Just re-watched Loyalty, and I was once again struck by the awesomeness of AD's performance. He's so subtle sometimes, like when Fred throws that curveball of "You should go out with Aubrey," he just barely shifts his expression to let us know that he's thinking "What the HELL?" It really is a tragedy that he's being so limited this season.

Yeah. Season 3 Wes is so amazingly layered and complex, and I hate that Season 5 Wes feels more like a recurring background character. AD is still playing him amazingly, but his storyline and all of the questions surrounding him and the mind-wipe have been forgotten in all the flash and glamour of this season.

I still have hope for Wes as there are so many things the writers can do with him, not the least being his close connections to Connor and the unraveling of the mind-wipe. In the meantime, I can watch season 3 and remember when.

"Loyalty" still stands as my all-time favorite AtS episode. The ending scene with him and Angel where Wes breaks down laughing was just so tragic and scary. AD just did such a great job bringing out all of Wes' conflicting emotions throughout the episode. Other favorite moments include Wes breaking into Holtz's hideout, his tagging Aubrey as a spy, and his hilarious (in a way that only AtS can achieve) showdown with the Loa Burger. Still stands as one of the greatest performances on any ME show.

I feel the same way. The only thing that I am holding on to for hope that this will change is that brief shot of Wes after Angel's slip-up in CToNC. It was very deliberate and it showed Wes thinking about what Angel said even after he affectively changed the subject. That was Bell 's episode too, he's practically the showrunner for this year so I think/hope that shot will come to fruition with a juicy Wes-discovering-the-mindwipe story.

Hmmm... from tonight's episode- its sad to think that some people in the W&H office think Wes is gay. Although I'm sure many fanfic writers are quite pleased.

I would be oh-so sad if Wes were gay... Although, given his relationship with Lilah, I think it's safe to say he isn't. I wonder how that rumour didn't reach their ears, even with the whole place being cleaned out last season.

I remember when I first start watching AtS in mid-season three, I thought Wes was gay. Well until the whole Lilah thing. MmmmWeslah.

So I was amused by that last night.

It annoyed me that we heard more about Wes than actually saw him. I really really hope this is because he's going to get a major plot line at the end of the season what with unraveling the mindwipe and everything.

Right? Right? Please?



I got the feeling that they were both pretty discreet about it, and that the only reason the MoG all found out was that Angel smelled it and Angelus spilled it.

Then again, Lilah chopped her boss' head off when he asked her to call it off. Maybe the steno pool thought it was a different Mr. Wyndem-Pryce.

I absolutely think Wes has something big coming. "Lineage" was all foreshadowing, imo. It harkened back to "Loyalty"/"Sleep Tight," but it's looking to the future, too.

Wesley's character has been made wonderfully complex, and ME would be fools to squander the build-up they've put into him.

ITA, but with ME's track record so far this season (read: their Spike obsession), I'm starting to fear for the poor guy. Here's hoping he at least gets a good storyline sometime soon. Don't just toss a great character like this overboard, ME!

My most recent thought on the Wes-boy: He's so underappreciated right now.

Spike joins the show and is told to shut up for, what, half a season so far? Whereas Wes has slaved for about about 4 whole seasons, earning each and every "Shut up, Wesley" that Strega chose to give him, and who gets a T-Shirt?

Spike. Spike gets the T-Shirt. Come on! I love both the characters, but Wesley deserves one. But then, nowadays, he's hardly on screen enough for even one "shut up." Telling him to shut up now would just cut off his air supply. Which would be bad.

Of course, it may have just been easier to put a pair of plastic teeth on a shirt, rather than something that symbolizes Wesley. What symbolizes Wesley? If Strega had her say, could THAT actually be put on a shirt?

If I could put any message on a shirt, it would probably be something like "Stay on topic."

My honest and sincere apologies. I didn't mean to break topic, dunno what I was thinking. Won't happen again... in fact, I'll take the opportunity to bow out gracefully now.

Honestly, very sorry.

*blushes insanely, and runs*

This was on on the Angel and the Media thread.

In particular, Alexis Denisof:



So does this mean...could it mean, that Wes has a plot this season?

Hope swells anew in the breast of roguetamlin!

OTOH, I like Scruffy Wes.

