I just have to bitch about S5 for a second. I really truly don't like it all. And I think a lot of it has to do with Spike (a lot not all). I hated him when he came back from disappearing with Dru on, and he essientally just pisses me off. He has no place on AtS other than saying bloody this and bloody that, and to just bug the hell out of Angel along with me. I hate how he already was the main focus of 2 episodes and I get all this good information about his psyche, while I know nothing about what's going with Angel (except little tidbits where Spike makes him self-evaluate) or Gunn. I keep hoping it will get better but reading Spoilers I just don't see it.

There are other things that pisses me off about S5; Wes' mooning over Fred, no Cordy, Gunn being this super-duper lawyer type that barely gets his violence on, how they aren't approaching the subject of why they are still working at W&H, staying in the W&H building way too much, how most things happen in the daytime and Angel is basking in the sun way too much, and Eve. I just want them to get on with the goddamn story instead of focusing on these MoTW. I'm not saying make it super arc-heavy like last season, but they can have little arcs here and there a la S2.

I watch my S2 dvd's over and over again, I stay up late on Tuesday nights to catch the S4 reruns (and I wake up at 5 am every morning), I make sure I'm home at 2 on Saturday afternoon to catch the S3 reruns.....but I don't and won't watch the S5 reruns while they are on hiatus on Wensday's. That's how much this season has dissappointed me. And yes I am obbessed with Angel, thanks for asking.

I totally agree, Imsuperoriginal. There have been a few bright spots to season 5, but precious few, and I think I'm hanging in there out of memories of what this show was rather than what it is. It's not nearly dark enough to be a show about a vampire, and I feel like I don't know the characters anymore (which I don't, since ME decided to push the happy reset button). What irritates me more than anything is that I had so much emotional investment in season 4, and, essentially, that season never happened. At least, I don't know what parts of it happened and what parts didn't. And it's making me cranky. OK, bitchfest over.

Maybe I'm just FredCrazy or something but I really like S5 so far. I like what they did with Gunn...seems he has more of a purpose now. It's nice to see them possibly pairing Fred up with someone who is as geeky as she is and not part of team Angel. Sure, I miss Cordy as much as the next person, but throughout season 3 & 4 I grew rather tired as it seemed that much of those seasons revolved around her. It's refreshing to get away from that here. Of course, it would be nice if the gang mentioned her now and then.

I really liked Hellbound (I think that's the name) with Spike and all the disturbing images...heh, they were more funny than anything. I grew to like Spike in Buffy towards the end and I'm still liking him now, even in his annoying state. Think about how you would feel if you were a ghost doomed to haunt Angel for an eternity..

A hearty WORD to everything you said, Imsuperoriginal. I'm a spoiler-phobe, so it scares me that having read spoilers, you are not psyched by what you know. I was soooo hoping that Lindsey's return would save S.5.

Way upthread, SNeaker said,

That pretty well sums it up. The new format is boring with the West-Wing hallway conferences and corporate sets. I loved Spike on BtVS, but his addition to AtS has been Dawn-style annoying. Here's hoping this season rights itself quickly, starting with the MoG back in street clothes and leather.

sneaker

jerry

You said it! I miss them getting in the street & mixing it up. And I really miss Cordy! She was such a big piece of the show. And Fred just ain't cutting it. And is Wes still even on the show? I'm disappointed that the cohesion between the members of the group is pretty much gone. *sigh*

The horrible opening credits for this season sadly sum this up... look they're walking through hallways!!! With files!!! And looking at people!!!! And holding books!!!!

Compare that to last season's slice and dice credits... and it makes you wonder what the hell is ME thinking with this whole new W & H format. It's like the whole show has been sterilized. The sets, the clothes, the characters...

I'm telling ya, it's that god-damned book slamming instead of the door-breaking in the opening credits. Throws everything off.

You said it! The change of the credits demonstrates the demise of our show: We've gone from
man of action Seasons 1-4 = Angel kicks in doors
to pencil pusher Season 5 = Angel slams notebooks

hellaYAWN

I've been enjoying this season a lot. I do wish Cordelia was mentioned more, but truthfully, I don't miss her. I couldn't stand what was done to her character inseason 3.

