Of course, my mom worked full-time from the time I was in first grade, and I don't think she wanted anything else more than she wanted to be a mom, either. I never felt I didn't get her time, and I'm probably as close to my mom as anyone I know my age. It can work fine either way.

Had my mother not had a job, either she or the kids would not have lived to see the 90s. She took four days off work when I was born, so the legend goes.

I think whatever anyone wants to do is cool, but my mother was certainly there, and showed her kids that women can value work and have important jobs just the exact same as men, which I think is a good thing for any kid to learn.

I'm not saying working moms can't do a great job -- I've known many who can. I've just seen too many kids shunted into daycare and barely seeing their own parents, however, to believe that sometimes it's not hard on the kids to have both parents working outside the home; and I've seen too many moms with small children chronically torn between work and home. It really depends on how well the mom can do it all. Or the dad, as the case may be. Because doing both well isn't an easy job. For me, the solution was to work at home; I tried it the other way a couple of times but felt like I wasn't doing right by my kids. Everyone has their own solution -- but the key is to figure out what's best for all concerned, not just mom or dad's career.

But I still have a lot of respect for full-time moms. It's a valuable job.

Oh, totally. I've also seen stay-at-home moms who screw their kids up in various ways, including overinvolvement in their lives. It can work, or not work, either way, and it really comes down to the individual situation. Stay-at-home moms don't deserve to be cracked on for not having any ambitions of their own, and work-outside-the-home moms don't deserve to be cracked on for not caring as much about their kids.

I really bristle, though, at the expression "full-time mom." My mom was my mom every minute of every day, whether she was with me or not. My mom didn't stop being my mom when she was at work, any more than a stay-at-home mom stops being a mom when her kids are playing at somebody else's house.

That, to me, is the meat of the matter. My Mom worked outside the house from the time I was in about fourth grade. She was still a full-time mom. And I did learn one thing that I don't know I would have learned as well (certainly I wouldn't have learned it as early;) I won't get anybody's full-time undivided attention: the world doesn't work that way. I may get a lot of their time and attention, but I won't get it all.

Jeez, sorry I upset everyone so much! I was just trying to be supportive of KarateKate's desire to be a stay-at-home mom, and apparently nothing I say isn't offending someone. I'll shut up now, I guess.

Ok, slightly off-topic of the stay-at-home versus working moms but I think this stepmom thing is going to work out ok. My fiance is out of town for a family function so I am watching my future stepson until Sunday night when I will drop him off with his *birth* mother. I was a little nervous but things couldn't have gone better. The two of us even went to the peach festival about 45 minutes away. The little guy behaved almost perfectly. *whew* I only wish the little bundle of energy would take a nap. Of course, he isn't cranky so I should let him play to his heart's desire so he'll crash early tonight. Heh!

My mom was mostly a stay-at-home mom while my brothers and I were growing up and frankly once we hit 10 or 11, I didn't appreciate her effort as I would have preferred two incomes so things weren't so stretched financially. But things worked out fine, we never wanted for any such as food/clothes and I learned the valuable lesson of delayed gratification and saving up. My mom never really knew what she wanted to do or what kind of work she wanted other than being a mom. She was a kick-ass mom...a crappy housewife but an awesome mom. In a somewhat amazing turn of events, she has now found her niche and is working about 30 hours a week while my dad just retired after 30 years as a high school teacher. My own mantra is love your kids and do the best you can, 'cause that is all that really matters.

Exactly. Wasn't the feminist movement supposed to be about allowing women to have choices and to not feel like less of a person for the choices they made? I have two friends who decided to be stay at home moms and they get a lot of crap from other friends about "is that all you do?" Whatever. Mom-hood is a tough job no matter how you approach it.


One of the aforementioned friends might be one of the moms who should get out and about a bit more. Her son is now over two years old and she still can't make any plans to go to a movie or something because "she doesn't know what kind of mood junior will be in or what he might be up to." I think she lets him rule her life a bit much and find this attitude to be a bit exasperating - but what do I know? I'm not a mom. It's hard for me to say anything to her about this. But I miss hanging out with her and doing things. Is my reaction totally selfish? Or does this level of "junior rules my schedule" seem to be a bit off? (My other stay-at-home mom friend - who's has twins, btw - doesn't seem to have this problem.)

