I saw it on YTV. We tape every episode so that we don't miss any.

Schroeder, for those of us fortunate enough to live in Canada, YTV (the Canadian equivalent of Nickelodeon) airs JLU. For some reason, they are able to air episodes before CN (I guess Warner sold the rights separately, with no provision that YTV had to wait for CN to show them. Not that I'm complaining). I think that Stracrossed was alos shown up here befroe it was in the US. It is possible to download episodes, of course, but I believe it violates TWoP policy to link to such sites, so I'll leave it up to you to find them if you are so inclined.

Just wanted to pass along the following information: according to Bruce Timm, who posts over at toonzone on a semi-regular basis, the two part season finale will instead be shown as the season premiere for season 4. To replace these two episodes, we'll be getting two episodes originally planned to open season 4. According to him there shouldn't be any continuity issues, and they are switching because the finale isn't actually done yet.

So on the negative side, no Terry and the rest of the future JLU for a while.
On the positive side, the first episode is a GA//Black Canary/Wildcat teamup and the second is supposed to feature Mr. Miracle and the Flash, among others.

Wow, how interesting. As long as they air them, I don't care. Don't care. DON'T CARE!!!

Saw an ad...it starts up again Saturday at 8:30 pm. I'm hoping for the best...but the whole "trading Hawgirl for dozens of heroes" thing has been a letdown. At best, you gotta make excuses. Example: when Amazo returned, the first line of defense was the powerhouses and a gazillion Javelins. What was the last line? Flash, Wonder Woman, Steel, Ice, and a few other B-listers. Lex Luthor's life is on the line...and that's the last line of defense? Weak.

Wonder Woman may very well be the most physically powerful person in the DCU. She could have been the last line of defense all on her own.

Word, Ravenwing. Big Word.

Wonder Woman, as she is written now, is second only to Superman in power. And I think she's a better fighter, being amazon trained and all.

So yeah...I wouldn't complain if Wonder Woman was my last line of defense.

Definitely disappointed that we won't get the real season 3 finale. I'm also quite confused as to how the season 4 openers will be finished ahead of the season 3 finales. Then again, I guess that since seasons 3 and 4 will be composed of 26 episodes total, they're probably producing it as one single season.



Wait, huh?? Did I misread that, or will Flash really be featured in an episode? Kinda sad that I'm more excited about the return of Flash than I am in the guest heroes. Which isn't to say that I'm not drooling over the appearances of Black Canary and Huntress, but it's just been so long since we've seen the Flash!

He didn't actually name the Flash, but he did say that a noticeably MIA character would be showing up in the Mr. Miracle episode. I don't think there's anybody else who fits that description now that Hawkgirl's shown up.

She's totally a better fighter, and she can beat up Gods, so she may very well be more powerful then Superman. Generally, the three physically most powerful heroes in the DCU are Superman, Captain Marvel, and Wonder Woman. Despite being the biggest name, Superman is probably the least powerful. At the very least, Superman has two distinct weaknesses: magic and kryptonite. Now, K isn't a problem since Superman has all of it except one ring which Batman possesses, but the magic thing is a big issue, especially since Capain Marvel is a magical creature and Wonder Woman has access to magical weapons. And Wonder Woman can kick Captain Marvel's ass -- Shazam's Thunderbolts gives him the Strength of Hercules, while the Olympian gods gave Wonder Woman the strength of Gaea, that is, the strength of the earth itself. So, while there may be othe characters more powerful then Diana if you include ones with magical or energy projection abilities, nobody throws a harder punch.

I think that For the Man Who Has Everything confirms that on the TV show Superman is at the least physically stronger than WW.

And TV Tome seems to think that we won't be getting those Season 4 eps until next June.

WW is a more skilled fighter, but Supes has a big edge in durability (there's a reason that WW has to block those bullets with her bracelets while Clark just lets them bounce off his chest). As for the 'beating gods' thing ... Supes smacks gods around too. Darkseid, for example, is the king of a whole planet of gods.


If you want to get technical, Cap has the Strength of Hercules augmented by the "Power of Zeus" which puts him well beyond Herc and into Supes/WW territory.

There's really no point in arguing strength, the 'DC party line' seems to be that Supes is top dog, WW is a close # 2, and Cap is a close # 3.