You know what I'm waiting for? This Wes's reaction to learning about ScruffyDarkWes. And not just showing him remembering everything, although I think AD could sell it well, I would like to see his reaction to hearing about it first and then being shown it, like on a big screen. Watching him see his life playing out in front of him, I am very interested to see what this Wes would think about all that. I'm sure he would rationalize it, but I want to see the immediate shock and disbelief. Ahh, that would be awesome.

Even better? Season 2 Wes learning about Season 4 Wes. I'd pay money to see that. Hey, it could happen; ME is playing around with the space-time continuum.

I'm getting a little annoyed at the continuing deconstruction of Wes.

It seems to me that the other characters lack a real reason to be on the show, or, in the case of Gunn, they've been re-purposed. So, to provide them with a rationale for why they're useful, everything Wesley could do is being devolved to others.

Thus we see Fred constantly hogging the spotlight when it comes to analyzing anything and everything. And Lorne (as seen last night) can come up with demonic resources (which, admittedly, he has sometimes done in the past, so this is not exactly new). And Gunn gets to have all of the big ideas and has connections to the Dark Side and is apparently the man of action when it comes to getting any scheme rolling.

So Wesley is no longer the guy that contributes the actual correct theory--he's usually the one who spouts out the wrong one so that Gunn can smack him down. He's no longer the one who recognizes the various artifacts--that's Fred's role now. He can't even round up local netherworld contacts, because Lorne's already got a network.

I look for him to be supplanted shortly by Harmony.

Hopefully this will set up a major storyline for Wes. He's no longer useful. He has a lot of free time. He may accidentally come across the real reason why the MoG took over W&H?

I believe the Wes will rise again.

I think this season, for him, is about deciding who he can and cannot trust. On the 'not' list are his father, Gunn, Eve, and likely Angel. The 'trust' list is much shorter: himself. Fred's on a third, irrational list of confusing emotions and desire.

Rather than being the research and answer guy, Wesley is having to be the introspective guy and the guy who is scheming offstage. I think something interesting will come of that.

I'm with Argonaut. Other people taking his traditional role with the team has been affecting him all season. Combined this with his isolation from Fred, and I think we have the makings for some great story potential. One role that hasn't been taken (oddly enough) is his role as Angel's confidante. When Angel was doubting himself in "Numero Cinco," it was Wes that he turned to. Even with all of the betrayal in their past (or possibly because of it), the two of them still have a bond that's been hard for them to break. I'm both intrigued and a little worried about Wes' willingness to take over in "Soul Purpose." Worried because I don't want their friendship to be destroyed again, and intrigued because I think it's planting the seeds for a great Wes-centric story.

Well, the only thing that'll get me back to watching the show full time is if Wes starts getting some real plot. Otherwise, it's reading the spoilers and recaps for me unless when the episode is Wes-centric. I personally loathe the way the writers borrow some of Wes' qualities and use it on other characters this season.

How great was it to see AD and CC back together again acting as great friends? They had so many classic moments together last night. I loved when Wes called her "really hot," and said that he should never again say "Kickin' it old school." It just showed that no matter how much their relationship changed over the years, the two of them really cared about each other. Here's hoping we'll get some on-camera Wes grief over Cordelia's loss.

Also, I'm thinking Wes is going to figure out the mindwipe thing. Cordy dropped too many hints to him. The Wes I know won't just let those slide, he's going to do some investigating. The writers have to let this happen - it would make such a great story! One last note, did anyone else notice how S2 Wes looked and acted last night. Right down to dorky comments and the clean shave. Do you think this was just part of the overall nostalgic feel, or is it more story related?

I noticed Wes's season 2 demeanor as well, but only when he was around Cordy (::sniffle::). The thing that kinda bothered me though, was when Conner's name was mentioned, Wes didn't seem to put much thought into it. No one who was out of the loop did. They were all just, "Conner, who's that? Whatever... back to work." I mean is part of the enchantment that you forget about even the slightest mentioning of him? I would have expected Wes to inquire about this, or even show some sort of vague interest. Oh well, it was nice to see Wes smiling again though. And the "Kickin' it old-school" line cracked my shit up.