I think that sounds overinvolved to say the least. I have a friend with four kids - all under 9 - and they do not rule their parents lives.

I mean sure they don't go off and leave the kids alone, but I think they all have great relationships and the kids don't dictate what goes on. Like, "well, I'm sorry you don't want to walk anymore, and that you're tired, but we aren't all going home because of it," kind of not allowing the kids to dictate.

Because, as Rabrab said, I think it's really important for kids to recognize their parents are more than their parents and have lives and interests and activities that don't revolve around the kids 24/7.

There's a case to be made that it's not the choices themselves as much as whether the mother feels good and is satisfied by the choices made.

Actually, that is a key of life that is showing up with this season's racers: Chip and Kim who find so much satisfaction, vs. Mirna who finds so much dissatisfaction.

Mama Tiger I don't think you upset anyone....it's such a personal choice. And I'm glad that for you, working from home worked for you and the tigerpups. For me, it's a much better world that I was working outside the home after the little Lola's came along.

Thanks, princesslola. I really wasn't trying to dis anyone's choice -- because I think that's what's so great today, we do have a choice; when I was a girl, it still was almost inconceivable that women could have a real career and a family too; that general attitude didn't start changing until I was in college, really -- but was just trying to share with karatekate what I found to be the wonderful parts of being home with my kids. It was as much for me as for them -- I got to see all those little moments with them that I would have always regretted missing were I working outside the home. But I know women who are able to do what I couldn't, continue their careers with almost no break and still have great kids, so I'm certainly not going to criticize that option, either. It's not like I didn't have my own life in the process -- but especially for the first few years for both of my kids, I tried to enjoy every moment with them because kids grow up so incredibly fast.

I'm just enough older than a lot of the folks here that I remember when thinking woman could have it all was a quite radical new idea -- and so everyone ran off to work and still have families, and a lot of my friends discovered that in trying to have it all, they were shortchanging everyone and everything, particularly themselves, and exhausting themselves in the process.

I like today's world much better, where it's okay to choose to stay home or not depending on your own abilities and desires. And where moms don't have to do all the childcare and housework when they get home from work, as happened to too many of my friends who married guys just like their dads, who of course had grown up in a totally different era. (To the day he died, I don't think my father knew how to boil water or mop the floor, and I have several girlfriends who married guys who contribute about that much to the household to this day!)

But I still love to see young women make the choice to stay home because I had so much fun being home with my kids when they were little, and I hope karatekate has the same experience I did. I've never had a moment's regret for my choice, and that's the way I think all moms -- and dads! -- should feel about whatever their choice may be. The big difference today, of course, from when I was a girl is that everyone gets to make their own choice. It's nice that the world has changed so much just in my lifetime!

MamaTiger you are welcome....heck, what works for you, works for you. It doesn't mean that it'll work for me....but that's for me to decide.

I think this is exactly why this is still such an emotionally charged issue to discuss. We know this in our HEADS but we still feel guilty whatever choice we make and feel we have to defend our mom's/friend's/sister's choices. Will we ever stop doing this to ourselves?

Of course I speak as one who would like to stay home and NOT have any kids, so what do I know?

Now that my kids are grown, staying home sounds perfect to me, too, Loraxe!

My mom went back to work when I was six weeks old, but I got a great 'Nana' out of the deal. An older couple babysat for me from the time I was 6 weeks until I was too old to be baby sat. I don't know why, but I always called them Nana and Uncle Doug, even though they were no relation. Nana passed away last year because of a stroke, and I'm still disappointed that I didn't get to see her near the end, but it just wasn't possible because for the past two years I've been going to school for 40 hours a week and working 30 hours a week.

I'm still amazed that some of my friends' mom's still made their lunch into their senior year of high school. I've been making my own lunch since the first grade!

