I hate that phone call between Dawson and Pacey. Sorry, but it's bull shit. I notice something. Actually, now that I read the transcript, it doesn't bother me as much. Pacey is just saying that's all he use to care about was being his best friend. I don't buy into what Dawson's saying about being proud of Pacey. Please, 621 confirms he's full of shit. Yey, Joey likes to coddle Dawson. He was there, so of course she is going to butter him up. He just gave her tons of money, she probably feels she owes him something. Don't forget 602 and how Joey finally admits that Dawson is a manipulator and expects limitations on her.

I hated Charlie's hair this episode. Joey's hair doesn't bother me. Good continuity. Jack said Jen hasn't had sex since he's known her. Well, she did with Chris. Her and Jack weren't friends, so it's not like he would have known.

I can't wait for my favorite Audrey quote: "Listen I know your a simple girl who grew up on a stream or whatever..." She was such a fun character until Pacey screwed the fun out of her. Kinda like how he screwed the sane out of Andie and the truth out of Joey. Pacey has a power to turn his screwing into evil! *shrugs* Oh well, he still is the perfect boyfriend.

glitter, I don't think Pacey did anything to Audrey's character. She was still funny and pretty likeable when they were together during season 5. My problem was how she expected the worst out of Pacey and how she manipulated him. I mean, she used the Joey card to get him to stay at the hotel. She kissed her ex to make him jealous and get a commitment. She expected him to cheat on her with Alex. Say what you will about Joey, but she knew Pacey would never cheat on her which she even told Audrey. In season 6, I think knowing that Pacey was still in love with Joey did affect her. Yey, she was drinking before they broke up, but she still took his car and drove it into the house. Her snarky comments to Joey after they broke up. She wouldn't talk to Joey for weeks.

Maybe sex with Pacey is so good that it's imposible to keep sane, after all Joey went back to Dawson right after Pacey and noone in thier right mind would ever date Dawson after dating someone like Pacey.

Word, Hex!!! That's the only possible explanation that makes sense. Works for me!!!

love that idea Hex. She had to go to his house in the middle of the afternoon to have some. Remember, Joey never said she regretted sex with Pacey. She regretted lying about having sex with Pacey. Joey did say having sex with Dawson was a huge mistake.

Well if sex with Pacey makes you insane, I would love for you to call me crazy!!! LOL! Happy New Year All!!!!
<----Dreaming of "the year of Josh".

LOL! Yet, a chance they all seemed willing to take. Over and over and over again. And can anyone really blame them? :-)



Yeah, I guess we should just be happy they didn't use "This Year's Love," huh?

Happy New Year all!

Kinda like Buffy because after screwing her, her boyfriends turned into evil, insane, and adiction people. At least he didn't suffer the same kinda of personality destruction that Buffy went through.

See I've been thinking, maybe the sex is so good that women are forced to sacrifice something to obtain it. Audrey was willing to give up her sassiness, Andie was willing to give up the bird in the coo-koo clock, and Joey was willing to break all ties with honest Abe. It's a curse for him really, poor thing.

Just remember, Pacey felt like Joey deserved better! Of course, she was a "freaking goddess".

What's better than Pacey? Well, besides Tobey.

Only Joey, herself, Hex. Only Joey. So, she had nowhere better to go.

So she decided to go to the bottom of the dating barrel? Joey has , to her credit, broken up with Dawson several times and each time she always manages to snag a great guy but to rebound with Dawson is just wrong, no matter how much she was hurting, because Dru was still open and he,as well as almost every other guy on the planet IMO, is better than Dawson.

Dawson was Joey's consolation prize. I felt bad for Jen too. That is why I can't ship Dawson and Jen. I know there are Dawson and Jen shippers. The girl was getting bored of him and that is why they broke up. I think Audrey was funny, but I did think she become kind of shrill. She like expected Pacey to cheat on her. Then, he almost does. It's like her self concept of him. What has he ever done to make her think he would have? They have been together for at least a few months and she just expects the worst. That's why I could never by the airport declaration. He so didn't want to go. So calm about missing her

fill me in ScarletGirl, what's wrong with 'This Year's Love'?

