Yeah, but I think of that as more classist than racist; the guy didn't come from a wealthy family, and wasn't he the son of the help or in some menial job?

Charles gleefully helped give it to the racist colonel.

Okay, greetings all...from a lurker for two days now (just getting to read the thread). I must right off say 2 things. First, I have always loved MASH, both new and old (although as I have aged, I find the sophomoric humor of the early seasons less appealing and the drama of the later seasons more so.

Second, it was only after reading this thread that I discovered AS wrote for both MASH and Sports Night! View the thread there as I have become a regular poster! Just goes to show how truly great writing can transcend themes. For those of you who haven't yet, check out the series on DVD...for $40, it's a steal!

Okay, now to my own commentary. I have always had a taste for classical music, so I personally like Charles and the contributions he's made to the show. Additionally, having been a former pianist (hobby only, and finding myself cut from doing that due to a surgery) the one ep that keeps getting repeated upthread is my personal favorite. At the end of the party when he comments "Each of us must dance to his own tune"...I literally tear up every time.

The "Sherman...T...Potter" cracks me up every time. The ep where Henry dies...bawling! The grand finale....laugh, cry, bawl, sigh...it's all there. I'll contribute more later, but I see long posts are frowned on here. :-)

I actually like a lot of the earlier seasons - partly because I haven't seen them as often in reruns as the later seasons. As you may have seen from reading through the thread, my personal rule is that if it's a pre-BJ moustache episode, then I'm usually content to watch it. If he's got the moustache, then I get a bit leery - I think that the show got out of balance eventually.

I can see how the early episodes can be less appealing, though. As with many shows, it took a little while for the show to find its "voice", and both the Henry and Frank characters got to be a little too one-dimensional. Some of the time they portrayed Henry as a helpless buffoon - at other times, he was just shown more like an ordinary midwestern doctor who was thrust into a leadership position in a chaotic situation, and who was simply weary from it. I much preferred the latter to the former.


As have I, although certainly not exclusively. The parallels are getting a little scary at this point...


Once Frank left, they had to find a new voice to bring to the show, and they hit a home run with Charles, for the reasons that have been recently discussed in this thread.


This episode of MASH and the original Brian's Song movie are the two times when guys are officially allowed to tear up from watching TV.

Network TV, okay, but a few movies out there get to me....The Green Mile for one as I am currently in a drama frame of mind. In the sports vein, A League of Their Own was a cool one too (Tom Hanks rocks), and for the comic cry (the one where you laugh so hard you cry) I will have to reserve judgement while I ponder that one.

Another thing I liked about Charles was the first hint that he would be different than Frank with the snake in the bed and his line immediately following:

"Please.....Mozart."

I also like his speech to Radar and Potter when he first finds he might be staying...

"My voice shall be heard from this wilderness and I shall be delivered from this fetid and festering sewer!"

The smirk he gives afterward is priceless!

Yes! That's the one!

The smirk was just the icing on the cake.

Wonderful scene! I love it when someone actually gets one over on Hawkeye and whichever cohort he's with.

I think the attraction we all have to Charles over Frank is the depth of his character, and the levels at which he makes us think. Case in point, when he and BJ save that kid during the sniper attack, Charles reveals his curiosity/fear about what lies beyond, and the source of his curiosity/fear. I don't think before this episode we knew he did at one time have a brother. I always kind of wondered what the "accident" was.

While reminiscing the "Sherman...T...Potter" quote with my wife I remembered the ep where Klinger tries to take apart the PA system and all the people are sleepless that night. Hysterical portrayals of each character: Margaret with her rump roasting, Potter with the sleeping pill so totally out of it, Charles doing taxes, BJ festering about the handyman, but Hawkeye is noticably without his own subplot.

I leave you to your weekend surfing with the following random quote/song:

"You're the tops, you're the tower of Pisa!"
Anyone know the source?