On another note, yesterday was my brother's wedding and it went flawlessly. Yes, by the end I was sick of posing for pictures, but everything went so well that there was really nothing to complain about. My mom was making fun of me though because at the reception I changed out of my heels into a pair of red high top Chuck Taylors. While I was wearing my deep purple and white gown. Heh. I will post pictures when I get some.

The wedding I was at yesterday came off nicely as well, although I was rather worried for my husband, who was in the wedding and hadn't slept for 36 hours by the time of the ceremony (long story). I was watching him instead of the bride and groom most of the time, waiting for him to fall over and take the rest of the groomsmen down like dominoes. Fortunately, he stayed on his feet the whole time.

We also had a really nice day for it, sunny and warm, which is nice considering this August hasn't been very August-like in Michigan. It was gray and rainy and COLD Friday night, at what was supposed to be a pool party/rehearsal dinner. Kind of nasty.

Suzikins, glad you had a good time with the stepkid-to-be. Wear 'em out during the day so they'll sleep in the next morning, that's always a good policy.



It really amazes me, as loraxe observes, how we are so hard on each other for parenting choices. This is something I'm really only just noticing, as I've been reading lots of parenting boards in preparation for bringing home a toddler, and it really just floors me how militant some mothers (and I say mothers, because most of the parents on the boards are female, not because I'm making a judgment about who is more militant). I've seen mothers who bottle-feed accused of child abuse because they are "depriving" their kids of breast milk. There are people who get seriously vicious over what kind of sling is best, and if you aren't a "baby-wearer", well, clearly you are dooming your child to life as a serial killer or something -- and god forbid you had a c-section, because you will never be able to bond with your baby (I didn't ask what this means for me, the adoptive parent. Obviously my kid is just doomed).

I don't see why we can't agree that while, yes, some people do seriously screw up their kids, most parents are doing the best they can with what they've got. The important thing is to make the choices you are comfortable with, because a happy and fulfilled person is going to be a better parent, right?

Absolutely! The only times my alternately depressed and anxious (perhaps because she had way too much time to think) mother wasn't a scary mom were when she was (rarely) working. She (and we) would have been much better off if she hadn't been pressured (by my dad? by her mom?) not to work. But my foster mom was a really happy and busy stay-at-home mom. I was amazed when I was with her family that a mom would be at home, wide awake, and waiting for a group of teens with a snack to talk about your day at school before you went off to do homework. It didn't feel hokey at all to me. It felt safe. And her kids didn't seem to resist it either.

Absolutely. But there is a THIRD category of mom whom I have no qualms about cracking on: the moms who want to take credit for being a stay-at-home mom, but who aren't willing to put forth any effort into it.

These are the ones who plant their kids in front of TV and videos all day or otherwise ignore them. (No lie: my sister ran into some lady who actually sneered at working moms who put their kids in daycare, BUT-- this same lady had put her son in Mothers Day Out five days a week. Since most churches only have 1- or 2-day programs, she had to mix/match three different churches to be able to offload her kid every day.)

I'm a SAHM, and I work really hard at it. I won't say my child never watches TV or that I don't think that learning to play by herself isn't important. But I put a LOT of effort into being the best mom I can be, and SAH can be just as hard or harder than working outside the home. Absolutely it was the right choice for me and my family. However, I'm not going to get on here and tell everybody else what choice is right for their families. My family, my decision. Your family, your decision.

I had a really awesome job that I truly loved, but I don't regret it for a minute that I'm a SAHM. Drives me nutso when my SILs keep telling anyone who will listen that I'm throwing myself away and becoming an unperson because I chose to give up my career to stay home. {sigh}

My sister the pediatrician just gets tired of the moms who whine about wanting to stay home and saying they would if they could afford to. She tells them they can afford to, they choose not to because they want a particular lifestlye. It isn't the choice she disapproves of, it's the expectation that she'll put up with the "poor me" whining. These are not struggling families, those she has great sympathy for.

