I don't disagree, but that's why I stated it's what Clark thinks. I certainly don't agree with his decision, but I do understand why he thought it was the best thing to do.

I don't forgive them either - it's like he mind-rapes his best friend, thinks to himself his work is done here so he can go find the next available warm body to hump.

I get that Nois has to SWF Chloe in the Tempest dance to continue on her merry path of being Chloe 2.0, but it makes Clark look like a dickhead of the highest order.

It's crude and crass and just plain disgusting - what, the writers think he's not allowed to worry about her after she's married, he's so awesome that he mind-raped her for her own good so now he deserves his reward in macking on her cuz?

I think it pretty much undermines anything they're trying to say about him growing up, past Lana and past false, rebound relationships like his with Nois. He says he knows how much he lost in Chloe? Not so much that it lasts for more than 1 episode, the BDA jerk.

IA with everyone else. After the events of Abyss... why in the world would Clark kiss Lois? (or near-kiss) He just mindraped his best friend and now he's getting romantically attached to another human. It's a real kiss too. No apparent mind-wipe, no mistletoe... just Clark making a move.

WTH. This is less than a week later per the Abyss timeline. He has never been a rebound-jerk. What possible justification is there for this move other than "MYTHOS DEMANDS A KISS".

Completely flabbergasted. I mean, if I was a Clois fan --- I'd want to know why the sudden move. This is not a true-luv moment at all.

I don't think that Brainiac made a copy of himself. I think that Jor-El got rid of the Brainiac influence by restoring Chloe's memory, hence the black ooze coming out of Chloe's ear. However, Jor-El did warn Clark that Brainiac was unpredictable and I think that came into play when Brainiac turned what was inside of Chloe into an infection that he gave to the fortress. I still think that he needs Doomsday to kidnap Chloe so that he can take control of her. I'm assuming that with the fortress now belonging to Brainiac, he has what he needs to take Chloe over, something that he didn't have prior, IMO. I also think that Davis will be transformed into Doomsday by Brainiac. Something is still needed in order for him to turn into that monster. My guess is that Brainiac will send out some sort of beacon to Davis and he will go to the fortress, turn into Doomsday and then head to the wedding to grab Chloe, killing people in the process.

You'd figure after all the Clana drama and secreths and lieths, Clark would think twice about getting involved with someone who 1) doesn't know his secret 2) can't deal with dating a hero.

I sincerely hope that mind-raping Chloe comes back to bite him in the ass. What a jerk.

Brainiac is the one who mindraped Chloe. If Clark hadn't put himself at risk for Chloe's sake she wouldn't have any memories of him at all.

That still doesn't excuse Clark from making a decision that wasn't his right to make. He took away Chloe choice in keeping memories of his secret.

So should a patient be grateful to the doctor who sews back on 4 fingers but decides they don't need the thumb because it suites him not to do so? Is the doctor not violating the trust of the patient even though the doctor is not the one who cut off the digits in the first place?

Clark allows her to remain the victim of mindrape. He was supposed to fix the problem, not give his blessing. He's like the guy who stands and watches while it happens, doesn't let the rapist kill her, but doesn't end it. Yeah, that is a tad extreme, but he had it in his power to save her, to erase the violation, but he prevents Chloe's salvation. He, in the end, is responsible for why she no longer has those memories. Brainiac is no longer at issue.

Davis has already been transforming though. Probably not to the extent we saw in the trailer, but we saw his face morphing back to normal in "Plastique" and in "Identity" Jimmy mentioned the MF having "bony eyebrows" or whatever. Plus Faora stated that Davis was still evolving. I don't think he'll need to go to the FoS in order to change into the monster we see. It probably just takes time and, considering how this whole thing is very Incredible Hulk, I'm betting anger would help.

Should this imaginary doctor be accused of having cut the fingers off in the first place?

Since it was the doctor's malpractice that is ultimately to blame for the lack of the thumb, the doctor as good as cut it off himself. It's not like Doctor was unable to save it, or forced not to sew it back on, he just didn't fulfull his oath. Maybe he thought it would be for the best. Maybe he feared the thumb might be used to go hitchiking and that the patient would fall in with a axe murderer.