As long as we're on such a roll, another favorite Charles episode is when Hawkeye and BJ have a war with him about who can come up with the most outlandish anecdotes from their life. It's obvious the former two are bluffing and Charles is telling the truth, the coup de grace being that he once dated Audrey Hepburn and has a picture to prove it. "When will you two learn that your fantasies cannot compete with my real life?"

"You're The Top" -Words and music by Cole Porter. Sung by Hawkeye during the "pranks" episode in which he lost the bet as to whether or not BJ could fool him. An ending I saw coming from a mile away.

Much appreciation for all of the Charles love out there, especially as he was one of the few characters who didn't completely grate during the final few seasons. He was so self-possessed and supremely confident that when a crack did show in the facade, it was truly affecting.

As for the rest during this time? Yes, BJ, you miss your wife and your daughter probably won't recognize you. How about you shave the fugly moustache so you don't scare the crap out of her once you come home? Potter, we know your wife's a saint and that you're too old for this. Klinger, either put the dress back on or stop pretending to be interesting on your own. Mulchahy, put down the cross and step away from the closet. Margaret, we no longer associate you with Frank. Which is really too bad, as that was the last time you were funny.

And above and beyond all else, I repeat like a mantra:

Shut UP, Hawkeye.

Hmmmmm Eris...why don't you come out of your shell a little and tell us how you *really* feel! :-)

It sounds like you are not much of a mash fan anyway after the casting changes. Know what I do when I don't like a show? I change the channel! ;-0

I just started watching MASH again, I started watching when I was 10 and saw all the episodes several times during my teens. It's interesting to rewatch the show now as a 35 year old. When I started watching I loved Hawkeyeand laughed at Frank. Now I find that I can't stand early Hawkeye - all his drinking and womanizing really grate on me. I feel sorry for Frank and have begun to regard him as a mentally fragile outsider who was harrassed by his "comrades" until he had a breakdown. But I've really come to appreciate Charles in my maturity. I love the complexity of his character. He wasn't stereotyped as the Evil Rich Guy. And David Ogden Steirs (I can't bring myself to use his initials) was such a good actor. Someone upthread mentioned the episode where the schoolchild sends him a leaf, and the way he looked at that leaf conveyed so much, it was just beautiful. I haven't seen that scene in 20 years, and I can still picture it.

My favourite Winchesterism is from his first episode: "I do one thing at a time, I do it very well, and then I move on". Whenever life gets crazy, there's a little Charles that sits on my shoulder and repeats that line like a mantra.

My favorite Winchester line:

"One, I don't sweat, I perspire. And two, I don't perspire."

And I go to TWoP and snark on the show. You know, different approaches for different people. There's a pleasure to be had in watching a truly bad show if you know you'll have the opportunity to make fun of it later.

Coincidentally, the "Pranks" episode was on last night.

As far as the cast changes? I preferred Henry to Potter, but liked Potter okay, so no big deal. Preferred Trapper to BJ, but didn't mind BJ till the fugstache. Hated Margaret once she became "one of the guys" rather than an adversary/foil, but that was a character change rather than a casting one. Disliked the Klinger push (especially without the gimmick) once Radar took off...didn't really care about Radar much, but I did think that he added a necessary element to the show that they never recovered. And as stated, I preferred Charles to Frank.

One of my favorite "Charles" lines comes out of my mouth unexpectedly every so often when someone tries to cajole me into doing something:

"First, you cannot afford 'my price.' Second, what the hell are you talking about?!"

Some of my favorite eps include those where Potter was in command, but Burns was still around. Potter knew the guy was a dunce and a little man, and it showed in his treatment of his "second-in-command."

Some men have garbage thrust on them...others are born to it. Major, the job is yours.

Alan Alda will be joining West Wing this season.

I too liked the way Potter treated Burns. Frank was too full of himself, and I enjoy it whenever anyone brings him down a little.

Edited to fix link.

Oh, Potter vs. Burns was always great. Much love to Henry, but he never knew how to apply a good old-fashioned military smackdown no matter how out of line Frank got. Potter could put him in his place with a well-timed "Horse puckey".