From my pov, every episode has been all about Angel - his state of mind, his interactions with everyone else, his increasing isolation - and I'm finding it fascinationg.

My problem with season 5 is that they've abandoned so much of what was great about the previous seasons. The evil lawyers, particularly Lilah. The MoG interaction for better or worse. The well crafted arcs.

I particularly miss Connor. And Lilah. Oh how I miss them. But I also miss Wes as more than a background character, waiting around with Lorne until their lines come up.

I don't blame Spike. JM is just doing his job and I do love seeing Spike and Angel snipe at each other. But they need to integrate him better and bring the show back to an ensemble, less Itchy and Scratchy (tm someone else). I think Spike gets the blame because he's new and has always been divisive. But I think Fred is similarly overused.

And please take Angel out of those awful suits. He used to have such a great wardrobe, now he just looks like a block.

I'm not particularly impressed by this season so far. But I don't think I've been particularly impressed by the first 8 episodes of any of the past seasons, either.

In conclusion: [shrug]. The W&H stuff tires me, but if I'm amused for an hour, that's not a deal-breaker.

I actually really liked the first 8 episodes of season 2. Still, I agree that while W&H has turned out to be a duller premise than might have been expected, the meat of the season has still to come. The writers promised a good arc in this season too, as well as standalones, so presumably they'll keep to their word?!

Yes, the puke green shirt that's never tucked in all the way has to go.

So far the glass is half full for me. I've disliked about four episodes, liked maybe three, and was amused by one. If I were to rank all eight of them it would go something like this:

• The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco
• Lineage
• Life of the Party
• Just Rewards
• Destiny
• Hellbound
• Unleashed

With the exception of "Destiny" and maybe the last one too, I think it's really the way the episodes are structured that I have more of a problem with than the actual content. "Spike goes to hell" sounds like a cool idea, but the way the episode was paced put me to sleep.

ETA: D'oh. I forgot the premiere, didn't I? Oh well, didn't like that one much anyway.

I'm not sure what's worse, nil - that there are only 7 eps listed, or that I had to go look up which one you've forgotten. What's unfortunate for me is that there's such a big gulf between the eps I liked and the eps I didn't like. Which makes it pretty much on par with S3 and 4 I suppose. Cinco and Lineage were fine eps for the most part; Life had good quips now and then...and then it takes this giant nosedive. I guess destiny was vaguely nice, but...

My main problem is, with the exception of Conviction (remember that one, it's the first), Life of the Party (which I loathed, so I remember that) and Cinco (unusual title), I can't actually remember what happened in which episode. All my mind produces is "blablabla DIE-EVE-DIE blablabla SHUT-UP-SPIKE blablabla OOOOH-LINDSEY blablabla WHERE-IS-ANGELS-STORY blablabla". I'm sure if I'd actually enjoyed the episodes, I'd remember more about what happened where. I've only seen S2 once or twice - the last time being a year or two ago, but I can distinctly remember what happened in those episodes. S5, a big pile of meh.

I personally don't get this. Of the six regular characters, the one whose story has been the most developed and explored this season, IMO, has been Angel's. I do think that some of the characters (*ahem* Lorne) have been a bit shortchanged this season, but Angel is not one of them. Episodes like Unleashed and Numero Cinco, while being MOTW episodes, have revealed more about Angel's mindset and character than any other character on the show. Even episodes like Just Rewards and Hellbound, nominally Spike episodes, have told me more about what's going on with Angel than they did with Spike. And while Destiny seemed to deal more with the Spike side of the Spike/Angel issues, the resolution of it IMO made a much larger impact on Angel than it did on Spike. After Destiny, my main two questions about Spike are - where is he going to live, and how are they going to explain why he stays in LA? But with Angel, it's how is this going to impact Angel's conception of himself, his actions, his motivations? How is he going to react to all this, what does it mean for him?

Personally, while I don't think S5 has been compelling in that "what's going to happen next week, I can't wait?" sort of way, I think that has more to do with the lack of obvious arc than anything else. On an individual basis, and considering it independent of the structure of S4, I've been quite liking the season so far.

