See I like Fred a lot. And I know that shes not well liked around here so Im gonna do my best to defend her.

Shes babbly. Yeah she is, but compared to the third season Fred it has gotten a lot less pointless and annoying IMO.

Shes smart. And it seems like she knows too much about way too many things, but it doesnt bother me because at least it was established since she first showed up that she was the science person. I like the fact that the writers havent given her any special powers or super strenght.

Shes an extremily kind sweet person,and she tries to help people in which ever way she can. She has her knowledge and her brain to contribute.And she seems really grateful to finally belong somewhere and have a purpose and friends.

Shes no Cordelia or Lilah, well that was the point since she was first introduced. Its not like she has taken their place, at least I dont think she has.
Is she too perfect? Well when you compare her to other characters like say Lana Lang ( who I loathe) or Joey Potter she comes off as a much more likeable and normal person. Shes flawed.She has a violent side that shows up ocassionaly and she is shy and very nervous,to the point where she gets herself and others into trouble often.

I think Amy Acker is a good actress, and shes pretty so its perfectly possibe that a couple of guys would have a crush on Fred.

Now Id like an explanation of what exactly do people mean when they refer to her as child woman. Eve I get. Fred I dont. Does it have to do with her body or voice? Or is it because shes sometimes giggly and has an innocent playful personality?
A lot of people do and I find that endearing,she enjoys herself. What is so wrong with that?It doesnt mean shes not a grown up.When it comes to dealing with serious problems,helping the gang out, managing the science division,and taking responsability for her own actions Fred is no inmature little girl. Shes a young intelligent woman who has gone through a lot and tries to overcome her fears and painful past everyday without whining about it every two seconds coughlanacough

sorry , double post.

Parker Sixteen I don't think it's having a sweet character is what people mean when they refer to Fred as a childwoman, well it's not what I mean anyway. It's a particular type of behaviour - engrained or put on - that is not authentic in an adult. You don't necessarily notice it in gestures alone, but as a package of overall babyishness (not femininity note). Like at the end of Spin the Bottle and they are taking Lorne's potion, Fred screws up her face and drops her whole tongue out in the manner of a toddler. Now that's not important on it's own of course, but it reflects a pattern of mannerisms that AA has woven into her performance of Fred, that give Fred the impression of being childwomanlike. It might bring out the protective side in the men around her, or maybe Fred just does it to seem unthreatening, but it effectively disables her as a highly likeable character - because you don't really see her. In contrast to another initially sweet character - Willow - whose vulnerabilities and insecurities, which made her shy sometimes, you could see were for real (and she was a schoolgirl at the time - Fred is a top physicist hitting 30). Not that I particularly want Fred to change, she's the character she is, and I think she's fine, but that's all. (Oh, and I don't want to lose another woman from the show, so I hope she's around for a lot longer - just alongside other different women too.)

In that scene you described ,Fred had reverted to her 16 yeor old persona, it could have been intentional. But I do get what youre saying. However I dont think her mannerisms are a way of hiding who she is. I think her fragile innocent attitude was natural, considering she spent 5 years without any human contact. And in the past two seasons I think she has toned it down a lot. I feel she has grown and matured. Its like she is slowly re adapting to society.

If they would let Amy Acker drop that silly voice for Fred, she probably wouldn't be on my die list... as it is now, the gagged look was perfect for her tonight.

Am I the only one who misses Fred's very thick Texas accent from season 2 early season 3?

*prepares to be alone*

You just boggled my mind, The 2nd Evil. She was at her absolute worst with that accent!! JMO of course, but damn. Are you being facetious?

I really hope Fred dies horribly tomorrow. Does that make me a bad person?

Edited because I said "tonight" instead of "tomorrow." Still not used to AtS being on Wednesday.

You are not alone The 2nd Evil. I thought Fred's accent was cute (My partner is a Texan, so that may be why I am partial to it).

Well.

RIP, Fred. I always was a fan, and the wincing induced by the pancake kisses was overshadowed by entire story arcs that annoyed me about other characters. She was a lot of fun and a real hero when the chips were down. Glad that she died in Wes' arms but it's a shame they never had the chance to make love.

Her parents will be devastated. It's sad this had to happen to the only non-evil set of parents in the Jossverse.