Alda on the West Wing? Cool. Once M*A*S*H* had been off of the air for a few years, I found myself somewhat less annoyed by his appearance on my screen. In fact, I quite enjoyed him in Woody Allen's Everyone Says I Love You. So...I wish him luck. Too bad he's joining during the liftoff from the ramp. Glad he's earning a paycheck, though.

"Frank Burns eats worms", heh, I love that line and still always sign any cards I send to one of my friends with it! I love Frank!

I love the early seasons the most! Henry, Frank, Trapper, Klinger in drag, early Radar. The. Best. Later Hawkeye...ugh. Shut. Up.

One of the best Frank lines was when BJ first arrived in camp...


"what's up Ferret Face?"

LOL...*grinning at work here*

A movie in which David Ogden Stiers had a role. (The part was to small to really say he "co-starred.") Alda played the father of a young woman who was engaged to Stier's character's son. It was fun seeing them together. I think they've done some other things together since then, too, though I can't remember what they were off the top of my head. More Woody Allen stuff, maybe? I know Alda has appeared in other Allen movies, most notably "Manhattan Murder Mystery."

No clue....sorry, a closet MASH junkie at heart. Thank God Hallmark is covering it though sporadically, until I can afford the DVD's.

No brainy or witty quotes to reference tonight so...until that happens...adieu! :-)

My favorite Alan Alda movie is Crimes and Misdemeanors, where he basically plays himself, ie a pompous comic actor who never seems to shut up. Love the scene where he's surprised that an interview is over, and Woody responds, "I used up ten reels on your first question!"

I loved the episode where the guys are supposed to be teaching some of the Koreans enough English to help in post-op. "I will get the doctor," etc. At the tag end of the show, Frank tries to tell Hawkeye off, at which point Hawkeye wheels around and points to the Koreans in a "hit it!" gesture, and they all say, in unison, "You tell 'im, Ferret-Face!"

Some of the Burns scenes are indeed hysterical. Another one happens during a cold freeze when Burns comes across Igor burning some soft of wood (a chair perhaps), and the following dialogue ensues:

Burns: Where did you get that wood private?
Igor: My sister sent it from home sir.
Burns: *clueless look* Oh.....okay.

The cold freeze episodes had some good bits in them. I like the scene where Radar is moving more people into the swamp during a cold freeze, and Trapper asks what's going on:

Radar: "New housing arrangements by order of Corporal O'Reilly, housing officer!"
(Trapper takes Radar's clipboard and throws it into the stove)
Trapper: "By order of Captain McIntyre, Heating Officer!"

My favorite Frank moment.

"Can't you see you're just being paranoid?"
"I'm not paranoid!"
"And when exactly did you see them burying this bomb?"
"When I was checking my toothpaste for explosives."

As much of a schmuck Frank Burns was, the ep where he gets all tough after Margaret dumps him for Penobscott, he does become a little more human and you feel more sorry for him when he reveals that he has neer been liked that much, and how his father was kind of an ass to him (I am sure all guys can relate to a certain extent with this sentiment, albeit some more than others...). This is also the ONE episode I know of where he, Hawkeye, and BJ share a laugh at Margaret's expense in the tag ending:

Margaret: You mean the little red-head that just arrived?
Frank: Yes, that's the one.
Margaret: She's a little young for you, isn't she Major Burns?
Frank: Oh I don't know...I thought a little YOUTH might be nice for a change!

Augh! *charlie brown style*

Did I just kill the thread? Two days with no comments? Where'd everybody go?

I always regretted the fact that the writers never gave Frank the chance to become human like they did with Charles. Larry Linville's totally committed performance of Frank's ugly side was wonderful, but I would have liked to have seen him somewhat redeemed.

On another note, my favorite Winchester episode was the Christmas one with the chocolate. The moment at the end, when Klinger brings him the leftovers of the dinner (after finding out Charles had secretly given the chocolate, only to have it sold on the black market) is wonderful.

I agree pretty much with your list of very-late-M*A*S*H replies to characters in the post at the top of page 17 (I haven't figured out how to quote posts on TwoP). However, I've got a worthy addition to your mantra on Hawkeye:

"Shut up, Hawkeye".... until you regain your old wit!