I was recently watching the PJ dance scene in the finale. Now, I'm not one to speak ill of the dead and departed BUT, WHO didnt feel just a teensy-weensy bit peeved/enraged/uber-frustrated at Jen's timing with the passing out?...once the whole is-she-okay thing had passed of course....*cough*


hope everyone had a blast New Year's eve.

Word to all of this, Hex. In my world, Coda and The Kids are Alright are only dream sequences -- more like nightmares. I boycott these episodes and try to pretend they don't exist.

Last night I watched Stolen Kisses yet again. Aside from Aunt Gwen and her insufferable hellmate fluffing, I found a new scene that makes my skin crawl. Near the end of the episode, Joey is trying to get up the nerve to tell Dawson that she is feeling it with Pacey. Aunt Fluff, er, I mean Aunt Gwen, interrupts the conversation and Joey uses the interruption as an excuse to bail out. As she leaves, she pats Dawson on the arm.

And then, I realized it. Any bodily contact between Joey and Dawson makes me want to puke. I know it was only a gesture of kindness and that Joey was falling for Pacey. I know she was just about to go out to talk to Pacey, to grab his hand as he was walking away, and that she was about to kiss him, not the asshat. But still, just to see her touch Dawson's arm made me sick.

Now, when I pointed this out to one of my 13-year old twins, she thought I had totally lost it. She's probably right. But I just wanted to scream at my TV that Dawson is a sociopathic stalker. And, as demonstrated by Aunt Gwen, it runs in the family. Run, Joey, run!


I love Jen, though I rarely say it. She deserved better than Dawson. In fact, when Pacey and Jen were experimenting with their emotion-free sex pact, I could have become a Pacey/Jen shipper pretty easily. But then Pacey and Joey got together and I lost all interest in ever seeing Pacey with Jen.

Speaking of this transition, am I the only one who sympathizes with Jen when she and Pacey got caught making out in the coat room during Four to Tango? She just got so exasperated when she learned that Pacey had confided in Joey about their pact. Just what she needed -- to have yet another guy lose interest in her because of Joey.

Back to pretzel's comment, I would like to add that MW deserved to have better story lines and to have been treated with more respect. After all the shit the writers piled upon Jen, she sure as hell didn't need to get stuck in the role of Dawson's consolation prize.


Having just spoken of my love for Jen, I feel free to agree with you anchorgirl. I also wish they had not made that kiss in response to Maddie's presence. Again, in my world, it would have been enough for Joey and Pacey to simply have grown up enough to realize they were right for each other. They could have spent the entire second hour on P/J goo, and it would have been fine with me. Oh, that and the scene where Dawson walks out to the end of the dock, lights himself on fire, puts a gun in his mouth, pulls the trigger, and topples into the creek.

OT, but EMERGENCY!!!!

Does anybody know when Pacey's birthday is? I really need to know -- it's sometime in the winter, but I need to know the date. Is there any way to find out?

Pacey's birthday...if I remember correctly, he's an Aquarius (like me!). I believe his birthday was in January, around the early 20s...

Nothing's wrong with it - it's PJ's song. I was lamenting that the show used "Daydream Believer" (aka the song that was playing when Joey first kissed Pacey) for the DJ kiss in "Coda." spider pointed out that PJ got a DJ song in the finale, so they were even. But, to me, had a David Gray song come anywhere near DJ...flames, flames on the side of my face!

BTW, listen to the David Gray song that is playing in the background of the PJ scene in the third episode and tell me how that whole scene was supposed to be anything but closure ("Say Hello, Wave Goodbye," with lyrics about never knowing each other, blah blah blah we-weren't-the-real-dealcakes).

A couple other things about the first few eps that made it painfully obvious that we were all supposed to forget PJ:

- Audrey likening Dawson to her h.s.boyfriend. Now, clearly, her description of him doesn't match Dawson (it actually sounds more like what Pacey did with Joey, ie "we were going in two seperate directions...."), but we were all supposed to understand that *Joey* was likening it to Dawson, as she then called him.

- Before PJ even meet again, we see Pacey canoodling with Melanie, crystalizing how he spent his summer *and* we get the beginnings (craptastic as they were) of Pacey/CKAK. Why didn't they just scroll "Pacey's moved on" across the bottom of the screen?

