I find it baffling why so many fail to comprehend the turn from friends to lovers. Yes, Angel viewed Cordelia family, but it was not unthinkable that he could view her in any other way. She was the closest to him- understood him better than anybody. It wasn’t a love of any epic scale- i.e. B/A but it was a moving relationship all the same (up until they obliterated Cordy’s character in S4 and fed the actors some very cheesy dialogue i.e. Awakening)

The whole brother/sister card is far too overplayed as an anti-A/C statement imo. Ok, so they squabbled but only like two people who know each other so well do!

I found their fierce protectiveness of one another very endearing- and subtly executed in season3. There was always this inevitably that the two would somehow be drawn. It wasn’t forced or contrived like some ppl seem to think.

There was no destiny to C/A- they were NEVER meant to be together- but they came to mean so much to each other, and I would consider it a love- a MATURE love. A love borne out of deep friendship! As for those who state that there was never chemistry b/w the two- rubbish! For a start, bar “You’re Welcome” where C and A were FINALLY THEMSELVES for once and you could actually FEEL the chemistry, the characters were never allowed to play themselves- so there was always an element of forcedness. Kisses were reduced to fantasies, allusions etc. It was never both characters coming together as real people, expressing their real feelings. That I can accept. Moreover, what defines romantic chemistry? Must the two lock lips/tongues in some exaggerated, hyperboled scene? In any case the last moments in You’re Welcome showed that if that is what people consider to be “meaningful’ chemistry or “passion” then there you have it!

Personally, I felt the C/A kiss had the same amount of chemistry all their kisses had, which is absolutely none. It's not about how much tongue you use but how the characters gel onscreen, and you either have it or you don't. IMO, DB and CC have great friend chemistry but horrible romantic chemistry. And I strongly disagree that that their relationship was mature. Angel regressed to a 12 year old boy in S3 when he developed his out of nowhere crush on Cordy. He started acting goofy and pathetic and barely stopped short of writing her a note that said "I like you, do you like me back? Circle yes or no". Once Groo showed up all he did was sulk and whine, instead of telling Cordy about his feelings which would be the mature thing to do. Not to mention Cordy's supposed realisation of her feeling in Tomorrow only happens because her future self tells her she's in love with Angel. The hell? It was forced and made no sense at all, much like like the C/A relationship IMO.

Angel and Cordy had a brother/sister relationship, and whilst it isn't impossible that deeper feelings could develop, it was a totally new place to take the audience and IMO ME needed to create a strong story that made us understand and believe in the romance. And I think they failed miserably on that account. Out of nowhere Fred and Lorne suddenly decided A/C were in love and threw around words like "moira" and "kyrumption" which made the situation even more ridiculous than it already was. And it pretty much seemed to me that A/C weren't in love, but believed they were because their friends kept telling them it was true. The curse was never mentioned, except for one joke Fred made in Tomorrow. Either ME was ignoring it because it didn't fit with their plans or it was a subtle indication that Angel knew Cordy could never give him perfect happiness.

IMO David Greenwalt wanted to have his very own supercouple (like B/A and W/O etc. were for BtVS) and because of his love for CC and Cordy he decided A/C was the way to go. However, he didn't develop a believable story, the chemistry just wasn't there, the characters of Angel and Cordy were horribly mangled to try and make them suitable for each other, and a few of the writers (Minear, for one) were vehemently opposed to the ship. As a result, it turned into a terrible mess that the writers spent most of S4 trying to undo. Hell, Joss even admitted it was a mistake (which is incredibly rare for him) in TV Guide last season.

I don't know, I'm of two minds on this. For me, I was willing to buy the C/A relationship. I liked Waiting in the Wings for some reason, and while I don't think the stuff in that episode was great...I can see how two friends would fall in love. It happens frequently. And given that they never really managed to get together anyway, what with Cordy being bodyjacked, it didn't really bother me. And I loved You're Welcome and the ending of it. Maybe I was just predisposed to like the C/A relationship for some reason.

Kyla -- Read the site FAQ. Read the show FAQ And read the announcements thread. Count the number of times posters are asked not to make generalizations about what other people (or even "ppl") think.