I just cannot BELIVE they killed Fred! Ok, I was never a huge fan of her, but she grew on me over the years and plus, bonus points, she made Wes happy at last. :-(

I do wonder if she will stay dead, though. I am completely spoiler free so this is simply conjecture. I noticed in the promos for next week, they commented that the demon who has moved into Fred's old body can manipulate time. Maybe they can trick it into going back in time so they can save Fred? *sigh* Well, a girl can hope.

Well, R.I.P. Fred (apparently) and I'm still trying to figure out why I dislike her and why I feel guilty about it. She did strike me as a relatively real, believable character, albeit one who was leaning in the Mary Sue direction and needed some flaws besides her mostly-invisible violent side.

I think what bugs me is that Fred reminds me of a lot of real-life geek girls who wear braids and talk in little-girl voices and jump up and down like five-year-olds when given a piece of good news. I feel they're doing this in an effort to disarm guys who would otherwise be put off by their intelligence, and it further bugs me that it works every. damn. time. (It sure did for Fred.) On the other hand, I know I could be being unfair. There are some people who are just naturally fresh and spontaneous and childlike. Maybe Fred's one of them. I wouldn't want to condemn her for that.

I think I might have liked her better if, for the 2+ seasons she was with us, there had been even one recurring character besides Lilah who found Fred personally unappealing. I think that from the very beginning we were pushed too hard to see her as endearing-- in part because she was so meek and self-deprecating and didn't see herself that way. Even in early S3, where she's crazyish, there's Gunn making remarks about feeling flattered to take a walk with a "cute young woman." Sure, she was in a bad place and maybe the MoG felt her self-esteem needed buoying up, but it just went on, and on, and on...

On the other hand, in those same early eps I got the distinct impression that Cordy was annoyed with Fred and sick of babysitting her at Angel's request. Whatever happened to that?

Millamant ITA! I've never been a fan of Fred, either. It's like we were pushed to love her. Why? She filled the "brain" quota, much like Willow did on Buffy, but she was never as endearing to me as Willow. And yet almost every available male on the show was all about the Fred. Again, why?

Honestly, I think the only time I have ever found Fred appealing was as she died. She had some good moments, but it certainly didn't make me want her back. Maybe I will like Illyria. But for now, good riddance to Fred.

Poor poor Fred. RIP indeed...Although considering she's already got some sort of ancient baddy inhabiting her body, I guess resting in peace will have to wait a little while.

I for one hope that they find a way to save her and bring her back before the end, I guess just because I'm a big ol' softy. That, and I don't like the idea of watching an ensemble show where that ensemble is made up of five dudes. Might as well go watch Queer Eye.

Heh, I noticed that, too. I couldn't place it at first, or I might've repressed it because I can't stand CA (despite her scarily dead-on SNL impression of Samantha from Sex and the City).

You know, I hope that the whole IllyriaFred arc is handled better than the DarkWillow arc. It's already ahead in my book, since IllyriaFred looks both about a dozen times cooler and a dozen times hotter. Also, from her appearance and the promo, she's more Dark Phoenix than Willow ever was.

I said in the episode thread that I have doubts that Fred is actually dead, even with this being the end of the show, because she's the only female left in the main cast. Nevertheless, IllyriaFred looks like it could be pretty interesting.

Nifty image of Illyria

Illyria looks way cooler, I agree. Right now it's a race as to who's closer to Dark Phoenix, but Dark Willow is in the lead just a teensy bit.

eta: Actually, if you combined Illyria with Dark Willow you'd come up with Dark Phoenix. So, perhaps W&H Fred was just a clone and Real Fred is lying in a capsule at the bottom of the ocean, eh?

I agree that it's a cool image, but honestly, where did that patchwork S&M get-up come from? Satan's quilting bee? She's like Dark Holly Hobby.

(Still looking forward to next week's episode, though.)

Im sad that my favorite character died in the most horrible painful way possible. All the deaths of female characters in the Buffyverse were either very quick ( Anya, Tara, Jenny, Lilah even Joyce) or less painful (Cordy). Freds organs were completely burned and destroyed. Thats awful.

Ooh, good point. I haven't noticed that. I think Joyce felt pain, even if the doctors said she didn't. Because they usually say that. Jenny felt pain too, she was frightened to death and was scared at every corner. And then *crack* she's dead.

Fred's death didn't move me at all though. It was over done, maybe like Parkersixteen stated that usually Jossverse deaths are quick

I'm willing to bet that DeadFred will be tearing open that sarcofogus (sp?) to get at her old threads.

