From the Twilight thread:

God I hope so keckler.

Anyway, thought I'd bump this so the Vulcan physiology discussion could continue here.

Did a little google search and found this:


No canon citation on the page. At first I thought it was safe to assume the author of this site wouldn't make stuff up. But then I read further down the page:


Why do I think TOS never dealt with that subject?

So maybe when T'Pol gets shot in the center of her chest in "Twilight", it actually hits her lungs.

Wow, I have never actually snorted a drink through my nose while reading TWoP until now.

I do recall vaguely from TOS that the Vulcan heart is further down, where our liver is.

Yeah, I remember McCoy saying in one episode, "It really gets you right here" and puts his fist on his heart. Then, looking at Spock, says "Or in your case, somewhere around here." and puts his fist over his liver. Spock's comeback is pretty good, something like "The fact that the arrangement of my internal organs differs from yours is of some comfort to me." [/paraphrase]

Can't remember the specific episode off hand. I think the scene was near the end of the episode, and McCoy was on the bridge, wearing the shiny scrub shirt.

I read about the Vulcan fecal pellets in the Starfleet Medical Reference Guide that was published in the 70s. It had similar comments about urine that would make me owe several people new keyboards if I passed them along.

I'm not really familiar with TOS, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that the different location of Spock's heart comes in handy in an episode when someone listens for a heartbeat in his chest and hears none.
Apologies if this info is incomplete or even erroneous. :)

Considering that you can feel a pulse almost anywhere, that doesn't make much sense.

It could make sense if it were in the episode where Spock had Nurse Chapel slap him silly to revive him from his comatose, slow-metabolism healing process. Maybe they couldn't find a pulse when he was in that state.

In "The Omega Glory" Captain Tracey claims that Spock has no heart, knowing that the Yangs will listen to his chest, which they do, and not hear a beat. It was all part of his argument that Spock was an agent of Satan.

So, it came in handy for Captain Tracey, not so much for Spock.

From the Sex&Love thread:

So what do we know about Vulcan sexuality and mating? As some of you have caught on, I'm a fan of the idea that Sarek is a big ol' horny bastage since he married a Human. Logically, he'd just have to give it up since she'd have "needs". Are they the only Vulcan/Human couple we meet besides that scientist Vulcan and her Human husband in the Crusher-hosts-a-science-party episode? I don't feel like we really learned much from either Tuvok or the other guy on Voyager. It was implied that Saavik and YoungSpock did it on Genesis. What else? I feel like it's wide open for the writers to play with however they please.

I agree. I am of the opinion that the fact that Vulcan males HAVE to mate every seven years doesn't mean that they don't do it other times as well. And there hasn't been a lot of exposition at all about Vulcan females, so it's silly for the fanboys to be outraged by T'Pol having what amounts to casual sex. It's probably not routine for a Vulcan female to behave that way, but it's also not routine for a Vulcan to live among humans 24/7, so it's not unreasonable that she would behave somewhat differently than she would if she were on a Vulcan ship.

I recall Tuvok hinting that he was perfectly well capable of doing it more often. I'd say that it's the cultural rules that say that you don't do it except when you have to-- since it wouldn't be logical to do so.

In the "Azati Prime" thread, I said:

To which Jeebus responded:

I know and I agree. I was just being snarky. It amuses me to think of Spock being all "I have no emotions, Captain," on the bridge, but then he goes back to his quarters and sobs for half an hour, "Dr. McCoy hates me, he keeps yelling at me."

In the Forgotten ep thread, Kris_AB posted at length about Vulcans, starting with this:



Why should they be portrayed exactly the same as every other sentient species? They aren't the same. They're Vulcans. Bermaga deliberately chose to have a Vulcan in the crew- if they weren't going to portray her as a Vulcan, they should have made her an Andorian or an Orion or... anything else. Through excellent acting, I was always able to connect and relate, on some level, with both Spock and Tuvok- the actors were both able (to differing degrees) to express complex reactions and displays of muted emotion with simple gestures, facial expressions, and line readings.

However, in the rest of the original post, I think Kris expressed beautifully something that I hadn't considered- that Bermaga may, in fact, be responding to what they think viewers want. For example, it seems to me that the majority of Tuvok-centered episodes were about him losing control in one way or another. Maybe there is a large contingent of the fanbase that doesn't care for Vulcans as previous established (which seems unlikely, considering how popular the Spock character remains) and want to see them fundamentally changed to be more human.

However, I'm not among them. I think that the Vulcan culture is fascinating. Moreover, I think that if a character is a Vulcan, she should act like a Vulcan.

Spock lost control plenty of times too. In fact, that might be an essential aspect to Vulcans- the boiling under the surface barely held in control.