If you can't state your opinion without saying that any other opinion is "rubbish," or that you just don't get it, or any other version of that attitude, you're not gonna make it past "Just Tuned In." You can disagree. Respectfully. If you don't understand someone else's opinion, you can ask them to explain, instead of declaring that whatever reasons they have must be ridiculous.

I thought they could have worked. I get what you're saying Babybluez about them being friends, but I think it would have been nice if we'd seen one friendship in either show development into a romantic relationship as an organic development from the story, instead of having new partners being tossed into the mix. I don't see a brother sister relationship (maybe because Angel ate his sister?) more an intense friendship that was very close. If done properly (like in You're Welcome, which worked well I thought) I could have bought it easily and been quite pleased.

However, I thought it was mishandled terribly, mainly because, IMO, ME's aim in relationships is to write them so they can break them up with drama and the angst. That's pretty much their function; it always strikes me that character revelation and development takes place between friends much more than between partners - the people you love are there to help you emote like crazy and not much else. So the writers decided to chuck all of this extra stuff in there (Jealous!Angel, suddenly appearing interdimensional boyfriends) so they could eventually do that. Which mucked up the story for me.

I actually think Cordelia's character got the short end of the stick in this setup - Angel's dorkiness seemed to be as much from the kid as anything else - as for some obscure reason they neutered the character to make her acceptable as a partner for Angel. Without ever explaining to me why a smart girl like Cordelia would consider him as boyfriend material (Buffy I bought initially because she was 16 and he was all romantic and aloof at the start; I was less convinced by the hideous teen angst of season 3 Buffy and Angel and repelled by portrayal of their relationship that we got on season 1 of Angel). But Cordelia seemed smarter than that, plus had the added knowledge of Angelus: it just never got explained why she'd see him as a potential partner, beyond the obvious hotness factor. And there are a lot of hot guys in LA.

I thought the actors had romantic chemistry, but I do think that sort of thing is an entirely personal opinion.

babybluez, ITA with your entire post. I doff my cap to you, ma'am/sir. I just never saw the two as a match, romantically--and that was one of the things I liked about the show.. It's a pet peeve of mine that all platonic friendships between leads almost always develop into a romance on television shows. It's done so often that it lost its interest with me about four years ago. I had hoped they would avoid it on Angel, just because the two had such a wonderful, believable friendship where they supported each other and cared for each other while recognizing and accepting each others flaws. Which is what a friendship should be about, really, and this was one of the rare TV friendships that did it right. The romantic relationship bothered me because the writing was so inconsistent that it seemed like these were two different characters who just looked like Angel and Cordy on the screen. The snark was gone and in its place was fluffy melodrama and angst that seemed like it was taken from the BtVs' Season 3 dumpster. The relationship just didn't seem to fit with the show or the characters.

Thanks for the word of warning Strega. No generalisations. I won’t however, pretend that C/A was well-received by the majority here- in any case I will mention ‘people’ specifically as anti-c/aers.

As for romantic chemistry- it is a matter of opinion. I never thought C/A’s love scene in Awakening was particularly explosive (but the dialogue was sappy and considering that CC was about 5mths pregnant at the time, I must say it was nicely done) but that didn’t mean that I couldn’t buy into the romance. Moreover, having watched YW I am more than convinced, that had ME not decided to throw in unneeded angst, C/A could have worked marvelously. There was an incredible amount of passion in those last few moments together- and I say that irrespective of the circumstances (it being DB and CC’s final scenes). It goes to show that taking us away from hokey-pokey fantasies, C/A was a relationship that was very much alive in the romance department.

Joss Whedon did admit (prior to YW wasn’t it?) that the fans didn’t take to the decision to put C/A together well at all- he mentioned being followed down with torch flames, but I can’t believe having watched the way DEEP-SEATED feelings grew between the pair- and following the culmination of events in YW- that it was ever a wrong decision. I know I’m in the minority with that opinion.