Well, I don't see it. All I've seen this season of Angel's story is "in semi-dark place, brooding over loss of son" and there's been a few minutes per episode of it, if that. If there's been more, it's probably been shovelled under so much incredibly UNamusing scenery-chewing crap from Spike that I haven't noticed. I want to see more of Angel. Now.

I think it is All.About.Angel, but because Angel, unlike Buffy doesn't blabber on about it all the time, it's more subtle.

I watched Dead End the other day, and realized that Angel has forgotten perhaps the most important thing he ever heard about dealing with W&H. Lindsey told him that the secret to W&H is not to let them trap you into playing by their rules; that you have to make them play by yours. In the past, Angel has done that, but this season, he has fallen squarely into the trap of playing by their rules. I'm sure I'm not the first, or the only one to notice this, but with Lindsey's return, I'm wondering if that will come back into play.

pootlus

This...



...made me LOL and scare my daughter.

I've actually found Spike somewhat less annoying and more amusing (even with the moments of scenery chawing), than I expected after last season on BtVS, so I'm taking a 'wait-and-see' on him.

I'd like to see more Angel that we've seen as well. It is supposed to be about Angel in one way or another. That's why I watch it. Teenes is right that in some way all these episodes have been about Angel's story, but it seems there's been so much less of Angel relative to previous seasons, that it looks and feels very different, at least to me.

And, as for 'DIE-EVE-DIE', that really sums up how I feel about the most glaring and obvious fly in the oinment this season. Why is she there? And more importantly, why is Lilah *not* there?



That's a pretty accurate summary, IMO - at least as compared with S2 or S4. I've enjoyed some of it, hated some of it and on balance... meh.

Well, I wouldn't go that far- I think that'd be verging on Buffy Seasons 6/7 badness. Angel, so far, while not being particularly amazing and lacking in MANY points, is still relatively enjoyable. There's continuity, there's (some) believable character interaction, there's happy snarkiness.

Anyways- high point so far was definitely Lineage. Low point: whatever that heinous werewolf episode was called. I think Season 5 is slowly progressing into the realm of betterness, so fingers crossed.

I'm in the wait-and-see camp. Plus, I don't watch a lot of TV and usually stick to one or maybe two shows at a time. I have probably too much patience when it comes to shows and I enjoy the changes; it keeps me guessing. Hey, I watched The X-Files until the end. That tells you all a lot, I'm sure.
I do have to say that S5 doesn't offer the film noir quality that drew me to Angel in the beginning. And the constant exposition makes me a little frustrated. But then again, like I said before, I sat through 2 seasons of blatant exposition (not to mention atrocious acting) on The X-Files.

ITA. It is improving and starting to address some of my issues. Lineage I was spoiled for and as someone who loves Wes I saw it as a make or break episode. And so far it's been the best of the season, IMHO. But those early episodes were dire.

I'm still hanging in, but I must say, my expectations have been lowered, especially since watching season 4 in reruns. I know that it's unlikely to ever be that good again, but I might as well enjoy the ride.

And really, even at it's goofiest (LOTP, I'm looking at you) it's still a vast improvement over the last 2 seasons of Buffy the Perpetual Martyr.

I only watched six of the first eight eps, wish I'd missed four of those, and could sum the other two up in a few sentences starting with "They weren't as bad, but..." Everything I heard pre-season sounded awful but I had faith in the writing team that did such a good job last year. Well, that's shot, this stuff is super boring and predictable -- I've yet to find anything funny, thought-provoking, or believable. So I'm content to *read* about most of the rest of the season. (Go Strega!)

I'll watch the eps in which Cordy or Connor appear (showing that I am still a glutton for punishment at heart!) but there's no way in the world I'm watching one about, say, Harmony, who shouldn't even be there in the first place. ME has broken our little social contract where I ignore the stupid things if they don't push them.

BWAH!! You are SO right! I don't know if they need a vacation or what but ME's quality has been on a downward spiral (Buffy S6 & 7 and Angel S5). What can be done? I don't want crappy eps, but I also don't want the show I loved (pre-W & H) to go away forever. *sigh*

I think I know why Lorne's been neglected! They're building up the interest for the arrival of Lorne's new boyfriend, Clem!!!!

*shriek* YES! Match made in heaven! Aww, Clem...