I don't dislike the T'Pol addiction storyline. In fact, I am anticipating how JB will portray her recovery. However, I feel the same way lis, I DO want her to recover and return to her to being a real Vulcan.

I haven't seen all the TOS episodes but my impression is that the out of control episodes were aberrations. They meant more because Spock was normally so emotionless. T'Pol has been falling apart too often for it to have any impact. It's not shocking anymore.

I agree with skye on the possibilities of her recovery and I also hope that she returns to her former in control state. My main problem with this storyline is her reasoning behind the addiction (helped by the hypothesis that she was addicted during her first encounter with the T-D).

I'll go a bit further and note that all of the Vulcan out of control episodes are set up as aberrations, if for no other reason than their culture can only consider them as such. Spock always had the human part of him either making him overcompensate or lose control. One episode of Voyager ("Gravity") described how Tuvok needed additional (perhaps seen as remedial) instruction in control when he was in his teens. I also think, given his interactions with Suder, that he likes violence a bit (though he's ashamed of that). Others have discussed T'Pol's situation more effectively than I could, but I will say that before this season I'd never seen any hints that things were barely in control with T'Pol.

Okay, Vulcans are trained from childhood to control emotions -- to the point of seeming to outsiders as if they have none. Still, wouldn't there be personality differences among them? Wouldn't some be slightly more emotional/less rational than others? We have examples of those who broke away in search of a different way of life (the mind-rapist, for example, and Spock's brother, and the Bruce Davison character T'Pol was supposed to track down -- sorry, I don't remember episode titles). And wouldn't other Vulcans find it a bit odd that Sarek was so attracted to human women that he married two of them? He even teased with Amanda a bit in TOS. It was pointed out that Spock was even more rigid than most because he felt the need to overcome the stigma of being half human.

T'Pol's slightly more emotional characterization doesn't bother me, but I do sigh at how often she's put into the traumatic situations that cause her to overreact (hated the episode where she became HornyVulcan, for example). Whoever called her the Lifetime Channel Vulcan on another thread -- that was genius, and sadly, too apt.

I think it's appropriate: We have someone here from a cloistered society that practically forbids contact with other cultures. She even lived in the Bay Area (I forget where) for years without really going out. And now, she's thrown into a crew on an isolated ship- which is stressful for anyone. And she's the first to do so, with no one to advise her. We see this with people right here on Earth in 2004- they get lost, do all sorts of stuff.

Add to that that we know T'Pol had a "bad" side all along- thinking about her great-grandmother, for example, or the whole Intelligence thing.

How this relates to Vulcans on other series (DS9, VOY) having their issues, though, is a bit difficult, but not impossible, to explain.

Wasn't there something about how, before T'Pol, the previous record holder for "Vulcan serving on a human ship" was eight days?

It's what REALLY happens when Vulcans meditate...but it's all internalized, and cloaked in ritual and ceremony.

From Impulse:

Vulcans are liars. That's what I've learned. I refuse to buy into their holier-than-thou, emotions-are-for-losers stance any longer. I am sick and tired of seeing Vulcans, from Captain Solok the pompous ass to Chu'lak the murdering psychopath, using logic as their excuse for everything. They are viciously emotional. They are simply good at rationalizing the decisions they make, pretending they came about those results using cold hard facts instead of being swayed by their emotions. Like pride.

Having T'Pol come out and admit that she was curious and wanted to play with emotions is new. And I like it dammit. If she had claimed that she was trying to develop a tolerance to TrD, I would have shouted, "Liar!" Like I do almost any time any Vulcan says any thing. Sure, she's not acting like a proper Vulcan but so what? I've had enough of them by now. Let's see a beatnik Vulcan. Get to know a hippie Vulcan. I'm ready for a deeper exploration of what Vulcans are really like. And not just the super-famous politicians.

Exhibit A: T'Pring.

Allow me to clarify something (since the second of the two quotes above is mine). My objection to the use of a Vulcan has very little to do with their supposed logical approach but rather that transforming the Vulcan Female into the Emotional Female is cheap and demeaning. I like Trip’s and T’Pol’s chemistry together but to have that be due to Trel’D poisoning is just too easy. I agree with belsum that Vulcans are amazing at rationalising and that they’re bloody arrogant but I still prefer them, well, Vulcan if the best excuse is (gasp!) drugs.

Okuda had an interesting commentary running through WOK and his comment on whether or not Vulcans lie was something along the lines of "it's only Vulcans who have made that claim, so you decide." I thought that was an awesome way to deal with it.

Spock has no brother. That movie never happened.

No, it didn't.

I can't hear you! Lalalalalalalalaaaa!!

Heh. I like that.


The entire ceremony was illogical! How exactly is it for the greater good to have people regularly killing each other when they want to break off an engagement? For that matter, I just don't see anything logical about the complicated rituals, overly ornate costumes, or convoluted props involved in Vulcan mysticism either.