I don't favor saying Clark was responsible for initiating the mind rape, but he is responsible for willfully letting the injuries stand, making him an accomplice after the fact, and held IMO just as guilty.

And if, by not sewing that thumb back on, the doctor prevented some major axe-murderer-involving disaster the patient would otherwise have fallen into, can he be blamed for making that choice? And if said doctor was also affected by not sewing the thumb back on (say the thumb kept haunting him for the rest of his life), can he really be called guilty? For doing something that causes him pain than the patient doesn't even feel anymore?

Oy. This analogy is giving me a headache. ;)

Going back to a post from the previous page:



There's always death. DEATH FIRST

Actually there is another option. No romance at all.

From the Grand Theft thread:



I totally agree, and this is what makes me almost certain this will be corrected, and soon. These are writers who can't always remember the actual canon of the show. Imagine them trying to figure out how to write dialogue for Chloe now. Practically everything that comes out of her mouth will have to be analyzed, like we've been doing: "Okay, wait, would she know that Ollie's Green Arrow? How about Nois-- would Chloe remember the barn door incident, or how she got her job at the Planet? What about all those articles Chloe wrote-- which does she remember, and how much does she remember about them?"

It would be a hellacious job trying to figure all this out and make it seem logical. Furthermore, it would require determining what method Jor-El used to wipe her memory-- are there big holes in her memory, or did he replace real memories with fake ones? Did he erase things that had to do with Clark but that she knew prior to the discovery of his secret, like the symbol on the barn and the symbols in the caves? Or does she still remember things like that, which could eventually lead her back to the secret again? What will happen when other people make reference to events she no longer remembers, or remembers differently?

It just seems to me that every word she says will have to be scrutinized and thought about much too hard. I honestly can't see the writers taking this kind of time and trouble for very long. So personally, I don't expect this mind-wipe to stand for more than a couple of episodes. I think it's just there to keep us debating over the hiatus, personally.

To add: Is the secret a key which will unlock all her memories of Clark, etc. if she re-learns it? Does she have to re-learn everything through old articles and documents? Is everything Clark-related over-written by Davis (by Brainiac)? How much of Brainiac is left in her?

Taking response to Grand Theft

Bringing this from Spoilers:


What if the Bride isn't Chloe? What if Brainiac did separate fully from Chloe but he is the one who is in the body (or made his own). In a mirror of Gemini we see Chloe in the fortress trapped.

I'm all for Brainiac going around looking like Chloe. He/she could be what pushes Davis into become Doomsday.

HoshiReed, I'm actually feeling your spec. So Chloe's consciousness is actually trapped inside of a crystal in the fortress? I can see that and/or Jor-El didn't erase Chloe's memories at all. And Brainiac just trapped Chloe in her own mind and took full control over her instead. I don't think that stepford wife is wholly Chloe. Chloe even without Clark's secret is a driven women, not prone to lazing around on couch for the rest of her life.

It's my belief, that Brainiac already reprogrammed Jor-El from Bloodline and just needed Clark to create the fortress and get Chloe there so one of his avatars could reshape/remake the fortress to gain total control. Jor-El was feeding Clark lines from the start and if in fact it was actually Jor-El why the hell didn't he detect Brainiac spillage from Chloe. In the final Clark/Jor-El discussion, Brainiac had already infiltrated the fortress.

How does this make sense, considering the Jor-El / brainiac conversation at the end of the episode? Jor-El calls out to Clark, we zoom in on the black goop, and Brainiac starts talking. Zoom back to the new black FoS. I don;t see it, but YMMV.

While the Fortress detected Bizarro, Brainiac hasn't been noted by the FOS in the past when he's been there.

I like the wild spec, but think the none psycho AI really was supposed to be Jor-el, now new and improved with less homicidal tendancies.

It didn't detect Brainiac when Clark took him there in Solitude, either. My own personal fanwank is that it simply recognizes Brainiac as another piece of Kryptonian technology as opposed to a threat. It's only once Brainiac interfaces with the Fortress that bad things happen (see Solitude, Vessel, Abyss).

You know what's bugging me about the next ep? That it's a wedding coming on the heels of this massive memory wipe.