RE: whether it was a mature love. I believe it was. The very foundation of the “relationship”- its bare essence - was very mature. Yes, the writers goofy-fied Angel midway through season 3, but only up until his feelings for Cordelia were triggered/realised. That to me, doesn’t impact on the nature of their ‘relationship’ at all.
Then again, considering they never really had a relationship- or a shot at one- maybe my argument is pointless!

To me their coupling came from a very illogical place, turned Angel and Cordy into pod people and the rest of the cast became shippers and cheerleaders for this union for some inexplicable reason. You know, I was watching Carpe Noctum today and at the end, when Fred has her 'talk' with Angel about his curse and why he can't have relationships, and how it was Cordelia of all people who explained all this to Fred in the first place, I wondered why all of those reasons flew out the window by the middle of the season and C/A were in the midst of their whatever. I don't understand how Cordy could have gone all, your a eunach Angel, curse blah blah blahnoperfecthappinesscakes, to ooh, ooh, I LOVE him. Or why Angel ever entertained the fact that he could be with Cordy. It makes no sense. Fred knows about the curse, Wesley, Lorne, everybody, and yet it's all about kyrumption, and NO ONE mentions that this is not a good idea? It makes no sense, and besides the gaping hole of suck and lack of chemistry Boreanaz and Carpentar had, A/C made no sense on a story level as well. That's why I don't see how it could even be construed as a mature relationship. None of the REAL issues about Angel's nature as a vampire with a tenous grasp on his soul, his past with Buffy and why that didn't work out, his curse, none of it was brought up. Without any of those fundamental aspects brought up, I could never take A/C seriously.

From the Cordy thread, babybluez:
I'm not down with the idea that the whole C/A relationship was manufactured by Jasmine. They had some nice chemistry very early in S3. And they seemed pretty real to me in S5. But at the same time, I guess it depends on when DeKnight made that commentary -- they may not have thought that Carpenter would ever be back on the show, and since they were planning on having Buffy on for the 100th episode, it makes some sense that the ME party line at that time would have been that Cordelia/Angel was just something that Jasmine did. However, that makes me sad for Angel...

I just listened to it again since I didn't remember the comment. During the scene where Angel's talking to Cordy about her vision of the Beat, DeKnight says:

"A lot of the fans, over the years, have been queasy to say the least about Cordelia and Angel being in love with each other. And of course later on in the season you find out that the whole thing has been orchestrated by a higher power, so you're left with the feeling of, you know, 'What's real and what isn't?'"

I understand how that could be interpreted, but I thought that "the whole thing" meant "the events of the season," and particularly what Cordy says in that particular scene (the "I love you, but you ate babies," stuff). I don't think it was meant to suggest that all of their feelings, on both sides, were a result of Jasmine screwing with things. More of a "it's unclear whether Cordy means all the stuff she says to Angel or if that's Jasmine."

If nothing else, "You're Welcome" later contradicts that pretty soundly, so I certainly don't think it's their official statement on the matter.

Ah, thanks for the clarification Strega. Yeah, what you're saying makes sense. And is pretty much what I had previously assumed anyway.

Sadly, I haven't heard the commentary, so I can't comment on the DeKnight's tone, but I wonder if he's being funny. As a way to shift the blame for C/A, because of the negative reaction of some fans. Joss cried 'Uncle' on Corngel, admitting it didn't go over well, and I think it was mostly his idea.

I'd heard it was Greenwalt's, because he was preoccupied with Charisma Carpenter and it was part of the straw that broke the camel's back. Eh. Rumors can be unreliable.

Yeah, I too got the impression it was all Greenie's idea. From all his interviews and ep commentaries (esp. RB on BtVS) it seems like he worships Cordy, so it wouldn't surprise me he wanted to try and make her part of a 'supercouple' with Angel. Since Joss had all his attention focused on OMWF and creating Fireflop at the time, IMO he probably said "sure, whatever" when he heard the C/A pitch, and then when he realised how drastically it was tanking he tried to sweep it under the rug with the C/C hookup, having Angel call out Buffy's name during the dream sex in Awakening and the 'Jasmine manipulated everything' retcon.