Just dropping by this thread to pay my respects to the late Fred Burkle.

I know there has been a lot of discussion about how Cordy would have been much better for this storyline, but I was vastly underwhelmed by what we saw of Evil Cordy last season.

One thing that would have been cool, though, was if Cordy was still around for this. The emphasis wouldn't have been so "lone female in distress" then (for the people who didn't like Fred saying "my boys"), and instead I think it would have been a cool shock for the focus all of a sudden to be thrown on the Beta Female.

I loved that line out of her mouth just as I would have liked it coming out of Cordys I think theyre both entitled to it. A lot of people complained about the endless babbling and crazy talk during her illness.God knows, I wouldnt have kept my mouth shut if my guts were freaking burning. I admire Amy Ackers acting chops. She worked wonders with the melodramatic crap that she was given and believe that Charisma would have only made it worse.She was good when the writing was strong ,but when it was somewhat weak she was terrible, especially with drama.

I never liked Fred, so now I celebrate Fred's departure without guilt, since AA still has her job and gets a kick-ass new character too.

And I wonder what they would smell like after all this time. Somebody get that lady some Fabreze! Seriously though, your theory makes perfect sense to me.

My first thoughts upon seeing Evil Fred's new duds and blue hair/eyes was "My god, she's become an extra from Farscape! Who knew the "Save Farscape" movement was so popular?". But, hey, I am looking forward to seeing AA get to stretch as an actor. Should be fairly interesting.

I really liked what I saw of Fred during this episode. At times it was hard to see where she fit into things. I loved her line about how her power was her heart. I know it was melodramatic, but it struck me as...I don't know. Perfect.

I thought Fred actually was pretty brave, considering what she was going through. Finding out you're going to die, knowing how bad it is but not having anyone willing to face it, dealing with just having found someone you want to be with and not knowing why this is happening to you cannot be an easy thing to go through. She got her backbone back, at least in my eyes.

They have basically no more female characters now on this show, though. There's Nina the werewolf and Harmony-and evilFred, for however long she sticks around-but that's it. I'm sad. This episode threw me back onto the Fred/Wes ship for about ten seconds, and now she's dead. Poor Wes.

Hee! My thoughts exactly.

The fact that Ilyria doesn't make me think of creative ways to kill myself is all the proof I need that it's not AA I hate, it's just Fred. I wasn't sure, as I've never seen AA do any other character until now. Now that Fred is gone, I get the funky feeling her death was a way to work in WolfGirl as part of the cast. Like for a season 6 I guess. Which would have sucked balls. Not a season 6 mind you, just WolfGirl.

Then there's the whole time issue. The previews said Ilyria could manipulate time. Someone (forgive me I can't recall who) mentioned they might use this to bring Fred back. I don't really understand how this would work. Apparently, it's Ilyria who has this power. Why would going back in time and saving Fred benefit her? Unless the MoG find some way of harnessing this power, I just can't see that happening. And if it does... I'm cracking skulls.

just signed up here, but i've lurked long enough to earn a post here, i hope, given Fred's demise.

Loved her in late season 2, but Fred slowly grew more and more annoying to me as the years went by. Magic Bullet seemed like too little, too late, despite its greatness.

Perhaps its my natural jealousy of women as tiny as Amy Acker, and the way the show shoved in our faces how much she ate. Funny, but frustrating in a back-of-the-mind way for anyone living in the real world. This coming from a nearly 400 pound woman though, so don't forget your grain of salt.

All in all, AA is still a talented actress, and I'm glad she still has a job for the time being. Whether they kill Illyria or the season ends, everybody'll be cut loose soon. sigh.

I actually like Fred, which seems to put me in the minority, but I think it's because initially I skipped S3 when it aired (caught up with the DVDs recently). Pylea Fred and S4 Fred are both pretty cool, though S3 Fred is way boring. I think if they kept crazy Fred a little longer, moved "Fredless" back a bit and gave it a plot that wasn't painfully obvious for those who don't mind obvious plots, and generally had her do things besides eat and look 14, she would've been liked a bit more. Or if she just hid in her room until season 4, that might've worked too.

Oh, and TheNewNumberTwo, you're not the only one who was annoyed by how much she ate. The taco gag was kinda cute, and I can understand her liking food after living in a cave, but they drug it out way too far.