Let's say I have this friend. Let's leave alien stuff out of it and say I'm a secret agent. Let's leave possible romance out if it and say she's a girl and I'm a girl and I have this secret identity (like I'm Hanna Montana, but not lame). Now we're close. We're so close that she knows I'm a secret agent. Though we were close before, we became even closer after she found out I routinely foil terrorists and stop assassinations. In fact, almost every (I might even say every) private conversation, private moment, fireside chat over cocoa... they all had to do with my secret agent work. As my friend is a great hacker, I've often utilized her while doing all my agenty things. I've known it's dangerous all along, but I've had this sudden attack of guilt. She's infected with a whosywhatsis she got through helping me. And I have the means to save her because my estranged father is a (WIZARD!) scientist. Not only can he cure her, but he also has this Men In Black type memory wiping device that could take away all of her memories. Now he could cure her without wiping her memories. It's not necessary. But I want to keep her safe. Of course, I could tell her I don't want her gettign involved anymore, but I don't think she'd listen. She did say she wouldn't trade having helped me save the world... for the world, actually. But she just doesn't know what she's talking about and I'm the big secret agent, so it really is my choice what she knows and doesn't.

Now, I've obviously just played God a little. But my intentions were so noble and that makes it okay, though I am curious as to what she'll remember when she thinks back on all those times we've shared these past four years. Maybe she'll just think we were talking about clothes. And all those times we saved the world we were... shopping. Yeah.

Oh, by the way, she's getting married in a matter of days. Now, leaving unresolved romance out of it, leaving things "humans shouldn't know" out of it, should I let this friend take a huge step in her life while she wasn't all there?

I don't think so. Clark played God. It may be a benevolent god he was playing, but he still played God. And now she's taking a huge step forward without all the pieces.

The fact that this wedding is happening on the heels of something so drastic only gives fuel to people, like me, who think Chimmy is a big mistake. Even long after this series is over, I'll think this wedding shouldn't have happened. I guess I can thank PS3 for justifying that with Abyss.

I never understood why people find this a bad thing. For instance, Doctor Who makes sweeping choices that affect the universe all the time and I've always enjoyed it. (Some even think he is written to be a "God" metaphor in the first place). Why is a character playing "God" a problem?

Well, basically because then you're leaving every major decision up to one person, and no one makes the right decisions all the time. Not only that, they can make the wrong decisions because they think it's right, as we saw with Clark in Abyss. If you start letting someone "play God" you're opening everyone else up for a loss of freedom and choice in their own lives, and I don't really think that's a good thing. Yes, Clark can do things no one else can, but having input from other people can only help in his decision making process.

Time Lord trumps fast strong dude who shoots lasers out of his eyes. At least with The Doctor we assume he has a vast store of knowledge and experience to call upon when he does his playing god moments.

Clark is a 21 year old with daddy issues.

Makes sense to me.

Well, there were the echo-y "My son"s. That could point to it being some sort of programmed recording. Is it possible that Brainiac infected the FoS and sort of "reprogrammed" it (either in Abyss, or Bloodline, or before), then took over at the end of "Abyss"?

I think that this would fall under the heading of how unpredictable Brainiac really is. My guess is that Brainiac has a way to shield himself when inside the fortress so Jor-El can't detect him. Brainiac is a computer after all and the fortress is basically the same thing. It's just one computer, Brainiac, tricking another(Jor-El/fortress), IMO.

I agree - I can't believe that Clark and Lois would kiss so soon after Abyss, with all the drama about people who are too close to him getting hurt, etc. (Even though in the epi right before saying that Lois NOT knowing his secret almost got her killed! UGH!)

I'm not particularly a shipper, but I try to root for the couple that is presented to me - Clana is previous seasons (before it got too annoying), Chlark, Alicia, etc, so I've to get on board with Clois, but it's been difficult. I've just starting kind of sort of seeing it sometime in the future, but an actual kiss (not a dream sequence of Lois') is a little too hard to swallow. I guess I'll have to chalk it up to Clark being sad about seeing Lana, looking for some love, and Lois being overly affected by all the wedding emotion, or something like that. But really, the whole Clois thing has been so clunky, it makes me sad.

Is there ANY remote chance that the kiss is in Nois' daydreams?