Speaking of rumours, I've heard that Minear was so opposed to C/A that he got into a huge fight with Greenie about it in S3, and Greenie basically said told him to shut the hell up of he'd get the boot. *Sigh*, If only Minear had been showrunner then.

I quoted the whole comment upthread. You can certainly interpret what he said in different ways, but he doesn't say "Jasmine manufactured everything," in a joking tone or any other way.

babybluez -- So you're saying Whedon let these writers he has no control over do a whole thing where, in Angel's fantasy, Angel and Cordy are smitten, but at the last minute he inserted the "Buffy" to "sweep it under the rug." And to further this plot, he had one of these rebellious writers make vague remarks on a DVD commentary that a small portion of the audience would hear years later.

He's devious, that guy.

Hints of a Cordy & Angel romance go back to season 3, and if the executive producer wanted to put a stop to it due to the fan reaction, god help us all, I think there was ample opportunity.

I have a notion concerning Cordy and Angel, and how it related to me well, even if the writers probably didn't intend it to be like this.

For me, Cordy and Angel were those Platonic opposite sex friends, who every once in a while think that there may be more there, only to find out there's not. Ever have one of those. I have one female friend who I date approximately once every two years, because we're stupid and feel like we can't be such good friends without more being there. Then we realize we were being stupid and things go back to normal.

For me, that's Cordy and Angel in a nutshell. They seem kind of right for each other, they're great friends, but they just don't quite work together, and if they'd given it a shot they'd have figured that out pretty quickly.

They just never got a chance to live out the cycle.

Hitcho,


I definitely see what you mean. I could see two close platonic friends experimenting with "something more" and realizing they're better off as platonic friends. My reaction to C/A might not have been so negative if they tried that and instead of the whole unbelievable "love of destiny" angle.

To me, C/A represented close friends who found themselves gradually attracted to one another. It could have been a good relationship if it weren't for Angel's curse.

On the other hand, I dislike B/A. I'm not a fan of teenaged angst-fests, in which the male falls for the female in a scene that creepily reeks of "Lolita".

My vote is that C/A weren't "in love" in the way that B/A or C/X were.

IMHO, they loved each other as friends, and they were both desperately lonely, so when the rest of the gang (& maybe Jasmine) started suggesting they might be in love, the idea appealed to them, but I doubt it would have lasted.

For me, the big clues are how desperate and confused Angel is when he asks Cordy if they were in love during Spin the Bottle, and Cordy's general sense of sadness in You're Welcome. To me, it looks like they love each other tons, but they're not in love with each other.

I so agree with this. Not just were they lonely but society doesn't really know how to deal with men and women who are just really good friends. My best friend is a married guy I work with and people try to make something about it all the time. With Angel and Cordy both unattached and lonely and all those people trying to make something of it it doesn't suprise me at all that they started sniffing around each other.

Word to that. I just recenly got engaged (see Meet Market) and already my parents are giving me crap about hanging out with my friends.

Still, I've always thought that spending that much time unattatched around a bright, funny, ballsy woman would very easily lead to an attractioin and affection. And I dig that Angel grew to love (or whatever) Cordy instead of his big "bowled over by love" reaction to Buffy. That's not real love, that's what 16-year-olds do, IMO.

But instead of calling it what is was (a friends gradually falling in love thing) they had to wrap it into this big love between champions, destinycakes thing, which inevitably leads to the B/A comparisons anyway. So it seemed more immature that they never dealt with Angel's curse, or whether Cordy and Angel actually had feelings for each other, or was it because they were both lonely and just wanted companionship. No, they had to justify it with kyrumption and destiny, which really didn't fit C/A at all. Plus, let's face it, Boreanaz and Carpenter didn't have much in the way of chemistry, so it felt (to me) that it was just TV convention. Lead girl and lead guy must hookup, because that's the rules of television land. It didn't mesh with the characters, it didn't mesh with the story, it didn't mesh with anything really. And the more it didn't seem to fit, the more they TRIED to make it fit. Lorne and Fred had to become cheerleaders for the ship for some inexplicable reason, drawing cosmic explanations out of thin air. It was all just...weird.