Hi all! This has been on my mind for several days, and after lurking for a while and reading everyone's opinions I thought this would be a good place to throw it out there...

Does anyone else HATE the new McDonald's Chicken Select commercials?

The man at the copier and the woman alone in her apartment? Blurting out stupid "step away from the chicken" blahblahblah cakes?

I haven't seen a McDonald's ad for anything in years that I haven't found obnoxious and stupid and eminently hate-worthy. The one you're speaking of doesn't arouse any deeper feelings of hatred in me, but considering how high my hate level already is....

Hate the commercials, but liked the chicken thingies. I was shocked at how much I liked them, although they really needed mashed potatoes (spell check says that's right, but it looks wrong, suddenly I sympathize with Dan Quayle).

Every time the little "ba-da-da-da-da" music from the McDonalds commercial comes on and I automatically say "I'm lovin' it" I curse McDonald's for getting it into my head. I don't want the corporation dictating my reflexes!

Right there with ya'. I have to mute the TV when those commercials come on. The guy in the office is bad enough, but that STOOOPID woman alone in her apartment? YEAUGH!

I've been spared the horror that is the Chicken Selects commercial, though I have seen some that apparently aren't as bad. Is it possible that there are different commercials in Canada and the US?

No, I've seen the one with the man at the copier. I find all McDonalds ads annoying.

I hate the MacDonald's ads, too. In fact, we were just talking at work late last week about how obnoxious they are. But then someone pointed out that, even though was despise them, we were talking about them, so at least on that level, they worked. Hmmmm......

On a completely different topic (or an old one since it's weddings), I'm driving from Eastern Pennsylvania to Michigan on Thursday for my brother's wedding on Saturday. Should be a great time. It's going to be small (about 75 people) in my sister's backyard. Both my brother and his fiance (a fabulous woman) are very casual people, so it's going to have a Hawaiian theme. (My brother wanted to get married in his bare feet. It's his second marriage. He did the big church thing with a huge reception the first time and hated it.) The invitations said to bring bathing suits so we can go swimming in my sister's pool after the ceremony. Definitely my kind of wedding. My only problem is that I have an 11-hour drive on Thursday (and then back on Monday), and I'm going by myself. I've done it before several times, and it's exhausting -- especially now that I'm "old". So send me good TARfly thoughts this weekend.

I'm going to totally brag here. It's a bit long; if you're not up for it, skip ahead. I won't mind.

Over the summer, my six-year-old son Isaac has been participating in a triathlon race series. The Kids of Steel program was created to promote fun and physical activity for young people and, if they are interested, to bring them into the sport of triathlon. It's a totally obvious idea: most kids love to run, swim, and ride their bikes. KOS just channels it. Some of the older kids get serious about it, but the younger levels are about fun and participation. Kids seven and under swim 50 metres, ride 1.5 kilometres, and run 500 metres. It's long enough to be a challenge, but not so much as to be impossible for an average kid.

Yesterday was the last race in the series. Isaac had finished middle-of-the-pack in his first two races. He's a poor swimmer, an okay runner, and a good cyclist; it all balances out. He was hoping to improve his times.

His swim went pretty well. They did this one in a lake, so there was a certain amount of running involved; good news if your best stroke is dog paddle. He was feeling good when he started the bicycle leg.

Twenty metres down the road, his chain fell off. A race volunteer helped him fix it, and he started again.

It fell off again.

And then again. The chain would not stay on. He was less than one hundred metres into a 1.5k bike ride with a non-functional bicycle.

Naturally, he hopped off and started pushing it.

Somewhere near the halfway point, one of the volunteers asked him if he wanted to stop, and offered him a ride. He said no thanks, he was going to keep going. After all, the race wasn't over yet.

Once the last child who was actually on a bicycle finished, they re-opened the road to traffic. Isaac went up on the sidewalk, and kept pushing.

By this time, JudyZ and I were beside ourselves. All we knew was that he had started the bike leg. We hadn't seen him come back, we didn't know where he was, and there were cars on the road. We were extremely relieved to see him coming up the sidewalk, pushing his bike, with a couple of volunteers following him.