Oh, totally. But that wasn't going to happen. Alda had decided by then that the audience was utterly unable to appreciate the slightly more subtle commentary of the earlier seasons, and instead moved to insert a glaringly obvious "lesson" in each episode. The earlier episodes were touching and funny. The later ones? Not so much. To me, the final show was the inevitable maudlin climax to his self-absorption as a director, and scene-hogging as the star of the show. In fact, the reason that many of the original cast members left can be directly or indirectly tied to his increasing influence over the show's direction. In his last interview (that I know of), Linville specifically cited the show getting "messagey" as a reason for his desire to move on.

Now, as for quotes: Copy the line you want to quote by highlighting it. Hit the "reply" button. Paste the material in the text window. Highlight it again. Hit the "quote" button while the text is still highlighted. It should put it in a quote box once you hit "Add Reply". You can test it out here.

I prefer the later seasons with BJ rather than Trapper but I think my favorite episode is "Sometimes You Hear the Bullet" where Hawkeye's writer friend gets killed. Ron Howard is in it also. It includes one of Henry's greatest lines: "All I know is what they taught me in command school. Rule #1 Sometimes young kids die. Rule #2 Doctors can't change Rule #1." That might not be verbatim but that line always makes me cry.

That is a great episode, hjmugillecuty--when I see that's coming on, I always watch it. And you were pretty much right about the quote, too, but my favorite part of that scene is what follows your quote. Once Henry says his line, Hawkeye looks at him and says "You really believe that?" And Henry replies in this small, strained voice "I don't know." It's a great performance from the both of them.

As for humanizing Frank Burns, which someone upthread mentioned, I think it's just a matter of the era of the show. Frank left before everyone got redeemed and was one big happy family, more or less. If he'd been around at the end, he would have been shown as noble, self-sacrificing, whatever, just like the rest of them.

Sometimes You Hear the Bullet was the first episode to really provide a perfect combination of funny and dramatic material.

Alan Alda's ego could be seen as early as season four with the episode Hawkeye, which is just what the title implies; a virtual one man show for Alda as Hawkeye gets a concussion in a jeep crash and holes up with a Korean family who doesn't speak English, chatting nonstop to keep himself awake. No other regular cast members appear in the episode; even when Radar picks Hawkeye up at the end he's never heard or seen. Though Alda didn't write or direct it, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that he came up with the story.

This was also a great example of a moment where Henry wasn't portrayed as a bumbling buffoon, as seemed to happen too often. As I mentioned upthread, I like the episodes where he's shown more like a someone who's not regular Army, and is just trying to do his best in the middle of a chaotic situation.

I completely agree, BewareThePhog, but I further think that the Henry/buffoon stuff comes logically from two places--one, from McLean Stevenson's interpretation of the role, which admittedly was probably strongly influenced by me second point, which is that the Col. Blake from the movie version was, more or less, buffoonish. But I do agree with you that I liked the Henry that was just a regular guy from Bloomington, IL, in over his head and surrounded by talented doctors who were terrible soldiers.

I'm a little more forgiving of Alan Alda than a lot of you are because of his post M*A*S*H* roles, particularly, of all things, his work on the PBS science documentary series, Scientific American Frontiers. You certainly see Alda the egoist on it, but you also see Alda in awe of scientists, and every time I think of a question I want him to ask, he asks it, which is all I want out of a host of shows like this. I do see what you mean about what happened to him and to Hawkeye during the run of the series, though.

I can't look at M*A*S*H* too objectively--I used to watch it with my grandfather, who was a surgeon on a real-life MASH unit in World War II, and documented his experience prolificly in his letters to my then-grade-school-aged mother and to my grandmother, who he wrote every. single. day. about his surgical experiences. According to him, in the Big One, they used to fly the patients in strapped to the wings of the airplanes, since they didn't have helicopters then! Otherwise, it seems to have rung true.