The writers did a great disservice to C/A by giving the characters (notably Cordelia's) personality transplants so as to create a secondary B/A ship. s4 was way too much angst- I liked the simplicty of C/A in season 3, I guess up until kyrumption/moira which was bullshit- it undermined the natural aspect of C/A. Chemistry or no chemistry (which is totally subjetive by the way as I never mistook it for B/A passion or B/S explosive sex) I loved the journey that both took together. I don't believe in any soulmate nonsense, but I do believe that in the end the characters both *got* each other. They grew on each other and therefore grew together into a relationship of closeness that's unparalleled by any other on the show. I would argue Angel wasn't this close with Buffy, not truly. I loved YW for showcasing C/A in all it's simplicty and I guess I will always be rankled with the writers for the relationship that never was. For me YW showed that in not allowing C/A to wallow in mush and sap (since the characters were never written in that way) the ship could have survived the total disparaging that it got!

Replying from the Meet Market thread:



I think that Angel saw a huge change in Cordelia from the Sunnydale days. She had shown time and again that she was trying really hard to come out of her egotistical shell and help others. I think that Angel really started to fall for Cordy in "That Vision Thing," because of her selfishness and unwillingness to give up the visions if TPTB were giving her a Job-like test to prove her worth, which she was unwilling to do. Plus, hey, suffering and martyrdom, big turn-ons for Angel :)

It probably appeared that way at the time. In retrospect, it looks a bit more critical. Her unwillingness to give up the visions could be read in a bit more selfish manner (I won't let go of that which makes me feel special about myself) or as something of a sign of religious fanatacism. In a Post-Jasmine situation, I don't think one could just trust the PtB or the Visions without some serious critical thinking...

Oh yeah, totally, it's the same thing that happened to Gunn in s5 and Willow on BtVS s6, I just meant that's how Angel viewed it & why he admired Cordy so much for it.

Hmmm...



So, you're agreed?

While I may disagree with some of your characterizations (being a big, unapologetic fan of the character Buffy), one of my problems with C/A is that I thought there was a "been there-done that" kind of thing in many respects as compared to B/A. Yeah, I think Angel and Cordy had a really lovely friendship even brother/sister kind of vibe, but it was totally ruined. And if it's true that DG wanted to set up a "Becoming"-like situation in which Angel had to sacrifice Cordy (as Buffy sacrificed Angel), then it was a very sorry rehash. I hated the personality lobotomies both characters were subjected to in season 3 to try to make it possible. Plus, as has already been said here, the curse was still there so it's not like it could ever go anywhere that B/A didn't.

D'oh!

Selflessness.

My take on this is related to SoH's post but goes a bit further. I agree with Angel relating to the suffering and martyrdom. But, I think that the conversation between Angel and Cordelia in Cordelia's bedroom in TVT (one of my favorite scenes of the whole series) also reveals to Angel and the audience that Cordelia views the painful visions, on some level, as punishment for the person she was in Sunnydale. I remeber being surprised by this revelation the first time I saw the episode. I knew that she had more of an interest in helping people after her experience in To Shanshu In LA, but I had not really considered the fact that she might honestly believe that she was being punished for her past. And hey, who can relate to that better that Angel?

But for a lot of people, myself included, it had been so brainwashed into us during seasons 1&2 of Buffy that Cordelia was trying to take Angel from Buffy that the thought of Cordelia and Angel together sends up a wave of shock. I'm not to dire of a B/A shipper, but when the idea of Cordelia and Angel together came up, my first thought was "That's not right, because we were told that any relationship between them would be bad and make Buffy unhappy".



That's how their relationship should've stayed. DB and CC had amazing chemistry when they were happy and bantering, and even more so when they were sad together, but I always felt that there was a lack of chemistry, maybe owing to the fact that it was such an angsty unrequited love thing.

That said, I thought they were fabulous during "You're Welcome"

Mwah!

In watching the Angel S3 DVD's and the growing relationship between Angel and Cordelia, I never once thought about Buffy. Not once! All I thought about was "Kyrumption!" and Cordy and Angel laying in bed together, an infant Connor between them. I love Cordy's arc through seasons 1-3, and it felt right to me that she and Angel would form a more serious relationship.