IMO, the Wes/Cordy interaction was the most touching part of this episode - they were sweetly awkward, sincere, and funny, and with them talking about Lilah and all...*sniff*

AD was amazing, I thought he hit some subtle notes in his discussion with Cordy about the past... not to mention when he was doing his little spell he looked damn fine. Rar.




Yah WWPrice The Man, I'm hoping he will too. That would be fantastic, and open things up for lots of drama, heartache and raw emotions =) Yay!

I totally agree. Wesley and Cordy had some of the best chemestry on the show. None of the forced sexual tension present in all the other male/female pairings. The just played so well off each other. I'm sad that we'll never see that again.

Well, yeah, Jaded Kismet, I always liked that they had had their moment of sexual interest, realized that it wasn't for them and never went back sans handwringing. They were friends, not just friends, but friends in the best sense of the term. Wesley looked so so happy, and that Cordy cleared the air betweem them gives me such a wonderful sense of closure on the two of them.

Bumping to say, God damn I'm gonna miss Wesley. One of the most complex, intriguing characters ever written. To quote one of my favorite characters of all time, "I think I have something in my eye."

I wanna make sure I say this before leavig this boards. I think this was an amazing character, certainly one of the two characters that kept me watching this show, and its sad that his journey wont continue. AD is an incredibly talented actor and I hope he finds another job soon.

Oh, cruel fate! To rip Wes away from me...

Light, I'm going to miss seeing him develop... Sniff...

Interestingly, I've seen Alexis Denisoff mentioned as a possible replacement for Pierce Brosnan as 007 when he finishes his tenure. This is still just whisperings on British boards, but it seems that AD is better known across the pond, so who knows? It could happen.

I too will miss Wes more than any other AtS character - after all, he's my favorite character in any of Joss' shows. It's sad to see his journey end, especially on a year where he hasn't received as much spotlight in comparisons to Season 3-4. I'm hoping that he receives some nice closure, and lives to see another day.

Oh my God, please don't even vaguely insinuate that Wes might not live to see another day! That would just destroy me. ::sniffle::

If AD continues to do work on television, I really hope it's on a show that I already like, or one that I will like. If I have to start watching something crappy just to get my AD fix... Dammit! Thank you for throwing my whole world askew WB!

It's just NOT FAIR!!! ::stomps away to go pout in corner::

Need, need, NEED a Wes spin-off or something. Yeah, he can be a buffoon, but I still lurve him anyway.

If they kill him off, so help me... Trails off into incoherent, threatening muttering

I think Wesley's the only character (that's still on the show) that I'm going to miss. I was hoping we'd get a nice Wes-centric arc, too. Sigh.

Having read these last few posts, I am this close to crying *sniff* and I'm at work so that's no good.

I think AD did the best job acting as well, he was serious without being heavy-handed, and he showed a lot of emotion without being sappy or effete. The man rocks...and he better show up on something else in a short time, lest I go through withdrawal.
And Wesley is, IMO, one of the deepest, richest characters that I've seen on AtS and BtVS - he started his journey as a bumbling not-quite-competent, and has since grown into an amazing character with humor, compassion, and a noble sense of right (not to mention good looks)... I.heart.Wes!

That's what hits me most about this cancellation.... the no Wes thing. It's just scary thinking I won't get to look forward to another year of AD and the writers testing the limits of greatness with a character.

Major fucking WORD to a Wes spinoff. Come on, Tru Calling is pretty much guaranteed to get cancelled after this season, bring ED and some extraneous folks = Wes and Faith on the road to redemption. I know it won't happen, but it's a very nice dream.

Getting back to the topic. Man, I'm really going to miss Wes and if Joss kills him a la Anya just to prove it was a big battle and all that I will be severely pissed off. He better not kill him off at all, not with Alexis seemingly willing to continue with the character in TV movies or whatever, but if Joss does it'll be perhaps one of the significant deaths in either series and he better treat it as such.

oh.. what am I saying? Isn't Bell writing the finale? Damn, this is gonna be good.

That's my dream too. A Wes/Faith show will seriously rock my world. If only Tru Calling was cancelled at the same time as Angel did....

Anyway, I also agree that there'll be some angry letters flying to Joss' forehead should he decide to do that stupid 'it's the end of the show so let's kill some important character so we know it's the finale' *groan*. Where's the originality in that these days?