- The first meeting between PJ. Obviously meant as closure. And *might* have worked to except for the fact that when JJ and KH were in a scene with just the two of them, the chemistry was still there. But, still, the writers wanted us to put the flowers on the grave of this couple.



Two things: One, the first kiss was a response, but the second, and more intimate, imo, cheek kiss was all about the luv! Secondly, the seeds were planted before they knew of Jen's condition with both P and J feeling like something was "off" with their lives - Joey, with questioning why she wasn't giddy at the prospect of marrying Christopher, and Pacey, who should have been happy/happy with his business going well, but was having his case of the "is this it?s." One could say that while Jen's pending death made them finally take the blinders off, there was perhaps something already brewing underneath the surface - Jen's death just made them realize that now, rather than later, was the time to act.

I agree with all of the above, Scarlet. I was simply exaggerating my often expressed desire to have seen more of the resolution of the P/J decision. I thought MW did a fabulous job in the finale, and brought tears to the eyes of this cynical old guy. But I will never stop wishing that we had been given the ultimate deal sealing moment between Joey and Pacey instead of the penultimate kitchen scene.

Oh well, I'm getting tiresomely repititious, so I'll stop.

Hear, hear! I really hate that because it just feels like everyone got robbed. The DJers got that stupid "we will always be each other's best friends" speech, and since the DJ relationship never was any more that a lot of talk, you'd think the DJers would have been satisfied -- but they weren't. They wanted the big fated romantic ending they'd been promised for 6 seasons. Meanwhile, the PJers got even less. They didn't even make it clear why Pacey was there -- maybe he just needed a place to crash while he was visiting New York. Sorry, but "It's us!" was not the acknowledgement of commencing a lifelong love relationship that I was waiting to hear. I just can't shake the idea that even at the very end, the damn writers just wouldn't commit, and that half-assed ending was another attempt to make things ambiguous enough to please everyone.

Sorry, I've ranted on this before, but S5 is so damn boring, I really have nothing to say about the episodes that are on right now.

Well, you made me go back a watch the dance/kiss scene again. What a sacrifice. I agree that the second one was more intimate, but with the way Katie played it, it looked like the first one rocked Joey's world.

Eh, I don't think it was ambiguious at all, though I do agree they thought they were pleasing everyone by giving the DJers the final soulmate talk and giving the PJers the couch scene. However, I honestly believe - even without PS/KW commentary on the dvd - that the implication was that PJ were together, in every sense of the word (ie he was living in NYC) and that it was 4eva!

Do I wish we had gotten a great onscreen PJ scene where this was specifically said? Sure I do (hell, I put a curse on both Gale and Bessie for their kitchen interruptus <g>)! But, considering I, who was spoiled up the ying yang for the finale, was still waiting for them to pull a switcheroo and end with DJ, I can, quite nicely, fill in the blanks of what happened between when Joey hugged Dawson at his house and the final couch scene, and know that Pacey and Joey did get the happy ending.



Oh, I agree. In a way, it was like a replay of the roadside kiss when every started with PJ. This one got Joey starting to realize what exactly it was she was missing in her life.

From 623 Recap by Wing Chun:


'Nuff Said

I probably shouldn't be admitting this, but I actually kind of like Coda. I know it's crazy, but it just doesn't really bother me that much. I like the scenes with Jack, Jen, and Grams. I love those three together. The scene where Grams was talking about her and her husband was sweet. I also like the goodbye scene between Dawson, Jack, and Jen. I like some of the callbacks to season 1, like when Grams opens the door and sees Dawson and Jen outside or when Jen tells Joey "I like your hair color, what number is it?" or when she tells Dawson "wit. we like that around here." It all had a very reminiscent feel to it.