Hey, if he came on Angel, we'd have someone to drag Spike away to random bars so we wouldn't have to see his whiny, wrinkled face popping up all over the place for the entire duration of the episode. Pure brilliance.

I'd agree with that. As much as a step down from last season it is, and as many problems as I do have with it, I admit that I'm still fairly entertained week to week. They just need to deal with some of the issues that have plagued the early episodes.


That, I'd have to say depends on your viewpoint. Sure, there's stuff like the Shanshu prophecy, although them bringing it up exactly every two episodes is starting to bother me. It makes it feel kind of forced. Anyway, it's the little bits of week-to-week continuity that I miss. So far, with the exception of Wes' absence in "Destiny," the show has shown an absolute refusal to acknowledge the events of the previous week.

And I get the feeling that if AD hadn't needed time off, that would have been no different. I get the standalone thing, but some of it just bugs. Like Lorne. IMO, if this were S3 or S4, in the episode following "LotP" someone would have asked him how he was feeling, and he would have mentioned his nap, or whatever.

But this year? They didn't even continue anything between "Conviction" and "Just Rewards," which is the only time in the history of the show that they've used "To Be Continued...." Those two episodes literally had nothing in common save the appearance of the regular cast members. It's like considering "The House Always Wins" and "Slouching Toward Bethlehem" a two-parter. In other words, it isn't. At all.

Sorry, I didn't mean to go off on a rant like that. But like I said, I'm still finding the show fairly entertaining week to week, but they really need to back off the "Standalones or death!" stance that they've got. WB mandate or no, they could at least work in a quick reference.

Ya know when I first made this post. I thought it was spoilery but after I re-read the rules I realized that WB ep descriptions aren't spoilers. So then I went to post it here but I read the first post and it said non-spoilery stuff goes here but how is something listing the upcoming plots not spoilery in the slightest? I then decided to put it in the spec topic but I'm not speculating on it. So..I'm just going to post it here and see what happens. Warning to anyone who is so spoilerphobic they don't even watch the promos for new episodes.

The WB descriptions of the next 3 eps,ya know the stuff they put in TV Guide.

From Fraz on Media Blvd

[I'm editing out the actual blurbs and reposting them in the Speculation Topic, so please continue there. Thanks. -- Strega]

Yay Andrew's coming!!!! Maybe he'll bring Clem with him.

What? Oh Spike, Spike..you've got a lot to learn. Sigh...

Who's Brent Fletcher and has he ever written for Angel before?

I'm still stuck on:



A what?! He's a WHAT?! Jeez. What the hell? Ugh. Let's hope this is some promo spin or something, because that sounds pretty damn stupid. I like Andrew and all, but why isn't he in jail?

He's never written for the show before,he's the script coordinator. I might be sliding into off-topic territory,but that was Mere Smith's first job on Angel.

I agree it's not exactly speculation, but how about we keep discussion about future episodes in the speculation topic and restrict this to episodes in S5 that have aired? That'll make it a little easier, I think. I'll edit the topic titles a little to try and make it clearer. Thanks!

So, can you believe that Angelus had sex with Dru and Spike walked in on them?

I really didn't like that scene in Destiny because in the BtVS episode WML pt2, Spike seemed positively shocked at the idea that Dru may have boinked Angel. I know he's good at deluding himself but that seems a bit much.

...because he would then have to explain what happen to his friend "Warren and how dark Willow had killed him

I can't tell if this is a joke or not - sorry Hexlover.

I thought it was pretty clear that Angelus and Drusilla had a sexual relationship for about 20 years (1860-1880) and then on-and-off for the following 20 years. That's no short relationship, even if Darla was Angelus' primary lover.

I'm not Hexlover, but since Strega had just said "Don't talk about future episodes here!" and Hex's post is edited, I thought it was Hex's way of changing the subject. Kind of the "Angel" equivalent of, "So, how about those Yankees, huh?"

Exactly.



That's a baseball team right?

This essentially this is how I'm feeling. Angel has been more than appointment tv to me, but an investment in the characters. This season so far is so off. I miss Connor, Cordy, and Lilah.

I'm hopeful with Lindsay returning - If that finally happening how many more of my wishes can happen? I've been just sticking it out but now I have more of an excitement about where things are going.