As ran up to the transition area with his bike, the organizers - thinking the race was over - had already started taking things down. When I asked him if he wanted to finish the race, he said, "But there's no course any more!" I told him that if he wanted to run, he could run.

He wanted to run.

He parked his bike and took off for the last leg. Given that he had already done a kilometre-and-a-half on foot pushing his bike, he was pretty beat. His time on the run? Not so good. His position in the race? Dead last. But he did it. He ran, he completed the course, and he crossed the finish line with a huge smile on his face.

You try to bring your kids up right. You want them to learn how to work hard when they have to and to have fun whenever they can. But you don't always know how well you are doing. While we're both sorry that he didn't have a better race, we couldn't be happier - or prouder - about how he did in this one.

What a great story - your son deserves the gold medal in my book!

That's just awesome, Zron. Particularly in light of the parenting and behavior discussions we've been having -- it's good to know someone is doing it right!

Zron -- I'm having the work/volunteer "work" day equivalent of your son's triathlon experience today. This story completely made my day -- kudos to Issac!

Getting to back to, uh, pushing the bike now...

Zron, maybe it's all the hard-luck Olympic stories I've been hearing lately, but I heard inspirational music in my head throughout the reading of your son's quest just now. What a fanatastic story. And if he does ever become an Olympic athlete, be sure and share that story with every reporter who interviews you. Do you have any of it on video? I love when they show the swimmers competing at early ages.

Zron, I got sniffly reading that. Your son is awesome. :-) I hope he's as proud of himself as y'all are of him; he's got reason to be.

I hope you didn't smother him afterwards!

That is a great story. I hope the Pizza brothers come to TARCon so I can tell it to them.

I live in Barranquilla! Oh, how very cool. Where'd you go to school, screamin'?

Ah, you want to be me! I work 10 hours a week and don't have any kids. Not working is a wonderful luxury - I take Spanish classes, I learned how to cook, I plan fab parties, and keep busy. I do, however, miss having my own money and my own job. I've had a year to focus on my marriage, but our next post I'll focus on myself more by going back to work so we can buy a house.

I get unbelievable amounts of crap from my friends, though. "I can't believe you gave up your career!" Eh, I was completely burned out on my career. I don't miss it.

Speaking of fab parties, the Rat Pack night went off without a hitch. Well, except for the giant tray of gin and tonic Jello shooters I made, which inebriated the guests beyond all reason.

Z, your kid kicks all kinds of ass. Unsurprisingly.

Changing the topic for a quick second, that Kool-Aid vs. Pillsbury banner is driving me nuts! What was the Kool-Aid man's name again? I know that the doughboy is Poppin' Fresh but I can't for the life of me remember the Kool-Aid dude's name. (I'm pretty sure he did have an actual name...but I could just be old and insane.)

He did have a name... Pitcher Man, way back in the 70's, but eventually they dropped it for Kool-Aid Man

Hmmm...no, that doesn't ring a bell with me so that can't be what I'm thinking of.

Okay, I have way too much time on my hands. (And why, yes, I am at work. Why do you ask?) I did a quick Google for Kool-Aid Man, and his name is -- Kool-Aid Man. Yes, it was originally Pitcher Man, but eventually just became Kool-Aid Man. And did you know that there was a short series of Kool-Aid Man comic books in the 1980s? There's even some Kool-Aid Man fanfic. And that's probably more than I ever wanted to know about Kool-Aid Man.

Really? Damn, I guess I *am* just old and insane.