Joey's my favorite character, so I usually enjoy watching most of her scenes, even if they are with Dawson. The Dawson/Joey scenes aren't too bad in Coda, IMHO. They were actually kind of acting like real friends. I thought Katie did a really good job in her scenes, especially the ones where she and Dawson are saying goodbye outside on her porch (I particularly like the part where Joey says that she'll see him at Christmas. She's trying to sound joyful, but her eyes start filling with tears. It always gets to me) and the one where she makes her "do you believe in magic?" speech. The lines about the magic running out with Pacey and not falling for a sea creature don't bother me. She's got a right to be a bit bitter after the way things ended. Pacey yelling at her at prom, telling her she makes him feel like nothing, then leaving and not contacting her. She could have said a lot worse than what she said. Also, she never technically said that Dawson kissing her was her most life altering moment. She said there were a lot of winners there and she just mentioned that one. Maybe she chose that one because she was speaking to Dawson and they were reminiscing. I don't think Joey had any romantic feelings for Dawson in this episode. I think she was just going to miss her best friend. This was a big turning point in their lives. They were going to be living on opposite coasts. I think the kiss was just a goodbye kiss. It was completely different than the season 1 finale kiss, for example. Dawson still went to California. I don't think Coda really undid all of season 4. There were a couple references to Joey still thinking about Pacey "every 10 seconds."

I don't like the start of season 5 though. That to me is when the writers really start to try to wash away all memories of Pacey and Joey and push forward the Dawson and Joey romantic angle.

LMAO!!!! I know this was a couple pages back, but I still feel compelled to compliment glitter for this. As was said before, if only you could've been writing DC. Needless to say, I wouldn't be forever boycotting Coda if THIS had been Pacey's phone call.

No, I feel this way, too. I felt bad for Jen because of the way Joey reacted, but also for the reasons you stated. Jen was so sweet, though. She could see that Pacey felt bad and was confused, so she tried to comfort him a little before she left--and she remained his friend. I love Jen. I really think she was the most mothering and nurturing character on the show--and I like that.

dc friends, I understand what you are saying about Coda. It didn't bother me that much the first time I saw it either. I liked the scene at the ruins and the goodbye scene with Dawson, Jack, and Jen. I had actually forgotten that. They bought him a cell phone. I liked the phone call, too, as I said before. I also didn't get any romantic vibes from D/J in this episode at all--not even the kiss...hehe...though I could have done without that. Ick. I think this episode bothers me more as time goes on--not necessarily because of anything in this episode, but because of the way thing went after this, I guess.

Even that doesn't bother me too much any more, though, because I've come to terms with it now. Also, I never really had to suffer through wondering if P/J would ever end up together since the finale was one of the first episodes I saw. I was more curious about P/J's history than anything else as I watched the show for the first time.

I didn't hear bitterness, though. I heard acknowledgement - as if, she had just realized that what she thought she had with Pacey wasn't the real deal, and that's what bothered me (ahem, to put it mildly) about Coda. Whatever implications we, the viewers (or, more aptly, PJ fans) thought in regard to the bullshit of it, or the totally un-romantic vibe between D and J, that was what the underlying message was - that D and J ultimately were the ones who would always end up back together, thru fate or destiny or whatever other stupid term du jour the writers were going with on any given day.



She was also clearly the most intuitive of the bunch. Maybe because for alot of it, she was more an observer to the triangle rather than an active participant (though there was that unfortunate incident of her having to deflower Dawson. As if the poor girl wasn't doomed enough...) and you can always see things clearer from that position. But I always loved the way she would drop a comment hear and there - be it to Joey, Dawson or Pacey - and it was invariably dead-on correct.

I believe that was you, Scarlet. If they had touched any David Gray song, they would owe me for a new television. That would have been wrong, wrong, wrong!


I heard that conversation again this week, and again I was reminded of the banishment of continuity. Audrey's story was *so* PJ. Most importantly, because she and Chris (her Dawson) had actually - gasp - been in a relationship through her senior year! How can you find similarities in relationships if the relationship didn't happen? Bwah!


I hate this, too. However, I have rationalized it: the DJers got talk, the PJers got action. Whee!


Did I read that the second kiss was an adlib? If so, it would explain why KH played up the response to the first "staged" kiss - she didn't know the second one was coming.