I really really did not like Cordy/Angel – I do think the actors had some chemistry, and I was fine with it in Waiting in the Wings, when they were possessed, but I hated it when they started thinking they were “really” in love. Ugh! It was just so wrong. They were friends, they were coworkers, why wasn’t that enough, why does every character have to hook up with another? I AM a B/A fan, but I don’t think that was my problem w/ C/A. I was fine seeing Angel w/ Darla, and I was fine considering a possible Angel/Fred thing back at the end of s2, but Cordy was just wrong for him as a love interest. I know we are supposed to think that Cordy had grown as a woman and was no longer a superficial egotistical tactless girl, blah blah blah, but other than being TOLD this (eg, when Wesley tells Angel that “our Cordy has changed”) I see no evidence of it, she still seems to be a superficial egotistical tactless girly girl. I think Fred (or even Faith) had a lot more potential for Angel – you know, conflicted, endured torment that most humans never know, brainy (well, not Faith), on the social fringes, not a follower, etc etc. (I suppose the case could be made that Cordy has also endured torment, but I just don't see it.) I think the s3/s4 arc would have had MORE meaning for me if Angel simply loved Cordy as a FRIEND – as it was, I was thinking, “GOOD! I’m glad she’s evil! Now we can get over this are-they-in-love crap!”

I really liked Angel and Cordy as friends but I seriously on't buy them as a couple. I doubt Cordy would ever risk the possibility of making Angel perfectly happy and unleashing Angelus.

I think Cordy has gone through torment that others haven't. As far as I can recall, nobody else in the Buffyverse has been tortured the way Cordy was in To Shanshu In L.A. She has endured a lot of torment:

-BtVS s3. She has her heart broken by Xander and Willow, is impaled, loses all her friends (both the Scoobies and the Cordettes), and has no future to look forward to.

-AtS s1. We start the series off with Cordelia so desperate and poor that she's whoring herself out for auditions and stealing food. By the end, she's lost a friend in Doyle, dealt with the visions, and accepted her role as someone who fights and helps the helpless alongside Angel and Wesley.

(But, then again, Cordy was the entire reason I even bothered tuning in in the first place, as Angel had never held any interest for me before. And the A/C friendship, for me, was the best part of the show.)

I'd go on, but I'm realizing that this seems like something that belongs in the Cordy topic.

That said, I don't have any problems with the writers pairing any two characters together, so long as it's handled properly. And, while Cordy and Angel certainly had their moments, it just didn't work for the most part (and I hated the "kyerumption" and "moira" stuff, btw). They worked best as friends. In retrospect, I wish the writers had kept to pairing main characters to people outside the group.

That way, we could've avoided the Wesley/Fred/Gunn "love" triangel crap as well as all the "kyerumption" nonsense.

In addition to the examples you listed piercingsilence, she got “body-jacked“ on her birthday.


I love Angel & Cordy’s brother/sister-like friendship. Cordy is the one person currently in Angel’s life that will get in his face when it’s needed and I always felt like that was important. I didn’t want them to get together because I didn’t want to ruin their dynamic, plus it seemed like typical TV writing to get the leads together. As a Bangel shipper I did think about how the Angel & Cordy ship would change Angel & Buffy’s relationship, but that was a minor concern.

After a S3 marathon last fall, I decided that while a ship between those two could be not only possible but plausible, the writers screwed it up. Show ME, don’t tell, or rather, don’t shove down my throat! It would have been easier to take without Fred & Lorne’s incessant talk of “kyrumption.” I could see the two of them falling in love, being horrified at the notion, trying to “act as if nothing had changed” and major angst ensuing. For one, neither of them wants Angel to have his moment of happiness. But after “Rain of Fire,” I was so damn pissed at Cordy, there was no way I wanted Angel to get with her.

I thought DB & CC had lots of chemistry together. I liked them in “Waiting in the Wings;” great (possessed) passion between Angel & Cordy, which only made me uncomfortable in the way that you get sometimes when you see two friends that have been platonic hook up. You know, “oh that’s hot, wait those are my friends!”