In some ways the very concept of mysticism is illogical.

Most ways, Silja. But, as Her Royal Kecklerness would say, get back on topic.

For Vulcan's, I wonder if it isn't more an homage to their past and a continuation of their culture. While it may not be absolutely logical, it maintains their heritage and history.

I'm not familiar with the Vulcan "belief" (ie mysticism) system (bad Trekker, bad!), but I can believe that they realize that there are unexplainable events. Surely, as logical creatures, they have to realize that some things defy logic. To deny that would be, er, illogical. Not to mention, although they suppress emotion, it can't be too harmful to have reminders, if only to serve as a balance to all their logic.

I don't think so. Everything is logical. Things only seem illogical when the logic of an event has a root in a piece of information unknown to you.

Like, humans may make decisions based on emotion, but once you understand the sources and interactions of those emotions, there is a logic to it.

Well, but I'd think that if the Vulcans needed to be reminded of the bad old days, all they need to do is look at the Andorians.

Thank you for explaining it a little clearer than I, cleo. Accepting a lack of information and still embracing the event or outcome seems on par with Vulcan logic to me.

(Considering all the cold medication I've taken today, I probably shouldn't have embarked on this topic!)

I've been wondering... We know that Vulcans have telepathic abilities -- mindmelding, Tuvok helping Kes with her telepathic abilities, etc., but to what extent? And is there any truth to what seems (in fanfictions anyway) a commonly held belief that Vulcans form some sort of permanent telepathic bond with each other when they mate? And if they do, wouldn't that be really annoying for them?

Then Tuvok should have been able to communicate with his wife, and he clearly couldn't.

I wonder if there's any fanwanking about possible scientific explanations for mind powers. After all, our mindwaves don't travel through the air, or our fingertips.

The "psychic bond" was something that only came up on TOS, I think. Spock went all Obi-Wan when the Vulcan-crewed ship was destroyed at the beginning of "The Immunity Syndrome," and went savage when driven back in time in "All Our Yesterdays." Since then, the psychic link seems to have been dropped.

Spock also talks about the psychic link he seems to have with that bitch T'Pring.

But in Spock's time, clearly Vulcans have accepted mind melding, whereas, in Enterprise time, T'Pol was practically shunned for being part of a mind meld.

Does Spock ever explain how their psychic link was formed?

In this case, I wouldn't mind if they ignored TOS and dropped it, because God help us all if they ever try to do something like that with T'Pol. Isn't it enough that she's already a CRACK WHORE? We don't need her going around reading anyone's mind.

Hee. I feel you, pennyq. However, I do believe that there is an acknowledged disconnect between Spock of TOS and T'Pol's Pa'nar Syndrome in Enterprise. And by "acknowledged," I mean that we, the viewers, acknowledge it but the writers haven't explained where the two ideas meet.

They haven't explained the mind-melding Neutral Zone, so to speak.

I don't think it would violate canon to suggest that the spousal bond exists but is limited and may have some distance constraints. Tuvok may not have been able to communicate with his wife, per se, but perhaps he was always vaguely aware that she was still alive, and vice versa. I'm fanwanking here, of course, but I can imagine that Mrs. Tuvok would have remained convinced that the VOY crew was alive when others would have given them up for dead.

Is the speed of thought faster than Warp 9?

Not to mention that tantrum-prone V'ger. Who isn't even a Vulcan, punctuation aside.

The real question is: is the mind-medling Neutral Zone a sphere?

On the other hand, maybe the psychic-bond is what makes all the ENT-era Vulcans so snitty. They can't get rid of this bond, which is of great shame to them, so they take it out on the poor humans...

I have a couple of questions. Why do Vulcans all have really bad hair cuts? Where's the logic in that?

Also, why do so many Vulcans look really unwell? They tent to have this tinge to their skin. Look at Take Me Out to the Holosuite and Field of Fire from DS9, or T'Pol's allies in rescuing Forrest in Mirror Darkly part 1. Compare to Spock, Tuvok, T'Pol and Soval. They all look pretty much normal.

I thought the tinge to Vulcan skin was because they have green blood. I seem to remember that Vulcan blood is copper-based rather than iron-based like humans', hence its greenness, although of course I may have imagined that.

Shhhhhh! They may hear you and decide we need a whole movie to explain this make-up change!

EM, you are quite correct. I know that whenever Tuvok or T'Pol bleed, it's green. Also, when they get sick, they have a different color than humans. I'm not sure if they were so careful about Spock. But T'Pol definitely has the dark makeup.

I think Spock does have a bit of a greenish pallor about him, but I'm not sure if that's just Leonard Nimoy's natural colouring.

I understand that, EnglishMuffin. I just don't get why it's only for guests/extras.