Ah, Coduh. I completely agree, Scarlet, though I want to add one thing: the writers didn't earn Coduh. We go from Separation Anxiety and The Graduate - episodes in which there was angst and continuing love between PJ, but not what I would call "resentment". Sadness, yes. But definitely a theme of right person, wrong time. Then we get Coduh - very little Pacey, and all of a sudden DJ are best buds again? His leaving will break her heart? Um, no. You can't get there in one episode. Could they, in a few episodes, have shown Joey seeking refuge in Dawson after the Pacey breakup? Sure. It would have sucked, but it could have been done realistically. However, going from "take Capeside with you" to Dawson mackage? Hello, contrivance. Why don't you stick around for S5?

LMAO!!!HAHAHAHHAHAH oh,TripleMaster, you just have a way of putting things...ehehe

I read that and realized that the only thing that equals my love for p/j is my hatred for asshat. I am however taking steps to lessen my vendetta aginst The Beek. I'm aiming for indifference! let the healing begin!

You got that right, friend. Hell, I'm already tearing up at the PJ scene in episode 3 where they use "Say Hello, Wave Goodbye." White Ladder is 100% PJ (If "Sail Away" isn't the lyrical epitome of their summer on True Love, nothing is).



Word! I mean, I sit there every freakin' time I hear it and literally yell to Audrey, "Girl, Chris ain't your Dawson, Chris is your Pacey." Funny, she never seems to hear me! And isn't it ironic (except, yeah, not so much) that Pacey later gets the "he was my Dawson" line thrown in his face (at which point I always yell, "No, tv boyfriend, Chris was her Pacey. Oh, wait, that's you. And you're already with her. Oh, hell, just forget it - it's Season 5, where there is no past unless it's tied to a soulmate." I don't think he hears me, either. Weird.)



I thought I heard it was a Josh ad-lib (the guy has the best adlibs throughout the years). Even at that, I think KH continued the "Whoa" look throughout. Not that I can blame her!



Geez, you're reading my mind today. How they went from two episodes of PJ practically crying in their hypothetical beers about not being together anymore to that is a mystery for the ages. Because, Coduh made it seem like wrong person, not just bad timing. And that flies in the face of the whole "you wouldn't have to ask, Pace" line.



Know what else sticks in my craw? She asked. him. to. stay. Writers: "Hello, PJ fans? Remember when Joey couldn't ask Pacey to stay, despite his plea, in S3 finale? Well, chew on this, suckers!"

In their rush to get a DJ season finale, they totally disregarded everything of real relevance we had seen in the previous 22 episodes. Because no matter how much they danced around the notion that Joey couldn't let Dawson go, they never actually wrote it in a romantic way. Guilt, yes. Fear of losing his pathetic friendship? Sure. But out-and-out "I don't know if I really want Pacey or Dawson?" No way.

What I think is funny is that when I watched the DJ kiss at the end of S4 I thought that it was a goodbye kiss not a lets get back together kiss.

You guys go and bring up David Gray and I can't help but fall in love all over again with White Ladder. As some of you so perfectly pointed out the album White Ladder is the soundtrack of Pacey and Joey. Anytime I listen to it I think of them first.

In fact I very much associate David Gray with P/J. Anytime I hear a David Gray song I think first of Pacey and Joey...before my mind starts thinking of other things.

If TPTB had allowed a David Gray song to be used for any DJ scenes I would have flipped out.

As for the cheek kiss it's one of my all time favourites. When the Series Finale first aired I remember posting about that kiss b/c it just about blew my mind.



ITA. With the seeds already planted that first kiss was a response, but the second one was truthful, intimate and undeniable.

Me, too! Matter of fact, I just finished listening to it, as all this talk (that, er, well, I started) got me really needing to listen to it again.

Know what? Let them have used "Daydream Believer" for the DJ CoDUH kiss. As long as they didn't touch WL, I can deal (which I'm sure is to the relief of everyone! ;-))



As we've already discussed the KH look, JJ does give her quite the sizzling look back! Then damn Jen had to go collapse and spoil the moment! ;-)

Yey, Audrey's speech about Chris kind of bothers me, but not really, It's about how they can't let each other grow up and had to cut the cord. That was not the problem with Joey and Pacey. There were aspects of Joey and Pacey, but not everything she said about it. Joey just proves once again she is retreating back to being a little girl. Even when Audrey brings up Chris in 519, Joey says she had a Dawson and he is part of her past. Yes, she kissed him at the airport, but did you see her go with him. No, she didn't. She said he was a huge part of her life, but she didn't say he was her entire life. It felt very ambiguous to me.