What a cool story about your grandpa, DC--and what an incredible record of his wartime experiences your family must have. I had several uncles, one grandfather, and lots of older relatives in the various wars over the last century, but no one kept anything in the way of letters, memorabilia, etc. All that history, gone. Count yourself lucky! :)

Oh, and for the record, I'm pretty tolerant of the Alda-induced preachiness...yeah, some of it gets ham-handed, but I don't really mind it too much. And it's a great point, too, DC, about his work on Scientific American Frontiers, because it really is true. I've read that it (as well as his pro-feminism ideals, which aren't as noticeable now, but were big news in the 70s) stems from the fact that he had childhood polio, and he credits his cure to a woman researcher...I wish I knew her name, but that's all I recall.

Oh, I quite liked Alda in some of his non-M*A*S*H* stuff, both before and after the show. In particular, I thought that he did a great job in Woody Allen's Everyone Says I Love You. But on the show? Too much egotism, too much preachiness (Even if I did agree with the points), too much control given to him over the direction of the show itself.

And D.C., I completely understand what you're saying.

MASH was very much appointment television for our family during the seventies and eighties in its first run and we still enjoy it today. As an earlier poster mentioned, one of the political causes Alda strongly supported in the seventies was feminism. It was a controversial issue at the time and certainly not widely addressed or endorsed in televisionland (look at Mike Stivic in All in the Family for a not unusual left/liberal view of women's rights in the seventies).
Given Alda's (somewhat hamfisted) preachiness, I was always disappointed that except for a passing reference in a late series episode with Mariette Hartley, it was never an issue that was addressed on the show. Certainly the 4077th itself by its very nature couldn't have strong, self reliant women. However, it would have been interesting and instructive to see some ongoing secondary or tertiary female characters (e.g. Rosie, the women who ran the orphanages and medical missions) as sturdy, capable independent beings who were treated as equals.

Eris Rising, I completely agree with this. It became all about "Hawkeye" and even though a gazillion and a half people watched it, I still think it wasn't the best and could have been better.

Eegah, oh, ugh! Did I ever absolutely HATE this episode. And clearly, full of yourself much, Alan? (Like you said, he might not have wrote/directed it, but I bet he did have a hand in the concept of it.)

D.C., I am so jealous! How cool!! I LOVE all things WWII and love hearing stuff like this. It saddens me that soon all the remaining Vets will be gone and their stories/experiences will be too. I bet those letters are so fabulous to read. Thanks for sharing that!

The early seasons will always be my most favorite ones. I just enjoy all the characters so much more. Nothing is funnier than early Klinger and Radar.

Bleagh. IMO, this scene often come across as,

Margeret: You see? Now you're getting an idea of just how Frank felt when he was in charge here and all you could was harass him. Always on his case, always criticizing his commad, never giving him a moment of rest or respect. You thought it was all just so easy. Well now you know--it's not easy, and Frank was only doing the best job that he knew how.

Errr...no....Frank was never about being a good leader. He was always about power and the abuse thereof.

--->



Speacking of the classes, remember the episode with the three foreign observers(?) and one of them, an English chap, engages Charles in a Boor War and he says something like (after revealing that it wasn't his villa but rather his father's employer's villa),

'"You were so convinced that only people with money and breeding could have taste and class. . .Well you sir have just been out-classed by the son of a bloody butler!'"

:D


Useful Lines:

BJ: I feel like such a fool.
Hawkeye: Go with the feeling.
(after BJ buys a gutted watch)


Colonel Blake: Ho-lee-y Cow!
(after Hawkeye and Trapper are arrested and released)

One of my fave episodes was the April Fools one when Potter set up the docs with his buddy coming in as a hard-ass. "What do you want, a medal?" He fakes a heart attack.

What really irritated me about the later episodes is that they wrote all the character dialogue the same, meaning they all spoke in puns constantly. It was unnerving.