Hmmm, I think I'm in the minority here, but is anyone else not liking the turtleneck-age? I much prefer him in a nice button-down shirt. But then again, maybe they're covering his neck for a reason (cough scar reappearing cough)...

I was hoping the same thing. And yes, I'm not liking the turtlenecks and prefer Wes scruffy.

The thing about *most* of his button-down shirts, is that they're really ill-fitting. They almost always seem much too large for AD's frame. One dead giveaway, is when the seam on the shoulder area is hanging well down the arm. It makes him look frumpy. And maybe that's their intention. Sometimes, and it's rare, but sometimes I see one that fits him well. And when I do, I'd have to agree that the man looks damn fine in them.

I'm patiently awaiting the beards return. No one works a 5 o'clock shadow quite like AD.

The turtleneck made him look like a mime. Not! Sexy!

I prefer him shirtless, but I'd take the button-down shirts over the turtleneck any day. Frumpy is more attractive than mime.

Oh, and I hate the big coat.

Dark!Wes and the gun! Yay! Top form =)

And AD was working the broody heartbroken thing so well...

As for his clothes, I think he works the turtlenecks quite well. "Bookman" as he is, it would be weird if he was all perfectly dressed or foppish. His ill-fitting shirts lend him that air of "I need someone to take care of me"... which coupled with the beloved scruffy look = Rar!

In light of the latest shooting incident, one thought occurred to me.

Does anyone think Wes might be a sociopath?

Don't get me wrong - Wes is probably my favorite character in the whole Joss-verse - but he seems to fit the mold. I know he loves Fred and all, but shooting his father and shooting some flunky don't really say love the way opening a car door does.

Seriously, if you assume that Wes has a hard time accepting other people's feelings as real and has a fair chunk of self-hatred, you can explain his self-centered solutions in S3 and Lineage, his massive ego, his s/m love affairs, and his willingness to shoot other people when provoked.

Any thoughts

Maybe Wes is just so repressed from he was a young, stupid, naive watcher that when he goes dark, he goes really dark.

He definately has some twisted ways of showing love. It's probably best that his relationship with Fred didn't last that long.

Well he does fit the diagnosis quite well. I googled for the usual symptoms and they are:

not learning from experience
no sense of responsibility
inability to form meaningful relationships
inability to control impulses
lack of moral sense
chronically antisocial behavior
no change in behavior after punishment
emotional immaturity
lack of guilt
self-centeredness

Then: There are many theories about the cause of Antisocial Personality
Disorder including experiencing neglectful parenting as a child, low
levels of certain neurotransmitters in the brain, and belief that
antisocial behavior is justified because of difficult circumstances.

I think that he's one scary man now. I completely bought his shooting the employee, and he's actually scarier now than he was when he was dark!Wes last season.

Now he looks and functions with the others on the surface. Underneath that surface is an unpredictable violent man with seemingly no regard for the suffering of others.

There's something incredibly chilling about that. It will be -very- interesting to see how he'll react in the next episode. I mean he seems to have completely snapped in this one and it can only get worse.

I was blown away by AD's performance last night. It was amazing. He played anger and sadness and guilt all so well in one episode.

Is Wes a sociopath? I don't think so. I just think that he has been waiting so long to be with Fred, and now, not a week later, she's dying right in front of him. He's probably really, really upset. If my SO was dying or something, I would've killed more than one person by then.



There's nothing like a sexy, scruffy Wesley to make my day bright. Bring back the beards!

I don't think Wes is a sociopath. His reaction to what he did in "Billy" shows he's big with the guilt when he's certain he's done something wrong. The problem is that it's hard to make him certain, because Wes isn't very good at thinking in shades of grey. He has a terrible time admitting that what seemed to him like the only right action given the information he had at the time (e.g. stealing Connor) actually wasn't. Likewise, I think he has a hard time accepting the fact that actions can be moral in the larger scheme of things and yet cause a lot of pain and suffering. Because he shuts his eyes to evidence that contradicts his vision of the good, he can seem cold and amoral, as in the shooting of his "father." But he was doing good-- saving Fred-- and he focused on that.

It reminds me of the philosopher William Godwin, who notoriously said that if he were given the choice between saving his mother from a fire and saving some sort of political leader who could do good to the whole nation (say, Martin Luther King or somebody like that), he would save the politician and let his mother die. To most of us that feels like a cold, inhuman attitude. But sociopathic? I don't think so, because it shows a desire to do good without letting one's personal affinities get in the way.