I thought DB & CC had lots of chemistry together…..until “Awakening.” That bedroom scene was one of the most passionless, by-the-numbers “lovemaking” scenes I’ve ever seen. (Having Angel call out Buffy’s name was a great touch though.) By that time though, I was ready to just be done with the whole thing! (They were great in “Your Welcome” though.)


You said “triangel.” Heh.

Word, Nay.
There is no need for every main character to get paired off with another main character-- it's tedious and just doesn't fit with canon. I liked that this was a show with male and female main characters where the show didn't try to shoehorn romance into it. Cordelia certainly matured during her post-Sunnydale days,but when the C/A romance started she wasn't mature, she was boring-they took all the fire out of her. Before that Cordy was the person who saw past the "handsome man saved me from the monsters" bullshit, and saw Angel as a goofy guy who tries and fails, just like everyone else. But when they got together she got all starry-eyed and swoony, and it went from a fun, likeable friendship, to a boring, cardboard typical TV love affair. You're right Tripod, there are some very sweet moments, but to me those moments 1.) aren't enough to take them from friends to LOVE OF AGES and 2.) could have been done with any two characters in history to the same effect. Awww, they're cuddling with the baby! Obviously they must be meant for each other! There love story was full of generic love scenes that seemed to just make the audience go awww without thinking of the characters. (I'm not really explaining this well, but hopefully it's understandable.)
The thing is, this coupling really worked my last nerve. Darla was annoying, but at least she had some spunk. Then along comes Pylea, and Fred, and fucking babies, and this schmoopy couple--blech! I wanted to throw in the towel with the series. Thankfully Season 4 was significantly more fucked up and less schmoopy. But if, Angel had gotten his moment of happiness and not said Buffy's name, so help me, I think I would have thrown up a little.
All that being said, did anyone see this coming in Season 2? I did at the very end of the season, when Cordy says "I love him" Angel assumes she's talking about him. I thought "Oh no. That's where they're going." Damn I hate being right all the time.


No offense, but I don't think Cordy is the queen of torment in the Buffyverse--there's plenty of pain and terror to go around!
I mean, Buffy died twice, was heartbroken and left by Angel, dragged back from heaven, lost her mother, nearly raped, and betrayed several times. Fred spent several years as a slave in an alternate dimension, and got bodyjacked by Illyria. It just sucks to be female in Joss' world!

Mostly, it just sucks to be in Joss' world. Male or female.

No, I don't think Cordy has the monopoly on torment in the Buffyverse because of what happened in TSiLA, but I do think she endured a very extreme and painful form of torture. She, like so many other characters on both shows, has gone down a long, painful road, and I don't envy her. Nor do I think of her any less of her than I do Buffy, Faith, or Fred. They all suffered mightily in their own right.

All I'm saying is that, yes, I object to the C/A romance but, no, I don't object to it because I feel that Cordy lacks character or somehow isn't good enough for Angel.

Well, I think Cordelia was far, far more important to Angel than Angel was to Cordelia. Cordelia was his lifeline to humanity, his connection to the world. When she got the Visions, she also became his connection to the otherworld -- she was everything. She was what Angel was fighting for, a constant reminder of "why we fight".

Angel is never more determined than when he is fighting on Cordelia's behalf -- he'll move the world for her. Compare that with Buffy Season 1.

Angel had intense feelings for Cordelia, and add to that the nature of their "work", its bound to generate "heat".

Now, I think it was Lorne who pushed Angel into thinking of Cordelia romantically -- I don't think he was before Lorne told him he was. And Cordy never even seemed to consider Angel romantically, until her own vision told her (which I doubt the veracity of this vision). So, this so-called romance never really existed, but rather was hinted at. And while I would have enjoyed it (and did enjoy the fake-outs and almost moments), I don't think it was ever to be.

Angel's feelings for Cordelia make Season 4 especially horrible, since he is betrayed by the "woman" he's staked almost his entire existence on.