Locally, they just showed the time capsule episode (Hawkeye holding the teddy bear and saying "For all the boys who came over here and left as men" so dramatically is one of the series' best unintentionally funny moments). This means that we'll be getting "Goodbye, Farewell, and Amen" soon, which in turn means that they'll start showing the earlier, funnier episodes after that. Sad thing? I'm going to miss rolling my eyes at the "serious" later episodes. TWoP has had a serious effect.

So to make up for this, I'll watch the final episode and snark like there's no tomorrow.

Earlier, folks had mentioned naming their animals or stuffed animals after characters. We had a kitten named "B.J. Honeycatt." My dad, a true M*A*S*H fan, named him. He died of feline leukemia when I was 8. :(

Also, it was mentioned that Aaron Sorkin named the shrinks in West Wing Sidney, the same as in M*A*S*H. It turns out the Psychiatrist in the West Wing 2.10 episode "Noel" is named "Stanley." Close, but not quite...

We've been watching the first six seasons and wearing out the DVD's. My wife and I are not yet thirty, so we're really too young to have seen (and appreciated) the show in its first run. We've seen it in syndication and re-runs, of course. But it wasn't until the DVD incarnations that I have come to appreciate the series.

(edit to add) Also, the theme song is haunting. "Suicide is Painless..." We've watched so much M*A*S*H lately, that my son who is just a few months old will always stop what he's doing and turn to the TV to watch the opening sequence when he hears those first four notes on the guitar. He watches with rapt attention until the end of the song, then goes back to playing with whatever had his attention before.

We don't do cable TV or satellite-- we spend all our money on Television Series on DVD. ST:TNG, ST:TOS, Stargate, West Wing, SportsNight and Northern Exposure to name a few. When my wife insisted that we start getting M*A*S*H I thought she was nuts. I was not that big a fan. But now I realize that it was some of the best writing on television. I'm certain that Aaron Sorkin must have not only watched and enjoyed these episodes as a fan, but it seems to me he studied them.

I've heard it said that if Shakespeare were alive in the 70's and 80's, he would have ended up on the M*A*S*H writing staff.

I was Hawkeye in the quiz. My wife was B.J. Perfect.

I'm only 21 and I love M*A*S*H. I started watching it in college on daytime and late-night reruns. It really was a good show, much better than many of the ones on today. Radar is my favourite character by far, even though he didn't really look quite as young as he was supposed to. I suppose that's what war will do to you. Has anyone heard of his spin off show W*A*L*T*E*R ? I was looking him up on imdb.com and it seems in 1984 there was a season of this show with Radar joining the police force. It's strange because he left M*A*S*H in 1979. MAybe they had to wait till the original series was over. Strange they didn't call it R*A*D*A*R.

I happened to catch about 5 minutes of the original movie on TV and couldn't believe it was supposed to be the same show. The fooball scene was so weird. I'm glad we didn't see stuff like that on the show.

M*A*S*H was on all the time in Australia when I was a kid. Then it came on for a while in my 20s and now it is coming back again.

I also remember that the shows became more preachy and serious towards the end. I attributed it to the number of Vietnam veterans who were coming to terms with their war and starting to speak up about the horror, I think this may have influenced the show to be less flippant and concentrate on more serious aspects. It's just a theory.

I know this is late, but I took the quiz and I was most like Captain 'Trapper' John McIntyre. Heh. He was one of my favorite characters. I also think he was quite sexy...*ducks*.

How sadly ironic that Alan Alda is now on TWW...I remember Hawkeye was a very verbal character; I can only imagine what AA could do w/a good Sorkin script


...took the quiz...I'm Hawkeye now, but I have noticed on these things that I can take them several times and get different results (except I always seem to be Hermoine in the Harry (not Sherman) Potter quizzes)

My alternative theory: the show went on too long, and several of its cast-members (particularly Alan Alda) became sanctimonious. The show made its points much better, IMO, when they were couched in humor. Case in point: TVLand's 100 Most Memorable Moments had the M*A*S*H finale at No. 7 or something. I've watched the finale exactly once and remember very little of it, except that it was overlong and overblown. OTOH, the season three finale with the death of Henry Blake is a half-hour gem that I've watched repeatedly.