaken.

I used to be huge Sailor Moon fan back in the day. I watched most of the shows dubbed but I managed to get to see the third season (one that introduces Neptune, Uranus and has the heart crystal plot) in Japanese with subtitles.

My favorite character at the time was the much-maligned Sailor Saturn (who, oddly enough did not get an English name. Who knows what the dubbing people smoke) I was impresed by the crazy death-centric super powers and uber tragic background, but then I was a really goth wannabe kid at the time.

Uzumaki, does religion has make that big of a difference though. I mean if religion is the key, then why wouldn't other countries with a similar religious background, or one where the main religion is Buddhism be more acceptable toward the GLBT community then?

For example, in India there is little to no visiblility for GLBT on television or the Bollywood industry. One of the few movies was Fire and that was banned btw when it came out and it is still it. The movie was treated as immoral. Even religion played such a big role, wouldn't Asian raise Buddhist or Shinto in United States be more acceptable toward GLBT? But it is not, Asians in the U.S. has this "hush hush" mentality about it. I don't know any other country that as open toward this issue than Japan. It seemed to me more of a culture issue then.

The main religion in India is Hinduism, which doesn't say much directly on the subject. I would imagine it's frowned upon, because it doesn't lead to children.

Buddhist and Shinto practitioners in the U.S. are still in the U.S. No matter what you believe, if it isn't a popular view, people tend to stay quiet about it.

India is heavily Hindu and Islamic. I'm really not sure what the Hindu attitude towards homosexuality is. There's actually a facinating politico-religious movement going on where people of lower castes are mass-converting to Buddhism because of the rigidity and prejudice of the technically-outlawed-but-still-going-strong caste system that prevents them from getting better lives and jobs. But that isn't quite what we're talking about.

It's Christianity that has largely demonized sex. Judiasm forbids homosexuality but doesn't have Original Sin and among the 936 commandments (or 639, I never remember which) men are enjoined to make sure their wives get regular sex. And Reform Judaism a few years ago officially accepted same-sex couples. Also, fun fact, the parts of the Bible that talk about homosexuality refer to men 'laying with men as women' so technically lesbianism isn't forbidden.

There was also a long and storied history of Samurais enjoying young boys, which would be seen as child prostitution today.

OH, but she did: Hoetarrooo, as opposed to Hotaru.

I mean Haruka and Michiru aren't early crushes that will grow out of, but they are portray as couple who are destined to be forever in love and is meant to be together.

Really, Chibi-usa and Hotaru are a better representation of the childs first love style homosexuality. While Chibi-usa falls for a guy (in Pegasus shape) in SuperS and another in it's movie, although I can't remember which at the moment, in Super and the beginning of Stars the closest thing they have to a love interest is each other.

Haruka and Michiru, on the other hand, were never portrayed as a having childish love. Right from the beginning they always seemed serious, for all that Haruka was a flirt with the other girls, and throughout the series their relationship kept maturing. They might be young, but their relationship is no child's first love.

Seiya in Stars is the same. Most people tend to overlook her when pointing out the gay characters in the series, or just mention the Starlights as a group are transvestites. However, for all that they took male form to make their search for their princess easier (and in the manga they didn't even do that), they're still girls in their minds (just like if you wore a gorilla suit as a disguise you wouldn't identify yourself as a gorilla), and over the course of the season she first became attracted to, and then fell in love with, Usagi. And I rooted for her the whole way, since I liked that pairing a hell of a lot better then I ever liked Usagi with Mamoru. This time it does seem to be a childish crush at first, on their first date Seiya acts like your stereotypical little kid that picks on the girl they like just to get attention, but over time it clearly grows beyond that into real love.

I just kind of took that to mean they were lesbian cousins. It was far more entertaining that way.

I always thought that it was funny that when they tried to do away with Uranus and Neptune's relationship by making them cousins they just ended up portraying incest.
My favorite was Pluto followed closely by Mars and Wicked Lady. I've only seen the Americanized Anime version so I'm not entirely sure what all has been altered. I wish that Wickd Lady and Pluto had been around longer because they were really cool.
Did they alter the way that Zoicite was drawn because I totaly thought that he/she was a woman and I'm usually pretty good at spotting the same-sex couples.

TimeMonkey, this site was in the process of going through the dub, and listing all of the changes. If you ever went to DBZ Uncensored when it was still around, then it's modeled in the same way. I'm not sure how far along they are now, as I haven't been to the site in months. But I'm pretty sure they got finished with S and Super S.

NySoul, no problem. I had fun with the discussion. This is the most I've talked about Sailor Moon or anything related to it in a long time. I kind of miss it, now.