Of course Batman could probably find some way to beat them all with a paper clip and a dog biscuit.

Perfect Xero, you've been reading Bats' files? Dude, you're so dead...

If you really want to get technical, JLU, and JL before it, are outside official DC canon anyway.

And might I add one big hefty "duh" to that. The DCAU has never been in the comics canon, though official DC canon has pinched a few things from the animated serieseseses' on ocassion (Robin III's costume, Harley Quinn, Mr. Freeze, etc.). As far as the fighting food chain is concerned, I always figured Big Blue was the at the top, in terms of brute fighting strength, with WW in 2nd/3rd, both in strength and prowess. Really, I don't think anyone's giving our man J'onn enough credit, as his near-to-equal-Superman's strength and equal-to-superior-WW's fighting ability, along with his extra abilities to shape-shift and mind-read, could turn both Supes and WW into hero paste with not too much difficulty.

As long as Batman stayed away. Batman can take all of 'em. Just because he rocks that much. >grins< Fangirl much? Naw. :D

So i've read some of the rumors, but will the Flash actually appear w/speaking lines? Does anyone know what the deal this past season was with him, was Rosenbaum too busy w/Smallville to do any episodes this season, i'm sorry but I find the Flash a hell of a lot more interesting and likeable than Jon Stewart, plus hey he is the comic relief for this show, or he was supposed to be. I get the whole broadning of the DCU for a better show, but I'm sorry w/a few rare episodes, this season blew big time. You would think that the writers would see fan reaction and just pretend this last season was just a big try out season for a new character to join the ranks of the JL, and to me I think Supergirl and Green Arrow are perfect to join in the ranks. Supergirl more or less as an apprentice type thing, kind of how Kitty was to the X-Men in the 80's, the young point of view. But I miss the Flash..........

And why wouldn't you want to pinch Ms. Harley Quinn from the series? Girlfriend is fabulous! She seriously needs to show up on JLU sometime soon.

I miss her!

[smallvoice]And Flash for that matter.[/smallvoice]

ETA: Just saw the commerical for the new eps. Hawkgirl smash Grundy!

Okay, before anybody else says it, I guess these guys on tonight's episode were an analog for the old Superfriends "creations", those that didn't appear in the books of the old series: Apache Chief, Samurai, Black Vulcan, and Zan and Jayna. The only guy they missed was El Dorado.

Dunno if they've appeared in "real" DC continuity tho.

I wonder if Cadmus is behind Supergirl's clone? Chubba the Hut is one chick you don't want to mess with, rich boy. Who was her VA? She sounded awfully familiar.

Right on! I new episode is on tonight? Gonna record it. *sigh* I'm such a geek.

It's CCH Pounder. Also of note is that Maxwell Lord was voiced by Tim Matheson (ex-VP John Hoynes on the West Wing). I guess he can't get away from shifty characters who are always wearing suits.

For what it's worth, Amanda Waller was the creator of the Suicide Squad in the comics, and the Squad she mentions in the episode may indeed be the Suicide Sqaud. Makes me wonder just how many super-powered allies they've recruited/made.

Zan(?) trying to engage aquaman in physical combat after the whole water thing didn't work was fricking hilarious. Guy got smacked down.

I just couldn't get the Birdman version of these characters out of my head while I was watching this episode. Heh, "In my pants." Killer stuff.

Thanks, cambridgeguy. The credits on my TV are too teeny to be read.



Downpour/Zan was a right eejit, though. Pretty funny how he was so concerned with the tweens.



Hee! Me neither. I also remember that short where Zan posed as Wonder Woman's bath water. I kept waiting for a shout out, but no such luck.

I don't think the Ultimen have appeared in DC comics continuity, but if the popularity of this episode on the 'net is any indication, they might get a mini-series of their own in the near future. I'd pick up the book, especially if they could fit in a revamped El Dorado.

"Ultimatum" was full of neat little nods to older cartoons as well as the DC universe. The Ultimen headquarters atop the skyscraper looked exactly like the Superfriends' Hall of Justice. One of the Ultimen refers to Batman as "old chum". The main JLU heroes were Superman, Batman, Aquaman, and Wonder Woman. (Robin is too busy with the Teen Titans, I assume.) The villians were Bizarro and Giganta, and they were trying to free Gorilla Grodd from prison.