Also, I've seen it mentioned a couple of times that blue Fred is hot, and I just don't get it. Is it just that it's good seeing Amy Acker not looking 14 so you don't feel like a pedifile, or is it that she's blue? 'Cause for me, blue=smurf, so not sexy. Each to their own though.

I too am a Fred fan, I think she's a complete muffin, but then I didn't have the luxury of watching Angel in continuous order, I just saw the second and third seasons last month. I have to agree, the schmoop with her and Gunn in S3 was a little much, and I do understand why people don't like her. I just disagree with them.

I thought Fred's death was handled remarkably well, although I had a bit of trouble taking Wesley since they've started to dress Alexis more and more Gilesy, so I get this dirty-old-man vibe from him. That's neither here nor there. But Amy acted the hell out of that last bit, and while the writing and everything was a little melodramatic, I was still deeply moved. It's always sad when the ones you love get eaten from the inside by a scary hell-monster and then have their bodies used for fun and profit.

As for the whole blue-Illyria thing. . .for me it's the hair. I love the blue hair, though I could probably do without that weird (but still deeply cool) forehead makeup.

Did anybody else really love the opener, with Fred and her parents? I know it was just thrown in to make the whole ep Even More Depressing, but still. Aww.

I hope they keep blue forehead fred because I like the actress, and the strange lost vibe from the character was interesting. Can she become good or is she using wesley?

Someday a show will have a villianess who dresses for comfort or freedom of movement in something that does not show off her nice figure aside from the strangely skinny arms.

This ain't that show.

Fred is dead. Long live Fred. That "electrical impulses" that represent Fred's memory are, of course, totally bogus, but it might be an interesting device. However, when Illyria used her voice I expected Wes to shoot his ninth or so person of the episode.

I, too, want to pay my respects for Fred.

Not my most favoritest character of all, especially because of her love for Science!, but she had her moments. (I actually liked her in Pylea)

One thing that had occured to me watching the S3 DVDs - um, so Fred goes to California for grad school, presumably finishes (or is damned close to finishing) and then gets held in Pylea for 4 years? Which, as someone upthread mentioned, makes her close to 30...

...In the Buffyverse, S3 Cordy is what - all of 20, 21 - ? How bizarre that the actresses played and reversed the age differences on S3, though, admittedly, in S4 & 5, Fred did "grow up".

Just saying.

Ah, Fred... I loved ye. Well, okay. Maybe not /love/. But I liked you and found you quite amusing. Most of the time.

Ah, Fred... I remember fondly when you were Pylea-recovering crazy Fred. The Fred who ate under tables and had a preference to wielding golfclubs for the sake of self-defense. And I did rather enjoy you as geeky String Theory physicist Fred. The Fred who had this mad revenge streak toward those who did her and her friends wrong and had a fear of dimensional hocus-pocus portals. Any Fred incarnation thereafter, the weedy Texan Fred (seen in S4 "Spin the Bottle") and the lovestruck puppy-mopey Fred, I cringe in fear over.

Still... I'll miss ye, Fred. Most of the time.

I always liked Fred but I always disliked the thought of her and Wesley being a couple. Innyways, inspite of the stupid costume they put her in this last episode (lemme not get started on the hair do+ them blue eyes) I feel the urge to compliment Amy Acker on her performance. I thought it was neat. I had no idea she had that much potential as an actress.

I'm sure this is gonna be one hell of a silly question and you may call me slow but is she really dead? As in not coming back, dead as in Cordy like dead? Or can Angel "restore" her after all? Is her death final?

If you want spoilers, why not go read the spoiler topic?

As said before, I like the hair. Muh.

It's unfortunate that she's dead, regardless of whether or not she can be resurrected. But anyway. Just thought I'd add that I was playing with Google, and discovered that "Feigenbaum" is the name of a fractal that looks like a tree. She named her bunny after a fractal!

I don't know, I thought it was cute. . .

Not to be pedantic, but Feigenbaum is the name of a mathemetician who was instrumental in figuring out chaos theory. The fractal naming is a homage to him.

I've decided this entire season has been about chaos vs order. And I guess Fred herself has just gone over to the chaos side of the line.

Well, alright. If you're going to use actual facts, then yeah.

I like to think of the cavemen vs. astronauts as an attempted metaphor for the chaos vs. order conflict, because it makes it seem like the writers have a bit of a clue. But that also makes Fred's dying babble a little more meaningful - obviously, chaos wins. Kind of? Am I stretching too much?