Dei, my ealier post stated that Michiru and Haruka are of serious, lesbian couple, therefore I'm sure we are in agreement. But, one thing I'm confused about is what do you mean by first love homosexual style between Hotaru and Chibi-usa because I don't remembered any indication of them falling in love with each other?

Yes, India is mostly Hindu, however I don't know the percentage of Indians who are Islamic since the total percent of the Islamic population is not in the top ten. However, From major religions by size, Hindu are only about fifty percent of the Indian population. Now in Japan, were the major of the population are Shintoism, of how many of the that population are actually practicing members of that religion. Lots of people would state that they are Christians, but a very small percentage actually goes to church. My one question if it religions are the key reason why homesexuality is more acceptable in Japan (Isn't really more acceptable over there though) then why countries such as Thailand, Cambodia, Myanmar, Bhutan, Sri Lanka, and Vietnam with more than fifty five percents of Buddhists are so not acceptable of homosexuality. Sure the people who are not of Christian here are in the United States, but why are they still acceptable toward one would think the Asian community would be more acceptable. However, they are not, in many cases, they are very unacceptable in toward homosexuality.

Yes, a Judeo-Christian, however I have to disagree with treating sex as a necessary evil. To say that is a necessary evil, I don't think this is the view shared by many Americans today. Nor, do I think this is the view shared by many Americans when this country was found. Actually, casual sex is very much acceptable today. Of course, the U.S. has went through it sexual revolution phrase. I would have to say sex is much more open and discussed today than ever, but I never thought that sex was treated as a necessary evil.

Now, I just wondering is religion that a major factor on homosexuality shows on television or cultural? What other factors? I know sometimes it almost impossible to separate religion and culture. I do agree with religion having an impact, I just wondering is religion the number one factor?

I'm sorry I wasn't very clear, I don't mean that they're actually falling in real love with each other, I meant to give a demonstration of the difference between the aforementioned approved of childish crushes between young people of the same gender, and the real, mature, love between Michiru and Haruka.

Often in the series Hotaru and Chibi-usa act in a way that suggests they have small crushes on each other. For example, there's a scene in volume 16 of the manga where the two of them are holding hands and Usagi comments on it, and in reply Hotaru asks if she doesn't hold hands with Mamoru (and then Usagi knocks them apart). Or the way Hotaru's affection for Chibi-usa allows her to shake off the Messiah of Silence's hold on her from time to time. And, lord, if it were only a few years ago I'd be able to back this up much better, but I haven't watched my fansubs or flipped through my manga in a long long time, and am just left with the knowledge that I used to have evidence (I was a HotaruxChibi-usa shipper, and I wouldn't have been if there wasn't any evidence at all) but it's slipped my mind since I've fallen out of the fandom. Anyway, it doesn't mean that they're going to grow up to be lesbians (Chibi-usa couldn't be more then bi at most, since she's clearly been attracted to boys in the past), it's just that they have a deep affection for each other beyond what we've seen them show for other friends in the past. Another good (and stronger) example of this type of this type of (in this case unrequited) affection is Tomoyo's affection for Sakura in Card Captor Sakura.

This is a big difference from Haruka and Michiru. They aren't two especially close children developing crushes because of that closeness without even realising it, they're adults who know full well what they're doing and show time and again that they really are in love with each other.

During the first Dub run of their episodes I always thought that the re-writers had given up on hiding the lesbianism and that they were cousins originally too. And yes, it is much more fun that way.

I've been extremely slowly moving through the fan subs that I borrowed from my good friend (who I'm surprised hasn't killed me yet for the length of time I've had these things), someone mentioned that Haruka flirted with the girls a bit in S, but Michiru also does her fair share of flirting with the Starlights (in boy form) in Sailor Stars. For some reason I find the flirting really fun, mainly because they are in love at the same time that they're coming on to other people.

Damn!! You guys are all good at writing what you think about this show in its deeper meaning. I always liked them cuz I thought they had cool hair and kicked ass.

This discussion prompted me to pull out my copy of The Chrysanthemum and the Sword by Ruth Benedict, still considered to be the classic study of Japanese culture. My degree is in anthropology, btw so I actually have this stuff just lying around. Things may have changed somewhat as this was written in the 40's and there has been considerably more Post-war Western influence.


Sex and marraige/family are traditionally two seperate spheres in Japanese society.

Vermicious Knid, thank you for that little information from The Chrysanthemum and the Sword. It helps me put a perspective on things.

You think that? I thought that they were two very lonely girls who had never had close freinds their age and that made them feel really close and care about each other very deeply. I never really interpreted it as a kind of proto-homosexuality.

Isn't that another difference between the Japanese and US versions? In the Japanese version, Hotaru is around the same age as Michiru and Haruka. In the US version, it seemed like she was portrayed as being younger than the inner senshi.