For anyone keeping track here are the analogues:

Wind Dragon = Samurai

Longshadow = Apache Chief

Juice = Black Vulcan

Wonder Twins = Downpour and Shifter

In addition to Ultimen clones, the Cadmus lab also housed a large ravenous dog. I wonder if that was a nod to Wonder Dog.

Wasn't the best episode, but it definately wasn't the worst. Nice use of "Super Friends" archetypes without going for total parody. Bonus for using old-school Legion of Doom mainstays Giganta and Bizarro. However, I hate Bizarro as a straight-up bad guy. He's just a fucked-up clone of Superman who screws up everything, and that should be enough. Oh, and his voice sucks.

From what I understand, Amanda Waller is one of the stone-cold baddest bitches in the DCU. And here, she knows Batman's ID. That'll give him a chill.

the fresh maker: Given than Hamilton was close to Galetea/Power Girl, that might not be far off. Hell, maybe down the line, we'll get Superboy. What? Not like he'll be a Teen Titan or anything.

Awwwww....Long Shadow's smitten. Poor lil horny clone boy. And that is a nice alternative to "Apache Chief"...friendlier than "Maintou Raven," anyway.

Question...when Juice did anything, did anybody else go, "In my pants!" Or is it me?

Oh, check out the end teaser...Shining Knight? Vigilante? Crimson Avenger? Looks like the Seven Soliders of Victory.

ETA: The Wonder Twins were in Extreme Justice. As for the others:

Samurai: Red Tornado
Black Vulcan: Black Lightning
Apache Chief: Maintou Raven

That would be nice, especially since Timm (I think) mentioned that a pretty significant arc developed over seasons 3 and 4. And Super Girl, Green Arrow, and The Question will team up again. Yay, The Question with his snarky pop singin' self!

Oh great episode! Amanda Waller, the bitch has made it into cartoon land and I love it. Yeah, our dog was a nod to Wonder Dog. Now we just need El Dorado, Marvin and Wendi and we're set. I agree, Bizzaro isn't what he use to be, DC Comics version is more fun, but you can never go wrong with Giganta.

I enjoyed the episode, but I think it may have something to do with being deprived for so long. Also they included Maxwell Lord and Amanda Waller, which just rocks!

So next week is the Atom centered episode penned by Warren Ellis I think. I can't wait.

ETA: Harvey Birdman did sort of taint this episode for me (I was in the "In my pants" camp whenever Juice was onscreen).

Also, my two favorite lines had to be Aquaman's "Do they look like fish?" or Bats' "Mine are bigger."

Yep. Loved Batman's "Mine are bigger." line. I'm not familiar with this Waller bitch. I like where they're going with the "Government approved" superheroes. Esp nowadays.
I really wished these were hour long shows.

Ultimatum really highlighted the weaknesses of the JLU concept for me--more than any other comic-book adaptation to date, it really is necessary to be familiar with the DCU to truly enjoy JLU. While it was nice to see Waller and Lord--characters which I really enjoy and wish were used more in the regular DCU--and to hear references to Cadmus and The Squad, I imagine most of those references went over the head of most viewers, making an already mediocre episode

Also, the episode really highlights the fact that the writers aren't used to serial writing yet. The Ultimen have supposedly been in action for months now, yet we've never seen them? Gee, I'd sure like to know where they were when Mordru attacked Metropolis, or when Ivo's robot returned.

I realize that the roster used was probably meant to mirror that of the Superfriends, but it didn't help the episode. Batman and Wonder Woman are waaaay too overused as it is, and Aquaman seemed out of place. How about seeing some of the new heroes? You can't develop them if you don't use them.

Okay, so Waller is lower-echelon conspirator? Something tells me this conspiracy, if it's unraveled at all, will either end in outer space, with The Patriots (Metal Gear Solid 2), or being very ridiculous.

I agree w/Ian here, if they're going to set up a back story where the Ultimen have been around we should have at least seen them or heard of them, such as a monitor showing them at some point in the watchtower. And why was Aquaman there, it made no sense really. I get the Superfriends analogy, but there should have been an actual point to his presence. I get the part about him being there in the beginning, but the fact he kept hanging out w/the league when we know for a fact from past episodes that he wants nothing to do w/the league at all. So it just made no sense. And this episode is mediocre actually, i'm not liking this season much as i've state in previous posts, they need to get back to a core league, seven or eight, i don't care just get this show back to what it used to be, a quality show.