I must be in the minority because I didn't dislike the idea of Cordy and Angel. I don't think Cordy was ever quite as heartless in Angel as she was in early Buffy and I think she and Angel became really close. I think the show really missed her in S5, particularly in terms of comic relief.

However I did like how it played out. It was interesting and kind of sad that they would have liked to have given a relationship a shot but never got the chance. It was better than Joss Whedon's usual tendency to have a couple in love and then kill one of them off, so the other could be miserable.

I liked the fun, easy vibe between Angel and Cordy. I could see how they might get close and try a little romance, but then decide they're better off friends.

Knowing that there was a whole elaborate (and sometimes obscure) plan set into motion to bring Jasmine forth has really affected my view of S3/4 Angel and Cordy though, because I do feel like Fred and Lorne were "pushed" to suggest this great love (and yeah, the kyrumption angle is what killed any interest I had in seeing Angel and Cordy take their feelings further).

By the time you get to "You're Welcome" , the sadness for what might have been is palpable, and I bought that.

I think that's just about the best I've heard anyone describe the relationship. C&A were just kind of into each other, and that wasn't a big deal. It didn't have that teenage tragedy heaviness to it that B/A did, or centuries of backstory like Darla. They were just good friends who seemed to vibe pretty heavily, but business and a lack of tequila seemed to get in the way of anything happening.

ITA, Angel & Cordy's relationship did have a strong "vibe" that "coulda been more" but was better left with friendship. Watching their storyline in "Your Welcome" was so bittersweet because I really did feel that stinging "what if?"

That's a great point - Angel has had two epic, sturm-und-drang relationships in the past few hundred years, plus some possible hookups, but has never really had a normal, non-world-shaking dating relationship. Dating Cordy would have been a change for him, and maybe a good one.

The problem with Cordy and Angel, for me, was the same problem I have with most TV romances: I just don't care. I'm a heartless crank, perhaps, but I don't. Friendships interest me so much more because there is usually so much more depth and capacity for nuance. Romance usually comes across as kissy melodramatic crap. Angel's complicated friendship with Wesley was by far more interesting than his "were we in love?" thing with Cordy because they were capable of loving each other (in a non-slashy way) and despising each other at the same time, and it all seemed real. TV romances tend to be one-dimensional, and I'm not sure whether that's a failing of the medium or the writers. All my opinion, of course.

I don't like when Angel gets into relationships. That's just me, I find the show worked best when Angel was miserable and alone. And then of course after being beaten over the head with the issue of his curse in Buffy S3, there is no mention of it in Angel S3 except for that throwaway line in "Tomorrow". That bothered me to no end.

I don't know, I just never saw any love there, I just always thought of them as very close friends. It doesn't help that the characters are told that they are in love instead of them figuring it out for themselves. It didn't help that most of their dialogue was .....corny to be generous. I do love both characters just.......ya know...... not together.

Phew that was longer then I expected for my first post.

That's pretty short compared to my long-winded posts. :) Welcome.

Yeah, I think you're right: Angel's at his best when he's a miserable, lonely bastard. Or when he's in leather pants.

I'm with you on that one. I much prefer an interesting, complicated friendship to a boring, cliched romance. That being said, I could almost buy Cordelia and Angel as a couple because their feelings towards each other weren't the stereotypical "two strangers lock eyes across a crowded room and immediately fall 'in love' at first sight, etc.".

They started out working together, living together for a time between S1 and S2, and taking care of a child together. In short, they started out with a solid real world foundation of friendship and shared interests, not some high-school crush.

I can understand why there would be a demand for a C/A romance. I wished the writers would have done something like they did with Joyce and Giles on BtVS, just let them "do it" under some mystical influence to get it over with and let them both look sheepishly at each other for a couple of episodes and then move on.

I liked the little flirtations that went on between C/A, I thought those were cute, but when it became (or tried to become) this deep, abiding love they lost me. I would have liked Cordelia to engage in a pursuit of the perfect guy (which for her means rich, rich, rich) and Angel come to the realization that he was like every other man on the planet and could quite easily have sex without love :D, thus sidestepping that pesky perfect happiness curse.