Could be a Clark nightmare. After all Clark had one in Promise.

I think Jor-El just rebooted from an older version and neglected his Norton Antivirus updates.

Seriously, I think Brainiac is very adaptable and figured out how to dodge whatever method of eradication Jor-El used on him. Which probably means Chloe is still infected as well (I can't imagine Jor-El did such a great job cleaning her hard disc if he managed to get infected himself doing it and didn't even realize it.)

Considering the crystal was already corrupt, possibly by Brainiac it is possible to conclude that Jor-El was from the beginning of the Episode was tampered with to... Gain Clark's trust to ensure he brought Chloe to the fortress, considering Jor-El merely stated he is able to restore her memory but nothing about ridding Brainiac from Chloe.

I've never invested in any Clark ship, in fact being a LnC fan I am predisposed to like Clois but the writers have been so lazy in developing their romance, they've barely bothered at all. Just because it ICONIC doesn't mean the transition to friendly to potential lovers can be ignored. As a couple they needed to be explored, show us why we should ship THIS Lois and Clark.

What makes it worse is that they can do it, Chloe and Davis I completely buy and that's not just the anti Chlimmy in me speaking. Chemistry is relative so I wont cite that but they are given moments to connect as people. Lois and Clark get guest stars telling them how fated they are.

I didn't really take that to mean Jor-El was calling out the Clark, I interpreted it as voice modification, kind of like Face Off. "Peach, I can eat a peach for hours." But now that you say it, I can see that as a possible.

I just think more was done in Bloodline than a simple reprogramming to retrieve Clark/Kara from the PZ. If Brainiac's plan is to get Clark to rebuild the fortress and get him to take Chloe there, why not go a step further in his plan to ultimately neutralize Chloe? YMMV

Also forgot the Fortress didn't detect Brainiac S5.

Jor-El was totally off to me from the start. Clark came in ready to be on the defensive and Jor-El was super supportive. Like all his past complaints and disappointments in Clark have been erased/appeased because Clark is now proactive.

I don't know. Overall, it's just fishy to me. Jor-El had to, imo know that Chloe was actively infected with Brainiac if it took a peak inside her mind. But the audience as well as Clark is lead to believe that the memory erasure is the only problem and now that she got some of her memory back, she's now cured, fixed, ready take the plunge. There has to be more to it, outside of Brainiac corrupting the Fortress and redecorating. YMMV



Explained what I was thinking perfectly.

That would be hilarious. Alternatively, when I picture Lois and Clark kissing I keep seeing the scene in "P.S. I Love you" playing through my head when Harry Connick Jr. and Hillary Swank kiss. After building toward it the whole movie they laugh hysterically about how ridiculous it is and she runs full speed back to the hot Scottish guy.

HA! Would be awesome with add bonus of no lingering awkwardness. hee

I rather like the all in her head idea. While they dance, Nois has a daydream about Clark leaning in to kiss her (but in reality Clark is looking over her shoulder at Lana) and she pops out of it or is jolted back to reality once Clark steps back from her having spotted Lana. LOL I would love this. And since 'pathetic' is my new fave word for the day... it would make Nois look utterly and completely pathetic.

Exactly! This is pretty much how I thought they were going to contrive a Clois kiss in this episode. However, after seeing the extended preview, I think it's for real, although editing can be misleading.

Like Chi Latte, I'm a LnC fan, and was looking forward to a naturally developed relationship, since they decided to throw Lois in starting in season 4. But after rewatching old episodes heavy with Clois interaction, they did it better in the past compared to this season.

I think I'll blame the kiss (if it's real) on booze and wedding cake high.

Or the romance haze that usually accompany weddings.

I'm a LnC fan as well. That's why I Chlois. :=)

Me too, big time. I even obsessed as a little kid how to get Lois and Superman from the movies together. I decided she was just going to have to fall for Clark, it was the only way. But now with EDLois doing it, it is all wrong. Probably because well, first of all she's Nois, but then I still have yet to see WHY Lois is now interested in Clark, let alone why she is prepared to hook up at her cuz's wedding (in a barn, sigh. A funky party is one thing, but a wedding? Why oh why couldn't they have at least put up a tent in the Kent's back yard?) Though the question of why she's ready to hook up will be less confusing if it is revealed the Olsen's have an open bar.