Actually, I think the argument could be made that the Ultimen's apparent popularity could have been because they were the new kids on the block, as opposed to the stodgy old adults in the JLA. (Fads are like that: fresh new things are in!) Why should we have seen them before? There's no real indication as to how much time has passed between Initiation and Ultimatum. As for Aquaman, I assume his attitude towards the League has been gradually softening - he's willing to work with them, at least - and he's still a surly bastard!

The half-hour format with the larger cast has grown on me more than I expected it to, not least of all because I'm really enjoying the ongoing subplot of the League vs. the government/Military Industrial Complex. It tickles me to see all these non-powered characters from DC continuity involved in the "conspiracy"; so far, we've had Prof. Hamilton, Waller, Lord, General Eiling (he's in the next episode) and (probably) Luthor. Also, as we discover in the next ep, it's not completely one-sided: the JL shows that the government may well have good reason to be nervous about their little club.

But the best part about the upcoming Atom episode is (and I'm not kidding about this): Wonder Woman tucks the little guy into her cleavage!

Apache Chief predates Manitou Raven by a good 25 years. AC wasn't really modeled on any "real" super-hero.

I thought it was a good ep, and I especially liked that they properly portrayed Aquaman as one of the most powerful heroes in the DCU.

Awww, how can you like those better than "Rich boy"? Perfect delivery by Ms. Pounder. I had a feeling she was gonna know Bats' real identity and was waiting for some sort of acknowledgment. It was done better than I had hoped for. Very, very cool.

True. And Manitou Raven seems to be an actual shaman. Apache Chief's mystic abilities appeared to be more limited.

Black Vulcan was more or less based on Tony Isabella's Black Lightning. Samurai's wind powers were borrowed from Red Tornado. And as for El Dorado, he doesn't seem to have an analogous DC character.

Ultimen was possibly one of the weakest eps of this entire season. This whole season has been grossly off-par with their half-hour eps but this truly took it to a new low.

JLU was always a big step behind, writing wise, from the Batman/Superman/Beyond cartoons that predated its continuity. But this latest season has seen the worst kinds of cameo-pandering and "bring in a guest-star for its own sake not because we can make a good storyline out of it". There haven't been this many ridiculous appearances by stars since Static Shock.


Yes, the entire ep was one great big Superfriends allusion. But it suffered greatly from many things. First of all, the filler villains. Bizarro, the lava creatures, all people with no actual part of the storyline but are just there to make us watch the superheroes being super. Takes a lot out of the storyline.

Speaking of which, why can the writers not come up with anything original? This storyline was an a near-complete rip of the Batman Beyond ep "Heroes" and the JLA comic storyline with the Ultramarines. The essential plot points were all derived. And the govt. conspiracy? Way too contrived and it does not seem to be moving anywhere besides the govt. attempting to make its own superheroes. Can the writers come up with a storyline that is at least 10% non-cliched?

But there is one good point. Amanda Waller was voiced by CCH Pounder.

I thought that this one started well, though that may be because I haven't had any new JL for a couple of months. Wasn't a big fan of the solution to the problem. Conscience strikes again. Yay.

Though the part with Waller was pretty cool.



I liked Aquaman's "King of the seas, remember?" I love it when he's snarky.

Onslaught, I completely agree.

I got my copy of Wizard in the mail...Mattel is making JLU characters, including...and I don't know where this comes from...Starman. Green Arrow, Dr. Fate, Amazo, Elongated Man, Atom...and Starman. Seriously, I don't see how that happens. No word on a Mikkal Tomas variant, though.

ETA for Rooster: There have been figures of Jack and Ted Knight. The one I mention is from JLU...which would be Prince Gavyn. Two-to-one says that if he gets a story on the show, it'll be boring. I got his run in Adventure Comics, and it wasn't much to write home about.

Is it the Jack Knight Starman? Or one of his costumed relatives?

Haven't we seen Will Payton in a background shot? For some reason I'm thinking yes, but I don't know for sure.

I agree that CCH Pounder rocked as Amanda Waller. But why was Bizarro in this episode? Didn't he die in DC Animated continuity?