Heh. The InYay! and HoYay! was rampant. We should expect so much from DiC.

Aw, we must give DiC and Cloverway some credit. Imagine how the show would've turned out if Saban hadn't managed to horrify the Toei execs. I still watch their trailer when I need a good laugh. Handicapped!Mercury and her flying wheelchair gets me every time.

This fits Hotaru, and if it had happened in R it would have fit Chibi-usa as well. However, in S and beyound Chibi-usa is shown to have close friends at school who she's known since before meeting Hotaru, and she's never shown to have anywhere near as intense a relationship with them.

I believe it was a bit more evident in the manga, where you have things like Hotaru getting overly jealous when Chibi-usa makes other friends and stuff.

*laughs* This conversation is starting to make me feel the urge to dust off my fansubs and dig up my yellowing manga so I'll be able to back myself up better. And here I thought I'd completely shaken off my obsession with the show years ago.



No, through all her age bouncing she's never older then twelve. They were at the same school in S, but in different grades.

*snicker* That Saban monstrosity is so, so, so bad that it's almost brilliant. Almost. What makes it even funnier is the audience watching it at the con, and they're politely chortling in horror.



Thanks for the clarification. The fact that Hotaru's so young makes Sailor Saturn even scarier, and cooler, IMO. There just wasn't enough of Sailor Saturn. Did they ever give her a transformation sequence like all of the other senshi? I read somewhere that she didn't get stock footage of her own during the TV series, but she did have a transformation sequence in a video game. For shame, for shame.

I started watching Sailor Moon when it was dubbed on the WB before it was dubbed on Cartoon Network and Usagi got that horrible, horrible voice. I had to wake up at six in the morning but it was totally worth it just to watch it. Of course, at the time, I was very young but I think I remember it staying more true to the story plot. I don't know, maybe I don't remember correctly.

Usagi's dub voice is so annoying it can peel the paint off the walls. Ugh. I have Sailor Moon dvds from the library sitting here that I keep forgetting to watch, so I can actually see it in the original Japanese and without the sex changes. Haven't seen many of the episodes but I read through the manga last year. I've seen a few mentions that they're kicking around the idea of a new manga translation. Hopefully with the real names.

I really hope that happens, because 'Bunny'? Is the stupidest name change (Translation?) ever. Yes, Usagi's name translated to 'rabbit of the moon' but her name isn't Bunny.

I thought Usagi's second dub voice was a bit better, but it was still annoying. I never liked Ami's dub voice, either. Why was she British? Just no.

New manga translation? That would be cool. I only owe two volumes of the current manga translation. I hope the keep all the original names.

I stop watching the dub after I got my hand on the original subtitled version. I cannot stand to what dub anime of any kinda whatsoever - well a few exception here and there, but I can't think of any right now. I don't mind Cowboy Bebop dub. However, I've only seen two episodes of it.

I think one of the coolest transformation sequences on SM is Haruka during SM S. I remembered the part where she's in senshi uniform and is transforming back to Haruka while walking. Anyone remembered that scene?

Ah, the de-transformation with rose petals. That was a classy and elegant scene fit for the magnificent Haruka. I always thought it was weird how the artist drew Haruka in the manga/comic. Haruka is the most masculine out of the sailor soldiers, yet Naoko always drew her with significantly larger breasts, a smaller waist, and a bigger butt.

Everybody had huge breasts and butts in the manga, even Chibi-Usa and Hotaru. And I guess just because Haruka was macho, she was still a sexy lady. Utena looks the same way, so maybe it's just a sort of shoujo sub-style.

I thought Hilary Swank was fabulous in Boys Don't Cry, but when she showed up for the Oscars, I was shocked at how well they managed to hide her fairly wide hips. So, I dunno, I guess it could be possible that they're just good at covering it up.

Bumpity-bump.

I still love this show. Sure, it's repetitive, silly, and melodramatic- but it's so much fun! I'm actually currently writing a mockumentary-type story about a bunch of oddball middle school girls that bond over their secret love of Sailor Moon.

This was my second-ever guilty pleasure show growing up (first was Power Rangers). I got addicted during summer break between sixth and seventh grade, and then ended up taping episodes since school got out at the exact same time as the show started. I still remember how great it was when I first got to see the rest of the R season- which, IMO, was much better than when they premiered the S and SuperS seasons.

Also? Michiru was a tease. And I love her for that.

I'll have to read that story someday..if it's on fanfiction.net..I still like this show..

I was a little confused with that character. I have the sub DVDs. Fisheye's voice sounded like a woman to me, but I knew there were parts of episodes that suggested Fisheye was a man. I guess they just picked a girly voice for him.