The danger of a person like Godwin or Wes is that they might lose touch with both their humanity and a sound notion of what's good in the abstract. And once this happens, they aren't going to be able to take their cue from the people around them, because they're used to relying solely on their own judgments. This is what I think might just be happening to Wes as we see him kneecapping an employee who's less than enthusiastic about the Fred-saving mission. It seems to me that Wes has begun responding all too quickly and unthinkingly with violence, as if he's no longer bothering to make moral judgments-- just assumes that if it feels right to him, it must be. If I thought that wounding that guy was a calculated Machiavellian move-- "making an example" of him, as others in the ep thread have suggested, in order to get the other employees in line-- I would have more confidence in Wes. But I would still think that his moral compass is going wonky, which is dangerous in a person who relies so heavily on it.

(But I'm the person who doesn't even think Connor was a sociopath-- until the end-- so take what I say with a grain of salt...)

Wes is all about the guilt. Over taking Connor, letting his father down, um, hmmm, running out of my long list pretty quickly here. Lemme ponder this one.

I think if he's scarier now it's because he hasn't had the build up from S2 on. Granted that growth has occurred whether he remembers it or not, but as far as he can see, he's doing it because he loves Fred. Somone who puts no boundaries on what he's willing to do for the object of his affection is damn scary.

I've never been a fan of pairing Wesley with Fred. But last night fed into a theory I have about Wesley's feelings for her. I think that Fred is the embodiment of who Wesley believes he should love. She's very intelligent, he doesn't have to hide the "things that go bump in the night" from her and she's a capable fighter who gives off a "litttle girl lost" vibe that Wes feels he can still protect from all the bad things in the world. Now that he's found her, he's not going to let go.

Wesley's bad decisions in the past were made for the greater good, from his perspective. Now they're being made for the good of himself and the girl he cares about. If bad things came about before, I can't imagine what's to come.

ITA SurlyBooty - Wes is all about guilt...I think it plays in with the whole idea of redemption. Wes keeps messing up, even though he's trying to do righteously. Kind of parallels with Angel's quest for redemption for past evils, but a little more conflicted, cause he's human and knows that everything he's done wrong is his fault and cant be blamed on a demon or anything supernatural.

And Word Millamant to your entire post! I don't think he's a sociopath. Especially since one of the symptoms is "lack of moral sense" - if anything, Wes has too much moral sense...he's always tried to do what is "right" and "good" - but despite the knowledge, he constantly finds himself and his actions on the opposite side of his ideals (or somewhere in the middle). And I think that having that keep happening is whats making him "crazy" (Sexy!Crazy!Wes, hee). And as someone else mentioned, he does have a lot of past issues with repression, family life, Watcher failure, etc. The man's been known to just go do things in frustration before (rogue demon hunter, Justine, Connor), so this is just more of his agony...when he tries to do right, things just dont work out, but he cant just all out go evil, so he does what he can...to him at least, what he's doing is "A sane response to an insane world."

Anyone else think our man is going to die soon? I'm not spoiled so I have no clue, but I can see him going out in redemptive glory or something along those lines.

You guys are completely right with the guilt thing and big fat word jake42dream on how Fred is what Wesley thinks he should love. She's the embodiment of what he thinks makes the world fighting for.

However he seems to be able to get rid of guilt when his actions are geared to a higher goal (saving Fred, saving Angel etc.). That goes all the way back to season 1 when he hurt the guy in The Ring.

Wesley is capable of almost anything if he's convinced that he's doing it for the greater good. He's ruthless and he's proven that many times. That makes him a very dangerous man. I mean he kept Justine bound and gagged in his closet for a summer and he had so much power over her that he didnt -need- to keep her tied up on the boat.

Anyway now that he has redefined the greater good into being the greater good for himself and Fred, he's more dangerous than ever. I was also chilled at how much he's the Wolfram and Hart boss. He would have fit right in with season 2 W&H. Lilah would probably be proud of him now.

I can't wait to see the next episode. Also just for the record, Wesley is my favourite character in the buffyverse, followed closely by Angel himself. Wes' journey is facinating and I love dark characters.