I think the show indicated that the Ultimen had been around for about a year. That's long enough that there should have been a previous mention of them on JLU to set up this episode, as Ian and Cypher21 mentioned. Also, the Ultimen aren't quite the new kids on the block because the Justice League totally revamped its membership during this time period.



Or, they could have developed Aquaman so he didn't seem out of place. They could have shown us how his attitude has changed over time instead of skipping ahead to the point where his attitude had changed.

I realize there are reasons why the showrunners want to emphasize the core three (Supes, Bats, WW). But I find it odd that the veteran JL members are going on missions with each other instead of teaming up with rookies (as GL did in the first JLU episode). I'm not saying this would necessarily improve the show, since the one other time they tried this (WW with Hawk and Dove) wasn't a great episode.

Eh? One of the better episodes of the season, though that's not saying much. But they get points for the government conspiracy plot and not being another 'comedy' episode.

Oh, and Supes and Bats are kinda jerks when other heroes don't just bow to their will. At least that's consistent with their previous characterization.

I know everyone else has made the Justice Friends connection, but thematically the Ultimen felt more like a rift on Marvel's Ultimates. A team of government sponsored, media friendly, PR machine heroes.

Superman's portrayal this episode was the worst mis-characterization ever on this show. His embittered comments towards the Ultimen, referring to them as "corny" and whatever. Those aren't characteristic of Superman. He is anything but the negativistic person they showed in the beginning parts of this ep.

Batman's personality is way too cynical. He was able to be portrayed even in cartoons such as StaticShock as being critical but in a constructive manner. In JLU especially 2nd season they seem to highlight way too much all his sarcastic, mightier-than-thou qualities and not why the other superheroes tolerate his behavior. To continue the previous post, comparing the BTAS-Superman cartoons to the JLU incarnations: in the old cartoons, he was gruff and abrupt but still respectful. Here he is just plain rude, sullen and arrogant. The villains and bad guys talk more respectfully to the heroes than he does.


Oh and anyone know why they had to change the superheroes from Black Vulcan, Samurai, Apache Chief and the Wonder Twins? It's because those superheroes are licensed by Hanna-Barbera unlike the other SuperFriends. That is the same reason why on HarveyBirdman:Attorney at Law, you won't find any other superfriends besides them. Because the others are licensed by DC. Even though the other heroes like Supes and Aquaman get mentioned on the show, they never actually appear.

He didn't die, but he was banished to another planet. For what it's worth, in STAS Bizarro wasn't evil, just a bit misguided and easy to manipulate. As for how he got back, who knows? Like Superman, he can't do interstellar travel without some sort of spacecraft, so lets assume a wizard did it.

that only works in Xena and Gargoyles. Here we have to assume aliens did it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... Superman is a dick.

Anyways, I liked this episode. I just hope they expand on the whole government conspiracy/Project Cadmus thing rather than just have more episodes with the 'mysterious superpowered clone who works for the government' format. If done well, this could make for a really interesting story arc.

Very true, and I think they might but it seems this storyline only pops up every other episode or such. But the writers do have to be comended for their use of backstory, especially going back to STAS, in regards w/the Supergirl clone and the use of Hamilton. The writers could have just shown us a flashback of Supergirl fighting some criminal, would either be Metallo or Luthor due to Kryptonite, and getting hurt to where she bleeds or creating some whole new scientist. So they do get props for using backstory elements, now if they can include something from TNBA i would be all giddy w/excitement.

Well and how about because those characters' names were completely insulting and demeaning? No writer in his/her right mind would name characters like that nowadays unless they wanted some major protesting on their hands. The whole PC thing can sometimes go too far but in this case, I very much agree with it. Black Vulcan? Give me a freaking break...

I was going to ask how Wonder Twins could possibly be insulting, and then I remembered that the Olsen Twins no longer wanted to be referred to as such.

Anyway, more news on the DVD:
http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/newsitem.cfm?NewsID=2556

Umm... definitely not buying it. Aside from the season premiere, which I thought was okay at best, the other two episodes are my least favorite so far.

Well I agree somewhat. But in the case of Black Vulcan, he is more or less a re-worked version of Tony Isabella's Black Lightning.

I guess by today's politically correct standards, having a black superhero with the word 'black' in their name would be frowned upon. But back in the 70's when Black Lightning was created, the 'Black Power' movement was at it's zenith, and using the word black in a name or title was considered a positive thing.