From journeywoman's post in the 5-9 "Harm's Way" thread:


For now I'm going to continue watching, but I've been disappointed with this season. I usually watch Angel without doing anything else, but last night I gave up after 30 minutes and started working on the computer and watching Angel in the background. That's not a good sign.

I think part of the problem for me is what happened in S7 of Buffy. I'm trying to not let that interfere, but because of Buffy S7 I have little faith they'll not let ATS go down the tubes. I keep hoping it's a joke and things will change midseason (back to the old style credits as well), but I don't think so.

Word, endeavour. As I watch S5 episodes, I think well it's bad, but it's not yet, S7 BtVS bad. S5 stinks, but it hasn't tanked completely, and I'm so hoping Lindsey can fix this. But that's a lot to ask from one character.

I think that quality drops can be directly linked to Spike. When he stuck around on BTVS it withered and died and now Angel is following the same pattern.

I doubt that Lindsey will be able to do much to help, after all if Faith couldn't save BTVS what chance does Lindsey have?

HexLover, I'll try and do this without comparisons to Buffy or previous seasons or anything. It'll be fun!

Right now, the things I object to on Angel are only marginally focused on Spike. I am bothered that there is little to no real arc or overall theme of this season. I'm bothered that the MoG have very little to do in any given episode, especially relative to previous seasons. I am bothered by Cordy and Connor's absence. I have so far not liked the setting of W&H. I really don't like the fight choreographer, and am bugged by Mike Massa's leaving. I don't like that they've primarily spent their time inside, instead of doing a lot of different location shots; this makes the season feel confined and less active.

Only a few of these things have anything to do with Spike, and I'm fairly certain none of them have to do with the decline of quality on BtVS.

Thanks for clearing up what you don't like. I'll try not to assume that it's Spike related from now on.






All bad things happen because of Spike!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Word, Kalbear, 'confined and less active' is a nice S5 analysis. If this is a result of budget constraints, then TPTB really should trim some payroll (or something) because financially strapped AtS sucks.

Save money: no more camels

Kalbear, I agree with most of the things you dislike about the current season. They're the main reasons I'm unhappy with S5.

I have no problems with Spike being on AtS. Right now I'm not happy with the treatment of any of the characters. The reason I mentioned S7 Buffy was because it's made me lose faith in ME, and I'm not thrilled with JW having more involvement (if that's true) with AtS. I kept hoping they would pull it together on Buffy and it never happened. Right now I see AtS derailing in much the same way as S7 Buffy, and I just can't get my hopes up that it will get better.

Whether AtS is derailing or just a very different show now, I don't know. Either way, for me, it's not good. Although, I'm not ready to give up on it yet.

Oh, I so agree with that statment. In season 3 and 4 they were like family, fighting evil together. we knew that week after week, AI will fight some evil demon out to do harm, or will have to go up against W&H. the lines was drawn there were no middle ground. ...but now they are W&H. so...now most of the evil they are fighting, are connected to them. Since the mindwipe, they are no longer a family. they are no longer as close as they once were. all they had did, and all that they had went through, especially in season 4 ..never happen, or rather not the way they remember it. I miss Cordy she is the only one who wasn't afraid to stand up to Angel. the show is clearly missing that. I miss Connor. I would love to find out what actually happen to him. but the biggest question is Why did angel trust W&H? what reason was given to the fang gang for Cordy being in a coma? I know they remember Jasmine, but do they remember how she came about?

I agree that the drop in quality can be attributed to a large number of things. I wouldn't mind Spike at all if they were putting his character to good use and balancing his stuff with the rest of the cast's.

I have to say something about the episode titles that we're geting into now. I know it's not actually S5 'so far,' but it's not speculation so much as me complaining about available information. Basically, the virtually sitcom-esque episode titles bother me. The first part of the season did fine, with mostly dramatic titles. But now we've got two pun titles in a row ("Harm's Way" and next week's "Soul Purpose" - why couldn't they have just left it as "Deus Ex Machina"?).

Then there's "Damage," which is fine, but the 100th ep is called "You're Welcome." If I were more bitter, I might think that's actually a dig at CC. But I'll wait till I see the episode. And then "Why We Fight"? "Smile Time"? Ack.