The By the Numbers 2 poll got me thinking about Fred, namely her outburst in "Ground State" after Gunn dies and comes back.


I see what you mean, but I think that it's actually a pretty common feeling. It might not be logical, but lots of times people might get angry at the person who died, and also have those feelings of being abandoned by them.

More to the point, the reason I really like Fred's emotional scenes in S4 is because Fred was so often just this meek, nervous, girlish character, rambling on and tripping over her words to please people. One specific instance that I think of is at the beginning of "You're Welcome" after Angel says he quits -- "probably months, or maybe weeks," etc.

So anyway, I really liked it when she got to have those moments of unbridled, honest emotion -- stuff like "You died and left me all alone!" from "GS" and "You don't know! You don't know what it was like!" from "Supersymmetry." It really showed a more serious, dramatically interesting side of Fred, and also let Amy Acker shine as an actress, IMO.

I just liked it when she zapped Connor. Because Connor is a snot.

Yeah, because it takes a real hero to torture an abused child who's tied to a chair.

When she first zapped Connor, he was not tied up. It's the only way she could ever have taken him.

I'm talking about the second time she zapped him. He was no longer a threat to her and she tortured him anyways.

I was watching Double or nothing , and I remember how people called Fred a bitch for yelling at Wesley at the hospital. She was not yelling at all. Ok she raised her voice sometimes but she wasnt yelling at him, and she didnt come to lash out at him and take advantage of his inabbility to speak, she came to warn him about Angel. The reason she told him not to return to the hotel was to keep him safe from Angel. She was concerned about what he would do to Wes if he showed up. She was a little upset ,but she was nice to him at first, and then she got serious and left. I dont think that makes her a bitch at all.

CoolHandFluke posted this about Fred over in the Strega thread:

And this is exactly why I didn't like Fred. She was designed to be a victim. It's insulting. She survived 5 years alone in a Hell Demension. She should have kicked ass. She didn't have to have super human strength. She could have kicked ass because she was sneaky and would fight dirty. But instead the writers chose to make her helpless and stupid. I hated her in Billy. All the doors are unlocked so she decides the best place to hide is under the bed in room with the only locked door. WTF? I mean, how in the hell did she ever last 5 seconds in Pylea?

Yeah, I figured the reason I liked her was exactly the reason a lot of people didn't like her, although I guess I should clarify that it wasn't the lack of activity that I found endearing. I really liked "The Magic Bullet" because she actually did get to do something and take care of herself. However, like I said, I liked her in spite of the fact she rarely had a storyline that amounted to anything, and the reason I think that's true is because I found her personality/archetype endearing.

Or maybe I just thought Amy Acker was extremely pretty. That's equally possible. [/shallow]

But she doesn't have a personality. The writers never gave her one. What does she like? What does she hate? What does she do for fun? What are her pet peeves? guilty pleasures? In four years, all we know about Fred is that she's good at science and she eats a lot. It's really the same problem I had with Groo. He wasn't given a personality either. Instead of victim, the writers decided he would be a hero and then they went home for the day.

Fred was insane. I thought everyone got that. ;-)

Shes an extrimily nervous person who likes to help people. Shes selfless for the most part, likes science and tacos, loves her parents, she doesnt hold back during sex and designs weapons to make up for lack of strenght. I dont think a woman has to literally kick ass like Faith or Gwen to make a good role model, why does she have to be good at fighting just because she survived 5 years in Pylea, the woman just needed her brains, that was more than enough.

Considering what we saw of her in Pylea and her "strategy" for dealing with Wesley in "Billy," I assumed she survived in Pylea because she spent most of her time hiding. I think that's as valid a strategy as any. She was vastly outnumbered by people who were way stronger than she was.

I see her intelligence and ingenuity coming into play in the day-to-day business of survival (finding food, shelter, clothes, etc.) It probably also helped her hone her ability to stay off the bad-guy radar.

I don't really have a problem with Fred being the damsel in distress, because she proved herself useful many times. Some women are like that in the real world, and it would be a dull show if all the women were Buffy-esque. I liked her because she managed to contribute without any superpowers -- just her own personal resources, and the ME world has few women like that. Fred was the only regular female character in the ME universe who didn't have some kind of supernatural edge working for her.