I agree with dcfriends. Katie played Joey very bitter in Coda when she mentions Pacey, not that it was a mistake, but that of he left me and ran off. That's how I saw it. She seems very sad when they are watching the movie.

Going back a little bit, in reference to Coduh:


Big fat word. I know I'm repeating myself, but I feel like I need to - Separation Anxiety/The Graduate were played by KH and JJ as realizations that their timing sucked, but they still loved each other. Witness the Worthington party invite scene/Joey staying over at Pacey's/"take Capeside with you"/""you wouldn't have to ask." There is a huge gap between that emotion and the "magic has run out" line we get in Coduh.

When is Coduh set? Dawson's leaving for summer session, so the entire summer hasn't passed, but it does seem like some times has passed between the Graduate and Coda. Maybe the writers thought we'd assume that Joey's attitude had turned to resentment when she realized Pacey had left without *really* saying goodbye. And she very well may have. But we needed a scene to show that...it isn't a change in emotion you can assume.


Hee! But Scarlet, I think they ignored the entire past. 'Cause the DJ past didn't equate with DJ actions in S5 to me.


Not to mention her heartfelt speech in Failing Down, was it? About how Pacey inspired her in a way no one else could? Pffft!

word. word. word. I have felt this way since season 3! I always felt that the triangle wasn't a romantic triangle, it was a triangle between a girl and a guy who loved each other, and a girl and a guy who's friendship she didn't want to lose. That theme continued throughout the run of the show. The DJ relationship always, always had that dark, heavy cloud of guilt hanging over it. It is hard for passion to come through when there is so much guilt all the time.

I will always be curious as to why TPTB came out gunning for PJ fans in season 5. It seems almost counter-productive to take a huge fanbase and keep kicking them in the shins. If they wanted to back away from Pj (although why they would want to do that is beyond me), there were a million ways to do that in an interesting fashion. But nope! I was actually excited to hear about melanie cause I thought we were going to get some angsty, tortured pacey to go along with it. Instead we got this emotionless guy for 23 episodes. I couldn't get a handle on joey either because all of her actions seemed to have no motivation. I never had any idea what she was thinking or why she was thinking it. ugh. The fics that came out that season did a much better job than the show did.


Before I go, I just wanted to give a shout-out to my most hated scene of all time......the "I didn't ask him to stay, Pacey" scene. Did they air the ep where the flash dies, yet? While I have many scenes vying for the spot of "most hated" in season 5 (does anyone remember the "dawson is the only guy..." line?), this scene fills me with a hatred so strong my eyes start to bleed. To me, Pacey looks almost amused when joey is telling him that dawson came back for her and Joey sounds pitying, like "you poor schlubb, i know this is going to kill you but oh well, we are soulmates, ya know". I hate it so very, very much.

I'm guessing The Evil Episode is set a month or so after The Graduate, six weeks tops perhaps. Doesn't Jack mention something about still having a lot of the summer or something? Regardless, a nice hearty word to you, spider, as you make a great point. *If* the episode was supposed to show Joey feeling angry or resentful, it just failed. Yes, in the opening scene, when DJ are watching the movie in his room and Pacey comes on screen, she flinches, but that was the only real moment you could perhaps conclude she was still really feeling anything about the relationship. Because in the later scenes, it's all about Dawson. Even when she's talking about the magic running out, it's in regard to how the magic *never* runs out with Dawson (yeah, you know, I guess WWDLS is conveniently swept away now, as it would put a crimp in this piece of revisionist history). It's not about being bitter that it did run out, supposedly, with Pacey - hell, he's actually only part of that speech, the rest including Dead Momma and Pothead Papa.