Stay at home moms get a load of crap from working mom friends. Working moms get a load of crap from stay at home mom friends. And women who choose NOT to have kids (like me) get a load of crap from both.
Them: "But don't you WANT children?"
Me: "No."
Them: "But don't you LIKE children?"
Me: "Sure. In small doses and as long as I can give them back."
Them: "But you'd make a GREAT mother!"
Me: "Eh."
Them: "But isn't your internal clock ticking?"
Me: "Nope."
Them: "But what about when you're old? You won't have anyone to take care of you!"
Me: (to myself) "Isn't that a really crappy reason to have kids?"
Me: (to them) "That's why Mr. Tome is so much younger than me. So that he can push my wheelchair." <snerk>

Being a mom is an extremely important job and I admire anyone that takes on the responsibility willingly. And my heart breaks for women that want children but can't have them for medical reasons. But I really wish that more people understood that just because a woman has ovaries, it doesn't mean she HAS to use them. I have a great career as a photographer (specialty? children) that allows me to work from home. I have great friends, two dogs, a diabetic cat and Mr.Tome. That's quite enough responsibility for me!

Wow....I really didn't mean for this to turn into a rant. My original point was going to be that every woman has to choose the best path for herself and to not let other people make you feel guilty about those choices. So...do that!

ETA Zron Great story, great kid. Bravo.

From a few pages back:

I was shocked when I went to college and, while doing laundry, one of my friends was impressed that I could separate colors from whites “on the fly”. It took me a while to figure that he was surprised I could separate whites and colors as I took them out of my laundry basket and throw them directly into the washer.

Re having kids: I'm a guy and my grandmother pesters my mother, my mother!, about when I'm going to have children. I can only imagine what it must be like for women.

Anywho, hi all! I’m not new to this forum, but not TwoP. I just started watching TAR last week and I’m hooked. I caught an earlier ep this season that just didn’t work for me, but I’m glad I gave the show a second chance. Now I wish I had tuned in earlier.

ETA: Zron, your kid rocks.

Zron, add my name to the chorus - excellent story, amazing kid!

JenEx, I'm glad your hubby didn't pass out during the wedding. Your story reminded me of my oldest brother's wedding, where a bridesmaid DID pass out mid-ceremony. Hot day, stress, hadn't eaten anything... fall down, go boom!

JenEx

People like that drive me insane. If I hadn't had a c-section with my daughter, I would have died. In fact one of the nurses said I was lucky that I hadn't had her even 5 years before because they would have let me go longer in a labor that just wasn't progressing.


Some of the best parents I know are adoptive parents. Dear friends of ours have 6 kids. You would never be able to tell that the oldest boy is hers from her first marriage, the oldest girl is his from his first marriage, the two in the middle are theirs together, the next youngest is a foster child on permanent placement, and the youngest is adopted. Their house is filled with love and laughter and six beautiful children that are brothers & sisters regardless of bloodlines.

Heh. The last wedding I was in, all of us had a particularly vicious stomach bug. Luckily, it was a Catholic ceremony, so I got to sit for most of the time instead of standing at the altar. Unfortunately, it was a Catholic ceremony and was therefore an hour and a half long. I thought I was gonna die.

Aw, that was just the sweetest thing I've read/heard in a while. My father told me he was pround of me recently, and I swear it was the first time ever, and that story just makes me all misty. Go Isaac!

I'd like to have kids one day and stay home. Hopefully, by then, my tolerance level will have increased. I realize that may not be the case, so I am actively planning my career so that I have an option to come back if I so choose. I told bf way back when that this was my desire. Actually, what I said was that I wanted the "Weds" deal and we agreed to compromise (well, he agreed and I grudgingly caved). Even though he hit me with the eloquent "no fair" since he wants to stay home too.

JenEx, do you have a guesstimate yet on when to expect your new addition?

Well ranted, as far as I'm concerned (admittedly a bystander on the whole at-home-mom, having-kids-or-not cavalcade). There's a great quote, sadly true about human nature, in one of Nora Ephron's early essays. Something like "'The women's movement is about options' -- we all say it, I can hear myself saying it now. But the unspoken thought is almost always 'But if you really got your act together, the option you would choose would be mine'."

I hear the whole "A life without children is so barren -- what will you leave the world when you're gone?" thing sometimes, and it makes me sick. It diminishes so many people's lives, and shows contempt for the many great things people contribute to the world apart from children.