Clark is in a significant amount of emotional turmoil right now. In such times, he has been known to resort to Red K in the past.

I'm just saying...

Considering all that was Spoiled about Lana's return seem to me the Clois kiss doesn't add to anything but possibly of Lois wanting to hurt Clark. Afterall Chloom=Clois it seems.

from "Abyss"

SueB, your "Abyss" post terrifies me, if only because I fear I'm going to wake up one day and argue Cnois.



More seriously, the last thing I want is an ambiguous ending. I want clear cut. I would like to think that the show's head game ends soon. In trying to please the three ships, Clana, Chlark, and Clois, I bet they don't make anyone happy.

I kinda thought Jor-El was suspect from the start, too. If Brainiac wanted to infect the Fortress, he would have had to not just convince Clark to rebuild it but also take Chloe there. Clark checked with Jor-El before he took Chloe, and if Brainiac was in control, of course he'd have said, "sure bring her by, I'll fix her right up!" which is exactly what "Jor-El" did. Jor-El's compliance and niceness was strange. Usually he gives Clark a song-and-dance routine about blahblahloveforhumansblah before he throws Clark a bone.


This will annoy me too. I can lose graciously if, in fact, I'm losing, but this on the fence bullshit is maddening. The X-Files tried this with MSR (haven't typed that in a while!). When they finally did hook up, they didn it in Offscreenton, D.C; the NoRoMos were pissed cos they hooked up, and the 'Shippers were pissed cos they didn't get to see it or were even told that they had for years!

****mumbles like Hagrid***** Sorry 'bout that.

It would be par for the series. I'm just opening it up as a speculation based on the money spent on subtleties in Abyss. In their minds they will leave it as (per my spec):
1) Clana was an EPIC romance that like star-crossed lovers was doomed to fail due to the mistakes of youth. They remain close confidants for the rest of their life while recognizing they can't go back to what they had before. There's a spot in Clark's heart for Lana that NO-ONE can replace.
2) Chlark was an EPIC partnership that created the hero and taught him about pure love. emotional intimacy and self-sacrifice. It ends with either a tragedy or a decision that the hero must stand alone and the partnership has to step back so he can fulfill his destiny and she can become a hero herself. There is a spot in Clark's heart for Chloe that NO-ONE can replace.
3) Clois will be the EPIC love of the future that's based on mutual attraction and a playful competitiveness that keeps Superman on his toes forever. Although not explored during the series, the evidence is all in place to support that future. It is also clear that while he loved others, he will stop searching once he has Lois and will stick with her.

See --- Everyone "wins", Everyone "loses". Each can say their "victory" is best based on their value system.

Again... just a speculation. Personally I think it's better than the plastic CLOIS4EVAH answer because it makes it clear that Clois is NOT an unambiguous "Win". Pre-destiny is just not a valid argument and they are out of airspeed and altitude to make a convincing argument IMO (and certainly not along the vector they are on now). They haven't earned the Clois ending and there is nothing they can do to whip it together IMO in the time remaining (even with a S9). 2 years cannot outdo 7.

Maybe that "My son? My son..." was more of a "Psst! Everything I just said is Bullshit. I'm being infected and made to say stuff by this crazy black goo! Don't leave! Come back!... Okay. I'm sorry about the block of ice thing and the dead chick and... stuff. Now will you come back?... Dumbass."

My guess is he takes her to the lair and then we get credits. I don't think they've figured out exactly what he's supposed to do yet so, like with most cliff hangers on the show, they'll just leave it opened.

These episodes have already been filmed. The article was for "Legion" and talked about it being Chloe's honeymoon. If you haven't wondered what exactly Dooms/SW and Chloiac will be up to in the dark!FOS, then I'm happy for you, because I have and my thoughts are not good ones. Dooms' interest in Chloe was sexual, he kidnaps her which gives him the chance to have her.... :(

While I'd like to disagree completely, I have to think back to Bizlana, which frankly, wasn't much different. Not that I think anything sexual will absolutely happen with Chloom, but I can't put it past TPTB, or at least have them leave it ambiguous.

Responding in Spoilers since we can't tag here.