Pure speculation, but I think because the writers had zero (less than zero) intention of going back to PJ - whether that be because of their own bizarre, co-dependent relationship with all things DJ or because they truly wanted everyone to go in new directions - they were wary to give these two any sort of scenes together that could be construed as hopeful. I mean, let's be realistic - for as crappy and clueless as they seemed to be, even they (meaning the writers) had to be able to see the dynamic JJ and KH had together when put in scenes together. Especially one-on-one scenes. Had they had them, in any real fashion, talk about their past relationship, it probably would've mucked up the craptastic (thanks for putting this word in my mind, spider!) season they seemed so keen on writing.



Yet more examples of the writers hawkin' a lugey in the PJ fans faces! And, DOL the "Dawson is the only guy" line makes me want to heave every time I hear it. There aren't words strong enough to convey my content of the way the writing was going double-time to portray DJ as this love for the ages while PJ was just a puppy love/teen romance gone wrong.

I agree that the writers couldn't give Joey and Pacey any real scenes during seaon 5. Why else do you think they cut out that kitchen scene in 510? I think there was too much emotion put into it than it was suppose to. I remember them cutting out a few scenes in Coda where Joey comes home and asks Bessie if Pacey called and she is all upset. Then, later is when she decides to go see Dawson. Joey's line about Dawson being the only guy who ever was never finished. The Romeo and Juliet comment was bullshit. Watch how JJ plays it. Oh, I see. I will say what you want to hear. Joey said she didn't ask Dawson to stay is kind of true. After seeing Pacey in 503, she tells Dawson he has to do what he has to do. In 510, Dawson and Joey are talking about changing the future and Dawson says he decided to stay.

I always thought Joey telling Pacey, basically behind Dawson's back, that she did not ask him to stay (which, BTW, was true, because in his typically manipulative ways ..."Do you want us to become strangers? That's what will happen if I get on that plane, etc."... Dawson gave her no choice but to answer in the way she did, the answer he took as an invitation to stay) was almost worse than The Lie she told Dawson in season four. She betrayed Pacey in that moment, but it was a wrong spur of the moment response to a question that Dawson had no right to ask. Meanwhile, at Mitch's funeral in season five, Pacey is also assuring her he is okay with everything, they've supposedly got their closure and are past it all and Joey STILL feels the need to give him this information, completely unsolicited.

It's confidential information about her relationship with Dawson that she shares with Pacey, without Dawson EVER knowing she has basically just sold him out. She tells Pacey something about Dawson that she never tells Dawson, something Dawson would probably be devastated to hear. I don't care about Dawson's character, so it didn't affect me in the same way as the season four lie that hurt Pacey, but if you think about it, isn't this just as bad?

And having Joey say these kinds of things adds to what dirtyoldlady was saying, in that it only added to the cloud of guilt these two had floating over their heads. Joey admitted to Pacey and to the audience in that one moment that maybe she didn't REALLY want Dawson to stay, that it was Not.Her.Choice. A very, very wrong move on the part of the writers, and one that made her hesitation to give Dawson a straight answer in these prior episodes seem even more like it was that she really didn't want anything romantic to happen with them.

See, Goodnight. I am not feeling the romantic Joey and Dawson vibes in season 5 when Dawson shows up. It's like, I don't know what I want with you. Then, Mitch dies, so it's like Joey feels she is losing her place in Dawson's life, not neccessarily romantic. She just wants to be there for him and he pushes her away.

Regardless of if you saw DJ as romantically inclined in S5 or not (I, of course, saw more sexual chemistry coming from a test pattern...), the fact that cannot be denied is that the writers continued to push DJ in some fashion throughout that season. Time and again, they came back to it. Call it muddled story-arcing, call it lack of vision, call it fear of letting go of the initial storyline of the series, but it was there.

The same cannot be said for PJ - who were never supposed to be that huge, who took on a life of their own, who got a huge fan following, and were ratings grabber, yet still so easily swept under the rug in S5.

ETA: What swsa said below!

Now I'm torn. I really had never given this any thought before. I'm hesitant to put it up there with The Lie, just because in this instance it's not a lie at all. Additionally, the whole vibe of the P/J scene seems different to me. Namely in that part of Joey's motives in spilling seem to come from her own need to unload. Don't get me wrong, I also think she was trying to reassure Pacey, but there's a real sense of Joey trying to work this stuff out as well. So the P/J scene seems more like a conversation to me, and not like the confession scene between D/J. And really, I guess I feel like it's different because maybe I think Pacey deserves to know. She's not lying to make him feel better. She's telling him, "hey, we're not actually together. Maybe we will be, but we're not now. I haven't been keeping this from you. We haven't been making a fool of you behind your back. It's not a big deal." And that seems like much less of a betrayal of her relationship with Dawson than spilling all of her sex secrets about Pacey was.

That said? I do think you have a really good point, and a large part of me agrees. And hey, maybe I even want to see the betrayal there, just so I can feel like P/J are even with D/J again.

Heh. Maybe that's all I'm really doing, too, but knowing Dawson's character, don't you think he would be more than a little disturbed to overhear Joey admitting something like this to Pacey? What's worse, on the day of his father's funeral?

I also believe Joey was probably just trying to explain to Pacey how it all happened, but her need to assure Pacey that it wasn't exactly her choice to have Dawson stay and it wasn't a big deal, after Dawson had been badgering her to give him a straight answer about that very same thing, sort of makes me laugh because Dawson really come out looking like a fool.

Dawson was looking for her to ask him to stay, and the fact that's exactly what he ending up doing makes me assume we're supposed to think Dawson got the answer he wanted. As far as Dawson is concerned, Joey DID ask him to stay, in a way. She's telling Pacey that's NOT how it happened, and I love the fact in that moment she has given Pacey information that Dawson doesn't realize. Information that had the power to really hurt him. Maybe I do want the scales tipped after what she did to Pacey, but you have to admit that if Dawson ever found out she said that, to PACEY of all people, they'd be a number two or three on that worst moments in his life list. LOL

Interesting take - one, I admit, I had never really thought of before (though, to defend myself, once Pacey uttered the Romeo and Juliet reference I lost all coherent thought! ;-)). And doesn't she tell him right after he says "Ohhh, I get it" kind of, as you said, to assure him that wasn't what happened?



LOL! Well, nothing will ever take the place of WWDLS as "number one with a bullet," but hearing this would've thrown him into a tizzy!

I still don't really compare it to the. virginity. lie., but I think it could definitely be seen as, yet again, shining a nice big spotlight on the notion that Joey was always unsure of exactly what it was she felt, and wanted from, the Asshat.

Maybe Joey was just screwing with Dawson's head so that he would fall in love with her so that when she hooked up with Pacey for good it would crush his soul.

LOL also. I would think it would still be behind what JUST happened to his father, but I guess with Dawson you never know. After all, according to him finding out about P/J was worse than a) finding out about his mom cheating and b) his parents divorce. What?

Anyway, I hesitate to give any comments on that scene as I haven't seen in a while... because I refuse to listen to Pacey's "you two deserve another shot" nonsense. That said, I do have to agree with goodnight and say that, even if it didn't really happen that way, I like the idea of Joey betraying Dawson - even in some small way. (although it would never come close to the lie, if for no other reason than P/J had been in a REAL relationship for almost a year). Regardless of whether or not Joey did something wrong there, you have to believe that had Dawson found out about it, he would've blown a gasket and that is something I definitely wouldn't have minded seeing. But alas, we have to wait until S6 and be subjected to the suckmate sex before we get their next knockdown-dragout. What a pity. I have to admit there's very few things in DC that give me more enjoyment than seeing D/J fight. Good times, people. Good times.

OT: I'm actually looking forward to the Melanie scenes this week because I haven'te seen them in a while and am curious about what my reaction to them will be.

Heh, I managed to miss this episode. What exactly happened, besides the sex which I don't want to know about.

Long story short (or at least shorter), Dawson failed to inform Joey that he was seeing someone else pre-suckmate sex. And even though Dawson took like 2 seconds post-sex to break up with other chick over the phone, Joey gets pissed at him and says what they did was just "two old friends making a huge mistake". Then Dawson accuses Joey of still being the same scared little girl (from the wrong side of the creek with a Mom who died and a Dad in jail... okay, he didn't say that... I added that part). I forget exactly how the episode itself ends, but needless to say it's FINALLY the last we see of D/J in a romantic sense.